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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    When Toyota/Honda/Datsun(Nissan) were plain junk in the 60's and 70's. I mention this in other forums and some just can't believe these companies could put out such bad quality vehicles. I believe things started to change for Toyota/Honda in the late 70's early 80's. They took the quality vs quantity route and came out big on top. I believe the down sizing of both GM and Ford will prove to be a huge winner for both of these companies. It is already starting to show for Ford with the Fusion/Edge/Escape/Taurus/Fiesta and the soon to be released Explorer and Focus. GM has the Malibu, Traverse and the Equinox that are showing and selling well. It soon will release the Cruse and the Volt. With GM and Ford now taking the small car market seriously I see the Civic and the Corolla loosing its top spots in the next 3 - 5 years.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    When Toyota/Honda/Datsun(Nissan) were plain junk in the 60's and 70's.

    I don't agree. Would you really have rather had a Chevy Vega than a Datsun 510? Or even a Toyota Corolla? Or do you want the Ford Pinto instead?
  • bj02176bj02176 Member Posts: 115
    I had a 1971 Datsun 510 in the seventies, my first car, it was okay. On rainy days it did not accerate that great.Subsequent Datsun's didn't move me as well. I prefer any modern us or foreign vehicles as a giant leap forward.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I don't agree with you. I had a 1973 Toyota Corona. Had to have an alignment about every other month because just rubbing a curb would knock it out of alignment. Wouldn't run with the air on unless idle was set really high and if you didn't have the air on you were racing the engine at idle. Took it to the dealer several times and they finally gave up and said it was just the nature of the underpowered engine. Other problems too. I didn't buy another Japanese car for over 20 years after that experience cause it was that bad.
  • deerlake7deerlake7 Member Posts: 176
    When I saw the '73 Corona reference, I couldn't refrain from a comment. I "married" into one of those (my wife purchased just before we got married). Besides the problems you mentioned, every six months the pistons in the front disc brakes had to be replaced because water would seep into them, rust and the brakes would not fully release, the car wouldn't start below 30 F (tough in Minn) and when I dumped it, every dealer asked if I had my valve job yet.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    edited August 2010
    We bought a Corona in '75 & kept it for almost 6 years. During that time, our total outlays for repairs amounted to $45: $20 to replace a blown fuse & $25 to clean out dead leaves that had clogged the A/C vents.

    We got rid of the car because it bored us & replaced it with an Audi 5000. Now that was an automotive horror. I didn't buy another German car for 20 years.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't agree with you. I had a 1973 Toyota Corona. Had to have an alignment about every other month because just rubbing a curb would knock it out of alignment. Wouldn't run with the air on unless idle was set really high and if you didn't have the air on you were racing the engine at idle. Took it to the dealer several times and they finally gave up and said it was just the nature of the underpowered engine. Other problems too. I didn't buy another Japanese car for over 20 years after that experience cause it was that bad.

    Cars in general were a lot worse in those days. My friend bought a new 1974 Vega and it rusted through to holes in 2 years. This is in hot dry Southern California. IMHO that is much worse than needing frequent alignments. Then of course his engine corroded through at 55K miles. And let's not forget Pintos which killed their occupants when rear-ended.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited August 2010
    Well I did say there were other problems than just alignments and another poster added even more problems he had with the same car so please don't trivialize my experience by selectively quoting.

    I actually had a 1975 Pinto that I bought used with about 50k on it in 1978. It hit 150k miles and about the only thing needed during the time I owned it was a new clutch and that was probably my fault cause I drove the crap out of it. Never got rear ended so I'm still here even though I agree that the gas tank problem was a huge black eye for Ford.....similar to what Toyota is going through now. It was actually a great car from a driver's aspect and was a tough little bugger.

    Vega is really not a good example of the average American made cars in those days but it is a good example of a bad American made car. There were plenty of cars that were just fine and I had a bunch of them. My favorite was a 1971 Pontiac LeMans with a 350 that was just the nicest driving/riding car you could want and very, very dependable. It's pretty common knowledge that the Japanese imports of that time frame were just not ready for prime time. I would seriously question stories of great Japanese imports during that time period.

    I've pretty much owned Japanese manufacturers for the past 15 years as they really came into their own during the late eighties and early nineties and I decided to try them again and liked them. Now the pendulum is swinging somewhat toward the Koreans and Ford Motor. If the auto industry was stagnant and they didn't try to gain market share from each other there would be no improvement. So the fact that auto manufacturers change positions just goes to show that competition really does work.

    It's easy to pot shot the past and pick out the Vegas and Pintos of the era and exclude the literally hundreds of well made Amercians cars during the time. While the newly minted Japanese imports were pretty well known to be crap across the board during that time. The Japanese made huge improvements and the Americans sat fat and happy and their product suffered. Hence, the rise of Toyota, Honda and Nissan and the demise of most of American Motors(Jeep remains), Plymouth, Olds, Pontiac, Saturn and Mercury. I probably missed some but you get the point.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the '75 Corona was a newer design than '73 if my memory serves. At that time, Toyota was improving in leaps and bounds with every generation. The '75 Corolla was a huge leap over the earlier design, for example. (I had a '76 and it had a piniol seal problem, but otherwise was bulletproof.) Kind of like Hyundai over the past 15 years--huge strides with every new generation of cars.

    But Coronas and Corollas aren't mid-sized sedans, are they... :blush:
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    But Coronas and Corollas aren't mid-sized sedans, are they...

    The Corolla certainly isn't, but the Camry is, & the Corona was its immediate predecessor.

    The Corona's last year was 1982 & the Camry's 1st year was 1983, so the Camry was clearly intended to replace the Corona.

    I don't think that any of the Japanese cars available in the U.S. market during the middle & late 1970s would satisfy today's definition of a mid-sized sedan - not even the Mark II, which was the largest sedan that Toyota exported to the U.S. back then.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I had a new 80 Corolla SW and while it drove well,it was not very economical.My 97 Chrysler Town and Country LXi got better mileage.The Corolla typically got about 20 MPG hwy.It also practically disintegrated from rust in about 4 years.It was a very base model, and I still remember that its price was $6000 exactly.It had no power equipment and the only option was the auto tranny.Toyotas and all other cars have come a long ways since then.Rarely do you see a "rust bucket". :D
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    According to the EPA definition, the Camry did not achieve "midsize" status until the 1992 model year. I was not able to find anything else from Toyota that achieved midsize class before then, by that definition...I might have missed something, though.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The Corona's last year was 1982

    Not true. I bought a 12 pack of Corona in the store just the other day! :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    It's easy to pot shot the past and pick out the Vegas and Pintos of the era and exclude the literally hundreds of well made Amercians cars during the time. While the newly minted Japanese imports were pretty well known to be crap across the board during that time. The Japanese made huge improvements and the Americans sat fat and happy and their product suffered. Hence, the rise of Toyota, Honda and Nissan and the demise of most of American Motors(Jeep remains), Plymouth, Olds, Pontiac, Saturn and Mercury. I probably missed some but you get the point.

    The reason I point out the Vega and Pinto is that those were the cars directly competing with the Corollas and 510s. The bigger US cars might have been good, but the Japanese vehicles didn't cover that size at that time. So you have to use Pinto/Vega to compare apples to apples. Perhaps the more correct way to say it is that the larger US cars were better, but the smaller cars Japanese vs. US were all crappy, and the US makes were major crap at that time as well.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That'd be a midsize pack (12, not 6, not 24) of Corona, then.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Good work with the topic tie-in there, jeffy!

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  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I wish you hadn't posted that. I've got a 6-pack of Coronas in my refrigerator that I can't touch for another week because of medication that I'm taking.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    That'd be a midsize pack (12, not 6, not 24) of Corona, then.

    Good one!
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    In case anyone is interested some updates on the 2011 Optima:

    http://forums.speedarena.com/showthread.php?5001280-Edmunds-gets-a-2011-Kia-Opti- ma-and-Forte-4-door&dr_log=-1&linkout=http%3A//blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2010- /08/2011-kia-optima-and-2011-kia-forte-5-door-drop-by-edmundscom.html

    Highlights:

    - Due by the end of this year
    - Priced to come in under the Sonata
    - UVO (Ford Sync like system) is due "later in the model year"

    A very short youtube of it being driven on a highway, at least you get to see it in motion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrDw_XNrdBk

    Hopefully this image isnt too large:

    image
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Very interesting test drive article proclaiming that Mazda will bring a diesel Mazda6 for 2012 MY with about 300 ft/lb of torgue and 43 mpg hwy. Here's a link.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/green/reviews/1008_2012_mazda_6_diesel_prototype/in- dex.html
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,543
    Love that new Optima--except for the sucky blind spot in the rear...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Sorta has a taurush look to it with that side vent, but those wheels are butt ugly, no they are baboon butt ugly.
  • jliles528jliles528 Member Posts: 16
    edited August 2010
    Those pics of the Optima look gorgeous, apart from the wheels.

    I've been car shopping the last few weeks to replace my 2008 Honda Accord EX-L that's going to be coming off lease soon (I should mention that this is the third Honda in a row that I have leased). I went to my local Honda dealer this past weekend to take a look at the 2011 Accords. I managed to dodge the salespeople and stroll to the back of the lot where I found a few, including another EX-L (without navigation).

    Looking at that car and the sticker, I notice the differences between this vehicle and mine are:

    The grille and rear of the car were redesigned with an ugly stick.
    Console buttons were shifted around a bit.
    It now has bluetooth.
    There's a power passenger seat.

    For that, they want a little over $28,000 MSRP including destination. Good luck with that. For that MSRP and destination, I can get a Sonata Limited with a 6 speed transmission (as opposed to Honda's 5), better gas mileage, push button start, a nav system, backup camera, Homelink, turn signals on the mirrors, heated rear seats, rear vents, a bigger trunk, a better sound system, stock fog lights, a more generous warranty, and a car with (to me) superior styling. Plus the same bluetooth capabilities, leather, sunroof, heated front seats, and auto climate control as the Honda. The only thing the Honda gets me that's not in the Sonata is...a power passenger seat. Not that that's bad but, really, I'm willing to sacrifice to get everything else. ;)

    Even if you acknowledge that nobody pays MSRP for cars, any difference in bargaining is still not going to be enough to justify choosing the Honda over the Hyundai. Plus, for leasers, Hyundai has higher residuals than Honda right now.

    I would not want to be a Honda salesman right now. If you'd asked me a few years ago if I'd ever consider a Hyundai or a Kia, I'd say probably not. Now those two are on my short list for my next car. The value is pretty incredible.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    I saw a Jaguar yesterday and it reminded me of the Kia. Some good news on the wheels, which apparently are very polarizing. I've had people tell me they love those wheels, and others obviously hate em. According to this article you will have a choice on the 18's!

    Autoweek article

    "The 2011 model features dramatic new styling with a sweeping chrome arch, Kia's Tiger front grille design and a choice of four wheel sets, including two 18-inch options."

    Hopefully the other option is the ones on this K5:

    image
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yes! on the wheels. I wish some more solid info was available as to when the Optimas will arrive dealerships as well as the date of the turbo introduction. I wish our government could keep secrets as well as these auto manufacturers. :sick:

    All the mags and sites say is "this fall" and "later this year". I think they are all just repeating each other and really have no better guess than we do on these forums.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Plus, for leasers, Hyundai has higher residuals than Honda right now.

    I find that shocking. What are they?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    m6user-

    I read that article yesterday. That is pretty impressive.

    They also tested the new SKY-G 2.0L as well, but in Euro form. The US will get a 2.0L and 2.5L SKY-G and the 2.2L SKY-D.

    The 2.0L SKY-G will debut in the 2012 Mazda3 (which I have already seen), and put down about 156hp and get 30mpg city / 39mpg hwy.

    I'm guessing in 2012 / 2013 we will see the 2.2L SKY-D and 2.5L SKY-G for the Mazda6. I can't wait!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I saw some residual numbers from ALG that put the '11 Sonata at something like 54% and the Accord at 53% if I recall. Could be off a little but the Sonata came out like 1% higher than the Accord.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Yes it is shocking. Hyundai does have high residual value. I recently traded a 2008 Hyundai Veracruz, and I got what I owed on it, which was roughly $26k. I paid 34k for it, drove it for 2 years, and wind up upside down on the loan. I can truthfully say I was shocked.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Sometimes it's hard to tell exactly what you got for your trade as they may have given you a little more for it to meet your loan balance and gave you a little less off on the new vehicle. Not saying that's the case though.

    Question though, if you got what you owed on your loan, what do you mean that you were "under water on the loan". Usually, that means that you owe more than you recieve for it in trade or sale. Just curious.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    According to Honda's web site, they have an advertised lease on an Accord LX AT for $199/mo with $1,999 down and that is for 36 months / 12,000 miles with a residual value of 58%. MSRP $22,605

    On The Sonata, it leases for $199/ mo for 36 months with $2,399 due at signing and has a lower MSRP of $20,915. They do not disclose the buy out on their web site, but, it's obvious the residual is no where near 58%, more like 52% or 53%.

    Judging by these lease offers, Honda has a better deal based strictly on numbers.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I recently traded a 2008 Hyundai Veracruz, and I got what I owed on it, which was roughly $26k.

    What trim of Veracruz was it?

    2008's are advertised on AutoTrader in my area from $19,000 to $26,000 retail for AWD models. You are saying you got $26K for trade value?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The 2.0L SKY-G will debut in the 2012 Mazda3 (which I have already seen), and put down about 156hp and get 30mpg city / 39mpg hwy.

    Are you sure that's not the MPG for the SKY-D instead?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited September 2010
    I did a google. This was back in February and the announcement made a fairly big splash on many forums.

    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2011-hyundai-sonata-tops-alg-residual-value-in- dex-16518.html

    Maybe Honda is throwing in some money behind the curtains.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Are you sure that's not the MPG for the SKY-D instead?

    Yes, the SKY-G.

    The 2.2L SKY-D will get 31-33 city / 43 highway (173hp / 310 tq) which will be in the Mazda6 and is headed to North America in 2012.

    The Euro 2.0L SKY-G (163hp / 153 tq) engine has returned 31 city / 40 highway, but it has a higher compression ratio of 14:1 and required Premium fuel. The SKY-G 2.0L for North America has reduced compression of 13:1 and runs on Regular.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    See here.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/01/report-prototype-mazda3-with-2-0l-sky-g-engin- e-gets-30-40-mpg/

    The 2.2 D is supposed to get 43 mpg in the Mazda6. Mazda could have some real game changers here. VW has had a stranglehold on buyers that want diesel. Mazda reliability and diesel MPG could really put pressure on VW to get their act together as long as Mazda doesn't price the hell out them.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I saw that too. It is "projected" to have that residual due to it's instant success. Still, people paying more money for a used Hyundai vs a Honda are not a reality just yet.

    When my wholesale guides show me that a Sonata is worth more then an Accord, when comparably equipped, I will believe it.

    But, either way, the Accord has a better lease on it right now because Honda is confident in the residual value. They have a reason to be confident, they have been holding their value for decades. Hyundai still has to prove it.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    As you know, residual is a % of original list. Even comparably equipped I think the Sonata is cheaper to buy in the first place so it would stand to reason that it would still be a little cheaper as a used car. I don't think the 2011 Sonatas are showing up as used cars yet so your prices are on the older models versus the Accords. ALG is forecasting future value, you are looking at present values.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Mazda reliability and diesel MPG could really put pressure on VW to get their act together as long as Mazda doesn't price the hell out them.

    I'm worried about the price too...

    There are a few other factors that set off an alarm in my head too. First, the ultra high compression in an aluminum block that had mass taken away for weight saving purposes. Second, these are entirely brand new engines. There is bound to be a few bugs, regardless of their history of building good cars.

    As big of a Mazda fan as I am, I want to see the final numbers for economy and performance. Afterall, it is a Mazda and they better perform like one!!!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I don't think the 2011 Sonatas are showing up as used cars yet so your prices are on the older models versus the Accords. ALG is forecasting future value, you are looking at present values.

    I know, that is why I mentioned I will have to wait and see what they are worth when a used value is generated for them.

    My point about the leasing is that the Accord is a more expensive car and is leases for less. That means it has a better residual.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, I've been reading some horror stories about the new VW tdi common rail engines and some huge repair bills that are being paid for under warranty. But what about the second time it happens and the car is out of warranty?

    I would be a little leary as well of the new tech. Has Mazda used the same tech for awhile overseas and are these just new derivatives or is this pretty much new tech, new engines?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I would be a little leary as well of the new tech. Has Mazda used the same tech for awhile overseas and are these just new derivatives or is this pretty much new tech, new engines?

    From what I have read, they are completely new designs, developed 100% by Mazda.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Judging by these lease offers, Honda has a better deal based strictly on numbers.

    Isn't the residual (58%) you mention just a result of what Honda is asking you to pay and really has nothing to do with actual third party estimates as to residual value. Couldn't Honda be setting the residual on their lease artificially high to get the monthly payments and down payment down? I'm not that familiar with leasing but get the general idea I think.

    It is the better deal though as you say.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    How much experience has Mazda had with diesel tech?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    An LX-AT is a pretty base model. What is residual on an Accord that matches the features of the Sonata? My guess is all those extra features will result in a lower residual percentage. Just throwing that out for discussion.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I doubt if they will match up very well feature wise until you get to the top of the line like the Sonata Ltd w/nav vs. Accord EX-L w/nav. Then I think the Honda would be priced at least a couple of thou more. Sonata has bluetooth standard on all models which you have to go uplevel in the current Accords to obtain, same with Nav. You can get nav on the GLS in the Sonata if you want. I think you're right.

    ALG is has been around for a long time so I think they know something about forecasting future values. But I'm sure if one digs you could find some mistakes due to events nobody could foresee.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    How much experience has Mazda had with diesel tech?

    They have been building diesel's for years
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Auto manufacturers know how their car will resale better then third party sources do since the manufacturers take them back when the lease is over. For 2010, the Honda Accord was the highest ranked by ALG in the mid-sized segment.

    What I do not understand is how the Sonata is all of a sudden predicted to be worth more then the Accord just because of a flashy design, featured content and improved FE and power. I believe Hyundai has to prove this car is really that good before anyone jumps to conclusions about resale.

    I have been impressed with Hyundai lately, but, again, let's see how their new tech holds up over time. It's only fair.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Higher percent resale does not mean the price would be higher. 54% of $18,000 is still less than 53% of $20,000.

    Basing anything on percent of MSRP may not tell you much anyway. If one car is normally discounted and rebated more than the other, then any comparison of the percent residual based on MSRP would be distorted by this.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But the mfrs are not the only ones who lease cars. ALG is used by banks and other financial institutions when they lease vehicles and therefore they have a vested interest in getting accurate data. Also the mfrs might distort residuals as a "hidden" incentive to get more leases. ALG would not do that. And I'm sure the mfrs use ALG data as wellas their own data.
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