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Comments
Similar mileage, but 40+ horsepower out of less displacement. The Toyota is even more powerful; quite handy when loaded down and merging.
re-read your post 520.
Wrong. What about greater legroom in all rows and more cargo space behind the 3rd row?
Seriously though, most auto reviews do focus on the driver's aspect of the vehicle; something Honda seems to OWN in this segment.
I hated the Honda because of its blind spots. If I need to switch lanes quickly I can glance back in the T&C and see into the blindspot immediately. This was not possible on the Odyssey. It drove me crazy on the test drives.
Wanna see the ultimate blind spot vehicle?? Go sit in Toyotas FJ Cruiser. That vehicle ought to be outlawed.
No, you see the DGC and CTC are the BEST at everything! How silly I am!
(And these same people complain that professional reviews are biased--funny, because it has to be every single one of them since the results are virtually always the same).
Vans are not performance cars, no. I never said they were. I did say that the 3.8 is underperformed, and I believe a 10+ second 0-60 time speaks for itself. The fastest van out there is the Sienna, if that's what you want. I personally prefer the Odyssey's handling and steering so that is why it is my preference.
There's another aspect to this--right now, the 2008 DGC and CTC are not any cheaper than the Sienna, and significantly more expensive than the Odyssey. I am looking at a new 07 Ody EX-L with leather, heated seats, auto climate control, etc, for under $26000. You can't come close to getting a DGC and CTC with those features for that price. Will that change? Probably. But right now, it is what it is.
If people love their Chrysler vans, great. I can see why they may fit some families the best for what they need. I'm just not impressed with the interior quality and the feature content for the money.
When I want a good time I take out my Taurus SHO or the hubbys BMW. But I don't need a SHOdyssey. I want a floating cloud for a minivan. Even loaded down to the max, I never have had any trouble with power on the 3.8L. Has PLENTY. And its not like those few horses more on the Odyssey or Sienna would make THAT much of a difference in a loaded down situation. I don't get what all this is about?
Having 25% more power DOES make a noticeable difference. We had a 2000 Odyssey with 210 hp. My aunt has the new Odyssey with a lot more power. Guess what... it sturggles a lot less when loaded down! Sorry you don't seem to get that, but going from 197hp to ~240-270hp is a BIG deal. There is basically as much power difference in going from a Chrysler Sebring with the bottom rung 2.4L 4-cylinder and the Sebring with the 3.5L top-line V6. A big deal!
No doubt the Odyssey will do the slalom slightly quicker than the T&C. But you really ought to test the T&C again.
I'm not even talking slalom times... I'm talking steering feel. The fact that you desire isolation and floatiness tells me you don't quite get what I mean by a "driver's car." Nothing is wrong with your desire of a soft-riding car.
Underpowered for what? Racing? Towing? Getting to the next red light faster? Not underpowered for every day use, carpooling, shopping, Home Depot runs. Not sure why so many talk about underpowered minivans. My 1997 DGC Sport 3.3L is rated at 158 HP w/ 203 lb-ft. f torque and I've never thought it was underpowered. Of course it's not a sports car or a hemi. So now when I test any of the new vans, it's nice to see more power.
Quit your arrogance of assuming you are the "drivers car man" around here. I like the BMW sportier feel at times, but not when I go on long trip loaded down. I don't want the Japanese feel in a minivan. I want the Cadillac feel in a minivan. I want to relax, not feel the road. There are times I want to feel the road - when they happen I'd hardly get the keys for the minivan no matter how many horses it has or how tight the turning radius.
I'd appreciate you treating me as an adult, first of all. Talking down to me makes you sound like the arrogant one. Not sure what your "drivers car man" comment is supposed to mean, although I'm sure it is meant as a put-down like the first half of your sentence. I try not to insult other posters, so I'll just talk about the vehicles.
There are several people that frequent the boards who prefer a more firm ride to get some sharp steering and less floatiness in a car and are willing to give up having the most supple ride.
I like the BMW sportier feel at times, but not when I go on long trip loaded down.
Seems like I'd want more feel and connection with the road when maneuvering 5500+ lbs down the road. I know when helping my folks move across the country in a 2005 Odyssey, I was glad to have relatively sharp, weighted steering. Others have different standards and desires in a vehicle, and there is nothing wrong with that!
There are times I want to feel the road - when they happen I'd hardly get the keys for the minivan no matter how many horses it has or how tight the turning radius.
Some people can't afford the luxury of a second, sporty car. For them (people like my great aunt who owns the Odyssey), having a van that handles and accelerates the most like a car is a welcome compromise. I'm not sure what turning radius has to do with handling except for maneuvering into parking spots and the like.
I don't want the Japanese feel in a minivan.
What is "the Japanese feel?" Would you clue me in please, I can't say I've heard of it.
Please look up the terms "literally" and "figuratively".
Hmmm maybe there's a reason for this?
I'll just talk about the vehicles.
Vehicles you don't actually own, and reliving how bad your daddy's Chryslers were.
What is "the Japanese feel?" Would you clue me in please, I can't say I've heard of it. Not so much "feel" but Honda aren't exactly the quietess vehicles on the road. Their noisy high reving engine can be really anoying.
And who would you put in the third row of seats, tiny humans? The XC-90's third row is not habitable for adult humans. I know and have tried to sit there.
Some people on here bash Consumer Reports' annual auto survey as taking too much time to complete yet spend hours on here posting. I consider the CR comments and actual owner's evaluations to be far more accurate because they take a weighted total from a large group.
As I have said many times, a person who spends BIG bucks to buy a Chrysler mini to see its value drop 50% in the first year HAS to defend their purchase.
Others will try to impress you because they own a luxury nameplate car. We have had those too in this family only to see them as huge piles of junk.
Nothing and no one is served by bashing another member. If the core purpose of this forum was adhered to then valuable information might be exchanged.
Grad, keep on posting!
It sounds to me like the Chrysler defensiveness is caused by folks trying to convince others that they made the best choice in their purchase. Usually when someone is trying to convince others, it's mostly because they were unsure of their decision in the first place.
Now if you really like the stowNgo or swivel seats, then the T&C/Caravan is the only choice. But if those two features aren't important, then what? You can probably get a T&C/Caravan cheaper with the discounts.
Look at other cars in the linup...Calibur or Sebring. How do those compare to a Toyota Matrix or Accord?
But it's good to have die-hard manufacturer loyalists like some of those here. It's makes for fun (if slanted) conversation!
I found this comment rather arrogant. I get exactly what you mean. However, with all the floatiness of the T&C -- it still handles remarkably well. No personal attacks on my ability to determine a good handling auto please. IMO the 08 T&C was both - good driving - responsive, good traction, good steering and cushy at the same time. It is fair to say that the things that bothered me about the Odyssey may have tainted my test drive -- when something bothers you you don't see the good because of the bad. But I didn't feel the alleged horse power difference between the Odyssey and the T&C -- either engine.
Unfortunately this is exactly how I feel about Odyssey owners. It is almost as if they can't handle someone not liking that van. And again trying to convince themselves they made the right choice, that Honda is not having design, reliability or quality issues just like everyother auto manufacturer is.
I may have chosen an Odyssey had they not moved the spare tire into the window and split the 2nd window into 2 windows with thick black moulding further obscuring vision. Wanted an Oddy in 2000 - but too long of a wait. Thought I settled for a T&C and transmission problems. Now it looks like I made the right choice years ago, and I suspect I did so again.
It just shows a lack of product knowledge.
The two Japanese entries in this segment (unlike the Chrysler minivans, by the way, these two are actually made in the US, but I digress) are the Toyota Sienna and the Honda Odyssey.
In terms of "feel," they could not be more different. If you want a "relaxed, Cadillac" feel in a minivan, than the Sienna gives you exactly that. It rides softer than either the Honda or the Dodge/Chrysler. Numerous reviews and my own test drive confirm the cushy, plush sort of ride in the Toyota. When you combine that with a torque 3.5L V6, you get quite the "relaxing" ride.
The Honda, on the other hand rides more like a sedan. Its certainly not harsh--we're not talking BMW here--but it does communicate more with the road. The steering is very precise and weighted perfectly.
A few relevant impressions from the Edmunds Ody vs. '08 DGC comparison test:
At the test track the Honda kicked butt, pulling 0.76g on the skid pad compared to the Dodge's 0.71g and traipsed through the slalom at 60.3 mph compared to the Dodge's 56.2 mph. Neither is going to give a Lotus Elise a run for its money, but if there's such a thing as a "driver's minivan," the Odyssey is it.
It also rides better.
The Odyssey's ride is composed and recovers nicely from any sort of upheaval. The Grand Caravan isn't bad, but there's more impact harshness over larger pavement cracks, and recovery after a disruption takes longer. In sum, the Dodge doesn't feel as substantial or refined as the Honda — which is only exaggerated by the cheap feel of controls like the steering wheel and transmission shifter.
In our 60-mph-to-0 braking test, the results were close, 131 feet for the Honda and 134 feet for the Dodge, but the Honda's firm pedal was preferred over the Caravan's, which alarmingly traveled all the way to the floor on every run.
There's no denying the Honda feels better assembled, plus its navigation system proved to be easier to program and its screen is larger.
We also give the seat comfort crown to the Honda. Both vans were subjected to family road trips during their stay with us, and the Honda's driver seat was voted to be more comfortable over the long haul.
And then there's price. Some careful excision of the Grand Caravan's more lavish options would bring the prices closer together, but the Dodge's $39,305 as-tested sticker is a thick $3,815 more than the Honda's $35,490 bottom line.
When the host steps in and decides we can only talk about vehicles we currently own, I'll happily leave. Until then, you can get over it. I'm here; if you don't feel my posts are valid, please feel free to SKIP THEM.
What is "the Japanese feel?" Would you clue me in please, I can't say I've heard of it. Not so much "feel" but Honda aren't exactly the quietess vehicles on the road. Their noisy high reving engine can be really anoying.
So Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, etc... are all the same? My question was directed at someone else. I was looking for their view of the Japanese feel, as relative to their DCX product. Toyotas feel an awful lot different than Hondas do. They are a lot quieter, and a lot softer-riding. I equated them to the last Grand Caravan SXT I drove (which was a prev. gen model). Hondas are more sporty in handling and ride (meaning firmer) while DCX and Toyota are more cushy, although the Dodge made a ruckus when pushed above 3k RPM.
I don't know where you're getting your numbers at to even want to bother responding. You want to quibbe about behind 3rd space, I could equally quibble about the space in the Stow N Go bins too.....but what's the point?
Actually I look at it this way.....When Honda and Toyota owners (though its almost always Honda owners), have nothing better to do than bash Chrysler, Chrysler must be doing something right. If you have to put down Stow N Go or Swizel N Go, or base engines, or subjective things like Steering feel...... how sad is that to begin with, then to try and spin it as "defensiveness" on our part? Sad.....
You don't even know what their sample size is, it could be 50 people responding to their surveys. There's been a number of people on here, including myself who never bothered completing their 10 page survey.
As I have said many times, a person who spends BIG bucks to buy a Chrysler mini to see its value drop 50% in the first year HAS to defend their purchase.
LOL, BIG BUCKS??? The same old game, let's just use MSRP to calculate the resale value, never mind that very few Chrysler buyers pay anywhere near that. Many Honda buyer were paying adders. What's the saying figures don't lie but liars figure? We can all play the figures game and throw out numbers, but everyone's individual experience is unique. Tossing out "BIG" and "50%" is meaningless and misleading.
LOL -- talk about the personal attacks. That green-eyed monster got ya didn't he. I passed on what you have chosen, and your fragile ego can't handle it. Minivan envy.
I laid out a very logical reason why your statement about "Japenese feel" is very much off base--namely, because the two Japanese vehicles in this segment have the complete opposite "feel."
At the least, can you tell me which one of them you refer to as having "Japanese feel" and what the other one has, then?
I also provided quantative numbers backing up my points. Feel free to counter those.
And by the way, your point about retail vs. MSRP is a good one. For instance, on the surface, I'm getting killed on my wife's '04 Malibu Maxx, because its only worth about $9k on trade from an MSRP of $23k. However, I actually paid $16.5 on it (i know, its no wonder GM is losing money, but that's a different story), so I'm really not.
However...in this instance, it doesn't apply. Go to www.fitzmall.com and price the new Grand Caravan. Then go to the Ody Prices Paid forum and see what Honda's actually cost. You'll find that for vehicles equipped roughly the same way, the Honda is MUCH cheaper. So in this instance, resale value is an even more pronounced advantage for Honda, and to a lesser extent, Toyota, since Sienna's are selling at or below invoice, even for '08's (again, check www.fitzmall.com where you can also price Toyota's).
I'm not personally attacking you, and I really don't have any agenda here, but I also don't appreciate sloppy arguments. I'm not attacking your decision to buy a DGC--as I said from the beginning, I can see situations where that vehicles makes the most sense for some people.
What bothers me is that you are taking that a step further by asserting things that simply aren't true about both vehicles--and now that I've provided you with data, you have no rebuttal.
Please keep your comments focused on the vehicle(s). It is entirely possible to disagree with another member without including disparaging personal assessments of their character.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Cheaper....oh yeah right, were they optioned the same? Did Edmunds supply that detail? I don't remember.
This shows a total lack of product knowledge. Chrysler minivans are made in St Louis, which I think is still part of the US?? and in Ontario Canada, just south of the US border (yes, Canada is south of Detroit) by a mile. Where do profits for Honda and Toyota go.... back to Japan?? Isn't Chrysler now a US company again?? Where do their profits go?
Ohh at one time, Honda built Oddy in Canada also, now I believe they're built in Alabama? But Honda is still building cars in Canada.
If you want to learn more about CRs survey methods, my two-second google search came up with this:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/maintenance-accessories/consumer-reports- - -car-reliability-faq-8-06/overview/0608_consumer-reports-carreliability-faq_ov.h- - tm
Actually, I think the stowNgo and swivel are great options for those who want/need them. I'd rather have the better interior space, better ride (not floating like a 1970s boat), safer handling (better at avoiding accidents), better quality interior, and from a company with a long history of high quality vehicles. It's great to have high sale volumes (good for McDonalds burgers too).
FYI...From the manufacturer's websites (about 7" more legroom in the combined 2nd & 3rd row):
Odyssey Legroom (in., front/middle/rear) 40.8 / 40.0 / 41.1
Caravan Legroom (in, front/middle/rear) 40.6 / 36.4 / 37.6
by the way...I'm still waiting for someone to find some comparison test that puts the caravan on the top...but I guess ALL reviewers are biased :P
No fair to mention all the C&D parts that favor the Ody and not the ones that don't. You clearly drank the Kool Aid and presented the case as Honda would.
It was slower 0-60 and used a lot more fuel than both the Dodge and the Toyota.
C&D staff probably don't pay for their own gas, but we do. I think it's fair to say that if we got a miserable 16mpg we'd try to use a little less throttle on the Ody. Perhaps they just pushed it harder to prove a point - they want to be seen as enthusiasts and prioritize handling and steering feel.
OK, fine, but the 3mpg deficit compard to the much quicker Sienna would cost me $2960.53 in extra gas over my expected 100k mile ownership, assuming a best-case scenario that gas drops to $3 a gallon and stays there for the next 10 years (doubtful).
I'll happily bet that $3000 that if C&D staffers actually bought the van they would not drive it that way.
Plus you say the Ody is quieter at idle and at full throttle, but let's fact it, how often are you in that state? A few seconds? You cruise at highway speeds for hours, hours, and hours. What matters is the highway noise level, and there the Dodge is more quiet (and the Toyota).
Yes, Honda won that comparo, but mostly on subjective measures (gotta have it, fun to drive) when enthusiast driving was the primary criteria, and gas mileage is completely ignored.
Any how, to be fair paint the whole picture, the Dodge was quicker, more efficient, and more quiet at cruise. OK, so I drank some of Dodge's Kool Aid.
Consumer Reports rates the Sienna higher than the Ody, let's see how they rate the new Dodge. I think it's fair to say they better represent family needs, as opposed to enthusiast drivers' needs like C&D does.
A few more comments: the 3.8l in the Dodge is fine but if the 4.0l gets the same gas mileage I don't see why they don't just phase it out. Maybe there are UAW contracts to continue building those engines in certain plants, but sadly this handicaps Chrysler.
Another: someone priced a Sienna at $40.5k, sure, but that's with AWD and laser cruise control. Try easing up on the options list, buddy!
One peek at Fitzmall.com, where they have 80 Siennas in stock, and the most expensive one tops off at $37.5k.
There is no $40k Sienna, it's a myth. The worst negotiator in the world cannot pay more than $37.5k, $3 grand below your price.
A Sienna XLE with heated leather, DVD, GPS, and a moonroof goes for $33k. That's pretty well loaded up.
Spend more and you're really just showing off.
There, I'll now step off the soap box.
Who is next?
Haha, Chrysler Corp isn't Jim Jones, so you're ok!
LOL....100 people sample size!! Now that lends credibility to the ratings!!
The best comparsion test are real people themselves, who continue to make Chrysler minivans the best selling even after 25 years on the market, regardless of what some auto rag journalist subjectively likes.
I'll wait for CR for their measurement, which can not be subjective, not rely on data from the Chrysler or Honda website.
Wow, I thought we were talking about sound being perceived. Where'd the Stability Control argument come from?
Edmunds tests cornering with cars with Stability Control on I believe. It is "on" in both vehicles. Because Chrysler chooses lower thresholds, it has worse abilities (although safe) at the limit. It sounds like you want Edmunds to make excuses for Chrysler, when in fact both vehicles use the same handicap. The "reality" is that Honda (and its VSA) corners faster.
And, before someone says "these aren't performance cars" to me citing a "who cares" attitude, just remember I didn't bring this up please.
It had everything but the AWD. I need to stop at dealership for RT test drive. I'll check out the XLE, I really just need a tow package and backup camera to hitch up my RV easily.
Honda/Acura had 7 vehicles on the list, as did Ford/Mercury/Volvo. Chrysler/Dodge had zero.
Link to MSN Article about IIHS
You're almost there, turn both off and see what the difference is. Honda's VSA allows it to corner faster because Honda feels that's a safe limit for their customers. Dodge has a different standard and their stability control kicks in at a lower speed preventing it from cornering any faster. It's not an excuse. C&D pointed this out in their comparison.
Dodge has a different standard and their stability control kicks in at a lower speed preventing it from cornering any faster.
So, a Chrysler's setup is slower than a Honda's setup. Okaaaaay, the testing reflects that. As most people will leave it, the Dodge cornering limit is lower. I just don't picture many van drivers disabling S/C so they can corner faster. I do see them making an accident avoidance maneuver, in which case the Honda would be quicker.
Did I not just post these numbers?
The Dodge is NOT more quiet than the Odyssey at 70 mph cruise.
Lets try this again, this time with feeling:
DGC:
Db Idle: 44.7
Db Full Throttle: 77.8
Db 70 mph Cruise: 70.2
Ody:
Db Idle: 44.8
Db Full Throttle: 72.1
Db 70 mph Cruise: 67.2