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You may want to check out the C&D issue, this may help you understand the difference. The Chrysler system isn't slower, it kicks in sooner, taking control sooner, preventing lost of control sooner. You never disable it
dennis: FWIW, you can get what you want plus a DVD player for the kids for about $33k street pricing. Just get an XLE with EVP 4, I think it's called.
Let me find an example....
OK, fitzmall.com, a no-haggle dealer here in MD, has one for $32,408 (that includes freight by the way).
That is for an XLE with 2nd and 3rd row sunshades, 9" DVD, GPS Nav, Bluetooth, heated leather, and a moonroof.
That's more than you asked for, for $32k and change. Add less than a grand for a hitch and whatever accessories you want.
See what I mean? You don't need to spend $40.5k.
Car & Driver lists the Dodge at a whisper-quiet 61 dBA at 70mph cruise, the Honda at 67 dBA.
Maybe Edmunds had a pre-production Dodge? If so not fair.
Here is C&D's chart, I stand by my statement - the Dodge is quieter at cruise.
The Dodge has more power, more torque, better power to weight, more gears on the trans, quicker 0-30, quicker 0-60, quicker 0-100, quicker 1/4 mile, higher trap speed, quicker rolling start, quicker 30-50, and is more quiet at cruise and more fuel efficient as tested.
Honda has a higher redline, quicker 50-70, plus a higher top speed.
Noise levels are split but as I mentioned before, C&D noted lower noise levels at cruise for the Dodge, by 6 dBA.
Their observed fuel mileage was also 2mpg better for the Dodge.
Which is interesting given the Dodge is quicker, but I digress.
Point is, every van has its trade-offs. I don't own either of those, but when a one-sided story is presented I will play the Devil's Advocate and present the rest of the story.
No van is perfect, these are just some of the trade-offs of that comparo's winner, for instance.
I'm glad to see you edited things from the time I read your post and the time it took me to click "reply.
No van is perfect, indeed.
I test drove an Outlook, based on the same platform.
The Buick was out of my price range, and was just coming out when I bought my van.
The Outlook was beefy, but still has less room inside for more money, and it uses more gas than vans.
They're very successful, though.
I toned it down a little later because I felt I could make my point without poking fun.
Apologies to those that read my early remarks and were offended.
It's funny to see people so passionate about minivans, eh?
It doesn't fit with their perception - imports good, domestics bad, it's that simple. Besides, everyone knows real people only buy minivans for they road holding, cornering capability! Not for a quietness, soft ride, warranty, value or kids friendly features.
I toned it down a little later because I felt I could make my point without poking fun
It's easy to get riled up, but you did the right thing by changing it. If only more followed your lead. :sick:
If everyone would have sit for ten minutes between posts, I'm sure things would be a lot less "passionate." I think the passion comes from people posting things they disagree with, especially when they are viewed as posting things as the last word. THAT is what gets people fired up (such as the incomplete picture you were responding to) I believe.
Is it rude if I laugh?
In this case I could not resist.
It's easy for me to say that, however, because I have an extra car in our fleet. So I drive a Miata to work each day, not my van. The van is the family car and is left for bigger duties when I need more than 2 seats or more cargo space.
Basically when I drove all the people movers in my price range I could not find one that was fun enough to do both jobs, so I simply split the task in to 2 vehicles. One fun runabout, for errands and city commutes, and the other a trip/family car for hauling.
So I sort of have to laugh at the idea of sporty handling and steering feedback in ANY of the people movers I considered. Not just vans, either, crossovers too.
Sure, there are very subtle differences between one or the other, but to me they were not very significant. Not enough for me to give up my Miata, not even close.
I think Car & Driver went out of their way to study these nuances, very minor differences in things like steering feedback and chassis communication, to appear to be the enthusiasts' publication.
Clearly it worked.
Honestly, though, I wonder if Family Circle magazine is actually more qualified to test a minivan they way it's used by the average owner.
When was the last time you had the kids in the car and took a highway off ramp at the limit, tires squeeling? Seriously? My wife would kill me then and there.
A better road test would be to give all 7 people a Happy Meal and let them have a food fight.
Then test which van is easiest to clean.
Who's with me? Let's start our own club.
OK, I have to go now, the doctors are here with my medications.
Hey, what's with the straight jacket? Did Honda send you? Or Dodge, hey, HEY!
Hey, what's with the straight jacket? Did Honda send you? Or Dodge, hey, HEY!
ROFL :P
I think the point of the good handling characteristics, sharper steering, and firmer ride are to help minimize the fact that you're driving a 2+ton vehicle. In driving my Accord and my aunt's Odyssey back to back, I can tell they are related. Sure, the braking feel is still different, and there seems to be an extra layer of pudding somewhere between my fingertips and the road (although this could be leftover from ateixeria's food fight). It still delivers a very carlike driving experience. This is plus for people like my mom who had a 1993 Accord and swore off of vans after driving a Windstar once. The Odyssey felt "just like her Accord, just with an extra row of seats" to paraphrase her. I don't think its quite that simple, but it helps me make my point that the Odyssey drives the most like a "car" than any of its competitors.
By the way, my mom, who swore off of vans, drove her Odyssey for over 5 years (it was a 2000 EX in Granite Green).
I don't WANT a minivan that handles like a sports car. We're not going to drive it that way.
However, having a vehicle with a small turning circle, communicative steering and good powertrain performance is helpful in the real world, when you're lugging around kids, too.
My general impression is that the "guts" of the new Chrysler vans aren't up to par with Toyota and Honda, but they're compensating with clever packaging and neat features.
Right now, they're all the same money, so take your pick.
I do see a big difference between a Windstar and a new Ody, but I think the newer vans are fairly close, i.e. the differences are subtle.
The truck-like minivans failed in the marketplace and disappeared, basically.
A Sienna is so much smoother riding than the Freestar rental I had a while back, there's just no comparison.
I think all vans have gotten a lot better.
But five people on here make it the word of God?
I'll wait for CR for their measurement, which can not be subjective, not rely on data from the Chrysler or Honda website. So you don't like CR's reviews, but you like their measurements?? In other words, you just find what agrees with your opinions. You realize that the way CR does interior measurements is also subjective, but then you didn't know anything about their test methods until I pointed you to the webpage.
Of course we should rely on your opinions over CR and Edmunds, which are professional testers...do you also perform surgery on yourself? :P
The Dodge is NOT more quiet than the Odyssey at 70 mph cruise. Lets give this a rest? You can keep posting your Edmunds numbers,we could post C&D numbers. Lets see what CR says.
You say to give it a rest because you don't like the result.
Last time I checked, an inch was still an inch, a cubic foot was still a cubic foot, and measureable, not subject to personal opinion as much as "nice firm ride" or "great brake feel" etc... CR's measurements are consistent and repeatable. I have stated this for many years now.
Now I have to wonder, when CR can't rate a vehicle due to lack of feedback, what does that say about ease of completing their form?
What's the point? is my point. There'll be other tests, more reliable testing methods than Edmunds for sure. Edmunds has so many incorrect things in their data, or lack of detail.....things like the Chrysler doesn't have traction control (false) or no detail on the level of equipment for comparison of price....they just say the Honda is cheaper. Great review Edmunds. When they can't even get the simple things right, you have to wonder.
Do you ever NOT put words in people mouths??? Sorry you don't like faults being pointed out, but they aren't opinions. If Edmunds can't even do the simple things and get them right, I'd hardly call them professional testors. Ohhh and my OPINIONS are just as valid as CR's or Edmund's or C&D or anyone's on here, including yours. You may not want to hear them, belittle them or whatever but it doesn't bother me.
For vehicles that sell in smaller volumes it's just hard for them to collect enough of them to publish the data.
Ohh!! I thought the five were all gods and was fearful of being struck down by lightning for not worshipping to the god of Odyssey. I'll pray tonite to my god - the one and original god of minivans - Chrysler.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9186740233697488213&q=2008+chrysler+min- - ivan&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8rumWeCr5M
If that's the case, then why don't all of the headroom, legroom, etc measurements look the same. The answer is because it depends on HOW you measure something. CR measures headroom, for example, by measuring the distance from the top of a person's head to the ceiling, which depends on the height of the person and the angle of the seat.
Exactly what I think when I read some folks posts here
I'm not belittling yoru opinions...anyone can have an opinion on anything. But I would trust a doctor's opinion on a medical issue over a car mechanic, just as I'd trust professional reviews over a guy on a Edmunds forum...especially when you hear the same opinions from many different professional reviewers.
I went over the features lists and there are 2 things I wish the T&C Limited did differently. First, I wish it came in the dark slate gray leather interior. My kids destroy everything so the darkest leather should be available to those of us who use a minivan for what it is intended. The slate gray IS offered on the Touring model but not the Limited. The errrrrr "Godly" Odyssey top model has a black leather I wish the T&C had. But to be fair, several Oddy owners are whining that they wish the Oddy Touring came in a lighter leather instead of just dark ones. You just can't please everybody it seems.
Secondly they make you get the BackseatTV if you get the double DVD package on the Limited. On the T&C Touring you can get just the double DVD's and that package is about $500 less. I'd rather skip the TV, save the $500 but could not.
Nobody has ever disputed that. Its still not as fast as the Sienna, but its plenty, plenty quick enough.
My complaint was with the 3.8 and 3.3. Both are underpowered. The 3.8 is adequate, but at the bottom of the class. Unfortunately, when I searched dealer lots last weekend, I found very, very few 4.0's--the only ones in my metro area (which is a very large market) were fully loaded up $35k+ models. And of course the 4.0 is only available on CTC Limited, so that's the same situation.
The 3.3 is embarrasing, and Chrysler should be ashamed to put its name a 4000+ pound van with that powertrain---just as they should be to sell Charger's with a 2.7L V6.
Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai/Kia all offer ONE powertrain on its minivans, and all of those vehicles have good engines. The Chrysler 4.0 is a good engine--so why can't Chrysler offer it across the spectrum? As has been pointed out, there's no fuel economy penalty compared to the 3.8.
Its time for American manufactures like Chrysler to step up and not just meet, but surpass imports, That's not going to happen with ancient tech engine technology in the majority of vans sold.
For me a [non-permissible content removed] feeling auto is a higher tuned, higher pitch sounding, smaller turning radius that yes, Subaru, Honda and Toyota manufacture and I experience everytime I test drive them.
Did not say I did not want a Japanese feeling car, rather I want a soft, calm, luxurious feeling in a minivan. If the [non-permissible content removed] make one -- I'd test it too.
I am strongly considering the Subaru Tribeca as a vehicle for my kids to drive when my 172K T&C dies. It has great safety, great handling, a shorter wheel base, and a small optional 3rd seat that would do in a pinch, but generally would be considered a 5 seater. It does have the [non-permissible content removed] feel but it will not be used as my cruiser. However, when it comes to my cruiser, nothing beats the T&C Limited -- which I purchased with a friends EC number plus the current $1500 rebate for approx $33500 with NAV, swivel, and DVD.
I STRONGLY considered the 3.8. Chose the 4.0 simply as a change of pace. But why did I consider it?
First I have never had a power issue with it. But that may be a matter of taste or how hard somebody drives it I guess. But I quote another - "a 60-degree V6 -- Bulletproof".
This OHV engine is tried and true and extremely reliable. Everybody I know who owns the 3.8L has ridiculous mileage on it and never any engine problems. Those who purchased prior to 1999 have replaced transmissions but never had engine problems.
We don't know the reliabilty or longevity of this SOHC 4.0L in this application. The "Lifetime Warrenty" definitely helped though.
My LE was $25,247 with package 3 (trip computer and dual power sliding doors).
Today, $30 grand would get you an XLE with the leather package, and you'd have enough change left to put in a 12" DVD player like mine.
0-60 times for the Sienna are:
autos.com: 6.7 seconds
Car & Driver: 7.2s (7.4s rolling start)
Consumer Reports: 7.8s (FWD), 7.7s (AWD)
I'm not sure I want to be holding a camera during a full throttle 0-60 run like that. You guys are nuts.
But, since we're on the subject, I'll throw this out. To me, it looks like the 2002-2004 Odyssey vans were quicker than the new 2005- ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODxLZbp1U2Y
The speed at which stability control is ENABLED bares no relationship whatsoever as to when it will ACTIVATE.
Stability control will not activate, apply braking and engine dethrottling, unless the system senses that the vehicle is not following the "line" the driver desires. That generally means some significant level of over or understearing, basically one set of tires not having enough roadbed traction for the lateral forces being applied.
And I don't know of any stability control system, outside of a Porsche sports car, or the like, that can be turned off, at will, by the driver.
Insofar as the Edmund's "cornering" tests are concerned I would suspect that the tires (and wheels) had, have, more to do with cornering ability than the possible activation of the stability system.
The fact that Chrysler ENABLES the stability control at a lower speed simply implies to me that they most likely use a more sensitive yaw sensor and it thereby provides a reliable signal at a lower road speed.
I don't understand why you even care? Are you going to ever buy a Chrysler? Are you possibly in the market? Judging from your posts, I'm thinking not, but I could be wrong. Let the buyers decide what they want and how much they want to spend. A 3.3 with 4spd auto may just be perfect for a church bus, hauling poor kids to Sunday school once/week......I know a guy doing just that with his'.
BTW - the 4.0 is a fairly new engine, introduced on the Pacifica which just cease production this week. It's used in a number of Chrysler vehicles like the Nitro and it is probably still ramping up production. Killing the Pacifica should help some. All I see on lots around metro Detroit is 4.0s. Chrysler has surpassed imports in many areas.....Does any offer a 6 spd auto? There are many areas where Chryser is a leader. Also, Chrysler will introduce all new V6s starting in 2010 , called Phoenix.....that'll match anything on the market. You'll also see a clean diesel next year in their minivans.
MANY cars allow you to deactivate stability control, my 2001 BMW allowed it, Cadillacs do, and I think Toyota changed their's to allow it now.
Next Vehicle
We had an interesting evolution from looking at crossover SUVs to eventually minivans. Looked at Veracruz, Ford Freestyle/Taurus X, Mazada CX-9 and Pacifica. At one point I almost moved on a loaded Pacifica with the new 4.0, actually--leftover '07.
But a gut check of the Pacfica revealed that it really lacked for room in the back, and I had concerns about reliability and quality. Then we started looking at minivans, which I had wanted to do all along, but my wife finally decided it made the most sense. My father has an '06 DGC SXT that we used for a few weeks (with the 3.8, so I know of what I speak). His previous van was an older DGC with the 3.3, so again, I don't need a lecture, I've driven it.
We've looked most closely at the Sienna and the Odyssey after considering the American and Korean twins. Price is an issue for us and I'm looking for the most bang for the buck. I did look hard at the Chrysler twins but with comparably priced equippment, 2007 Odyssey's are much, much cheaper and I honestly believe its a better vehicle.
I appreciate some of the features on the Chrysler twins, but the underpinnings (read: reliability, based on past models) and interior quality bother me, plus its several thousand more than the Ody. Another big strike against the DGC is the turning circle, it really drove like a bigger vehicle than either the Japanese minivans and my wife, who is smaller, felt less comfortable. So as of this moment, we're leaning toward an Ody though obviously we haven't made a final decision yet.
So you're from the Detroit area...no wonder why you don't like Honda or Toyota. Up there you see nothing but GM, Ford & Chrysler cars...probably because 1/2 the population buys them under a family plan...at least I now know where your bias comes from. So continue with your "Go Team" posts and have fun!
I spent most of my life near Philly, PA (I'm not a Michigan native by any stretch) then years in Texas and more years in California before arriving in Detroit 10 years ago. I have owned everything but Toyota and Korean makes (out of respect for my father who's brother was killed in Korea before I was born), multiple Honda vehicles, German cars etc... My car pics are in my carspace page here on Edmunds before you go assuming other things about me. I don't dislike Honda or Toyota, but I don't put them on a pedestal either. You may just want to reveal some of your biases by entering some info and pics in your carspace page before someone makes assumptions about you! In California I saw nothing but Honda and Toyota dealers....about every block it seemed. I can get the supplier discount on almost any brand I want, and I can get the true "employee price" on any big 3. All my family is in PA, and none of them work in the automotive industry.
My bias stems from working in the automotive industry for 10 years now, being in domestic and import plants, knowing how they purchase and spec in electronic components, quality practices etc... I've been to tier one plants where on one line they're producing clusters and climate controls for Honda and five feet away, Ford subsystems are being assembled....using many of the same components. My company is the number one supplier of electrical connectors and wiring in the world, I work directly with the engineers on radios, navs, DVD, clusters, climate modules, stability control modules, engine control modules etc..... for ALL OEMs. My personal experience has taught me there's not a lot of differences between all makes these days - they're all pretty good - equally reliable. The only OEM who really stands out in terms of strict requirements/high standards is BMW by FAR!!!
In the future, please stop putting words in my mouth or making assumptions about me!
One of the Subaru Crew works for a supplier to SIA (Lafayette, Indiana builds the Legacy, Outback, Tribeca, and now Camry), and he surprised me when he told me Subaru's quality control and inspection processes are actually more stringent than Toyota's.
I was surprised, but CR says Subaru just passed Toyota in reliability, so maybe I shouldn't be.
We own a Toyota and Subaru and are happy with both, FWIW.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They only essentially make SUVs and station wagons, save for one sedan. The Tribeca actually is very well styled, with an interesting interior. The Forester is getting aged, sure, but had a certain rugged appeal to it.
The Legacy/Outback is certainly no worse than its competition. A bit bland, maybe, but most sedans are. I think the new Impreza is kind of ugly, except for the new 5 door. But...so what?
Subaru is a very successful car company for a reason--they're not trying to be mass market cars, but they have a very solid niche, very good repeat buyer numbers, and they're cars are among the most reliable on the road. My family has owned a Subaru since 1993. In just about 15 years of ownership, we've made exactly ZERO unscheduled dealer stops. That's incredible. Not a single problem in 15 years.
Basically, you buy these things, you change the oil every so often, and that's about it. We had one get totaled (uh, driver error...poor mom). Got hit standing still by a car moving 55 mph. She walked away with not even a scratch.