Maybe they should work for a $1 a year like some of them CEO's?
Since they began operating U.S. auto factories in the early 1980s, the nonunion Asian and European transplants have kept their wages within a few dollars of those paid by the Detroit 3 to UAW work forces.
At the 19-year-old Toyota plant in Georgetown, Ky., workers earn about $25 an hour, plus bonuses, compared with about $27 an hour for UAW workers at the Detroit 3. Last year, Georgetown hourly workers took home $6,300 in bonuses, reflecting the plant's high productivity and Toyota's global profit bonanza.
But Toyota's newly opened Tundra plant in San Antonio started its unskilled hourly workers at about $15.50 last year. After three years, the rates will increase to about $21 an hour.
Nissan pays workers just under $22 an hour at its Canton, Miss., plant, which opened in 2003. Hyundai's pay rate for production workers in Alabama is close to that. In March, Hyundai said it will expand an on-site engine plant there and hire workers at $13.50 an hour.
The wage differential paid in those plants, while substantial, is only a small part of this competitive threat. The difference in benefit obligations is enormous. The Big Three are committed to paying an ever-growing number of retirees tens of billions in pensions and health care. The current retiree to active worker ratio at GM is 2.5-1.
Korean based Hyundai recently opened a state of the art plant in Alabama. They, of course, will have no retirees any time soon. In any case, they do not provide a defined benefit pension as UAW workers enjoy. Like most of the transplants, Hyundai workers are enrolled in a 401(k) plan–the kind of retirement security that Enron workers once counted on. The transplant bosses also contribute far less toward out of control health care costs than the Big Three are required to cough up.
The Big Three have seen this coming. More than a decade ago they started to spin-off the unionized sector of their parts manufacturing with the long range goal of seeing these outsourced operations drive down labor costs. But when GM spun off Delphi in 1999 they had to agree to a transition period–at least through 2007--where they would continue to guarantee basic obligations they had accepted under previous contracts.
Delphi, following other major parts suppliers, Federal Mogul and Tower Automotive, has now entered bankruptcy and is demanding huge cuts in wages and benefits. That’s not only bad news for the 24,000 UAW members (and several thousand in other unions) at Delphi. If GM is held to its guarantees of Delphi pensions then General Motors itself may threaten to go the bankruptcy route.
"GM is in meltdown mode," said Peter Morici, a professor of business at the University of Maryland. "The company would be in bankruptcy next year if it didn't have so much cash. It has to get labor costs down to below what Nissan and Toyota pay in the southeast U.S."
If General Motors could realize this learned academic’s goal it would have far reaching ramifications for millions of other workers whose boats have risen over the years on the UAW’s wage and benefit tide.
While health care and retirement obligations put the Big Three at a competitive disadvantage in the auto market the entire industry faces other crucial problems.
Consumer debt in the U.S. is near the breaking point. Also facing sky-rocketing fuel costs, tapped out, worried consumers mean the domestic market pie the corporations must share in will almost certainly decline, not expand.
Hyundai workers are enrolled in a 401(k) plan–the kind of retirement security that Enron workers once counted on.
That is most likely untrue. Enron employees were forced to invest in Enron Stock. They were not allowed to sell their shares. Enron was a crooked operation from the start.
"GM is in meltdown mode," said Peter Morici, a professor of business at the University of Maryland. "The company would be in bankruptcy next year if it didn't have so much cash. It has to get labor costs down to below what Nissan and Toyota pay in the southeast U.S."
That is exactly what I said. GM workers need to be cut back to $20 per hour for GM to survive. A two tier system is just asking for labor unrest. Wagoner should not have settled for that kind of ignorance. There is nothing wrong with a Union cutting wages when times are tough. I watched the IBEW electricians lose $5 per hour when the price of oil tanked. They went down to $23 per hour and no one left. There were guys lined up to take their job if they did. Supply and demand goes for labor as well as tomatoes.
g wrote in response to tlongs message : "Then perhaps they could just BK the NA division and retain corporate HQ and the rest of the company?
That would be the smart thing to do. Then GM has not done anything that seemed all that wise over the last 30 years. GM can build any car in Mexico or So America that they can build here only cheaper. I just don't think they can break out of the repressive UAW contracts and legacy without filing for C11. "
That is the crux. I don't believe even ch 11 would free the three. Why would it ? It hasn't worked for the airlines ? So what we would achieve is an industry that scares the public even more so than today and that takes some doing. A downsized uaw that comes back to exact their retribution as the economy eventually improves. That is the fallacy of the House Republican leadership . That there somehow is a taxpayer gain in a big three bankruptcy. And that would be exactly what ? They dunno but it sounds kind of conservative so there fore . Lord help us from clueless politicians.
A $2150 UAW pension is better than a $14.50 per hour job at a transplant. The transplant worker has to pay soc sec and since he has no pension he has to put 15% into a 401k. That leaves $1944 a month gross, which is 206 a month less than the UAW pension for 30 and out. The UAW guy doesn't need a 401k because he's already into an income for life situation. When the pensionless transplant worker has 3 years in and gets a 20% raise, he will catch up to the retired UAW. So in effect, the retired ex-UAW nearly costs GM more than the active worker at the transplant factory costs the parent co. back in Japan. Japan uses part of the profits from the American worker (and there is a lot) to design a robot that can eliminate the transplant worker's job forever. The guy on pension can only be elimated by death and that could also possibly include that of a spouse before GM's obligation is done.
I would not be suprised if today, the total UAW pension payouts each month exceed the combined US citizen gross payroll of all Asian transplants employees combined.
A $2150 UAW pension is better than a $14.50 per hour job at a transplant.
I have read your post and not sure of your point. First and foremost, GM & the UAW should have NEVER entered into a contract that did not set aside money for retirement as the employee worked. That was sort of rectified in 1990 with ERISA. When they say a pension plan is fully funded that means if the company goes broke the retirees and those vested should be covered for their retirement. IF the UAW and GM agreed to pay the retirees health care for life they should have set aside money to do that. If they did not and the company goes broke, the retirees will not get anything but Medicare with their SS when they turn 65. It seems throughout the hearings the only real interest was in covering the workers. How lame is that. If the tax payer is bailing out the automakers we have the right to see something positive. Not just payments to UAW workers for building vehicles no one wants.
Why is it so bad that a new hire only gets $14.50 per hour? My understanding is they can work up to around $25 per hour. That seems like plenty for a menial task job. Calling auto assembly skilled work is a real push. If they have electricians, machinists, and other skilled workers that should be separate. I am sure that my retirement after 37 years in the Union is higher than many people doing the same kind of work I did. When and if they find a good company they will end up making far more than my retirement. One of the Technicians I worked with the last 10 years I was up in the Arctic quit and went to work for Conoco Phillips doing the same work only non union. His gross this year will be over $150k. A good $40k more than he was making working the Teamster job. He will get a retirement from the IBEW that he had 12 years in. Another retirement from the Teamsters with 11 years and however long he stays with Conoco Phillips. There are good jobs if you are not set in your ways. You cannot stay in Flint and expect the work to come to you.
I would not be suprised if today, the total UAW pension payouts each month exceed the combined US citizen gross payroll of all Asian transplants employees combined.
Is that a good thing or bad? I think I read that GM pays pension to about 450,000 people. They only have 266,000 people working WORLD WIDE. General Motors is a FAILURE. They have created a monster and it is in the form of retirees that did not produce long enough to pay for their own retirement. The average retiree should have had at least 45 years in the company to get 50% of their pay. That is about what Ma Bell paid their retirees at age 65. Not a minute before. AT&T is still going strong while GM with their millstone UAW are ready to dissolve.
I don't believe even ch 11 would free the three. Why would it ? It hasn't worked for the airlines ?
Well some airlines have failed completely. However, three of the biggest - Continental, United, and Delta, were in BK and successfully restructured and emerged leaner and stronger. So your statement is incorrect.
I think I read that GM pays pension to about 450,000 people. They only have 266,000 people working WORLD WIDE.
I don't understand. If the pension is fully funded then GM is not paying anything. The pension should be an annuity covered by it's investments. So GM has (supposedly) no unusual pension costs for its retirees.
Health care is the big enchilada, but the Union has agreed to manage a fund. GM is supposed to pay into the VEBA and the amount is well less than the bailout money they asked for. So PAY the VEBA and then there should be no more discussions about GM's cost for retirees, right? So why is GM still whining about labor inequality? If, as Goldfinger as stated, the UAW is cost-competitive, GM only needs to beg congress for the VEBA amounts (I believe the amount is $7B) and pay it into the fund.
Then all they have to do is make some vehicles that will sell well enough to support their bloated structure, which is their real problem. And since that's not likely to happen they should be cutting big time so that the company size and cost structure mirrors their ability to sell product.
Enron employees were forced to invest in Enron Stock.
For every dollar that we individually contribute to the plan, up to 6% of our income, the company is committed to contributing an equal value in its stock.
Enron was riding high, and as we saw the company officers and supervisors investing in company stock, we felt assured that our own investments were solid.
There are a few things you need to understand about our § 401(k) plan to understand the impact of Enron’s collapse. First, we are free to make various kinds of investments with our own contributions, but the plan prohibits any employee under age 50 from trading the company’s contributions. In other words, the company puts in its own stock, and until we reach age 50, we hold that stock. Second, until very recently, even after age 50, we could only trade 25% of the company’s contributions per year. Third, I said before that the company is committed to contributing stock equal in value to our cash contributions. The company’s practice, however, has been to purchase blocks of stock at the beginning of the year, which it then uses to match our contributions over the course of the year. In making those contributions, Enron uses the cost of the stock when it purchased it, not the value when it makes the contributions. In good years, this certainly has been advantageous. But over the course of the last year, our employer has been contributing stock worth a fraction of the contribution it is supposed to be matching.
Tim Ramsey, age 55, 33 years with PGE: $995,000 loss. Roy Rinard, age 53, 22 years with PGE: $472,000 loss. Al Kaseweter, age 43, 21 years with PGE: $318,000 loss. Joe and Diane Rinard, age 47, 12 years with PGE: $300,000-plus loss. Dave Covington, age 42, 22 years with PGE: $300,000 loss. Tom Klein, age 55, 30 years with PGE: $188,000 loss. Mike Schlenker, age 41, 10 years with PGE: $177,000 loss. Patti Klein, age 47, 24 years with PGE: $132,000 loss.
Few corporations undergoing Chapter 11 proceedings are able to be profitable again after a reorganization, and if they do, it is not a quick process. Public companies tend to try to file under Chapter 11 rather than Chapter 7 because it allows them to still run their businesses and control the bankruptcy process. Rather than simply turning over its assets to a trustee, a company undergoing Chapter 11 has the opportunity to restructure its financial framework and be profitable again. If it fails, all assets are liquidated and stakeholders are paid off according to priority. It's generally filed by corporations that need time to restructure debt that has become unmanageable. Chapter 11 gives the debtor a fresh start, which depends on the debtor's fulfillment of obligations under the reorganization plan. A Chapter 11 reorganization is the most complex and, generally, the most expensive of all bankruptcy proceedings. All of the creditors tack on legal and accounting fees, to make matters worse. When a company files for Chapter 11, that company is assigned a committee that represents the interests of creditors and stockholders. This committee works with the company to develop a plan to reorganize the company and to get it out of debt, reshaping it into a profitable entity. If no suitable reorganization plan can be prepared by the committee and confirmed by the courts, shareholders may not be able to stop their company's assets from being sold off to pay creditors.
Sounds like just what GM needs. It can't manage it's debt and is insolvent. It needs to be reorganized and shed debt if it ever wants to become profitable. If it can't ever become profitable then it should fold. If GM fails completely then that is the risk the shareholders have taken.
So why is GM still whining about labor inequality?
The only whining I see is from the people here. GM has said they have worked out an equitable solution with the UAW. They have two tiered wages and in 5 years there will be virtually no higher wage UAW employees left. Pension is funded. Health care is going to be taken care of by VEBA. Issue is that TODAY's economic conditions, not 5 years from now, that GM needs these cost to be taken care of. Hopefully the loans/government requirements will force the UAW to accept these future conditions today.
>"For those who believe that the Bush administration is not responsible for this economic crisis, ....... Even sadder is the fact that those who believe this propaganda have no savings, no wealth, no 401K, so they have not felt the pain of losing their life savings. "
Our family felt the pain of loosing 40+% of our 401K savings when the dot.com bubble burst under the Clinton administration. Loans were made to many of those companies with no real assets and no real profits. Actually that bubble was pretty much created and reached it's zenith under Clinton's reign. Start to finish ! ! ! A lot of people lost all their savings.
Then came the grand finale years of the housing "Bubble". We didn't buy into that one. We were aware of the shoddy loans that were being made and felt fairly certain that eventually there would be multitudes of foreclosures hitting the market and the bubble would burst. It did. However it was not created under the Bush reign. It had it's start under Carter and was nurtured for many years. Give loans to people that simply can not pay them back. Stop discriminating against the poor.
So if we are to blame Bush, we need to be fair. Blame Clinton and all the other involved presidential administrations also. Plenty of blame to go around.
>"The GOP has acted like a drunken sailor on shore leave is what history bears out. This let the free markets decide deregulation, borne of the Reagan era is what we have just seen before our eyes."
Reagan was busy straightening out Carters mess. As you might remember, under Carter, interest rates to buy a house were 18%. To buy a car was 21% and Bank CD's were paying 15%. Unemployment was in the double digits.
If there was a problem with Reagan's policy, why didn't Clinton fix that during his 8 years in office ?
I don't believe for one minute that any bank wanted to loan money that had a high chance of not being repaid. But they were pushed and prodded to do so.
>"Could they perhaps be wrong about the UAW? I believe in personal responsibility and someone needs to fess up. "
Somehow UAW and personal responsibility just don't seem to go together. Where was the "Personal Responsibility" when they continuously strike a failing company. Why didn't each person realize the welfare of the goose might be a lot more important than increasing the size of the egg from that dyeing goose. Where is the "Personal Responsibility" with UAW workers?
Because we do listen to talk radio and watch Fox, CNN, CNBC, C-Span, and follow up on links supplied in the internet, it dawned on us that we had been letting that 401K be managed by people that had their own interest at heart. Much like the UAW workers have done for so long. We took charge of our own affairs and manipulated the 401k to new heights even though we could no longer contribute to it, due to retirement in '96.
For those who believe that the Bush administration is not responsible for this economic crisis, Even sadder is the fact that those who believe this propaganda have no savings, no wealth, no 401K, so they have not felt the pain of losing their life savings.
What a misguided view of reality. In 1998 my wife's 401k had a value of $348,000. In early 2000 when others at her work started complaining of losses she decided to check her 401k. Paine Webber had swindled her out of all but $106,000. That was a 70% loss during the CLINTON administration. The people advising the 401k plan at her work transferred all of the employees to a local Financial advisor. Without adding any to the $106k he has brought her back to a current $248k. That is after the current losses.
How have you done over the last 7 years financially? I know the number one and two people in the previous administration have gotten extremely wealthy during the Bush administration. Bill and Hill have made $121 million and Al Gore $100 million. For all the complaining about Bush they have done better than they will do under the next one.
Enough of that. What would you do with the current mess at GM? Given the likelihood that there will be a long road back to profit if ever. Would you expect the UAW to implement the future changes now? Or just keep throwing your children's future at a losing enterprise?
Visteon cuts workers pay by 20%. They also state they reduce hours to 4 days a week. I wonder if those are the same; the report is not clear because the writer is not clear.
Obvious Visteon workers don't have the UAW working for them if they are taking a reduction. If both factors are applied as described above the workers' take gross would be 64% of what they were making. Hard to live on that for many people.
Why didn't each person realize the welfare of the goose might be a lot more important than increasing the size of the egg from that dyeing goose. Where is the "Personal Responsibility" with UAW workers?
VERY GOOD perspective on reality. Wagoner and the UAWs' stupidity is the reason GM is in the toilet. Wagoner has had several chances to rectify the situation since 1998. As recently as this summer he could have chained the gates when the UAW walked out and moved the operation South of the Border down Mexico way. He should have filed C11 and gave notice that ALL contracts with the UAW and the dealers were null and void. He has money making operations in other countries. He could build on that and see how interested the UAW was in keeping jobs in the USA.
Obvious Visteon workers don't have the UAW working for them if they are taking a reduction.
Is Visteon running under C11 the same as Delphi? That would mean the court could decide on any reduction in wages. Looks like they had a lot more people in 2004.
This was from a 2004 article: Vehicle parts maker Visteon Corp. said May 6 it signed a seven-year agreement with the United Auto Workers that allows lower wages and benefits for new employees.
Visteon has about 19,500 UAW-represented employees.
Happy New Year to the UAW’s prosperous officers Ron Gettelfinger, General Holiefield, Bob King, Cal Rapson and James Settles from over 500,000 betrayed UAW retirees.
These union officials call themselves negotiators.
In the few short months of Gettelinger’s depressing tenure how much negotiating skill did it take for them to say yes when they should have said no as they gave back 70 years of hard won worker gains that are now lost forever?
At Solidarity House these union officials promote the Reuther brothers who set the standard for working class Middle America. For a factual look at what the Reuthers actually thought of their bogus brand of unionism consider the second link below. It is the words of Victor Reuther talking about the new age concessionary UAW leadership at the huge 50th anniversary Rally of the UAW in Flint in 1987. I moderated this large historic event and it was sponsored by dozens of top UAW local leaders from across our nation.
Today defenseless UAW retirees are being treated as America’s irrelevant underclass. They have been sold-out by government politicians, corporate leaders and especially these top union officials.
As many of these elderly retirees suffer from cancer and other serious work related health issues related to auto production their “life and death health care benefits” have been labeled as sacrificial legacy costs. They have become negotiable political pawns.
Retirees legally owned their health care benefits until these union officials went to court to attain the ability to negotiate them away. These negotiated benefits were paid for over a working lifetime of worker earnings deferrals and hourly contributions. Union officials refused to vest these negotiated monies and frittered them away into profoundly less important areas. Just as significant is the glaring facts that UAW negotiated 30-year auto pensions are overwhelmingly unequal. UAW officials refused to keep pensions up with the cost of living Increases over the years, which allowed older retirees pensions to fall dangerously behind. These UAW retirees who have given so much to our nation have become America’s elderly poor and are tapped-out with living costs. They have also been denied the pension building tools available to today’s retirees and simply cannot afford to buy healthcare on their meager pensions.
It is an American tragedy that these elderly retirees would be targeted and betrayed.
Our family felt the pain of loosing 40+% of our 401K savings when the dot.com bubble burst under the Clinton administration.
Surely they offer safety in the 401K plan? Fiduciary obligation by plans mandate that they offer choice. I think you have prudent choice made by people confused. Risk is assumed by opting for returns rather than lower returns for safety. If you concern doesn't offer choice, they are open to law suits.
Reagan was busy straightening out Carters mess. As you might remember, under Carter, interest rates to buy a house were 18%. To buy a car was 21% and Bank CD's were paying 15%. Unemployment was in the double digits.
Lets not forget that Nixon instituted the ill fated wage and price controls. Any economist will tell you these are certain to bring about shortages and surpluses. Inflation was double digit during the Nixon era. Inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods. Hence, price being the rationing mechanism, they go up. Inflation is factored into interest rates. The lenders want you to pay them back with money which has the same purchasing power and reasonable return for their risk. I don't know of anyone who lays blame on the Carter era for inflation. He further cut spending, such as the B1 bomber, at the same time that the Vietnam war was ending its massive spending. You have to also account for govt debt as the so called "crowding effect" in private investing. Hence, you have to factor in the govt debt as an evil which makes private borrowing more expensive and or puts it off all together.
Inflation robs those on fixed incomes of purchasing power. The UAW has a COLA (cost of living adjustment) not to make money, but rather to maintain purchasing power. Its not a raise in the traditional sense, but rather a method to assure the same standard of living. Unfortunately the pension plans don't have this feature. So it might well be that the pension check is a risky situation. Suppose that your on a fixed pension and we have hyperinflation, your screwed. So instead of govt spending and or the FED lowering the interest rate to stimulate the economy, they raise interest rates and govt rein in spending to head off inflation. This was what Carter was trying to do. Its just foolish to think that Carter had any inflationary policies.
Because we do listen to talk radio and watch Fox, CNN, CNBC, C-Span, and follow up on links supplied in the Internet, it dawned on us that we had been letting that 401K be managed by people that had their own interest at heart.
Its like the Realtors when your looking at buying a home. "This is the best time to buy" is just a way for them to try to make commissions. However, it is a great time to buy today (in the current economy) and all those who made home purchases during or at the top of the bubble are surely having regrets. Stock brokers only care about volume and not investors. The higher the volume, the more commissions. They have been known to "churn" those who trust them, like many older folks. They make trades for the sake of their greed/commissions.
Interesting that you mention 401K and investments. While at a leadership training week at the infamous learning center/resort I met some great UAW members. Of course you meet leaders or people who are active. Most large organizations, to my experience, have about 10% who are the active folks. In any case these UAW brothers/sister are very like-minded in that respect. Three of us had similar interests and forged a friendship. This developed into a limited partnership. We were all from different states and each have unique skill sets. More or less we had an investment club, which began small and grew well. Beyond our wildest expectations, we networked ourselves into some real wealth. Last year, we saw this year coming, gave half to charity and were all the better for knowing each other. Alone we were good but together we were amazing. There are some very talented UAW folks out there and not the stereotypical folks conceptually derived by the media. Just look at that article I posted by a UAW brother.
Mike, Thank you for your insight. Reading your interview with Whitey Hall I have a couple points to comment on.
WH: I believe with all my heart that Walter Reuther would turn in his grave, if he could see what past and current leaders have done to his beloved union. It would be fair to say that if Walter were still leading this once great union, it would not be in the shape it is today. The noose is seriously tightening on UAW workers in this country.
The 2-tier wage system you mentioned is a disgrace to our union. This 2-tier system will eventually be reduced to one tier of low-wage workers after the seniority workers have been bought out or retire, with the resulting profits going to the GM Corp.
I believe that is exactly correct. You cannot have people working side by side with huge wage disparity and no hope to attain the top tier. That was a BIG Gettlefinger screw-up.
WH: Mike, this has always been a sore spot with me and should be with every UAW member active or retired.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us. A world where they are insulated from ever worrying about money or losing benefits. They have a far superior contract covering themselves than the workers they represent.
They are covered under the standard UAW contract as we all are, plus they have a second retirement plan, over and above the first one, that is funded by our dues. Their health care plan is superior to the workers they represent. Some of the other perks are they get COLA on their second pensions. They qualify for their second pension after as little as five years on staff. There is never a concession contract for these International Reps. It only gets improved upon. Provisions like car allowance improvements, towing, oil changes, expense accounts, raises on pensions, and benefits each contract are taken for granted by International Reps.
I think the pain and suffering is being experienced only by our active workers and retirees; definitely not by our International Reps. Our International Union Reps definitely need to quit asking our members to give concessions while they continue to add to their nest egg.
As someone that has retired from 46 years as a Union worker, I do understand the frustration. My question is how do you think that GM, Ford or Chrysler can survive and continue to pay these legacy costs? Do you really think that giving someone a pension & Health benefits at 30 years service is realistic? I know the Alaska Teamsters that I retired from eliminated health care benefits a long time ago. They believed it would be too much of a drain on the pension fund. Most Unions are moving the retirement age minimum up to 59 years of age. I stayed to 63 to assure a healthy retirement. Though my wife does not get any pension when I die.
I've seen this first hand. Its not right. Many times the current membership at UAW locals vote no to contracts. Then when they go back to the table to find some change to please/appease the current membership, they go after the retirees and those to be hired. Then those who are yet to be hired (the new hires) have no voice/vote either.
It looks like they are cutting HQ people which is mostly salaried. So no union there.
The hourly employees were/are ex ford employees. But Ford took back a lot of employees/plants back in 2005 when the spinoff was failing. Ford sold a bunch of the plants and I am not sure what happened since then. But I think the remaining part of Visteon restructured and is what is having the latest issues.
The 2-tier wage system you mentioned is a disgrace to our union.
You do realize that only means that they lowered the wage scale. So that a new hire comes in at a lower rate than prior. You have consistently supported lower wages here on this forum.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us.
You have no clue as to what the UAW international rep is up against and what their demanding job entails. I know one who stressed himself into an early grave. Trust that they are on your side and hate to swallow the bitter pill of a local betraying their retirees. We are the UAW, the membership, not some outside entity. If you don't like something, run for office and change it. Become active in the local and labor friendly organizations.
First and foremost, GM & the UAW should have NEVER entered into a contract that did not set aside money for retirement as the employee worked. That was sort of rectified in 1990 with ERISA. When they say a pension plan is fully funded that means if the company goes broke the retirees and those vested should be covered for their retirement.
Q: What kind of impact has the meltdown had on company pension plans?
A: It's hit them hard. Since most companies invest about 60 percent of their pension plans in stocks and about 40 percent in fixed-income assets such as bonds or money market accounts, they've lost significant money.
Adrian Hartshorn, an actuary with business consultant Mercer, a division of Marsh & McLennan Companies Inc. (NYSE:MMC) , has been tracking the pension accounts of companies in the S&P 1500. At the end of 2007 the companies collectively had a surplus in their accounts of $60 billion. As of the end of September, the combined value had fallen to a deficit of $35 billion because of stock market losses. Without a recovery in the stock market, he said, that deficit could balloon into the hundreds of billions.
Suppose that your on a fixed pension and we have hyperinflation, your screwed.
Life's a gamble. If we have a depression the retirees will be doing better on their fixed income.
Lets not forget that Nixon instituted the ill fated wage and price controls.
You are trying to side step the issues again. Carter also imposed price controls and wage controls. And the interest rates went through the ceiling under his mismanagement of the Government. The year we got rid of Carter inflation was at 13.5% and we had horrible Unemployment. How many UAW workers lost their jobs during the four year reign of Carter?
Its just foolish to think that Carter had any inflationary policies.
I can tell you the rich got a lot richer during the Carter Presidency. T-Bills were paying 17% interest. That means someone invested in government bills they could make a lot more money than they could building cars. Business suffered immensely during that period. I know I went broke trying to run a farm.
I guess you and I will just have to disagree on which side of the aisle has neutered the working class. As someone that worked my way up from minimum wage to a good wage, I consider business more important to a thriving economy than more government. The bigger the government has gotten the more working classes with the UAW included have fallen behind. When they say redistribution of wealth, better hang onto you wallet. They are looking at the middle class to pay the bills.
The 2-tier wage system you mentioned is a disgrace to our union.
You do realize that only means that they lowered the wage scale. So that a new hire comes in at a lower rate than prior. You have consistently supported lower wages here on this forum.
I have asked this before and no one seems to respond. How many years before that person coming in will reach the same wage as the person currently on top? Two tier means two different wage scales in my thinking. Besides it was a statement made by Whitey Hall long time UAW activist being interviewed by UAW retiree Mike Westfall.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us.
You have no clue as to what the UAW international rep is up against and what their demanding job entails.
I was assuming the person that made the statement was in the know more than you are. Again it was part of an interview with UAW activists.
Sounds like just what GM needs. It can't manage it's debt and is insolvent.
Perhaps your right. The legacy is the biggest issue. Its no secret that if the stock market is down, pension plans are underfunded. If the stock market is up, pension plans are over funded. So right now is not a good time and or an unattractive time to sell off.
I've seen it many times. A company and or parts of the company are sold off. Then if the pension plan is over funded the new owners are legally allow to raid the pension plan. Usually its many pensions plans within a company. When they sell off parts of a company they split/spin off these pension plans. I've even seen a company purchased at a fire sale for millions, the pension plan raided for millions, and then the company sold for billions later on (a year or two). There are well funded folks out there that look for this very situation. They even financed the portions of the company they didn't want to a third party. They also honored the UAW contract and the new buyer, UAW and all, (successor clause) are doing beyond well. However, since the market is not doing well and if anything the owner would have to fund as oppose to raid the pension fund, its not going to happen. More than likely is that the pension plan would be dumped off on the taxpayers/PBGC in the end.
How have you done over the last 7 years financially?
I'm good, thanks for asking. Did your wife not have less risky options in her 401K? Don't tell me you were blinded by greed?
Three of those years were 40% plus and none was a loss, since I bailed early last year. fidelity select energy services/fidelity select energy/fedility select natural resources/fedilety select natural gas/fedelity select chemicals were my core holdings. google/hansen/snapple were kind in the longer time frame too
Carter also imposed price controls and wage controls.
In response to the spiraling inflation of the early 1970s, Richard Nixon became the first president to use price and wage controls during peacetime. The strategy did help to stabilize the economy but proved to be only a temporary fix. Unfortunately, Nixon's attempt to subdue inflation and reduce unemployment resulted in limited goods for consumers and increased business bankruptcies, while doing little to curb joblessness. By the time Nixon resigned in 1974, inflation had reached double digits and the American economy was mired in a deep recession. When inflation reached eighteen percent in 1980, Americans clamored for mandatory price and wage controls. President Jimmy Carter steadfastly refused, stating that peacetime controls during the 1970s had proven a dismal failure.
The political season ended last November and we're still in the honeymoon period. Let's quit rehashing the 60's, 70's.... Y'all are making me feel my age.
I can tell you the rich got a lot richer during the Carter Presidency. T-Bills were paying 17% interest. That means someone invested in government bills they could make a lot more money than they could building cars.
You fail to see that inflation is factored into that interest rate and that the purchasing power of that money decreases during inflationary periods. So if I buy a home for $100,000 and sell it for $200,000 in time. Then go to replace it and its selling for $200,000, I have gained nothing.
Sounds like the UAW is trying to cheat on their property taxes also. Just what I would need as a retired UAW member. A luxury resort and golf course that I could not afford to use, stealing from my pension fund, so the fat cat UAW leadership would have a place to hang out and play golf. I wonder how deep in debt they would go before anyone found out if honest news sources did not investigate that kind of chicanery.
A luxury resort and golf course that I could not afford to use, stealing from my pension fund,
How can the UAW steal from their pension fund? GM holds and pays the UAW pensions.
Looks to me like the township the course is in says it is worth more than what the UAW says its worth. And when it was taken to court the UAW value was taken.
Today it is probably worth half what it was in '07 anyway.
I would imagine the UAW has a pension fund for the fat cat Union leadership. Not all contracts will be funded by the corporation. The Teamsters usually have the pension fund. They collect for each hour worked and dump it into the trust fund. Since 1990 they have been much closer watched. Remember when the Unions were accused of lending money to the mob from the pension funds. Las Vegas was started with Union pension money. I was surprised to hear that GM and Ford held the pension money. Isn't that how the steel industry employees got screwed? Who can you trust these days?
Looks to me like the township the course is in says it is worth more than what the UAW says its worth.
When the UAW claims it as an asset in the Pension trust it has one value (Very High). When they get their tax bill they beat the value down to nothing for the township's tax base. The assessor is probably afraid to say much as they will send the guys with baseball bats around to see him. So how does this UAW resort for the fat cat leaders and UAW cronies benefit Michigan? The UAW members being sheep think the leaders have their best interest in mind. Very foolish thinking.
ex: It was Tiger Stadium and the Pontiac Silverdome when I left in 1990...have the names changed???...when the Dome was built, Oakland County residents were "guaranteed" that they would never have to put a dime into the stadium...but, every year since it opened, Oakland County folks have had to contribute $800,000 a YEAR to keep it afloat...they shoulda let it die and bulldoze it, along with the Lions...
steve: you mentioned about the UAW and the War of 1812...that happens to be accurate...Walter Reuther's great-great-great-great grandfather was upset at the treatment of the soldiers, and was going to organize a strike unless they received TWO bowls of rice daily, instead of just one bowl...oh, wait, that was the Chinese army, and I may have my geography slightly wrong...did the Chinese fight the British on American soil in 1812, or have I been staying up too late at night watching the marathon Twilight Zone episodes on SciFi network???
I sense my IQ waning rapidly.........................:):):):):)
Heard on the news today a Chinese citizen wanted to speak to the media about his baby that got sick from tainted Chinese baby formula but the Chinese government would not let him . . . yet Americans will quickly buy these CFL bulbs ( All MADE IN CHINA ) to save a few dollars on their electric bill here in the states ! The Japanese government makes it WAY harder on American car companies , GM,Ford and Chrysler who would love to do business there and build cars in Japan like many of them do in China,South America,etc. While we give an open door policy to the Japanese auto companies in doing business here,yet Americans will buy Toyotas,Hondas,Lexus,Nissans,etc. never thinking or caring about this.
yet Americans will quickly buy these CFL bulbs ( All MADE IN CHINA ) to save a few dollars on their electric bill here in the states !
It is the law. Our Democrat Congress last year past an energy bill that MANDATES all light bulbs sold in 2012 will be CFLs or non incandescent. NO CFLs are made in the USA. That is several 1000 jobs that the so called labor party has forced over seas. As far as domestic cars being sold in Japan. There is no restriction or tariffs on US cars being sold in Japan. THEY DON"T WANT THE CRAP WE BUILD.
Issue is that TODAY's economic conditions, not 5 years from now, that GM needs these cost to be taken care of.
This statement is way overused and is untrue. Wagoner is doing damage control by blaming the issue on today's economy. He is trying to deflect awareness of his own accountability for GM's failures. While the economy is very tough and even the J3 are finding it difficult, they have money in the bank to weather a downturn, and GM does not. Even Ford is doing better.
GM could not make money even while sales were gangbusters with SUVs and trucks. GM is extremely fragile and this is due to the poor decisions, most of them over the past 14 years with Wagoner in charge.
Even if GMs costs get under control, their more fundamental problem is that they are way oversized for the amount of product that appeals to the US consumer and they need to change that. Their "recovery plan" combines a lot of best-case scenarios into a highly optimistic and unlikely set of events - the US economy WILL improve in the second half of 2009 - truck sales WILL recover - the Volt WILL be successful and generate halo effects - the VEBA WILL be funded - US consumers WILL continue to find GM's products interesting enough to maintain or increase market share
This is a very unlikely set of conditions and if any one of them don't meet optimistic expectations then GM is back in the dumper. So what is the chance that all of these will occur? Why is the $$MM salaried/year Wagoner believing this? I wonder if he even has another contingency plan other than begging for more taxpayer money and blaming the economy?
It is the law. Our Democrat Congress last year past an energy bill that MANDATES all light bulbs sold in 2012 will be CFLs or non incandescent. NO CFLs are made in the USA.
Yep!
A few weeks ago, On C-Span, some congressman was addressing Palosi and company about this subject.
From what I gathered, all manufacturer and sales of incandesent bulbs will stop in 2012, as you said. The law also states that no CFL bulbs can be manufactured here. Something to do with the EPA and mercury.
Therefore China, the only country manufacturing them, will have us as a captive audiance and be able to charge whatever they wish. That is, unless GE, Phillips, and the rest decide to move their manufacturing facilities off shore or south of the border. How many folks will that put out of a job?
Needless to say, he was addressing deaf ears.
FWIW: I recently replaced one of my outside spotlights with a CFL. What a piece of crap. The long "bulb" extends to the front glass so the reflector is severely hampered. To stand in front of the bulb and look directly at it, it is quite bright, but the light can't make it's way into the yard. To add insult to injury, when first turned on, it is not bright at all. On a warm night it takes a couple of minutes to reach it's full potential. On a cold night it takes 5 minutes or so and never does reach the same brightness as on a warm night. Tried a second bulb and the results were the same. Wonder how much energy is involved getting them up to speed ?
So if we need instant light, we are out of luck. :sick:
Guess we could stock up on incandesents. But that would be cause for the government to create a new department. They could burn fuel riding around at night looking for yards that were properly illuminated and make arrest. :confuse:
The Center for Union Facts is a secretive front group for individuals and industries opposed to union activities. It is part of lobbyist Rick Berman's family of front groups including the Employment Policies Institute. The domain name www.unionfacts.com was registered to Berman & Co. in May 2005.
In May 2006 the Center for Union Facts, launched its first TV ad campaign. The 30-second spot, running on Fox News and local markets, has "actors posing as workers" saying "sarcastically what they 'love' about unions," like paying dues, union leaders' "fat-cat lifestyles," and discrimination against minorities. The ad campaign cost $3 million, which was raised "from companies, foundations and individuals that Mr. Berman won't identify."
Source: Seacoast Online (New Hampshire), August 17, 2008 From a Center for Union Facts adThe Center for Union Facts, one of lobbyist Rick Berman's front groups, is railing against the Employee Free Choice Act, legislation that would "allow employees at a work place to unionize as soon as a majority signs cards expressing support to join a union." Labor rights advocates say the bill is needed, because of employer intimidation and union-busting tactics. Berman's Center, as the "Employee Freedom Action Committee," says the bill would allow "union bosses" to "stand over workers' shoulders and use coercion." It's launched a $30 million campaign, including radio, television, print and online ads and "a substantial grassroots organizing effort." The "Coalition for a Democratic Workplace," which is comprised of "virtually hundreds of businesses, chambers of commerce and trade associations," is also spending millions to defeat the bill. Both groups are targeting Senators "in what they see as key states," including Maine and New Hampshire. The bill has passed the House and is before the Senate. "The folks behind the ad campaign fear that if Sen. Barack Obama, an Employee Free Choice Act sponsor, is elected president and power shifts to the Democrats in the Senate, the bill will become law."
foot notes Berman has lobbied on behalf of pesticide, alcohol and tobacco companies, and against the Americans with Disabilities Act, checkpoints to catch drunk drivers, minimum wage increases, and card-check. A 2006 USA Today article reported that his lobbying firm brings in $10 million per year for his work on ultra-conservative, anti-union clients. Berman has even waged a campaign against Mothers Against Drunk Driving.
To help explain its deep slump, General Motors Corp. often cites "legacy costs," including pensions for its giant U.S. work force.
In its latest annual report, GM wrote: "Our extensive pension and (post-employment) obligations to retirees are a competitive disadvantage for us." Early this year, GM announced it was ending pensions for 42,000 workers.
But there's a twist to the auto maker's pension situation: The pension plans for its rank-and-file U.S. workers are overstuffed with cash, containing about $9 billion more than is needed to meet their obligations for years to come.
Another of GM's pension programs, however, saddles the company with a liability of $1.4 billion. These pensions are for its executives.
This is the pension squeeze companies aren't talking about: Even as many reduce, freeze or eliminate pensions for workers -- complaining of the costs -- their executives are building up ever-bigger pensions, causing the companies' financial obligations for them to balloon.
For now, the port itself is the destination. Unwelcome by dealers and buyers, thousands of cars worth tens of millions of dollars are being warehoused on increasingly crowded port property.
And for the first time, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, and Nissan have each asked to lease space from the port for these orphan vehicles. They are turning dozens of acres of the nation’s second-largest container port into a parking lot, creating a vivid picture of a paralyzed auto business and an economy in peril.
I recently replaced one of my outside spotlights with a CFL. What a piece of crap.
I replaced 56 lights in my home with CFL bulbs. SDG&E had a promotion through WalMart selling different styles at 79 to 99 cents a piece. I figured they would not get any cheaper. You are right, they all take some time to get up to full brightness. Many times we turn them off before as we do not leave lights on around the house. My problem is the CFLs are supposed to be long life. I have taken 4 back as they already burned out. Two popped and had a bad smell when I originally turned them on. WalMart reluctantly returned my money. The bright side is my electric bill is about $25 per month less with the CFLs. I also replaced all my Christmas lights with LED type this year. Have not gotten a bill yet. It is another industry sent off shore by Democrats.
The bottom line is, how the Democrat Congress can throw all those UNION workers under the bus? The Unions are fighting back to no avail. The Eco bunch in Congress do not care about the US worker.
WARREN – Union members working in General Electric Corp.’s light plants have launched a “Screw That Bulb” campaign to save their jobs.
The campaign was announced Thursday here and calls on GE to reinvest in technology so workers can compete with compact fluorescent light bulbs, or CFLs, manufactured in China.
Mike, I have read many of your links with interest, from the earlier post. What is your take on the UAW golf resort?
I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years. My personal belief is the UAW failed to assure those promises were properly funded. Now they have this lame VEBA plan that will probably fail. As a life long Union member in 3 different Unions. My question is why didn't the membership see this mess coming back in the 1970s when jobs were being lost by the 1000s. It was not hard to see that a diminishing membership would not be able to support a much larger group of retirees. It is poised to get even worse as the baby boomers start retiring en masse.
Buying out 30 year members will only worsen the situation. A 30 year UAW worker could be as young as 48 years old. Way too young to retire. Yet what kind of job will he get? Nothing like the $100k per year he was making as a UAW lug not assembler. The truth of the matter is most line worker jobs are only a step up from minimum wage burger flippers. Unless the person has the skills and ambition to get further educated they will be on the welfare roles in a short period of time.
The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism. So I agree the UAW leadership has sold the workers out. The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep.
Comments
Since they began operating U.S. auto factories in the early 1980s, the nonunion Asian and European transplants have kept their wages within a few dollars of those paid by the Detroit 3 to UAW work forces.
At the 19-year-old Toyota plant in Georgetown, Ky., workers earn about $25 an hour, plus bonuses, compared with about $27 an hour for UAW workers at the Detroit 3. Last year, Georgetown hourly workers took home $6,300 in bonuses, reflecting the plant's high productivity and Toyota's global profit bonanza.
http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6285673/the-general-forum/toyota-backs-off-wage-- parity-at-new-plants/index.html
But Toyota's newly opened Tundra plant in San Antonio started its unskilled hourly workers at about $15.50 last year. After three years, the rates will increase to about $21 an hour.
Nissan pays workers just under $22 an hour at its Canton, Miss., plant, which opened in 2003. Hyundai's pay rate for production workers in Alabama is close to that. In March, Hyundai said it will expand an on-site engine plant there and hire workers at $13.50 an hour.
The wage differential paid in those plants, while substantial, is only a small part of this competitive threat. The difference in benefit obligations is enormous. The Big Three are committed to paying an ever-growing number of retirees tens of billions in pensions and health care. The current retiree to active worker ratio at GM is 2.5-1.
Korean based Hyundai recently opened a state of the art plant in Alabama. They, of course, will have no retirees any time soon. In any case, they do not provide a defined benefit pension as UAW workers enjoy. Like most of the transplants, Hyundai workers are enrolled in a 401(k) plan–the kind of retirement security that Enron workers once counted on. The transplant bosses also contribute far less toward out of control health care costs than the Big Three are required to cough up.
The Big Three have seen this coming. More than a decade ago they started to spin-off the unionized sector of their parts manufacturing with the long range goal of seeing these outsourced operations drive down labor costs. But when GM spun off Delphi in 1999 they had to agree to a transition period–at least through 2007--where they would continue to guarantee basic obligations they had accepted under previous contracts.
Delphi, following other major parts suppliers, Federal Mogul and Tower Automotive, has now entered bankruptcy and is demanding huge cuts in wages and benefits. That’s not only bad news for the 24,000 UAW members (and several thousand in other unions) at Delphi. If GM is held to its guarantees of Delphi pensions then General Motors itself may threaten to go the bankruptcy route.
"GM is in meltdown mode," said Peter Morici, a professor of business at the University of Maryland. "The company would be in bankruptcy next year if it didn't have so much cash. It has to get labor costs down to below what Nissan and Toyota pay in the southeast U.S."
If General Motors could realize this learned academic’s goal it would have far reaching ramifications for millions of other workers whose boats have risen over the years on the UAW’s wage and benefit tide.
While health care and retirement obligations put the Big Three at a competitive disadvantage in the auto market the entire industry faces other crucial problems.
Consumer debt in the U.S. is near the breaking point. Also facing sky-rocketing fuel costs, tapped out, worried consumers mean the domestic market pie the corporations must share in will almost certainly decline, not expand.
http://www.kclabor.org/uaw_capitulation.htm
That is most likely untrue. Enron employees were forced to invest in Enron Stock. They were not allowed to sell their shares. Enron was a crooked operation from the start.
"GM is in meltdown mode," said Peter Morici, a professor of business at the University of Maryland. "The company would be in bankruptcy next year if it didn't have so much cash. It has to get labor costs down to below what Nissan and Toyota pay in the southeast U.S."
That is exactly what I said. GM workers need to be cut back to $20 per hour for GM to survive. A two tier system is just asking for labor unrest. Wagoner should not have settled for that kind of ignorance. There is nothing wrong with a Union cutting wages when times are tough. I watched the IBEW electricians lose $5 per hour when the price of oil tanked. They went down to $23 per hour and no one left. There were guys lined up to take their job if they did. Supply and demand goes for labor as well as tomatoes.
"Then perhaps they could just BK the NA division and retain corporate HQ and the rest of the company?
That would be the smart thing to do. Then GM has not done anything that seemed all that wise over the last 30 years. GM can build any car in Mexico or So America that they can build here only cheaper. I just don't think they can break out of the repressive UAW contracts and legacy without filing for C11. "
That is the crux. I don't believe even ch 11 would free the three. Why would it ? It hasn't worked for the airlines ? So what we would achieve is an industry that scares the public even more so than today and that takes some doing. A downsized uaw that comes back to exact their retribution as the economy eventually improves. That is the fallacy of the House Republican leadership . That there somehow is a taxpayer gain in a big three bankruptcy. And that would be exactly what ?
They dunno but it sounds kind of conservative so there fore . Lord help us from clueless politicians.
I would not be suprised if today, the total UAW pension payouts each month exceed the combined US citizen gross payroll of all Asian transplants employees combined.
I have read your post and not sure of your point. First and foremost, GM & the UAW should have NEVER entered into a contract that did not set aside money for retirement as the employee worked. That was sort of rectified in 1990 with ERISA. When they say a pension plan is fully funded that means if the company goes broke the retirees and those vested should be covered for their retirement. IF the UAW and GM agreed to pay the retirees health care for life they should have set aside money to do that. If they did not and the company goes broke, the retirees will not get anything but Medicare with their SS when they turn 65. It seems throughout the hearings the only real interest was in covering the workers. How lame is that. If the tax payer is bailing out the automakers we have the right to see something positive. Not just payments to UAW workers for building vehicles no one wants.
Why is it so bad that a new hire only gets $14.50 per hour? My understanding is they can work up to around $25 per hour. That seems like plenty for a menial task job. Calling auto assembly skilled work is a real push. If they have electricians, machinists, and other skilled workers that should be separate. I am sure that my retirement after 37 years in the Union is higher than many people doing the same kind of work I did. When and if they find a good company they will end up making far more than my retirement. One of the Technicians I worked with the last 10 years I was up in the Arctic quit and went to work for Conoco Phillips doing the same work only non union. His gross this year will be over $150k. A good $40k more than he was making working the Teamster job. He will get a retirement from the IBEW that he had 12 years in. Another retirement from the Teamsters with 11 years and however long he stays with Conoco Phillips. There are good jobs if you are not set in your ways. You cannot stay in Flint and expect the work to come to you.
I would not be suprised if today, the total UAW pension payouts each month exceed the combined US citizen gross payroll of all Asian transplants employees combined.
Is that a good thing or bad? I think I read that GM pays pension to about 450,000 people. They only have 266,000 people working WORLD WIDE. General Motors is a FAILURE. They have created a monster and it is in the form of retirees that did not produce long enough to pay for their own retirement. The average retiree should have had at least 45 years in the company to get 50% of their pay. That is about what Ma Bell paid their retirees at age 65. Not a minute before. AT&T is still going strong while GM with their millstone UAW are ready to dissolve.
Well some airlines have failed completely. However, three of the biggest - Continental, United, and Delta, were in BK and successfully restructured and emerged leaner and stronger. So your statement is incorrect.
I don't understand. If the pension is fully funded then GM is not paying anything. The pension should be an annuity covered by it's investments. So GM has (supposedly) no unusual pension costs for its retirees.
Health care is the big enchilada, but the Union has agreed to manage a fund. GM is supposed to pay into the VEBA and the amount is well less than the bailout money they asked for. So PAY the VEBA and then there should be no more discussions about GM's cost for retirees, right? So why is GM still whining about labor inequality? If, as Goldfinger as stated, the UAW is cost-competitive, GM only needs to beg congress for the VEBA amounts (I believe the amount is $7B) and pay it into the fund.
Then all they have to do is make some vehicles that will sell well enough to support their bloated structure, which is their real problem. And since that's not likely to happen they should be cutting big time so that the company size and cost structure mirrors their ability to sell product.
For every dollar that we individually contribute to the plan, up to 6% of our income, the company is committed to contributing an equal value in its stock.
Enron was riding high, and as we saw the company officers and supervisors investing in company stock, we felt assured that our own investments were solid.
There are a few things you need to understand about our § 401(k) plan to understand the impact of Enron’s collapse. First, we are free to make various kinds of investments with our own contributions, but the plan prohibits any employee under age 50 from trading the company’s contributions. In other words, the company puts in its own stock, and until we reach age 50, we hold that stock. Second, until very recently, even after age 50, we could only trade 25% of the company’s contributions per year. Third, I said before that the company is committed to contributing stock equal in value to our cash contributions. The company’s practice, however, has been to purchase blocks of stock at the beginning of the year, which it then uses to match our contributions over the course of the year. In making those contributions, Enron uses the cost of the stock when it purchased it, not the value when it makes the contributions. In good years, this certainly has been advantageous. But over the course of the last year, our employer has been contributing stock worth a fraction of the contribution it is
supposed to be matching.
Tim Ramsey, age 55, 33 years with PGE: $995,000 loss.
Roy Rinard, age 53, 22 years with PGE: $472,000 loss.
Al Kaseweter, age 43, 21 years with PGE: $318,000 loss.
Joe and Diane Rinard, age 47, 12 years with PGE: $300,000-plus loss.
Dave Covington, age 42, 22 years with PGE: $300,000 loss.
Tom Klein, age 55, 30 years with PGE: $188,000 loss.
Mike Schlenker, age 41, 10 years with PGE: $177,000 loss.
Patti Klein, age 47, 24 years with PGE: $132,000 loss.
Sounds like just what GM needs. It can't manage it's debt and is insolvent. It needs to be reorganized and shed debt if it ever wants to become profitable. If it can't ever become profitable then it should fold. If GM fails completely then that is the risk the shareholders have taken.
The only whining I see is from the people here. GM has said they have worked out an equitable solution with the UAW. They have two tiered wages and in 5 years there will be virtually no higher wage UAW employees left. Pension is funded. Health care is going to be taken care of by VEBA. Issue is that TODAY's economic conditions, not 5 years from now, that GM needs these cost to be taken care of. Hopefully the loans/government requirements will force the UAW to accept these future conditions today.
Our family felt the pain of loosing 40+% of our 401K savings when the dot.com bubble burst under the Clinton administration. Loans were made to many of those companies with no real assets and no real profits. Actually that bubble was pretty much created and reached it's zenith under Clinton's reign. Start to finish ! ! ! A lot of people lost all their savings.
Then came the grand finale years of the housing "Bubble". We didn't buy into that one. We were aware of the shoddy loans that were being made and felt fairly certain that eventually there would be multitudes of foreclosures hitting the market and the bubble would burst. It did. However it was not created under the Bush reign. It had it's start under Carter and was nurtured for many years. Give loans to people that simply can not pay them back. Stop discriminating against the poor.
So if we are to blame Bush, we need to be fair. Blame Clinton and all the other involved presidential administrations also. Plenty of blame to go around.
>"The GOP has acted like a drunken sailor on shore leave is what history bears out. This let the free markets decide deregulation, borne of the Reagan era is what we have just seen before our eyes."
Reagan was busy straightening out Carters mess. As you might remember, under Carter, interest rates to buy a house were 18%. To buy a car was 21% and Bank CD's were paying 15%. Unemployment was in the double digits.
If there was a problem with Reagan's policy, why didn't Clinton fix that during his 8 years in office ?
I don't believe for one minute that any bank wanted to loan money that had a high chance of not being repaid. But they were pushed and prodded to do so.
>"Could they perhaps be wrong about the UAW? I believe in personal responsibility and someone needs to fess up. "
Somehow UAW and personal responsibility just don't seem to go together. Where was the "Personal Responsibility" when they continuously strike a failing company. Why didn't each person realize the welfare of the goose might be a lot more important than increasing the size of the egg from that dyeing goose. Where is the "Personal Responsibility" with UAW workers?
Because we do listen to talk radio and watch Fox, CNN, CNBC, C-Span, and follow up on links supplied in the internet, it dawned on us that we had been letting that 401K be managed by people that had their own interest at heart. Much like the UAW workers have done for so long. We took charge of our own affairs and manipulated the 401k to new heights even though we could no longer contribute to it, due to retirement in '96.
Kip
What a misguided view of reality. In 1998 my wife's 401k had a value of $348,000. In early 2000 when others at her work started complaining of losses she decided to check her 401k. Paine Webber had swindled her out of all but $106,000. That was a 70% loss during the CLINTON administration. The people advising the 401k plan at her work transferred all of the employees to a local Financial advisor. Without adding any to the $106k he has brought her back to a current $248k. That is after the current losses.
How have you done over the last 7 years financially? I know the number one and two people in the previous administration have gotten extremely wealthy during the Bush administration. Bill and Hill have made $121 million and Al Gore $100 million. For all the complaining about Bush they have done better than they will do under the next one.
Enough of that. What would you do with the current mess at GM? Given the likelihood that there will be a long road back to profit if ever. Would you expect the UAW to implement the future changes now? Or just keep throwing your children's future at a losing enterprise?
Visteon cuts workers pay by 20%. They also state they reduce hours to 4 days a week. I wonder if those are the same; the report is not clear because the writer is not clear.
Obvious Visteon workers don't have the UAW working for them if they are taking a reduction. If both factors are applied as described above the workers' take gross would be 64% of what they were making. Hard to live on that for many people.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
VERY GOOD perspective on reality. Wagoner and the UAWs' stupidity is the reason GM is in the toilet. Wagoner has had several chances to rectify the situation since 1998. As recently as this summer he could have chained the gates when the UAW walked out and moved the operation South of the Border down Mexico way. He should have filed C11 and gave notice that ALL contracts with the UAW and the dealers were null and void. He has money making operations in other countries. He could build on that and see how interested the UAW was in keeping jobs in the USA.
Is Visteon running under C11 the same as Delphi? That would mean the court could decide on any reduction in wages. Looks like they had a lot more people in 2004.
This was from a 2004 article:
Vehicle parts maker Visteon Corp. said May 6 it signed a seven-year agreement with the United Auto Workers that allows lower wages and benefits for new employees.
Visteon has about 19,500 UAW-represented employees.
These union officials call themselves negotiators.
In the few short months of Gettelinger’s depressing tenure how much negotiating skill did it take for them to say yes when they should have said no as they gave back 70 years of hard won worker gains that are now lost forever?
At Solidarity House these union officials promote the Reuther brothers who set the standard for working class Middle America. For a factual look at what the Reuthers actually thought of their bogus brand of unionism consider the second link below. It is the words of Victor Reuther talking about the new age concessionary UAW leadership at the huge 50th anniversary Rally of the UAW in Flint in 1987. I moderated this large historic event and it was sponsored by dozens of top UAW local leaders from across our nation.
Today defenseless UAW retirees are being treated as America’s irrelevant underclass. They have been sold-out by government politicians, corporate leaders and especially these top union officials.
As many of these elderly retirees suffer from cancer and other serious work related health issues related to auto production their “life and death health care benefits” have been labeled as sacrificial legacy costs. They have become negotiable political pawns.
Retirees legally owned their health care benefits until these union officials went to court to attain the ability to negotiate them away. These negotiated benefits were paid for over a working lifetime of worker earnings deferrals and hourly contributions. Union officials refused to vest these negotiated monies and frittered them away into profoundly less important areas.
Just as significant is the glaring facts that UAW negotiated 30-year auto pensions are overwhelmingly unequal. UAW officials refused to keep pensions up with the cost of living Increases over the years, which allowed older retirees pensions to fall dangerously behind. These UAW retirees who have given so much to our nation have become America’s elderly poor and are tapped-out with living costs.
They have also been denied the pension building tools available to today’s retirees and simply cannot afford to buy healthcare on their meager pensions.
It is an American tragedy that these elderly retirees would be targeted and betrayed.
Share the following links
http://unionreview.com/insights-analysis-uaw-betrays-autoworkers
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page12.htm
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2007/08/11/interview-with-whitey-hale/
http://www.umflint.edu/library/archives/westfall.htm
http://www.speroforum.com/site/print.asp?idarticle=16991
http://michaelwestfall.tripod.com/id6.html
http://www.uawndm.org/ndmportal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=157
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page14.htm
http://michaelwestfall.tripod.com/id17.html
http://michaelwestfall.tripod.com/id50.html
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7G- FRD&q=mike+westfall+uaw&btnG=Search
Surely they offer safety in the 401K plan? Fiduciary obligation by plans mandate that they offer choice. I think you have prudent choice made by people confused. Risk is assumed by opting for returns rather than lower returns for safety. If you concern doesn't offer choice, they are open to law suits.
Reagan was busy straightening out Carters mess. As you might remember, under Carter, interest rates to buy a house were 18%. To buy a car was 21% and Bank CD's were paying 15%. Unemployment was in the double digits.
Lets not forget that Nixon instituted the ill fated wage and price controls. Any economist will tell you these are certain to bring about shortages and surpluses. Inflation was double digit during the Nixon era. Inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods. Hence, price being the rationing mechanism, they go up. Inflation is factored into interest rates. The lenders want you to pay them back with money which has the same purchasing power and reasonable return for their risk. I don't know of anyone who lays blame on the Carter era for inflation. He further cut spending, such as the B1 bomber, at the same time that the Vietnam war was ending its massive spending. You have to also account for govt debt as the so called "crowding effect" in private investing. Hence, you have to factor in the govt debt as an evil which makes private borrowing more expensive and or puts it off all together.
Inflation robs those on fixed incomes of purchasing power. The UAW has a COLA (cost of living adjustment) not to make money, but rather to maintain purchasing power. Its not a raise in the traditional sense, but rather a method to assure the same standard of living. Unfortunately the pension plans don't have this feature. So it might well be that the pension check is a risky situation. Suppose that your on a fixed pension and we have hyperinflation, your screwed. So instead of govt spending and or the FED lowering the interest rate to stimulate the economy, they raise interest rates and govt rein in spending to head off inflation. This was what Carter was trying to do. Its just foolish to think that Carter had any inflationary policies.
Because we do listen to talk radio and watch Fox, CNN, CNBC, C-Span, and follow up on links supplied in the Internet, it dawned on us that we had been letting that 401K be managed by people that had their own interest at heart.
Its like the Realtors when your looking at buying a home. "This is the best time to buy" is just a way for them to try to make commissions. However, it is a great time to buy today (in the current economy) and all those who made home purchases during or at the top of the bubble are surely having regrets. Stock brokers only care about volume and not investors. The higher the volume, the more commissions. They have been known to "churn" those who trust them, like many older folks. They make trades for the sake of their greed/commissions.
Interesting that you mention 401K and investments. While at a leadership training week at the infamous learning center/resort I met some great UAW members. Of course you meet leaders or people who are active. Most large organizations, to my experience, have about 10% who are the active folks. In any case these UAW brothers/sister are very like-minded in that respect. Three of us had similar interests and forged a friendship. This developed into a limited partnership. We were all from different states and each have unique skill sets. More or less we had an investment club, which began small and grew well. Beyond our wildest expectations, we networked ourselves into some real wealth. Last year, we saw this year coming, gave half to charity and were all the better for knowing each other. Alone we were good but together we were amazing. There are some very talented UAW folks out there and not the stereotypical folks conceptually derived by the media. Just look at that article I posted by a UAW brother.
WH: I believe with all my heart that Walter Reuther would turn in his grave, if he could see what past and current leaders have done to his beloved union. It would be fair to say that if Walter were still leading this once great union, it would not be in the shape it is today. The noose is seriously tightening on UAW workers in this country.
The 2-tier wage system you mentioned is a disgrace to our union. This 2-tier system will eventually be reduced to one tier of low-wage workers after the seniority workers have been bought out or retire, with the resulting profits going to the GM Corp.
I believe that is exactly correct. You cannot have people working side by side with huge wage disparity and no hope to attain the top tier. That was a BIG Gettlefinger screw-up.
WH: Mike, this has always been a sore spot with me and should be with every UAW member active or retired.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us. A world where they are insulated from ever worrying about money or losing benefits. They have a far superior contract covering themselves than the workers they represent.
They are covered under the standard UAW contract as we all are, plus they have a second retirement plan, over and above the first one, that is funded by our dues. Their health care plan is superior to the workers they represent. Some of the other perks are they get COLA on their second pensions. They qualify for their second pension after as little as five years on staff. There is never a concession contract for these International Reps. It only gets improved upon. Provisions like car allowance improvements, towing, oil changes, expense accounts, raises on pensions, and benefits each contract are taken for granted by International Reps.
I think the pain and suffering is being experienced only by our active workers and retirees; definitely not by our International Reps. Our International Union Reps definitely need to quit asking our members to give concessions while they continue to add to their nest egg.
As someone that has retired from 46 years as a Union worker, I do understand the frustration. My question is how do you think that GM, Ford or Chrysler can survive and continue to pay these legacy costs? Do you really think that giving someone a pension & Health benefits at 30 years service is realistic? I know the Alaska Teamsters that I retired from eliminated health care benefits a long time ago. They believed it would be too much of a drain on the pension fund. Most Unions are moving the retirement age minimum up to 59 years of age. I stayed to 63 to assure a healthy retirement. Though my wife does not get any pension when I die.
I've seen this first hand. Its not right. Many times the current membership at UAW locals vote no to contracts. Then when they go back to the table to find some change to please/appease the current membership, they go after the retirees and those to be hired. Then those who are yet to be hired (the new hires) have no voice/vote either.
The hourly employees were/are ex ford employees. But Ford took back a lot of employees/plants back in 2005 when the spinoff was failing. Ford sold a bunch of the plants and I am not sure what happened since then. But I think the remaining part of Visteon restructured and is what is having the latest issues.
You do realize that only means that they lowered the wage scale. So that a new hire comes in at a lower rate than prior. You have consistently supported lower wages here on this forum.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us.
You have no clue as to what the UAW international rep is up against and what their demanding job entails. I know one who stressed himself into an early grave. Trust that they are on your side and hate to swallow the bitter pill of a local betraying their retirees. We are the UAW, the membership, not some outside entity. If you don't like something, run for office and change it. Become active in the local and labor friendly organizations.
Q: What kind of impact has the meltdown had on company pension plans?
A: It's hit them hard. Since most companies invest about 60 percent of their pension plans in stocks and about 40 percent in fixed-income assets such as bonds or money market accounts, they've lost significant money.
Adrian Hartshorn, an actuary with business consultant Mercer, a division of Marsh & McLennan Companies Inc. (NYSE:MMC) , has been tracking the pension accounts of companies in the S&P 1500. At the end of 2007 the companies collectively had a surplus in their accounts of $60 billion. As of the end of September, the combined value had fallen to a deficit of $35 billion because of stock market losses.
Without a recovery in the stock market, he said, that deficit could balloon into the hundreds of billions.
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourmoney/retirement/articles/meltdown__markets_effect_- on_retirement_plans.html
Life's a gamble. If we have a depression the retirees will be doing better on their fixed income.
Lets not forget that Nixon instituted the ill fated wage and price controls.
You are trying to side step the issues again. Carter also imposed price controls and wage controls. And the interest rates went through the ceiling under his mismanagement of the Government. The year we got rid of Carter inflation was at 13.5% and we had horrible Unemployment. How many UAW workers lost their jobs during the four year reign of Carter?
Its just foolish to think that Carter had any inflationary policies.
I can tell you the rich got a lot richer during the Carter Presidency. T-Bills were paying 17% interest. That means someone invested in government bills they could make a lot more money than they could building cars. Business suffered immensely during that period. I know I went broke trying to run a farm.
I guess you and I will just have to disagree on which side of the aisle has neutered the working class. As someone that worked my way up from minimum wage to a good wage, I consider business more important to a thriving economy than more government. The bigger the government has gotten the more working classes with the UAW included have fallen behind. When they say redistribution of wealth, better hang onto you wallet. They are looking at the middle class to pay the bills.
You do realize that only means that they lowered the wage scale. So that a new hire comes in at a lower rate than prior. You have consistently supported lower wages here on this forum.
I have asked this before and no one seems to respond. How many years before that person coming in will reach the same wage as the person currently on top? Two tier means two different wage scales in my thinking. Besides it was a statement made by Whitey Hall long time UAW activist being interviewed by UAW retiree Mike Westfall.
Mike, most people don’t know that our UAW International Reps live in a world apart from us.
You have no clue as to what the UAW international rep is up against and what their demanding job entails.
I was assuming the person that made the statement was in the know more than you are. Again it was part of an interview with UAW activists.
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2007/08/11/interview-with-whitey-hale/
You should read it. Gives you some real knowledge on the UAW's treatment of retirees.
Perhaps your right. The legacy is the biggest issue. Its no secret that if the stock market is down, pension plans are underfunded. If the stock market is up, pension plans are over funded. So right now is not a good time and or an unattractive time to sell off.
I've seen it many times. A company and or parts of the company are sold off. Then if the pension plan is over funded the new owners are legally allow to raid the pension plan. Usually its many pensions plans within a company. When they sell off parts of a company they split/spin off these pension plans. I've even seen a company purchased at a fire sale for millions, the pension plan raided for millions, and then the company sold for billions later on (a year or two). There are well funded folks out there that look for this very situation. They even financed the portions of the company they didn't want to a third party. They also honored the UAW contract and the new buyer, UAW and all, (successor clause) are doing beyond well. However, since the market is not doing well and if anything the owner would have to fund as oppose to raid the pension fund, its not going to happen. More than likely is that the pension plan would be dumped off on the taxpayers/PBGC in the end.
So its a pick your poison situation.
I'm good, thanks for asking. Did your wife not have less risky options in her 401K? Don't tell me you were blinded by greed?
Three of those years were 40% plus and none was a loss, since I bailed early last year. fidelity select energy services/fidelity select energy/fedility select natural resources/fedilety select natural gas/fedelity select chemicals were my core holdings. google/hansen/snapple were kind in the longer time frame too
In response to the spiraling inflation of the early 1970s, Richard Nixon became the first president to use price and wage controls during peacetime. The strategy did help to stabilize the economy but proved to be only a temporary fix. Unfortunately, Nixon's attempt to subdue inflation and reduce unemployment resulted in limited goods for consumers and increased business bankruptcies, while doing little to curb joblessness. By the time Nixon resigned in 1974, inflation had reached double digits and the American economy was mired in a deep recession. When inflation reached eighteen percent in 1980, Americans clamored for mandatory price and wage controls. President Jimmy Carter steadfastly refused, stating that peacetime controls during the 1970s had proven a dismal failure.
http://www.answers.com/topic/price-and-wage-controls
You fail to see that inflation is factored into that interest rate and that the purchasing power of that money decreases during inflationary periods. So if I buy a home for $100,000 and sell it for $200,000 in time. Then go to replace it and its selling for $200,000, I have gained nothing.
Meanwhile, the union needs to figure out their tax bill on the golf course.
Is the UAW’s Black Lake in the red? (laborpains.org)
How can the UAW steal from their pension fund? GM holds and pays the UAW pensions.
Looks to me like the township the course is in says it is worth more than what the UAW says its worth. And when it was taken to court the UAW value was taken.
Today it is probably worth half what it was in '07 anyway.
When the UAW claims it as an asset in the Pension trust it has one value (Very High). When they get their tax bill they beat the value down to nothing for the township's tax base. The assessor is probably afraid to say much as they will send the guys with baseball bats around to see him. So how does this UAW resort for the fat cat leaders and UAW cronies benefit Michigan? The UAW members being sheep think the leaders have their best interest in mind. Very foolish thinking.
steve: you mentioned about the UAW and the War of 1812...that happens to be accurate...Walter Reuther's great-great-great-great grandfather was upset at the treatment of the soldiers, and was going to organize a strike unless they received TWO bowls of rice daily, instead of just one bowl...oh, wait, that was the Chinese army, and I may have my geography slightly wrong...did the Chinese fight the British on American soil in 1812, or have I been staying up too late at night watching the marathon Twilight Zone episodes on SciFi network???
I sense my IQ waning rapidly.........................:):):):):)
The Japanese government makes it WAY harder on American car companies , GM,Ford and Chrysler who would love to do business there and build cars in Japan like many of them do in China,South America,etc.
While we give an open door policy to the Japanese auto companies in doing business here,yet Americans will buy Toyotas,Hondas,Lexus,Nissans,etc. never thinking or caring about this.
It is the law. Our Democrat Congress last year past an energy bill that MANDATES all light bulbs sold in 2012 will be CFLs or non incandescent. NO CFLs are made in the USA. That is several 1000 jobs that the so called labor party has forced over seas. As far as domestic cars being sold in Japan. There is no restriction or tariffs on US cars being sold in Japan. THEY DON"T WANT THE CRAP WE BUILD.
MNF
This statement is way overused and is untrue. Wagoner is doing damage control by blaming the issue on today's economy. He is trying to deflect awareness of his own accountability for GM's failures. While the economy is very tough and even the J3 are finding it difficult, they have money in the bank to weather a downturn, and GM does not. Even Ford is doing better.
GM could not make money even while sales were gangbusters with SUVs and trucks. GM is extremely fragile and this is due to the poor decisions, most of them over the past 14 years with Wagoner in charge.
Even if GMs costs get under control, their more fundamental problem is that they are way oversized for the amount of product that appeals to the US consumer and they need to change that. Their "recovery plan" combines a lot of best-case scenarios into a highly optimistic and unlikely set of events
- the US economy WILL improve in the second half of 2009
- truck sales WILL recover
- the Volt WILL be successful and generate halo effects
- the VEBA WILL be funded
- US consumers WILL continue to find GM's products interesting enough to maintain or increase market share
This is a very unlikely set of conditions and if any one of them don't meet optimistic expectations then GM is back in the dumper. So what is the chance that all of these will occur? Why is the $$MM salaried/year Wagoner believing this? I wonder if he even has another contingency plan other than begging for more taxpayer money and blaming the economy?
Yep!
A few weeks ago, On C-Span, some congressman was addressing Palosi and company about this subject.
From what I gathered, all manufacturer and sales of incandesent bulbs will stop in 2012, as you said. The law also states that no CFL bulbs can be manufactured here. Something to do with the EPA and mercury.
Therefore China, the only country manufacturing them, will have us as a captive audiance and be able to charge whatever they wish. That is, unless GE, Phillips, and the rest decide to move their manufacturing facilities off shore or south of the border. How many folks will that put out of a job?
Needless to say, he was addressing deaf ears.
FWIW: I recently replaced one of my outside spotlights with a CFL. What a piece of crap. The long "bulb" extends to the front glass so the reflector is severely hampered. To stand in front of the bulb and look directly at it, it is quite bright, but the light can't make it's way into the yard. To add insult to injury, when first turned on, it is not bright at all. On a warm night it takes a couple of minutes to reach it's full potential. On a cold night it takes 5 minutes or so and never does reach the same brightness as on a warm night. Tried a second bulb and the results were the same. Wonder how much energy is involved getting them up to speed ?
So if we need instant light, we are out of luck. :sick:
Guess we could stock up on incandesents. But that would be cause for the government to create a new department. They could burn fuel riding around at night looking for yards that were properly illuminated and make arrest. :confuse:
Kip
The Center for Union Facts is a secretive front group for individuals and industries opposed to union activities. It is part of lobbyist Rick Berman's family of front groups including the Employment Policies Institute. The domain name www.unionfacts.com was registered to Berman & Co. in May 2005.
In May 2006 the Center for Union Facts, launched its first TV ad campaign. The 30-second spot, running on Fox News and local markets, has "actors posing as workers" saying "sarcastically what they 'love' about unions," like paying dues, union leaders' "fat-cat lifestyles," and discrimination against minorities. The ad campaign cost $3 million, which was raised "from companies, foundations and individuals that Mr. Berman won't identify."
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Union_Facts
From a Center for Union Facts adThe Center for Union Facts, one of lobbyist Rick Berman's front groups, is railing against the Employee Free Choice Act, legislation that would "allow employees at a work place to unionize as soon as a majority signs cards expressing support to join a union." Labor rights advocates say the bill is needed, because of employer intimidation and union-busting tactics. Berman's Center, as the "Employee Freedom Action Committee," says the bill would allow "union bosses" to "stand over workers' shoulders and use coercion." It's launched a $30 million campaign, including radio, television, print and online ads and "a substantial grassroots organizing effort." The "Coalition for a Democratic Workplace," which is comprised of "virtually hundreds of businesses, chambers of commerce and trade associations," is also spending millions to defeat the bill. Both groups are targeting Senators "in what they see as key states," including Maine and New Hampshire. The bill has passed the House and is before the Senate. "The folks behind the ad campaign fear that if Sen. Barack Obama, an Employee Free Choice Act sponsor, is elected president and power shifts to the Democrats in the Senate, the bill will become law."
http://www.prwatch.org/node/7681
foot notes
Berman has lobbied on behalf of pesticide, alcohol and tobacco companies, and against the Americans with Disabilities Act, checkpoints to catch drunk drivers, minimum wage increases, and card-check. A 2006 USA Today article reported that his lobbying firm brings in $10 million per year for his work on ultra-conservative, anti-union clients. Berman has even waged a campaign against Mothers Against Drunk Driving.
In its latest annual report, GM wrote: "Our extensive pension and (post-employment) obligations to retirees are a competitive disadvantage for us." Early this year, GM announced it was ending pensions for 42,000 workers.
But there's a twist to the auto maker's pension situation: The pension plans for its rank-and-file U.S. workers are overstuffed with cash, containing about $9 billion more than is needed to meet their obligations for years to come.
Another of GM's pension programs, however, saddles the company with a liability of $1.4 billion. These pensions are for its executives.
This is the pension squeeze companies aren't talking about: Even as many reduce, freeze or eliminate pensions for workers -- complaining of the costs -- their executives are building up ever-bigger pensions, causing the companies' financial obligations for them to balloon.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06177/701286-28.stm
And for the first time, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, and Nissan have each asked to lease space from the port for these orphan vehicles. They are turning dozens of acres of the nation’s second-largest container port into a parking lot, creating a vivid picture of a paralyzed auto business and an economy in peril.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=1&em
I replaced 56 lights in my home with CFL bulbs. SDG&E had a promotion through WalMart selling different styles at 79 to 99 cents a piece. I figured they would not get any cheaper. You are right, they all take some time to get up to full brightness. Many times we turn them off before as we do not leave lights on around the house. My problem is the CFLs are supposed to be long life. I have taken 4 back as they already burned out. Two popped and had a bad smell when I originally turned them on. WalMart reluctantly returned my money. The bright side is my electric bill is about $25 per month less with the CFLs. I also replaced all my Christmas lights with LED type this year. Have not gotten a bill yet. It is another industry sent off shore by Democrats.
The bottom line is, how the Democrat Congress can throw all those UNION workers under the bus? The Unions are fighting back to no avail. The Eco bunch in Congress do not care about the US worker.
WARREN – Union members working in General Electric Corp.’s light plants have launched a “Screw That Bulb” campaign to save their jobs.
The campaign was announced Thursday here and calls on GE to reinvest in technology so workers can compete with compact fluorescent light bulbs, or CFLs, manufactured in China.
I have read many of your links with interest, from the earlier post. What is your take on the UAW golf resort?
I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years. My personal belief is the UAW failed to assure those promises were properly funded. Now they have this lame VEBA plan that will probably fail. As a life long Union member in 3 different Unions. My question is why didn't the membership see this mess coming back in the 1970s when jobs were being lost by the 1000s. It was not hard to see that a diminishing membership would not be able to support a much larger group of retirees. It is poised to get even worse as the baby boomers start retiring en masse.
Buying out 30 year members will only worsen the situation. A 30 year UAW worker could be as young as 48 years old. Way too young to retire. Yet what kind of job will he get? Nothing like the $100k per year he was making as a UAW lug not assembler. The truth of the matter is most line worker jobs are only a step up from minimum wage burger flippers. Unless the person has the skills and ambition to get further educated they will be on the welfare roles in a short period of time.
The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism. So I agree the UAW leadership has sold the workers out. The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep.