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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    Posting here... posted once in Accord forum, sharing again for wider audience.

    Just bragging about my new Sport 6MT sedan. Bought it this weekend, and it's my first Honda. So far, LOVE it.

    The other top contender was the new Mazda6. Mazda offers a manual in touring trim with some nice options. It's dead sexy. But it doesn't offer quite the same amount of right knee space (I'm 6'3" and sick of leaning my right knee against the center console all the time). My prior car, a 2008 Mazda3, has been pretty reliable (but for the weaksauce AC), and many reviews online placed the Mz6 ahead of the Accord in comparison tests. It also has better fuel economy by a few mpg highway. But the Accord accelerates quicker and sounds better doing it. And the Accord just feels a little better put together and of richer materials inside, if less exciting to look at. The sport's cloth seems very durable, while the Mazda's faux leather was a bit questionable. The texture of the metal and rubber on the stereo knobs and AC vents feels so premium, and the panel gaps are very tight. Little things that add up to a quality feeling, which I have been ignoring for the last six years in my Mazda3 (which I did compare to a Civic at the time). And again, Honda resale value and reliability vs Mazda who despite making some fun cars is struggling financially and sells in much lower numbers. So, I'm a Honda guy at last.

    I was pleased to get a very good deal near invoice pricing, despite the relative rarity of the manual transmission models. Went with new because of cheap financing and frankly the used Accords with under 40K miles on them were dang near as expensive as new ones... Also, impressed with all the content for only a little more money than a base LX. The 18"s and little spoiler (which you cannot see in your own rearview mirror) really dress it up, and the leather wheel and shift knob feel great. They say the sport has a firmer suspension than other trims. I didn't drive any others, but this feels just right for a daily commute. Planted but not harsh in the least. Quiet, which surprised me because I always heard that Hondas had a lot of wind and road noise. The phone integration and customizable features are very slick, and I love the rearview camera as this is a much bigger car than I'm used to parking. Back seat is cavernous, my three kids fit just fine (now that we've grown out of those enormous booster seats), so we can take the car on some longer trips instead of taking the Suburban all the time. As long as we don't need a lot of luggage, we'll save a lot of gas, and keep some miles off the old truck.

    It had to be a manual, but I decided to give Kia Optima a fair shake based on the value play. Could have had a loaded EX for about the same money. But decided the Accord's sweet engine and gearbox, ride/handling, build quality, and future resale value was worth trading for leather and sunroof. (Who wants to be driving a used Kia in 8 years?) Also test drove the Altima (CVT only, but surprisingly responsive), and it was very comfortable, but looks a little awkward to me. Didn't bother driving the Fusion or Camry because I sat in everything at the auto show and there were only four with acceptable leg room. The Accord is by far the most refined car I've ever owned, and I simply cannot see the need for a "luxury" brand car these days given how nice and fully-featured this thing is.

    So, while I enjoyed the Mazda culture and was looking forward to having a new 6 and being different and better looking than everyone else, Honda really impressed me. The more time I spend staring at it, the more I appreciate the design.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    Congrats on your new Accord Sport 6MT! It sounds like you love it & you'll still love it years from now when it still drives like new.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Have you created some makeshift ways to store items in the cabin of your car? A reporter would like to hear about your solutions. Please contact pr@edmunds.com by July 6, 2013.

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    I need something edgier than an Accord or Camry and am willing to put up with a few warts.
    Compared to the Fusion, although I know the bones have been around for a few years, everything else seems like it is 10 years old.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Check out the 2014 Mazda6
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    And your fusion is an SEL or a Titanium?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    I have a Titanium with everything except the self parking and Blis package.
    a twin
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    I was at the bank the other day and there were open spaces on either side of me out of 8 or so. When I came back out, a new 6 parked on the other side of someone parked a couple spaces away from me. They chose to avoid a side by side comparison.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    The titanium is very sharp looking.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    I have to say that I am also attracted to the Accord Sport, as well as the Mazda 6. Both were not available when I bought my car at the end of 2011. Then, the Optima EX was arguably the best looking, best optioned, most modern, and highest powered naturally aspirated 4 cylinder sedan on the mid-sized market. 18 months later and I am still smitten by it. I ALWAYS turn and stare at it as I walk into the house, or anywhere else for that matter.

    I especially like the Accord Sport in blue w/ the 18' alloys. I think if Honda offered it with a 6 speed auto and navigation it would be the best selling Accord ever. Then again, by adding an automatic it wouldn't really be a Sport!
    That brings me to the subject of the total abuse and absurd usage of the "sport" and "GT" moniker in the industry. Far too many manufacturers have glued them on the back of decidedly non-sporty cars. Also, don't even get me started on the "S" badge! Everything is an "S". The base model VW Jetta's all have them for example...and VW is the last manufacturer that I thought would use this tactic.

    The Accord and the Mazda 6 deserve their sport badges. I hope a lot more cars will also actually be sporty in the future! :)
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    The Optima is very sharp looking. I almost got a metallic red one. Stopped by Honda for one last look and decided it was the one for me. Slightly down on power, and many fewer features for the same money, but it just felt right. I really wish the Sport manual was available in blue. Only comes in black or grey ("modern steel metallic"... ooh ahh), which look nice, but I would love a real color some day. Mazda6 comes in any color with any trim, if you can find one. If there had been a red touring manual anywhere local, I'd probably be driving it now.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    I swore I saw a 2013 Accord Sport in blue with the 18"s just the other day. Are the they optional on other trim levels?

    I have the metallic red (Spicy Red) one. Sometimes it looks more cherry red, and others it looks more like blood red, which is what I prefer. I have done a few things to it, but not much. 35% tinted windows, mud guards, an Infinity basslink powered sub, OEM rear spoiler, and a K&N filtercharger.

    Here are some pics: http://cski12894.imgur.com/all/
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    (from tsx69 at vtec.net)

    Camry 35,870
    Accord 31,677
    Altima 26,904
    Fusion 24,313
    Malibu 21,288
    Sonata 19,454
    Optima 14,599
    200 12,360
    Passat 10,874
    Avenger 7,582
    Legacy 4,363
    Mazda6 3,840
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Sorry, I'm confused with your post. Who is avoiding a side to side comparison with what? Thanks
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Toyota and Nissan are pulling out all the stops to move cars. The other day I saw a $199/mo for 36 months sign-and-drive lease on the Camry LE. And a $165/month "no money down" (but first payment, T&L down) on the Altima. Yet Honda and Hyundai/Kia (offering some good deals too) are keeping up.

    The mystery is why Mazda can only sell 3800 Mazda6's, given all the critical acclaim the car has received, also quite a bit of advertising. Maybe they'll need to offer more of a discount. Locally I see the cars advertised for near list price. Hard to compete with the other guys who are offering huge discounts and great leases.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    The mystery is why Mazda can only sell 3800 Mazda6's, given all the critical acclaim the car has received, also quite a bit of advertising.

    As one who gave a serious look at the Mazda6 I found two issues: 1) the passenger seat was too low and could not be elevated and 2) regardless of what the "professionals" say, I think the interior is rental car worthy - i.e. cheap, hard plastics.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited July 2013
    When I sat in the new Mazda6 at the auto show and the dealership I was impressed with the quality of the switchgear inside the car and the seat/dash materials were at least as good or better than others in it's class. Every auto review I've read has commented that it was as good or better inside quality wise. It may not look like the starship enterprise like some in the class but it is very functional. So I think your comment about "rental car worthy" is basically your opinion which doesn't jibe with any of the reviews I've read or the opinions of myself and most others.

    As far as the passenger seat, I haven't seen or heard anybody in print or in forums mention it before but I didn't sit in it so I really can't comment on it. It wouldn't shock me though as that is a fairly common complaint on a lot of cars and suvs nowadays. I recently bought a new Acura RDX and that is also a complaint by many in that regard. My wife has gotten used to it and it isn't a problem for us. I don't think that is a major factor in why it hasn't been selling either.

    Why isn't it selling that well? I have no real idea except that Mazda has so fewer dealerships and less advertising money to play with that it will never be a major player. The Legend is another small player and will probably not ever sell in big numbers either. It would be interesting to see the comparison numbers to last year as that would be more telling. The new 6 just came out a couple of months ago and they really only started hitting the ads heavy about a month ago. So I think it may be premature to form any kind of real opinion about how it's going to do.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    I have a 2013 Fusion Titanium FWD.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    edited July 2013
    Among the big players in mid-sized cars, Honda is alone in mostly shunning fleet orders through April.
    FLEET SALES AS PCT. OF TOTAL FLEET SALES AS PCT. OF TOTAL
    Chrysler 200 52% Toyota Camry 20%
    Chevrolet Malibu39% Hyundai Sonata 17%
    Ford Fusion 34% Honda Accord 1%
    Nissan Altima 33%
    Source: R.L. Polk & Co. data analyzed by Edmunds.com
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    A couple of months ago, I was in New York City.
    I saw Altima, Camry and Fusion hybrid models being used a police cars.
    Those are fleet sales.
    Rental companies must do some cost/benefit analysis so they can maximize their profits, so the numbers you posted kind of reflect that.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    On the one hand, Mazda only sold 3,800 Mazda6s last month, which is quite low. On the other hand, that's an increase of 170% compared to the pathetic numbers they posted for the last generation a year ago.

    It is interesting, however, that Toyota sells almost as many Camrys in month as Mazda sells of the 6 in a whole year.

    That's esp. strange since Camry is one of the weakest midsize cars in terms of almost everything, while the Mazda6 is at the top at almost everything except sales.

    For the calendar year, I think the Mazda6 will keep building momentum and may sell c. 50,000.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    That's esp. strange since Camry is one of the weakest midsize cars in terms of almost everything, while the Mazda6 is at the top at almost everything except sales.

    I agree that the Camry is about the weakest overall but I don't think it's that strange that they sell like crazy. I believe most average car buyers(probably not us that post in car forums) buy transportation only. Toyota(and Honda among some others) has a solid reputation as dependable, trouble free and inexpensive to fix coupled with very good resale value. There are many more people that buy cars for that reason then there are that dissect autos the way we do and read every review and test drive a dozen cars before making our decision largely based on "how they drive and handle". They are just buying dependable, fairly inexpensive transportation. Hence the huge numbers.

    Have they had some big recalls? Sure, but they all have. People buying the Fusion today don't think about the exploding Pintos or the Explorers that were rolling over with occupants flying. Things get fixed and people get over it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Sonata also has a low passenger seat. I've seen some owners complain about it. Yet they sell over 200,000 of them a year.

    No, the problem with the Mazda6 sales is not the passenger seat. Nor the interior materials. IMO the Mazda6 has one of the best interiors of today's mid-sized cars. It's not flashy, but beautiful in it's simplicity. It's also clear where the design inspiration came from. (Hint: look at the dashes of the latest high-end BMWs.)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    Do you own a Camry? It seems like you are justifying your opinion based on some old hearsay.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    He's just trying to explain why the Camry still outsells everything else even with its acknowledged weaknesses compared to the competition. And he's correct. People who own Camrys like them and buy new ones, probably without looking at the competition. Same goes for other brands just not in the same numbers.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited July 2013
    I concur with your assessment on the camry. I would suggest it is "average" in just about every area, but that is perhaps a good thing - nothing to rule it out. I'm shopping for a new sedan and wasn't particularly interested in a camry, but will probably buy one. IMO (not the experts, but the one spending his own dollars on the purchase) the camry is the choice almost by default. I've ruled out the accord because of the long history of transmission problems. Additionally, this is the first year for a new CVT and first year for direct inject in the accord. Not worth the risk to me. I have also seen many complaints online about A-pillar wind noise in the 2013 model - another problem in accords SINCE 1976! The Altima has a long history of CVT complaints. No shortage of CVT complaints for the new model, either. The 2013 model has a cheap interior (almost felt-like materials) as well. I drove the sonata (didn't drive the optima, but essentially the same thing) and I found it to be underpowered (just my opinion) and both seats (esp passenger) were too low. I didn't care much for the fusion - no particular reason - it just didn't "feel right". I didn't drive the mazda6, but did check it out. I thought it was basically hard plastics on the dash, door panels, and center console. I also thought it sat low - esp the passenger seat. Not remotely interested in GM (the Malibu has soft touch materials throughout the cabin and has an power passenger seat that elevates) or Chrysler. So for ME, it pretty much narrows it down to camry. Nothing special about the camry - just nothing to rule it out..... once it passes the partial offset crash test, of course (hoping it will do so with the 2014 model). In fact, if the 2013 camry had passed that test I would have already bought it.
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Oh I got it now. You think someone who has a car with the lines of a Mazda6 was embarrassed to park next to your Fusion? Have you read reviews of your car.? Some think it is the best styled mid-size, others think it looks like a bass with it's mouth open. Try to find some negative reviews regarding the Mazda's looks and report back. I probably read over forty reviews and aside from one reviewer from some local paper in California who called it "blah" (hey, I understand someone can have the opinion that it is not attractive, but it certainly isn't "blah"), it's got outstanding review regarding it's looks and has already won two design awards.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    No, I've never owned a Camry but I do own a 10 yr old Tundra that overall has been a very good vehicle. I also own a Mazda and an Acura. I have a good friend that just traded in a 2002 Camry that was almost flawless over 130k miles. My daughter had a 2007 Camry V6 for a company car that she loved. I don't really like the way they drive and not in love with the way they look but they're ok style wise and I don't care for the interiors although they are getting better recently.

    What old hearsay are you talking about? They are still known for very good dependability, reasonable repair/maint costs and good resale value. In fact they still are right there with Honda Accord in resale value even after all the recalls. If you will notice, Honda has had a lot of recalls in the past year as well. Just not as exciting ;) ones.
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Mazda6's problem isn't pricing or lease deals They can be had for under invoice and their money factor and residuals are better than the Accord. It's recognition. With Mazda again now on their own and investments in their CX-5 and Mazda6, they just don't have the marketing muscle necessary to make inroads in the mid-size marketplace. They've spent most of their limited marketing dollars on the CX-5, their first car that they truly designed since the Ford breakup, and their bread and butter Mazda3. Their sales figures compared to their competitors are much better than the Mazda6 compared to its competitors. Plus the previous generation 6, aside from it's handling (which 95% of mid-size buyers don't care about or else the Camry wouldn't lead the class) did not distinguish itself in any way. There's probably a sizable percentage of Camry buyers who don't know that the Accord was redesigned and a huge percentage that have no clue that the Mazda6 was and all that it offers, especially at the higher trim level.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Passat? Particularly in TDI form, it's quite a nice car.

    As for 198 or 274 hp being "underpowered"... okee doke. :surprise:
  • On it's initial first drive of the Mazda 6, Car and Driver did mention that it had a lot of hard black plastic. Also, the center stack/climate control displays were tiny and barely up to date w/ the competition, and that the touch screen was small and had maps that were of the quality of a 5 year old Garmin Nuvi (like my store bought $90 unit).

    The passenger seat in my Optima is too low as well. I do still love the electric blue SX with the pizza-slice rims and the Napa leather seats instead of my barely leather seats, but hey, the EX is a lot of car for $24k. I think the Mazda offers similar value, along with the other players in the mid size field.
  • I don't think there is any Mazda6 sales problem. Current sales represent a huge increase over the previous generation. Mazda6 had formerly taken over the Mitsubishi Galant position as the bottom of the rung, totally ignored midsize, and is now building up nicely from there.

    Remember, the Galant was unable to re-establish a foothold in the fiercely competitive midsize field, and it went away. Mazda6 is holding its own considering the huge recognition factor that each of Camry and Accord and Fusion and Altima and the rest have established.

    Passat is the other one that has been able to pull off a huge turnaround in the face of all the odds in this field. 10,000+ sales per month is huge, compared to the almost non-existent numbers of the previous generation. It wasn't that many years ago that Sonata and Optima were also selling in much smaller numbers.

    Today, the whole field is composed of good cars. There's not a bad apple in the bunch. Why should large numbers of non-enthusiasts suddenly start buying Mazda6s when well-established, well-recognized cars like Accord and Camry (even if Camry is "average") are as good as they are?

    The next name to die will probably be the Avenger. The Legacy is starting to look dowdy and badly needs a total update. However, with the Outback and Forester selling faster than they can make them, Subaru is not lacking for sales.

    There are lots of factors to consider. But bottom line, I think the Mazda6 is doing exactly what Mazda hoped it would do. Over time, they could get even more of a break and move up further in that long list of mid-sizers.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    Wayne21:

    Camry fails IIHS small offset crash test. Accord rated Good. Check out the video on youtube.

    The Accord has not had any transmission troubles for about a decade.

    Have you driven a Camry? Weird and nasty interior imo when I got one as a rental not long ago. Camry also has sloppy handling. Cheaper than Accord? Yes. You get what you pay for in this case.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    Toyota sells about 450,000 Camrys a year, and so selling 20% as fleet and rentals means that you have about 90,000 in that category. Camry is one of the rental Queens. It is pretty easy to get an extended test drive, but only the least discriminating is likely to want one after that. For low price and reliability you can see why a lot of people buy it, but in most other categories--style, safety, performance, mpg, handling, etc--it is below average at this point.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited July 2013
    Camry fails IIHS small offset crash test. Accord rated Good. Check out the video on youtube.

    The Accord has not had any transmission troubles for about a decade.


    The small offset crash test is the only reason I haven't bought a new camry. From the NY Times: Jan 8, 2011 - Honda owners' transmission problems are not a surprise to Dennis Madden, ... the Honda Odyssey and “to a lesser extent, Accord,” so I'm not convinced about Honda transmissions. And I am aware of their previous CVT in their hybrid - an absolute disaster.

    Perhaps it's just an age thing. I'm in my 50s and looking for good, safe, reliable transportation. There is absolutely nothing that stands out in the camry. But in my eyes the camry has no disqualifiers. Having driven many accords (all of which had horrible a-pillar wind noise) it's a pleasure to drive the camry. It doesn't drive like an accord or the (even better steering) Altima, but I'm using it for transportation and where I live the speed limit is 70 with no shortage of police to look for the spirited drivers.

    In 2010 I looked at a crosstour. No wind noise! Not sure why they haven't gotten around to fixing that on the accords after 37 years, but that's not my issue. I would have bought a crosstour, but I found the design to be seriously flawed. Good luck if you plan to carry anything in the back. I wound up buying a venza. Why? After looking at all the competition it was the "default" choice. Nothing special about it, but nothing to disqualify it. The cheap interior (comparable to a yaris, but with ill-fitting dashes) almost did it for me, but compared to what the others were offering it was fine. It's been exactly what I had hoped it would be. Good, reliable (trouble-free), safe transportation.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    edited July 2013
    The wind and road noise on the previous generations of Accord were higher than average. The current Accord is very quiet. You should consider a test drive imo.

    PS I'm 48.

    As you say, Camry is like a cheap Yaris in places. The 2013 Accord is close to an Acura. I almost got an Acura a couple of years ago, and the new Accord is very close. I really like the CVT so far. It is smooth, powerful, and great on gas. Honda put huge R & D into it to make it the best and longest lasting CVT on the market. Car magazines agree that for performance and mpg it is very good. Consumer Reports recommends Accord as their #1 midsize car, and that includes reliability. There are a lot of great choices in midsize--including Optima, Mazda6, Fusion, etc. Perhaps you should look at more of them before writing them all off.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's not a bad apple in the bunch.

    Well, I wouldn't call either the 200 or Avenger competitive in the class. Maybe not "bad", but definitely a notch below the other mid-sizers.

    It's really hard to find a "bad" car of any size these days. Even low-end cars like the Fiesta and Rio are nice cars. OK... maybe the Spark. :P
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Below is a copy and paste from the Car & Driver First Drive article. Don't see anything about hard plastics, in fact they said the materials were upgraded and had soft touch surfaces. I agree, however, that the infotainment/nav system leaves something to be desired from a tech and size aspect but Car & Driver certainly didn't go on about it.

    "Upscale Interior

    As you’d expect, this major makeover extends to the interior, with exceptional rear-seat legroom, upgraded materials, soft-touch surfaces, and a redesigned instrument panel and gauges. There is a new touch screen in the center stack, with voice-command functionality. The system has USB, iPod, and auxiliary jacks, Bluetooth connectivity for phones and digital music, plus a few knobs to make digital late-bloomers comfortable."


    In a subsequent instrumented full test of the Mazda6 below is from the Car & Driver article:

    "Material quality is top-shelf throughout, even in the base trim. Smooth leather wraps the three-spoke steering wheel. The instrument panel is fashioned from soft and tightly grained plastic that put us in the mind of a Benz E-class. Satin-chrome bezels highlight the three gauges and dashboard vents. Spears of what appears to be gray granite—it’s actually plastic—cross through the middle of the dashboard. Mazda’s interior is attractive because of its restraint and execution, and it’s a welcome relief from the overdesigned and button-laden starship command decks in some other mid-size sedans."

    Car & Driver didn't seem to have any complaints about the interior of the 2014 Mazda6 at all.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,067
    Once somebody has their mind made up, no amount of reliability stats over decades will convince them otherwise. I love my new Accord and am very impressed at the level of features and quality it has. But we all have our blind spots. My horrible experience with the 80's era Ford fiesta has caused me to write off Ford forever. Is that fair, especially when I love Mazdas that were part of Ford? No. But I know I'll never own a Ford again.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited July 2013
    Once somebody has their mind made up, no amount of reliability stats over decades will convince them otherwise. I love my new Accord and am very impressed at the level of features and quality it has. But we all have our blind spots. My horrible experience with the 80's era Ford fiesta has caused me to write off Ford forever. Is that fair, especially when I love Mazdas that were part of Ford? No. But I know I'll never own a Ford again.

    Totally concur. I wouldn't even look at a Chrysler or GM product because of my previous experience with them. Have a hard time with Mazdas, too, due to prior experience... although not as bad as Chrysler/GM.
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Yes, we all have our blind spots. That's why I appreciate the blind spot monitoring on the Mazda6. Not only does it give a visible warning on the mirror like other cars, it also chirps once if you turn your signal on with a car in view :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    There's a lot of people that had really bad transmission problems with Hondas that will never buy them again as well. So they are probably missing out on some fine automobiles. Same can be said for people that shun other car makes because of some problem from 10 or 20 years ago. Just about all the carmakers have made great strides in quality. Look at Hyundai/Kia. They literally used to be the laughing stock of cars up until about 10 yrs ago and they really just started to be taken seriously about 5 years ago by most mainstream shoppers. People like to bash Toyotas because they're bland and transportation only, probably most of the bashers haven't even owned one. I'm not looking to buy a Camry but I can certainly understand the appeal to many people. There are certain things about a Camry that people like that can't be found in the Accord like a silky, soft and quiet ride and very smooth drivetrain. Lots of people consider those things very important. Being able to carve a corner.......eh, not so important to them.

    I remember back in 1995 when I was looking for a 4dr sedan and drove the Accord. Whoa, the tranny felt like it had rubber bands in it and it wasn't even a CVT! I ended up with a Maxima which was a great car. Now I have an Acura. If I had let that experience of driving the Accord sour me I might not have even own a Honda product now. Things change and people buy cars for different reasons.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited July 2013
    I would totally disagree with C&D's review. There is no way I would consider cheap, hard shiny plastic "upscale". In fact, I would say that of all the cars I looked at, only the Altima had a cheaper interior than the mazda6.

    I think that sometimes these reviewers go along with what was said by someone else or they change a few words in previous reviews so they don't "stand out". Classic example: for years now, reviewers have been referring to the camry xle as "luxurious". REALLY? Perhaps they should have gotten in one before they printed their review.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    And that is your opinion. I'm just saying that most reviewers and most other people, including me, that I have seen posting do not agree with you. Sometimes an overall look will turn someone off and gives them a certain impression. Maybe that happened with you, maybe not. Beauty of design is in the eye of the beholder but quality materials usually are easier to define.

    I agree that a lot of auto writers say similar things but then again many of them try to find that one thing that other's missed to make their review stand out. If the Mazda6 was truly that cheap looking(which it isn't IMO) I think it would have been duly noted by a number of them.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    I'll stick with my assessment. I think the market works pretty well. The mazda6 is a very attractive car and if the inside matched the outside (with elevated seats) I may just own one.
  • Yes, I should have qualified that statement. However, I do believe both Chrysler products are improved enough to be acceptable to most typical Camry drivers! :P Anyway, the new 200 is almost here, and it will be good. I think Chrysler may kill off the Avenger.

    As for folks who write off a brand forever, based on experience years ago, that is your prerogative. However, that limits your buying choices. Most of these companies are completely different companies than they were 20 years ago. Look at the quality and reliability data.

    Some nameplates within high-scoring brands are not so good, and some within lower scoring brands are great. I bought a VW TDI years ago when VW reliability generally stank. But TDIs were well-rated and fairly bullet-proof. (I still miss that VW from time to time, although I love my Volvo.) And even Toyota is having ongoing struggles with recalls.

    Regardless, there are so many good choices now that I suppose you can write off brands and still get pretty much what you want.
  • huskerfan5huskerfan5 Member Posts: 165
    A career awaits you at factchecker.org :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I do believe both Chrysler products are improved enough to be acceptable to most typical Camry drivers

    I really want to like Chrysler as I think some of their designs are really great and I love most of their interiors. But I think the thing that many people fear, and that would definitely include Camry buyers, is how much time you would have to spend at the dealership for warranty fixes, recalls, etc. And then there is the resale value. Toyota is still light years ahead of Chrysler in resale value. Now if you can get $7+k off sticker on an Avenger and really like the car then one should consider it.
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Member Posts: 9
    Your are certainly entitled to your opinion but if you are implying that the market has validated your opinion, you are way off base. Come on, how many Camry and Accord buyers have even looked at the interior of a Mazda6?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited July 2013
    Not really, maybe just a good memory. I'm very interested in the new Mazda6 and certainly would have recalled a really negative review by Car & Driver re. it's interior.

    Actually since they've increased the size of the newly announced Mazda3 to close to the dimensions(width, interior, wheelbase) of the 1st gen Mazda6 and the snazzy interior shots I've seen, I just may be looking even more closely at that! I'm thinking it may get 41-43mpg hwy with the full skyactiv treatment now.
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