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"How in the world could you possibly know this? You don't. And we know you don't."
How do you know they were then? READ the Challenge will you?? Or are you to afraid of the truth?
We all know that Accords and Camrys cost more. However, since Auras are no dicker and the Camcords aren't, cost is hard to compare in this case.
Well to be perfectly honest with you, the V6 in question is a pushrod design (dated) and gets thrashy and unrefined when pushed. So just to say that the camcords are overpriced on engine alone is not true. I would assume the I4 engines cost just as much or more to engineer as the Aura V6 (3.5L).
Scape, I don't spread misinformation - you do, all the time, every time.
Please go back and read and re-read the Ford Challenge; if you need english comprehension classes, let me know and I will set you up with a tutor. It was a Ford paid event that is used as an advertisment in all publications it features in, its not published as an article by those publications (do you know the difference? Let me explain; an article is what a publication puts out as its or the writer's opinion based on tests they run, and advertisment is a paid write-up that the publication prints so that it can pay its bills and keep printing quality/core articles)
You may want to spin it any way you want, but it was not a comparison test; just a way Ford invented to 'win' since none of the known publications picked the Fusion as a first place finisher in actual comparos. Pure marketing, and I don;t fault them for it, but to tout it as a comparison - that takes the cake.
I thought we had been through this, but you just keep spreading misinformation and misleading people by your deliberately false posts and then calling other people biased.
The Saturn move is a true gutsy move, GM is targeting buyers with samples of Accord and Camry in their dealerships, not passersby. These people could as well pick the Accord/Camry after driving all 3, so to me it reeks great confidence by GM in its product, the Aura.
How did Ford "invent the Fusion to win" in this comparison? Please explain. Car and Driver was there as a neutral party.. are you saying Car and Driver was also in on this?
If anything this is Mud on Car and Drivers face because the public, consumers actually picked something different than what their "experts" actually picked... ya think?.
You don't have to chastise me scape. The post I replied to spoke of the ACCORD, not the Camry.
If that were the case, there wouldn't be 800,000 Accords and Camrys sold this year. There's more to a car than a spec sheet.
Manual A/C, cloth seats. It appears to be something along the lines of an LX Accord, possibly EX 4-cyl. Nice to see a manual tranny!
I told you I'm not getting into this again. I read more than just the comparison.
Why would I wanna do that when I can easily just put them into my minivan and still seat 5 people. Who puts all this junk in their car anyway? Get a truck.
Plus with hatchbacks, you get to have all the stuff you'd normally have in the trunk and out of the way, right there in the car with you. No isolation. No thanks.
Nice photo anyway.
Flat out wrong. I paid x dollars for a Toyota. With 0% financing the OTD cost was x dollars financed, with my payment being x/36.
Its amazing to see you just accept what Ford purports as the truth without a hint of doubt. Again I'd be skeptical if Honda did the same thing, altho they don't need to arrange that kind of stunt.
Kinda like 4 out of 5 doctors prefer X. Sure. When you finally find the 4 out of 5, you can stop your experiment and make your assertion as being true.
Well that's the point... with a hatchback, most of the time I don't need a truck. And since I don't want to pay for a truck nor the insurance for it, I don't have a place to put one, and wouldn't want to drive one unless I absolutely had to, it's great having a value added feature that helps me get more out of a midsize car than those who only have 4 doors and a trunk. To me, given that a hatch can look as good if not better than a sedan, it seems to me that the design of a sedan wastes a lot of space.
Besides, this was not a planned pick up of these chairs. I was running through the office, and noticed all the office people with new chairs and these 3 month old ones sitting in the warehouse. If I didn't grab them then, they'd be gone. I'll post em on Craiglist, make a quick $150, and that's that. But if I drove a sedan, these chairs would be in a dumpster or someone else would have sold them.
Plus with hatchbacks, you get to have all the stuff you'd normally have in the trunk and out of the way, right there in the car with you. No isolation. No thanks.
You must be one of the Sopranos... no worries for me; no smelly dead bodies in my trunk. Either that or you keep too many things in your car. I'd hate to hear what it sounds like when you have to brake suddenly!
It has been my experience that vehicles with 0% financing incentives take a hit in resale value that is equal to or even greater than the savings in finance charges. Think about it, if they have to use heavy incentives to sell a vehicle when new (I'm talking both about big customer cash rebates and 0% financing deals) then the car isn't likely to be in huge demand on the used market, either.
Good show.. yep, hatchbacks are great. Just wish there were more of them available. Seems like them and the station wagon have almost been replaced with SUV's or whatever the latest name is for them. I am hoping they make their return soon. I think they definitely fill a need for the average family, without having to buy or rent other vehicles from time to time.
van
Money has power, doesn't it? As I said earlier, as soon as your Fusion starts winning anything from some organization that is NOT in it for the money, and statistically shows a LONG TERM improvement in the reliability, improves what they put under the hoods - then I take notice.
All I can do is try to turn the lights on in your closet, though, I can't get you out of it.
As far as your touted challenge goes, anything that is 'sponsored' or 'staged' by anybody that would stand to gain by the result is the most obvious opportunity to abuse what otherwise must be true. This kind of thing happens in a lot more than just car tests.
Give me a properly selected population sample (probably out of the Orient) and I can find a whole bunch of 2 pack/day cigarette smokers that happened to all live into their 80s or 90s, thereby 'proving' my contention (I do, after all, work for the American Tobacco Institute) that smoking increases life spans, this after I conveniently ignore the fact that the Marlboro man died of lung cancer a while back. Ridiculous enough?
How about if I worked for Ford and needed to come up with something that I could use to promote our new Fusion?
Well, maybe the first thing I might do is go grab 'a random group' of folks that have been 'Ford families' for years, as you apparently are, wine and dine them, get them appropriate exposure to a good salesman, and then pick three cars that by any definition aren't equal and compare them under specific tests and conditions that are designed to accentuate the virtues of one vs. the others, while again conveniently ignoring those tests that don't.
Ford (or anybody else) is NOT going to spend the money for a comparison like this without KNOWING what the results are at least likely to be.
How far they actually went to insure it, beyond the specific models and test types selected, you and I both don't know. In any case, results of any sort of 'sponsored' event should be given zero creedence. And that would include 'comparisons' run by Honda and Toyota, if and when, they are reduced to such tactics.
I don't know the details though, but one person is not a real good sample!!!
Getting back to the topic, I do know that he stated he and his wife looked at a "lot" of different cars in this class and liked the Camry best, FWIW.
The ol' hatchback isn't what it used to be. It's more of a car with a proper trunk these days, but with a larger cargo capacity and much-larger (and easier, IMO) access.
What I would like to find out more about the "Ford Fusion Challenge" are:
1. What kind of car do those 500 people currently own. What's their history of buying cars.
2. What are their choices before the test
3. What are their choices after the test
4. What type of test track did Ford set up? Is it AWD-biased?
5. Is the 0-60, 40-70, and 1/4-mile tests included? If not, why?
6. I know Ford used V6 Camry and Accord but are they the loaded version? I know the AWD Fusion that Ford used was a loaded one.
Before those information are being released, this "Ford Fusion Challenge" is bathroom, toilet-side entertainment at best...
Accords don't have options, they only have models. VP,LX,SE,EX,EX-L,EX-L-Nav,
LX-V6,SE-V6,EX-V6,EX-V6-Nav,EX-V6-6spd
Since it was a V6 Auto, it is an LXV6,SEV6, or EXV6. I think the difference is sunroof or not, and a few minor things people are unlikely to notice in that type of exposure. The equipment seems pretty comparable. I am not as familiar with Toyota's models and packages.
You want comparisons, look for publications that do this for a living or look at real people buying these cars. CD and RT did not validate this advertisment as their opinion (as they wouldn't with any advertisment in their mags)....CD and RT have a lot of advertisments in their magazines, does that mean each of the advertisments is blessed as an opinion by them?
AGAIN, the biggest problems with the Fusion Challenge (besides not being an objective comparison test) is that the questions were very limited in scope, and the survey respondants were NOT VOTING with their CHECK BOOKS.
Why didn't they include questions on perceived quality? Comfort? Brand reputation / past experiences with the brand? Of course, they limited the survey to the questions they could win (handling with AWD and styling).
The Fusion is a better handling car than the Accord. I also think it is an attractive car. If I had participated in the Fusion challenge, I probably would have voted the same way most of the other participants did. However, ask those same participants to evaluate the cars on ALL of aspects, and choose which one they would BUY for themselves, and suddenly the outcome changes.
Here's the problem - name ONE publication that will take several hundred average everyday buyers and do this type of comparison test. They won't. It cost too much. So all we ever get are opinions from automotive journalists who all have their own individual biases and performance data that the average buyer could usually care less about.
Show me a published comparison test done by a third party that involved hundreds of average, everyday drivers. Never happened - never will.
The only point that should be taken from the Ford Challenge is that the Fusion is competitive with the Camcords when compared head to head by average, everday buyers.
The publicity around the IQS awards should get more people to actually look at the Fusion and other Fords instead of blindly crossing them off the list. We'll see if that translates to a sales increase.
Show me a published comparison test done by a third party that involved hundreds of average, everyday drivers. Never happened - never will."
Why should we assume that the passersby in the advertisment are unbiased folks? You want to talk about hundreds of drivers, well just look at the real byuers - more than 800k per year vote with their wallet for the Camcords, isn't that saying something?
On the Fusion, I have never debated that it is not competitive with the Camcords ot other midsize cars
Akirby - what I doubt, in effect, is that these were 'real' people (or everyday buyers in your words) in the sense that they weren't 'pre-qualified' by Ford in the first place. If it was me establishing the 'rules of engagement', I would sure as hell make sure that was the case. And no, I don't know either way this happened but nor does anybody else, so therefore those 'real' people and their opinions must be taken with a small grain of salt.
In terms of available information of REAL consumer preferences? Well, we do have something about 7 Camcord buyers for every 1 Fusion buyer, don't we? As far as 'crossing any of these cars' off the list, probably not a good idea when any buyer is spending 20 grand or more of his/her hard earned money!
I think they did actually.
This should answer your questions and those by others regarding the Fusion and Aura challenges going on now.
MSN Reliability data also claims the Dodge Neon to be reliable, but everyone that has owned one or known someone that owned one knows otherwise!
If that doesn't tell you it was rigged I don't know what does!!! I don't care what Ford writes about the Challenge. Don't believe everything you read! Consider the source!
My experience is counter to that point.
What reputation does Ford have? Car and Driver might have a small reputation and following as a magazine. But, Ford? They have a BAD reputation at best.
Very true. My wife's car is a good example.
She has a 2000 Dodge Neon. She bought it new, and drives it over 17K miles per year. It has close to 108K miles on it now, and has been rock-solid reliable. Besides a dead battery, it's always started. It's burned out a foglight and tail light, and it's on it's third set of tires, but other than regular maintenance, and a new set of brake pads and rotors, it's been nearly flawless.
The only problem is that her struts in back are shot, and need to be replaced, but since she wants a new car this summer, she's perfectly content on driving on bad struts until then.
There are quite a few models mentioned in the discussion header. Any chance we can inject some new info/comparisons rather than staying on the Fusion/CamCord merry-go-round? All the cool kids are doin' it...
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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As long as I keep the back seats up and don't pile things up beyond the height of these seats, nothing is flying anywhere. When I had to take my mower to get serviced, the Mazda6 has some tie down loops in the cargo area to make sure things weren't rolling around. Plus they have an collapsable organizer that has smaller compartments to keep little things like groceries in its place. Take a look at the pic at the bottom.
Bags of mulch, pine straw, sandy beach towels - nice to have all that stuff stashed away in a trunk.
I always make sure I keep plastic bags in my car so that I'm not making a mess. And even if I had to put something big and dirty back there, I got the cargo mat with raised lips which comes out very easily so I could rinse it off.
Having all this utility that was well thought out was a great bonus to me over just having a fun and comfortable vehicle... seems Mazda really thought through how a bigger space could be used and how to make it more efficient.
Ford admitted in the article you referenced that they discovered that people drove the Fusion and liked those attributes (handling, styling, etc), but still bought something else. So why would they focus only on those attributes? Why emphasize those in the Fusion challenge advertising? Winning those attributes alone aren't enough to overcome Honda and Toyota.
They need to find out why people appreciate those attributes in the Fusion but still keep shopping (as I did). My guess is, if they did collect data on perceived quality and brand experience, they didn't like what they saw.
Ford may be on the right track with the recent quality improvements- however, whether that will translate into better LONG-TERM reliability and higher future resale values remains to be seen.
I am a big fan of second hand furniture (I can't bring myself to drop $2k on contact-paper/veneer over pressboard when I can buy older real wood furniture for much less) and because most private sellers don't have a delivery service, I usually end up with a small utility trailer behind one of the cars. The Subie can tow 2700#s, and that towing capacity is more than the payload capacity of many SUVs, and when I am not towing, I get 30mpg.
I think that is exactly what the opening paragraph tells us. It's pretty obvious why they would not want to publish such data in an ad.
However, I didn't read in it more information about the design or methodology of the surveys.
I doubt the surveys were too complex. Probably 10-20 questions asking the basics.
Anyone who looks at their published results in the ads, mainly the bar graphs, will notice that the Fusion didn't beat the Accord by much in the three categories they tout. Therefore I wonder if those are the only three categories it did win in. Perceived quality and reliability surely lost based on that article and I'd be curious to know what other questions they asked and what the results were.
I'm a Ford guy and always have been so they don't need to convince me that their vehicles are competitive. But ads like the Fusion challenge and whatever they come up with for the latest IQS awards will certainly change some minds and if nothing else, plant a seed. They still need to provide water and sunlight for that seed to really change people's perceptions though.
That link, Baggs32, was a very informative news story. We've owned our 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion for about six months and have never been invited to participate in any survey.
We are extremely satisfied with our purchase. The car has had zero problems, not so much as a single squeak or rattle. The fit and finish are perfect. Our only complaint is in-city gasoline mileage but even that is now approaching the revised EPA estimate of 17 mpg city.
It's pretty obvious that this a forum dominated by Camcord supporters and that is OK, too. A difference of opinion makes the world go 'round. Camry and Accord are No. 1 and No. 2 in sales in the mid-size market but that does not mean that the new Fusion and new Aura are not worthy competitors. They certainly are, in my book.
I think FoMoCo and GM are wise to adopt hood-to-hood advertising methods because smart mid-size sedan buyers should be well-informed before they make a choice.
Furthermore, in about 5 more months the 2008 Accord will blow by all of its competitors.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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You might try renting one from the various rental companies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,