Just because your unaware of it, doesn't mean that it isn't happening. The Toyota/Honda have much more to worry about as Chindia (China and India make up a third of the worlds population) awakens. You seem to think that everyone on the planet lives by the American standard. I respect your opinions and views, but disagree that this evolution and or morphing is just a carefully planned progression.
First, see who owns the media outlets. Then see why a large chemical corporation kept the dairy hormone story off the air. The very same chemical that is banned in Europe and Canada.
Are any of the auto CEO's in the Golden Parachute Club?
First what would a golden parachute be? Most salaried employees today get some kind of money to leave a company. It used to 2 weeks salary I thought but it seems like many get one year of salary. And it is just not the auto companies in this. Last night I was with someone who was let go from an advertising firm due to downsizing. His one year is almost up.
So from this a one year payment would not be considered a golden parachute? Or would it be?
From Wikipedia: A golden parachute is an agreement between a company and an employee (usually upper executive) specifying that the employee will receive certain significant benefits if employment is terminated. Sometimes, certain conditions, typically a change in company ownership, must be met, but often the cause of termination is unspecified. These benefits may include severance pay, cash bonuses, stock options, or other benefits. They are designed to reduce perverse incentives.
So I would say a one year severance package would not be a golden parachute. It would be some kind of pre agreed package. I do not believe any GM execs have this. Would it be in the financials of a company?
Please don't forget that the Microsoft-Apple transaction was not a taxpayer-funded bailout.
Good point! However, my contention is that there is life after a bail out. Unfortunately, Bill Gates is retired. I did meet his father in law, years ago. Great person and his daughter did well. Then too I met/saw Bill at the COMDEX. These new billionaires are a far cry from the greedy wanna be groups of the past. Warren Buffet and some other older ones excluded. Well educated and wanting to make a difference they are the future. I understand they are dealing with the problems in the third world and have their hands full. I respect and support their efforts.
We could go on to the saying. What would a smart man/Bill Gates/Melinda Gates/Warren Buffet do?
If you ever have the chance to see Microsoft, I think you would agree that its a perfect model for future corporations. Then again they have our best and brightest working there.
The Japan's/China's/India's and others seek our markets. Think about it and what the implications of shipping all of the jobs overseas. American jobs fuel this economy and are that goose that lays the golden egg.
That is my point. GM WAS the goose laying the golden egg. The UAW in their greed wanted more of the egg than GM products could sustain. Now they are in bankruptcy for all practical purposes.
As those folks in China see consumer products that ordinary Americans enjoy, they will want the same
I would say a portion of them are already buying products and cars. China went from no personal automobiles in 1985 to the second largest auto market. They have passed up number 2 Japan. Some one in China must be making enough to buy a lot of cars. They will pass up the US sooner than later. They may be real close this year.
Apple was bailed out by Microsoft. Since then they went on to beat down the famous Sony Walkman brand and are the leader in MP3 players/IPOD's and look to get their IPHONE market going. Another IAMERICAN story of beating the odds after a bail out.
Do you think ANY of those Apple electronic devices was built by American workers? So tell me how a Chinese built iPhone is an American triumph?
At this point in time the UAW built vehicles are becoming nearly insignificant. The US consumer is not king of the World any longer. Countries like China soon to be number ONE, Russia, Brazil, India are picking up the slack in Auto sales. This year we will buy less than 20% of the world's vehicles. While that is still a lot. It is 40% less than last year. Far worse than the rest of the World.
Morgan Stanley now expects global car sales to decline 0.3 percent this year to 58.1 million vehicles after forecasting an expansion of 3.5 percent at the beginning of the year.
China will still account for much of the sales increase as its economy heads for a sixth straight year of double-digit growth. But with so much resting on that market, competition is set to intensify just as fast.
It would/should be on a publicly traded company. I looked and it seemed like a waste of time, way too many PDF files. Normally, I do look to see if the corporate officers are either buying or selling stock and or their options.
Thats a great story. Glad it all worked out and the best of luck.
My company sent me off to train. Factory training and they paid for it. Upon completion we set to make this $500,000 five axis machine tool work. As a team we developed a post, used best practice methods/processes, and a host of other proprietary issues. They told me that if we got it going "people/engineers/programs would be lined up to use it". That meant work. So was/is the case. While at the factory I did see the competition and or the Japanese counterpart. He was excellent. However, they are years behind as our team is much more enterprising and we intend to keep it that way. By their own admissions, they are not capable of making the complex parts in a short time we now make. As a team we did more and exceed the companies/customers expectations. All we needed is respect for one another and a company that fosters innovation by bringing people together. This is a world class a process in progress, which has the potential to bring in more work.
I have other interests too. I do community service and am glad that my company encourages it. They also subsidize my gym membership. Time to be with my family and vacations are important. Both my company and union (UAW) have a relationship which has allowed me to raise a family in comfort. Its all about relationships.
They did their part and I did mine. This year I'm coming in with a purpose. I'm aiming to kick it up a couple of notches. I've invested well and have done more than enough to provide for the future, but refuse to coast. This is all about ego in some respect. Playing within the system, doing the right thing, respecting others, and we will all be winners. Barring injury or bad luck, we/I'm giong to be a winner.
Tonight the Senate did not see fit to take care of autoworkers. They’d rather union bust and hand out money to companies like AIG, so they can take spa retreats and give out golden parachutes.
They’d rather watch Detroit fall further and further and watch Michigan’s unemployment rate go higher and higher.
For Wall St. they asked few questions and wrote larger checks. For Main St. they demand concessions and czars and oversight.
Pensions and health care and worker protection were demonized all in the name of business. The pension that keeps people like my grandfather able to pay for care in their golden years. The health care that most Americans would work their asses off for. The worker protection no one has anymore, but sure could use in this day and age.
Tonight my government could have helped and impacted those who don’t wear suits and instead will leave them out in the cold.
Tonight the missteps of an industry were held up as a symbol of the free market and it’s workers thrown to the wolves despite GOP Senators welcoming foreign counterparts with open arms in the South.
Tonight we told American workers they mattered less than the 100% Japanese government funding of plants in our states.
I’m not one for bailouts. I’m not one to always scream ‘BUY AMERICAN.’
But I am one who supports local jobs, local manufacturing, and local indstury.
I also support the need for unions in a world of WalMarts.
Tonight I stand shoulder to shoulder with American workers and hope we weather the storm to come.
Is Free Trade a Good Thing for Haiti? Deforested lands, farmers forced out to make "Free Trade" zones, no self-sufficiency, no sustainable agriculture, dependence on imports and a population growth that is estimated at 110% higher than world average and 174% higher than the United States.
Amid riots and death's, UN forces, led by Brazilian peacekeeping forces and humanitarian food aid, Haiti has overthrow it's leader, in a country where most of it's workers make less than $2 a day. It's a simple fact, with worldwide food inflation, the people in Haiti cannot afford to eat.
When you wonder why we as labor should care, take note that many former US employers in the textile industry have opened up shop in this land, and many in Haiti itself, shut their doors when human rights organizations persisted in campaigns for these workers. These companies who contracted clothing for the likes of Nike and Disney, shut their Haitian factories and headed to countries with even lower regard for labor and human rights, such as China.
So you agree with me that a government bailout is a terrible idea. That's great!
There is ONE glaring problem with Detroit and the Big Three, however. The management stinks. They shoved Detroit (and YOU) down the Road of Greed starting in the 1990's by foisting off huge gas-sucking pigs on Americans when they knew it was shortsighted and stupid.
So...management has to go. New blood is required. Don't feel sorry for them, they'll be fine and they will never have to file for unemployment.
Barack Obama already showed us the way. As he has said all along, American car manufacturers have to go green and offer up affordable vehicles made for the new rules of the twenty-first century. No more heavy steel tanks, no more gas-guzzling pigs capable of pulling your house off its foundations.
Obama has offered tax incentives, help with a medical plan, and other things to the automakers in exchange for MODERN thinking. This would be the sensible course.
These automakers are in serious trouble, and they will need even MORE help. But anything beyond an emergency life ring should wait until our new President takes office. Barack Obama is undoubtably angry right now about a host of things, and the major one is the monumental mess left to him by the previous Administration. It's appalling. It is unprecedented, only comparable to Herbert Hoover and FDR, perhaps.
Believe this: Obama is going to kick some butts and take names after January 20, as well he should. These automakers deserve our help if for nothing else but the common good. But like when the United States entered World War 2, these factories and the people who run them need to change.
They must adapt to current conditions and not only catch up to the Japanese in alternative power, but surpass them. Our homeboys in Detroit should offer up smart autos that working Americans can afford, and in alternative-power versions everyday folks can use.
Now do the math.
Between the autoworkers, the dealerships, and the small-to-medium size businesses who rely on the Big Three, it adds up to more than three million jobs. Assuming only an average of $200 per week paid out on a typical unemployment claim for 26 weeks, this adds up to $15 billion dollars for three million people. This doesn't include any extensions, which under an Obama presidency would be likely.
Wasn't that the minimum amount the automakers were asking for in loans just to stay afloat? Maybe we should let them go broke and pay out the money in unemployment claims.
They must adapt to current conditions and not only catch up to the Japanese in alternative power, but surpass them. Our homeboys in Detroit should offer up smart autos that working Americans can afford, and in alternative-power versions everyday folks can use.
And bankruptcy reorganization is the only way to get from here to there, as I know you'll agree. Without bankruptcy, there can be no rebirth. But when I tell you that, I know I'm preaching to the converted. Welcome!
So now we have a carefully crafted multi-year conspiracy. Yeah, I can buy that - Wagoner and Gettelfinger and probably the rest of top D3 and UAW brass must have been their enemies payroll for last thirty years, too. How else would you explain the never ending string of those brilliant product coming of their line? How could I miss that - it was so obvious. Thanks - now I know the whole truth.
UAW brass is on the rank and file memberships payroll.
D3 are on the shareholders payroll.
I just don't understand. Why is the UAW responsible for the business of GM? What responsibility does either party have to the shareholders/rank and file? These are two different things. Mutually exclusive things which bear little if any co-relation. Any sane and rational person could see that this has become a political witch hunt. The facts are as such. AIG is treated like family, even as they embarrass the entire business community and all but party the bail out money away. GM is the one looking for the bail out and not the UAW. The UAW has gone above and beyond in prior years/contracts to restructure contracts in a manner as to aid the GM management. So why does GM have problems getting a fraction of the bail out money given to the sub prime folks? Lets just state the obvious. It stands to reason that the UAW didn't support these GOP folks in southern states. All of these great transplants were subsidized by these states and therefore are being supported by tax dollars. Implicitly or explicitly why should I and or anyone want to pay for some companies expenses? Corporate welfare steals from the consumer/taxpayer and has no place in the free market. If they seek to build stadiums/arenas/corporations, they should do so on their own and not seek taxpayers to share the risk. Last time I checked entrepreneur meant risk taker and is entitled to the spoils/profits.
Or perhaps you would like to blame the whole sub prime mess on the tellers at the banks? Bombard me with some logic and or rational thought process. I can get the spin from the corporate owned mainstream media.
>If that were true, what makes you think people here deserve more than those living somewhere else who can do the same job for less? Who are we to deny them that opportunity?
Really? All the hard work spent in research and development amount to nothing? Just because some bugger somewhere has the skills to do it for cheaper means we go ahead and give him all the technological secrets? I am not denying them developing on their own. But to share all technological secrets just so that we can get products cheaper is a very short sighted viewpoint.
Ever heard of "Competitive edge"? In your scenario, what is the US's competitive edge once they know the technological fundamentals that catapulted the US to such heights?
>It's like soda pop. You can cork it and shake it, but one day is has to get open.
Sure. But does not mean we go ahead and start opening all the cans prematurely for them. If somebody is worth it, they will uncork it themselves.
And bankruptcy reorganization is the only way to get from here to there, as I know you'll agree. Without bankruptcy, there can be no rebirth. But when I tell you that, I know I'm preaching to the converted. Welcome!
Thats Obama's call. He is the forward thinking brilliant Commander and Chief hired by the American people to fix it. So if your not going to get Bill Gates out of retirement, perhaps you ought to consider alterations to your ideology.
Both my company and union (UAW) have a relationship which has allowed me to raise a family in comfort. Its all about relationships.
What works in Texas does not always work in Michigan. One big reason "Right to Work". The Union knows that they have to maintain a good balance between management and labor or the REAL workers will drop out of the Union. UAW control over the big 3 is totally lopsided in favor of labor. That is not healthy and the current condition of the D3 is evidence that what I am saying is right. During my 46 years in the Union and especially the last 37 years in the Teamsters. We were always cognizant of the financial health of the company. Our negotiations were based on that knowledge. We many times knew more about the company finances than the company negotiators. Our goal was to keep the golden goose fat and happy. UAW has failed in that respect.
"Maybe we should let them go broke and pay out the money in unemployment claims."...is that we are not talking Chapter 7 liquidation, we are talking about Chapter 11 reorganization, which includes dumping of debt and old contracts that are simply unable to be paid...
SOME will go on unemployment, but eventually that unemployment will end and they will have to find jobs in something other than UAW work...the others will keep on working making cars, just not to the amount that they did before...a few million less, keeping in line with their market share...
Over the last decade, for many UAW jobs lost, there were Japanese automaker jobs that employed someone else who did not work in the auto industry prior to the transplants...so, employment is not, per se, disappearing, just being "shifted" from union states to non-union states...
The only reason we see all the screaming is that the UAW screams louder and has the ear of the media...how many auto jobs were created by Toy, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Mercedes and BMW moving into the South to make their vehicles???...what we are watching is an evolution, and the UAW does not believe in evolution, they believe in the Divine Right of Jobs to be theirs, reagrdless of their pay or the quality of the product they make...that era will end, and none too soon...
Michigan may have been critical in the previous century, but Michigan will go the way of the dinosaur, and it is all their own fault...they saw this coming, and they shut their eyes, hoping that the "bad man in the dark closet" will go away...he is here to stay, and he is making a better product than they do...and all they want is to keep the Jobs Bank going so they can be paid to do nothing...
Change is coming, all right, and it is about to wake up the union from its deep slumber of 50 years...and its about damn time...
You understood NOTHING from what I said. NOTHING - ZIP. NADA. Please, read back a few pages. I will try again in a plain language.
I said nothing about giving anyone anything, other than opportunity to better themselves. I was exactly saying we used to have a competitive edge against others both in technology and education, thus we could consume more than others. But we got fat (literally), lazy and stupid, and even more important, others remained lean, got smarter and kept working, that's why others are getting the jobs that used to "belong" to us.
Nobody gave them anything, perhaps except opportunity that is associated with capitalism (the one that does not give anything forever), and they used it. We would rather watch footbal, get fat, blame everybody but ourselves and demand protections for "our" jobs, "our" products, or "our" privilidges.
I just don't understand. Why is the UAW responsible for the business of GM?
Are you serious???? After months on this board you still don't know??? Do you even read anything here? Let's try again then: It is called "non-competitive labor cost". If car brand A costs 20K to make and sells for 21K, the company makes 1K/car. If car brand B costs 22K to make but it has to firesell it for 18K then the company loses 4K per car. If coincidentally company B overall cost of labor is 3K per car more than company A and all other costs are comparable, then that cost the labor is directly responsible for Company B loss. If removed, Company B could add $1000 to the cost of its car in refinements and improvements so it can actually charge the same or maybe more than Company A and start making money. That cost is direct link between Company B success or demise. It's not all labor's fault, as it's really the management who should make sure those costs are in line, but if the labor chooses to cover its ears and eyes in mud and use its power to simply milk the beast to its death, you cannot then shed the responsibility from them.
Or perhaps you would like to blame the whole sub prime mess on the tellers at the banks?
Perhaps not on tellers, but on those mortgage officers who would tell people to lie on their applications to get approved - yeah, I would.
But, to be clear - I never said it was "all" their fault. If you read me, you would find out I actually put majority of blame (60%) on the management and minority (30%) on UAW with marginal participation (10%) of politicians.
Now, what's going to happen if SC and other southern states go begging for bailout money? Will the northern (UAW backed) senators tell them to let BMW bail them out? With all the incentives SC gave to BMW ($150M - link), how come it has the nation's third-worst unemployment rate?
I just don't understand. Why is the UAW responsible for the business of GM?
This sums up the problem of the UAW in a nutshell.
The UAW worries only about themselves - the easiest possible work with the highest possible compensation. The UAW views the company's health as a management problem.
At most non-union companies and many unionized companies, all of the employees see their part in the success of the company.
Are you serious???? After months on this board you still don't know??? Do you even read anything here? Let's try again then: It is called "non-competitive labor cost". If car brand A costs 20K to make and sells for 21K, the company makes 1K/car. If car brand B costs 22K to make but it has to firesell it for 18K then the company loses 4K per car. If coincidentally company B overall cost of labor is 3K per car more than company A and all other costs are comparable, then that cost the labor is directly responsible for Company B loss. If removed, Company B could add $1000 to the cost of its car in refinements and improvements so it can actually charge the same or maybe more than Company A and start making money. That cost is direct link between Company B success or demise. It's not all labor's fault, as it's really the management who should make sure those costs are in line, but if the labor chooses to cover its ears and eyes in mud and use its power to simply milk the beast to its death, you cannot then shed the responsibility from them.
Unfortunately the Toyota/Honda darlings of the business schools aren't doing too well either. As the prevailing wages go in any given area, the transplants must compete with the local wages, the non union folks get a boost to their pay due to there being competing market forces out there seeking labor too. You have to be aware that the UAW has on many occasions made concessions. The two tier wage scale, the early retirements, and others to make GM more competitive. At some point management has to fess up to their transgressions. Just because your from some elite country club lineage doesn't mean you have the skills and or ability to run a major corporation. Besides, the six sigma/lean mentality has been in the Big Three for years now. The Toyota/Honda executives are bailing by the day as they see the CEO orgy going on in this nation.
Perhaps not on tellers, but on those mortgage officers who would tell people to lie on their applications to get approved - yeah, I would.
Some history from the past. Deregulate and they will come, supply side, Reagan Legacy. As if the S&L didn't teach us anything. This will go down in history as ENRON era. One could write an entire book on these con artist impersonating capitalist. Imagine a billion dollar stadium built by taxpayer for an egotistical owner of the Cowboys. Perhaps you would like to get one of those valet parking, fast food cook, or any of the small wage jobs. These jobs will tax the county social services, just as the Walmart jobs cost $2000 per employee in social services. Where are the savings? Its a hidden cost, just as are those super toxic dumps of years ago.
There is a big difference between having one or two bad years and standing on brink of collapse. Just in case you didn't notice. I totally agree with you on the management - it did morph into fraternity "who not what" you know thing.
I never said it's all UAW. What I I have a problem with is refusal to acknowledge any problem on part of the labor organizations. I simply protest "iIt's all the Wall Street/country club fat cat crowd to blame and Gettelfinger is practically a saint for fighting for our free Viagra prescriptions" attitudes.
Now, what's going to happen if SC and other southern states go begging for bailout money?
I'm doing my part buying UTW (United Tobacco Workers) SC-grown tobacco products. Maybe the SC government needs to give these people a stake - to give each unemployed person 10 acres, a leftover FEMA trailer, some seed, and a book on how to farm.
the easiest possible work with the highest possible compensation.
That by definition is the CEO. So tell me why the CEO earns more? Then tell me why the CEO's in America earn more worldwide? Then tell me if you would like to be a rank and file union member or a CEO?
I'm doing my part buying UTW (United Tobacco Workers) SC-grown tobacco products.
I've always wondered, if they don't want people smoking/dipping in certain cities. Why do those same cities allow the sale of tobacco products? Then if they got everyone to quit, how would they replace those tobacco taxes?
how many auto jobs were created by Toy, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Mercedes and BMW moving into the South to make their vehicles???...
Funny that Japan/Germany/Korea think of America as a third world country with labor markets to be exploited. Walmart, got the message when they saw themselves in the courts. Their actions may have been tolerated in some other countries, but the legal system has them shaking here. Outsource them Walmart jobs! Its only a matter of time for the rebirth of unionism/UAW. Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop. Just remember how far and how long to the right we were.
Just as soon as the masses learned to read they had to invent public relations/spin. Did big business want everyone to read? Now they have consolidated the media and have many a country bumpkin snowed. When will you see that the CEO is but a human as yourself and that these aristocrats don't have your best interests in mind. If it was as you say there would be no UAW cars on the streets and these brilliant CEO's wouldn't be begging for welfare. Maybe their stupidity comes from inbreeding within the same ole country club crowd?
There is a big difference between having one or two bad years and standing on brink of collapse.
The lost decade! How long was Japans recession/depression? How much debt did their govt take on due to their superior lean manufacturing? As we go does the world. So they lost ten years and are going to take another beating? Maybe they can have a kaizen event and make it all go away. Or maybe if they close their eyes and click their heels three times the good times will be back.
The package, which may be in place as early as March, bears the hallmarks of Japan's last big bank bail-out between the late 1990s and 2005, when the government spent billions of yen on bad loans to keep the country's banking system afloat.
More poppycock using faulty reasoning and ignoring the fact that Ford and GM were on their to restructuring their businesses over the last 7 years until the grossly overpaid gurus in the financial and banking sectors caused the credit crunch.
Don't start with old Detroit auto companies and the "deep south" crap. The REAL outrage is the financial sector ( Like AIG, etc) that continues to reward it's hot dog gurus with outrageous bonuses and salaries and no questions asked for $150- $350 - $700 - $800 BILLION.
Yes, the "Big Three" could have tried to anticipate the market and get workers to work for less, and yada-yada-yada sooner. But what about the grossly overpaid financial guys at Freddie, Fannie, Lehman Bros. , etc who went bust and got Hundreds of BILLIONS with hardly a question and no congressional 3rd degree. This auto thing is more of a smoke screen to confuse and draw attention away from the greed, stupidity, and irresponsibility of the financial world, and the good old boys in congress who just had to help out those buddies!
Go back to school. Everything you learned about business and finance was bogus and designed to let run away greed happen like it just did in the financial sector. Derivatives, credit default swaps, what a bunch of rip off BS!
In the end your reasoning only factors unemployment and silly little issues. Restructuring and offering early retirement for years now. All the while there the legacy issue and four letters which will cost the American taxpayer a Cadillac each. Thats PGBC and it most certainly ups the ante to those on the fools errand of doing away with Detroit automakers.
Funny that Japan/Germany/Korea think of America as a third world country with labor markets to be exploited.
Would you prefer that these countries not have any North American manufacturing presence? Would you rather see all imports built in their respective countries of origin?
Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop.
I'm not sure what you're expecting from Obama. I think that he'll govern from the center because that's what smart Democrats do if they want to be re-elected. He's a sharp, savvy politician, & he'll do his best to avoid Bill Clinton's fate in 1994: a Republican Congressional landslide halfway through Clinton's 1st term.
My hunch is that the loudest complaints against the Obama administration will come not from right-wing Republicans but from left-wing Democrats unhappy about Obama's middle-of-the road economic policies. Many of these critics will be the same lefties who called Bill Clinton a pseudo-Republican back in 1995-96. But that didn't bother Clinton, who went on to become the 1st Democratic President in 50 years to serve 2 full terms, & Obama won't let it bother him either.
More poppycock using faulty reasoning and ignoring the fact that Ford and GM were on their to restructuring their businesses over the last 7 years until the grossly overpaid gurus in the financial and banking sectors caused the credit crunch.
You shouldn't put too much weight on that argument - particularly when you're talking about GM. Even without the credit crunch, GM would have been in deep doo-doo because its product mix was vulnerable to high fuel prices.
Gas prices bottomed out in early 1999 & began rising later that year. By 2000, gas prices were already high enough to be an issue in that year's Democratic primary; facing a challenge from Bill Bradley, VP Al Gore wanted President Clinton to bring prices down by releasing oil from the strategic reserve.
In short, no auto industry decision-maker should have been surprised by the disappearance of cheap gas.
So tell me why the CEO earns more? Then tell me why the CEO's in America earn more worldwide? Then tell me if you would like to be a rank and file union member or a CEO?
CEO earns more because the job requires more skill, more knowledge than a UAW job. It affects tens of thousands of people, probably millions. The CEO's decisions directly affect billions of dollars.
I don't disagree however that the CEOs, Wagoner in particular, are grossly overpaid. But the position is still worth far more than a union job.
The other problem is that even at a $10M salary, $10M x 1 CEO = $10M. For 100K union jobs, $25K in excessive compensation each (as an example) = $2.5B per year. So while it is easy to gripe about CEO salaries, the real drag on the company is the compensation of the average employees if that compensation is well above the competitors.
Japan does not think of America as a third world country for labor - As the OECD report in this link (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/31/7/29880166.pdf) shows, US labor productivity is significantly higher than Japan, and everyone here (in Tokyo) knows it.
Unfortunately, productivity tends to differ for different industries. In the Auto industry it is possible that Japan is better (I do not have any specific data to prove this, but I have a friend who works for Toyota and was based in the US for some time - he felt that the factory level labor in the US was not as skilled in the use of numbers as their Japanese counterparts, and this was a critical requirement for Toyota's TQM system, since it is heavily dependent on statistical analysis), but in some other services (e.g. Finance, Marketing, software) Japan lags far behind the US - And thus "imports" such workers from the US. Go to the Financial district in Tokyo, and you will see (a number of Americans in senior positions).
By the way, I drive a US made Acura TL, and it is flawless. So even in the Auto industry, US labor is competitive. I cannot say the same about UAW protected labor.....
In the Auto industry it is possible that Japan is better (I do not have any specific data to prove this, but I have a friend who works for Toyota and was based in the US for some time - he felt that the factory level labor in the US was not as skilled in the use of numbers as their Japanese counterparts, and this was a critical requirement for Toyota's TQM system, since it is heavily dependent on statistical analysis),
FYI: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.
>"Or perhaps you would like to blame the whole sub prime mess on the tellers at the banks? Bombard me with some logic and or rational thought process. I can get the spin from the corporate owned mainstream media."
I understand your thought here, but can't agree with it 100%..
Bank tellers don't make the wages and bennefits of UAW workers. It has been mentioned several times on this forum that there are many UAW workers with college educations. Seems a bit ironic that a college grad would choose to assemble cars. Unless, of course the money is better. They make about the same wage as my wife with her BSRN degree and countless courses in continued education, and her dealing with human life. Her bennefits are no where close to UAW workers.
Biggest problem with the "Sub Prime Mess" started with Jimmy Carter. Another bad idea of his. Seems he felt every person should own a house, whether they could afford it or not. As Americans, they were "Entitled" to the good life. He was and still is a disgrace to this great state.
That idea was nurtured by democrats through the years and the republicans did nothing to change it. In the early years of the Clinton administration, mortgage companies were seriously "ENCOURAGED" to do even more to loosen lending requirements, so that low income folks that couldn't meet the requirements were not discrimenated against. Didn't matter whether or not they could afford the loan. So they got the loans through creative means, such as, nothing down, (because they could not or would not save enough to put down) balloon notes, interest only, variable interest rates, and high interest rates. They were set up to fail, by the feds and the lending institutions.
In a nut shell, this Sub Prime mess is the child spawned by poor management of our government over a long period of time. The only ones to actually reap bennefits were the loan officers at the banks. Very similar to the D3 situation in that those at the top reap the bennefits while the company/country goes in the toilet. Many loans should not have made, and D3 management should not have signed the greedy UAW contracts that they did. They were setting up the company and the country to fail.
Least we not forget that many of the failing mortgages are from UAW workers that lost their jobs, because the UAW leadership as well as corporate management refused to see the light at the end of the tunnel as being a train coming at them.
To his credit, George Bush did bring sub prime lending to light in the first part of his first term, and again in the first part of his second term. To his discredit, he didn't do anything about it.
Someone said earlier that Obama is upset at the mess he is inheriting from Bush. Obama needs to look at the whole picture of just how this came about.
Would you prefer that these countries not have any North American manufacturing presence? Would you rather see all imports built in their respective countries of origin?
Not at all. In the perfect world, we have to make this assumption, capital should move to its most efficient use. The more competition, the better for the consumer. Then that being said. Labor being a subset of capital, it should be allowed to move to its most efficient use, just to be consistent. Therefore, this whole immigration hoax is nothing but a silly ploy to avoid the issue.
If one looks at the Carolina's and their furniture jobs being moved overseas. Hundreds of thousands of jobs moving to their more efficient use. Then some media hype about Benz/Michelin bring in a few thousand jobs as some kind of parity in kind. Do the math. Why would they have an issue with illegals taking their jobs? Why are they going to scapegoat these illegal, if any, for the loss of jobs? I light of the fact that they have less than a 2% Hispanic population, they are but not coming to grips with the issue and orchestrating a clever public relations ploy.
So there is this perfect world. Yokels and bumpkins being conned. Just come right out with it and tell them the truth. Its those people in China taking your jobs and not illegal aliens. Don't you expect personal accountability from your elected representative? Is that elected representative more obligated to corporate lobby's or the voter? One could certainly deduct that the elected representative and special interest share special relationship.
Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop.
The forward thinking Obama, will have to clean up this mess. Corporations and people are going to have to come to grips with the facts. Some of those so called assets on the balance sheet are nothing but liabilities. Call them derivatives or whatever, they are but fecal matter. They need to be wrote off and or paid. Past practice is that they have only down graded enough to for tax purposes. When your paying debt, your not going to fuel an economy. Govt will have to go into more debt to assure that GDP stays the stable. Fact is that faux accounting practices and or legal but deceptive metrics are used in many corporations to please the number folks on Wall Street. Can we agree to look at the entire balance sheet/financial statement and be honest for starters? Then we should fess up to the fact that govt is buying the liabilities labeled as assets to keep the house of cards from falling in. In that perfect world these are the abuses of the past and a complete meltdown of the capitalist system. Taxpayers (the very same UAW auto workers included) are being forced to buy liabilities labeled as assets. Wealth didn't just disappear, it was never there. They were putting liabilities down as assets all along. Now rich uncle Sam (the taxpayer) which includes UAW members is picking up the tab. Now you don't mind if uncle Sam has a meal and drink, since he is treating? They want catering for Wall St and a pot luck for the UAW. Now is that fair? Just who did start this slipper slope of bailing out folks?
In a nut shell, this Sub Prime mess is the child spawned by poor management of our government over a long period of time.
My friend, are you listening to the corporate mainstream media again? I agree that this was a direct result of the need to fill a void left by the dot com bust. But, lets look at Bush in 2002. Granted he was well meaning.
I'm here to celebrate National Homeownership Month, because I believe owning a home is an essential part of economic security.
But I believe owning something is a part of the American Dream, as well. I believe when somebody owns their own home, they're realizing the American Dream.
We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. That is our goal. It is a realistic goal. But it's going to mean we're going to have to work hard to achieve the goal, all of us. And by all of us, I mean not only the federal government, but the private sector, as well.
And so what are the barriers that we can deal with here in Washington? Well, probably the single barrier to first-time homeownership is high down payments. People take a look at the down payment, they say that's too high, I'm not buying. They may have the desire to buy, but they don't have the wherewithal to handle the down payment. We can deal with that. And so I've asked Congress to fully fund an American Dream down payment fund which will help a low-income family to qualify to buy, to buy.
The second barrier to ownership is the lack of affordable housing. There are neighborhoods in America where you just can't find a house that's affordable to purchase, and we need to deal with that problem. The best way to do so, I think, is to set up a single family affordable housing tax credit to the tune of $2.4 billion over the next five years to encourage affordable single family housing in inner-city America.
The third problem is the fact that the rules are too complex. People get discouraged by the fine print on the contracts. They take a look and say, well, I'm not so sure I want to sign this. There's too many words. (Laughter.) There's too many pitfalls. So one of the things that the Secretary is going to do is he's going to simplify the closing documents and all the documents that have to deal with homeownership.
If the unemployment compensation is as much as they pay here in CA, they probably have a lot of free loaders that only work long enough to collect then get themselves fired or laid off. This is a common failure in our system. It looks like that SC Governor wants to see some responsible statistics and weed out the free loaders. How many are legitimately going out each week and applying for a job. Sitting on the computer and applying should not count. The one time in my life I collected I had to get 3 signed cards a week showing who I applied with for a job.
Oh our good friends at the National Review. The dynamic think tank. Perhaps we could ask them how they stayed in business?
Buckley said in 2005 that the magazine had lost about $25 million over 50 years.
NASCAR its publicity, more or less like these large corporations naming stadiums/arenas. Besides, the one dollar per overtime worked is a good thing. It discourages the automakers from robbing the workforce of the "Family Time" a part of "Family Values".
They want catering for Wall St and a pot luck for the UAW. Now is that fair?
No, it's not. There's no such thing as a fair bailout, no matter who benefits from it. (I know that I won't get an argument from you on this.) It's too bad that our political leadership isn't smart enough & brave enough to tell us that bailouts won't fix what's wrong with us - that we'll be far better off down the road if we endure a couple of painful years now. I think that this happens to be what most Americans believe, but our politicos don't have the guts to come out & say this. They'd rather use our money - what's left of it - to create a fleeting illusion of well-being.
But what about the grossly overpaid financial guys at Freddie, Fannie, Lehman Bros. , etc who went bust and got Hundreds of BILLIONS with hardly a question and no congressional 3rd degree.
That does not require a degree in economics to figure out. Look who is running the banking committee in Congress. Barney Frank and his boyfriend that was in Fannie Mae along with Chris Dodd and Obama that were close to Frank Raines that bilked FM & FM out of a $100 million while lying about the profit that was NOT there. Bush and McCain were shot down by Congress when they tried regulating Fannie Mae.
Not that it is really related to an Auto industry that has been mismanaged for decades. The Credit Crunch should have come about 30 years ago. Giving credit to anyone that looked like they were breathing IS the problem. The auto industry sold too many vehicles to people that had no business buying them. Now the market needs to correct itself. If the UAW goes away they have NO ONE to blame but their own greed.
As with any large organization, your never going to get agreement as to whats a worthy cause. The NASCAR money is not dues collected, but rather a side agreement. The automaker is obligated to pay $1 for each employee that works overtime. Hence, they discourage overtime and or hiring the additional employee. Both the automaker and UAW get a little publicity too. The rank and file may want the overtime is more than likely the argument. Here you get into the cost of hiring the additional marginal employee as oppose to working the current employee overtime. It might even be a wash as a tired and or spent employee may if fact be less productive.
Then again, the media, didn't provide the details as I have here in this very forum. Now and prior, I have addressed this very issue. They, the media, if anything are late. I went out of my way to express this very issue with the UAW years ago and they were above board and explained it in detail. This same media has painted a very ugly picture of the UAW and is bias to say the least. I am being kind in stating that. Fact is its pathetic that they don't expose their real loyalties and who owns them. The FOX NEWS bovine case speaks for itself and is an indictment on the media bias.
The interesting factoid is that the UAW retains assets worth $1.2 billion. That's a big "strike fund."
I would be curious if the UAW pays full wages to the members when they are on strike. Or do they even pay as much as Unemployment. I really doubt they would give a fraction of their wages. They don't want to jeopardize the UAW brass having their own golf course.
The strikes that have cost General Motors Corp. more than $1.2 billion so far have left the United Auto Workers union largely unscathed.
At a cost of $12 million or less, the UAW has shut down virtually all the automaker's North American assembly plants and nearly emptied its dealers' showrooms around the country.
Negotiators could have a settlement this week, limiting the impact of the month-old walkout by 9,200 workers at two Flint GM plants and the ensuing layoffs of 119,000 nonstriking U.S. auto workers. And in the meantime, the union's record-size war chest remains intact. ... (this release was after 1 month of strike)
So how were the domestics supposed to change the work rules and pay of the UAW? $12 million UAW payout vs. $1.2 billion GM loss. So if the UAW had $1.2 billion then they could have lasted until GM lost $120 billion. (please check my math!) This strike lasted less than 2 months. It could have gone on many more months and the UAW fund would still have money left. And this was only a local Flint strike!!!!
The UAW currently represents 73,000 GM workers at 82 U.S. facilities nationwide, including assembly and parts plants and warehouses. If workers go on strike, they will be paid $200 a week plus medical benefits from the UAW's strike fund. The union had more than $800 million in that fund as of last November, according to the UAW's Web site.
Comments
Just because your unaware of it, doesn't mean that it isn't happening. The Toyota/Honda have much more to worry about as Chindia (China and India make up a third of the worlds population) awakens. You seem to think that everyone on the planet lives by the American standard. I respect your opinions and views, but disagree that this evolution and or morphing is just a carefully planned progression.
First, see who owns the media outlets. Then see why a large chemical corporation kept the dairy hormone story off the air. The very same chemical that is banned in Europe and Canada.
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html
http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/video-fox-news-monsanto-cover-up-bovine.h- tml
Second, watch that "Darwin's Nightmare" documentary.
http://www.metacritic.com/video/titles/darwinsnightmare
First what would a golden parachute be? Most salaried employees today get some kind of money to leave a company. It used to 2 weeks salary I thought but it seems like many get one year of salary. And it is just not the auto companies in this. Last night I was with someone who was let go from an advertising firm due to downsizing. His one year is almost up.
So from this a one year payment would not be considered a golden parachute? Or would it be?
From Wikipedia:
A golden parachute is an agreement between a company and an employee (usually upper executive) specifying that the employee will receive certain significant benefits if employment is terminated. Sometimes, certain conditions, typically a change in company ownership, must be met, but often the cause of termination is unspecified. These benefits may include severance pay, cash bonuses, stock options, or other benefits. They are designed to reduce perverse incentives.
So I would say a one year severance package would not be a golden parachute. It would be some kind of pre agreed package. I do not believe any GM execs have this. Would it be in the financials of a company?
Good point! However, my contention is that there is life after a bail out. Unfortunately, Bill Gates is retired. I did meet his father in law, years ago. Great person and his daughter did well. Then too I met/saw Bill at the COMDEX. These new billionaires are a far cry from the greedy wanna be groups of the past. Warren Buffet and some other older ones excluded. Well educated and wanting to make a difference they are the future. I understand they are dealing with the problems in the third world and have their hands full. I respect and support their efforts.
We could go on to the saying. What would a smart man/Bill Gates/Melinda Gates/Warren Buffet do?
If you ever have the chance to see Microsoft, I think you would agree that its a perfect model for future corporations. Then again they have our best and brightest working there.
That is my point. GM WAS the goose laying the golden egg. The UAW in their greed wanted more of the egg than GM products could sustain. Now they are in bankruptcy for all practical purposes.
As those folks in China see consumer products that ordinary Americans enjoy, they will want the same
I would say a portion of them are already buying products and cars. China went from no personal automobiles in 1985 to the second largest auto market. They have passed up number 2 Japan. Some one in China must be making enough to buy a lot of cars. They will pass up the US sooner than later. They may be real close this year.
Apple was bailed out by Microsoft. Since then they went on to beat down the famous Sony Walkman brand and are the leader in MP3 players/IPOD's and look to get their IPHONE market going. Another IAMERICAN story of beating the odds after a bail out.
Do you think ANY of those Apple electronic devices was built by American workers? So tell me how a Chinese built iPhone is an American triumph?
At this point in time the UAW built vehicles are becoming nearly insignificant. The US consumer is not king of the World any longer. Countries like China soon to be number ONE, Russia, Brazil, India are picking up the slack in Auto sales. This year we will buy less than 20% of the world's vehicles. While that is still a lot. It is 40% less than last year. Far worse than the rest of the World.
Morgan Stanley now expects global car sales to decline 0.3 percent this year to 58.1 million vehicles after forecasting an expansion of 3.5 percent at the beginning of the year.
China will still account for much of the sales increase as its economy heads for a sixth straight year of double-digit growth. But with so much resting on that market, competition is set to intensify just as fast.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/01/business/auto.php
It would/should be on a publicly traded company. I looked and it seemed like a waste of time, way too many PDF files. Normally, I do look to see if the corporate officers are either buying or selling stock and or their options.
So you agree with me that a government bailout is a terrible idea. That's great!
Thats a great story. Glad it all worked out and the best of luck.
My company sent me off to train. Factory training and they paid for it. Upon completion we set to make this $500,000 five axis machine tool work. As a team we developed a post, used best practice methods/processes, and a host of other proprietary issues. They told me that if we got it going "people/engineers/programs would be lined up to use it". That meant work. So was/is the case. While at the factory I did see the competition and or the Japanese counterpart. He was excellent. However, they are years behind as our team is much more enterprising and we intend to keep it that way. By their own admissions, they are not capable of making the complex parts in a short time we now make. As a team we did more and exceed the companies/customers expectations. All we needed is respect for one another and a company that fosters innovation by bringing people together. This is a world class a process in progress, which has the potential to bring in more work.
I have other interests too. I do community service and am glad that my company encourages it. They also subsidize my gym membership. Time to be with my family and vacations are important. Both my company and union (UAW) have a relationship which has allowed me to raise a family in comfort. Its all about relationships.
They did their part and I did mine. This year I'm coming in with a purpose. I'm aiming to kick it up a couple of notches. I've invested well and have done more than enough to provide for the future, but refuse to coast. This is all about ego in some respect. Playing within the system, doing the right thing, respecting others, and we will all be winners. Barring injury or bad luck, we/I'm giong to be a winner.
09 is mine
They’d rather watch Detroit fall further and further and watch Michigan’s unemployment rate go higher and higher.
For Wall St. they asked few questions and wrote larger checks. For Main St. they demand concessions and czars and oversight.
Pensions and health care and worker protection were demonized all in the name of business. The pension that keeps people like my grandfather able to pay for care in their golden years. The health care that most Americans would work their asses off for. The worker protection no one has anymore, but sure could use in this day and age.
Tonight my government could have helped and impacted those who don’t wear suits and instead will leave them out in the cold.
Tonight the missteps of an industry were held up as a symbol of the free market and it’s workers thrown to the wolves despite GOP Senators welcoming foreign counterparts with open arms in the South.
Tonight we told American workers they mattered less than the 100% Japanese government funding of plants in our states.
I’m not one for bailouts. I’m not one to always scream ‘BUY AMERICAN.’
But I am one who supports local jobs, local manufacturing, and local indstury.
I also support the need for unions in a world of WalMarts.
Tonight I stand shoulder to shoulder with American workers and hope we weather the storm to come.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367- x15487
Amid riots and death's, UN forces, led by Brazilian peacekeeping forces and humanitarian food aid, Haiti has overthrow it's leader, in a country where most of it's workers make less than $2 a day. It's a simple fact, with worldwide food inflation, the people in Haiti cannot afford to eat.
When you wonder why we as labor should care, take note that many former US employers in the textile industry have opened up shop in this land, and many in Haiti itself, shut their doors when human rights organizations persisted in campaigns for these workers. These companies who contracted clothing for the likes of Nike and Disney, shut their Haitian factories and headed to countries with even lower regard for labor and human rights, such as China.
http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/free-trades-working-victims-2-haitis.html-
There is ONE glaring problem with Detroit and the Big Three, however. The management stinks. They shoved Detroit (and YOU) down the Road of Greed starting in the 1990's by foisting off huge gas-sucking pigs on Americans when they knew it was shortsighted and stupid.
So...management has to go. New blood is required. Don't feel sorry for them, they'll be fine and they will never have to file for unemployment.
Barack Obama already showed us the way. As he has said all along, American car manufacturers have to go green and offer up affordable vehicles made for the new rules of the twenty-first century. No more heavy steel tanks, no more gas-guzzling pigs capable of pulling your house off its foundations.
Obama has offered tax incentives, help with a medical plan, and other things to the automakers in exchange for MODERN thinking. This would be the sensible course.
These automakers are in serious trouble, and they will need even MORE help. But anything beyond an emergency life ring should wait until our new President takes office. Barack Obama is undoubtably angry right now about a host of things, and the major one is the monumental mess left to him by the previous Administration. It's appalling. It is unprecedented, only comparable to Herbert Hoover and FDR, perhaps.
Believe this: Obama is going to kick some butts and take names after January 20, as well he should. These automakers deserve our help if for nothing else but the common good. But like when the United States entered World War 2, these factories and the people who run them need to change.
They must adapt to current conditions and not only catch up to the Japanese in alternative power, but surpass them. Our homeboys in Detroit should offer up smart autos that working Americans can afford, and in alternative-power versions everyday folks can use.
Now do the math.
Between the autoworkers, the dealerships, and the small-to-medium size businesses who rely on the Big Three, it adds up to more than three million jobs. Assuming only an average of $200 per week paid out on a typical unemployment claim for 26 weeks, this adds up to $15 billion dollars for three million people. This doesn't include any extensions, which under an Obama presidency would be likely.
Wasn't that the minimum amount the automakers were asking for in loans just to stay afloat? Maybe we should let them go broke and pay out the money in unemployment claims.
http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_news/2008/12/13/2209038-a-straight-talk-solu- tion-for-the-automobile-crisis
And bankruptcy reorganization is the only way to get from here to there, as I know you'll agree. Without bankruptcy, there can be no rebirth. But when I tell you that, I know I'm preaching to the converted. Welcome!
2018 430i Gran Coupe
UAW brass is on the rank and file memberships payroll.
D3 are on the shareholders payroll.
I just don't understand. Why is the UAW responsible for the business of GM? What responsibility does either party have to the shareholders/rank and file? These are two different things. Mutually exclusive things which bear little if any co-relation. Any sane and rational person could see that this has become a political witch hunt. The facts are as such. AIG is treated like family, even as they embarrass the entire business community and all but party the bail out money away. GM is the one looking for the bail out and not the UAW. The UAW has gone above and beyond in prior years/contracts to restructure contracts in a manner as to aid the GM management. So why does GM have problems getting a fraction of the bail out money given to the sub prime folks? Lets just state the obvious. It stands to reason that the UAW didn't support these GOP folks in southern states. All of these great transplants were subsidized by these states and therefore are being supported by tax dollars. Implicitly or explicitly why should I and or anyone want to pay for some companies expenses? Corporate welfare steals from the consumer/taxpayer and has no place in the free market. If they seek to build stadiums/arenas/corporations, they should do so on their own and not seek taxpayers to share the risk. Last time I checked entrepreneur meant risk taker and is entitled to the spoils/profits.
Or perhaps you would like to blame the whole sub prime mess on the tellers at the banks? Bombard me with some logic and or rational thought process. I can get the spin from the corporate owned mainstream media.
Really? All the hard work spent in research and development amount to nothing? Just because some bugger somewhere has the skills to do it for cheaper means we go ahead and give him all the technological secrets? I am not denying them developing on their own. But to share all technological secrets just so that we can get products cheaper is a very short sighted viewpoint.
Ever heard of "Competitive edge"? In your scenario, what is the US's competitive edge once they know the technological fundamentals that catapulted the US to such heights?
>It's like soda pop. You can cork it and shake it, but one day is has to get open.
Sure. But does not mean we go ahead and start opening all the cans prematurely for them. If somebody is worth it, they will uncork it themselves.
Thats Obama's call. He is the forward thinking brilliant Commander and Chief hired by the American people to fix it. So if your not going to get Bill Gates out of retirement, perhaps you ought to consider alterations to your ideology.
What works in Texas does not always work in Michigan. One big reason "Right to Work". The Union knows that they have to maintain a good balance between management and labor or the REAL workers will drop out of the Union. UAW control over the big 3 is totally lopsided in favor of labor. That is not healthy and the current condition of the D3 is evidence that what I am saying is right. During my 46 years in the Union and especially the last 37 years in the Teamsters. We were always cognizant of the financial health of the company. Our negotiations were based on that knowledge. We many times knew more about the company finances than the company negotiators. Our goal was to keep the golden goose fat and happy. UAW has failed in that respect.
SOME will go on unemployment, but eventually that unemployment will end and they will have to find jobs in something other than UAW work...the others will keep on working making cars, just not to the amount that they did before...a few million less, keeping in line with their market share...
Over the last decade, for many UAW jobs lost, there were Japanese automaker jobs that employed someone else who did not work in the auto industry prior to the transplants...so, employment is not, per se, disappearing, just being "shifted" from union states to non-union states...
The only reason we see all the screaming is that the UAW screams louder and has the ear of the media...how many auto jobs were created by Toy, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Mercedes and BMW moving into the South to make their vehicles???...what we are watching is an evolution, and the UAW does not believe in evolution, they believe in the Divine Right of Jobs to be theirs, reagrdless of their pay or the quality of the product they make...that era will end, and none too soon...
Michigan may have been critical in the previous century, but Michigan will go the way of the dinosaur, and it is all their own fault...they saw this coming, and they shut their eyes, hoping that the "bad man in the dark closet" will go away...he is here to stay, and he is making a better product than they do...and all they want is to keep the Jobs Bank going so they can be paid to do nothing...
Change is coming, all right, and it is about to wake up the union from its deep slumber of 50 years...and its about damn time...
You understood NOTHING from what I said. NOTHING - ZIP. NADA. Please, read back a few pages. I will try again in a plain language.
I said nothing about giving anyone anything, other than opportunity to better themselves. I was exactly saying we used to have a competitive edge against others both in technology and education, thus we could consume more than others. But we got fat (literally), lazy and stupid, and even more important, others remained lean, got smarter and kept working, that's why others are getting the jobs that used to "belong" to us.
Nobody gave them anything, perhaps except opportunity that is associated with capitalism (the one that does not give anything forever), and they used it. We would rather watch footbal, get fat, blame everybody but ourselves and demand protections for "our" jobs, "our" products, or "our" privilidges.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Are you serious???? After months on this board you still don't know??? Do you even read anything here? Let's try again then: It is called "non-competitive labor cost". If car brand A costs 20K to make and sells for 21K, the company makes 1K/car. If car brand B costs 22K to make but it has to firesell it for 18K then the company loses 4K per car. If coincidentally company B overall cost of labor is 3K per car more than company A and all other costs are comparable, then that cost the labor is directly responsible for Company B loss. If removed, Company B could add $1000 to the cost of its car in refinements and improvements so it can actually charge the same or maybe more than Company A and start making money. That cost is direct link between Company B success or demise. It's not all labor's fault, as it's really the management who should make sure those costs are in line, but if the labor chooses to cover its ears and eyes in mud and use its power to simply milk the beast to its death, you cannot then shed the responsibility from them.
Or perhaps you would like to blame the whole sub prime mess on the tellers at the banks?
Perhaps not on tellers, but on those mortgage officers who would tell people to lie on their applications to get approved - yeah, I would.
But, to be clear - I never said it was "all" their fault. If you read me, you would find out I actually put majority of blame (60%) on the management and minority (30%) on UAW with marginal participation (10%) of politicians.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In South Carolina, it's just about ended. WISTV
Now, what's going to happen if SC and other southern states go begging for bailout money? Will the northern (UAW backed) senators tell them to let BMW bail them out? With all the incentives SC gave to BMW ($150M - link), how come it has the nation's third-worst unemployment rate?
But why? I'm a classical liberal - just like you.
This sums up the problem of the UAW in a nutshell.
The UAW worries only about themselves - the easiest possible work with the highest possible compensation. The UAW views the company's health as a management problem.
At most non-union companies and many unionized companies, all of the employees see their part in the success of the company.
Unfortunately the Toyota/Honda darlings of the business schools aren't doing too well either. As the prevailing wages go in any given area, the transplants must compete with the local wages, the non union folks get a boost to their pay due to there being competing market forces out there seeking labor too. You have to be aware that the UAW has on many occasions made concessions. The two tier wage scale, the early retirements, and others to make GM more competitive. At some point management has to fess up to their transgressions. Just because your from some elite country club lineage doesn't mean you have the skills and or ability to run a major corporation. Besides, the six sigma/lean mentality has been in the Big Three for years now. The Toyota/Honda executives are bailing by the day as they see the CEO orgy going on in this nation.
Perhaps not on tellers, but on those mortgage officers who would tell people to lie on their applications to get approved - yeah, I would.
Some history from the past. Deregulate and they will come, supply side, Reagan Legacy. As if the S&L didn't teach us anything. This will go down in history as ENRON era. One could write an entire book on these con artist impersonating capitalist. Imagine a billion dollar stadium built by taxpayer for an egotistical owner of the Cowboys. Perhaps you would like to get one of those valet parking, fast food cook, or any of the small wage jobs. These jobs will tax the county social services, just as the Walmart jobs cost $2000 per employee in social services. Where are the savings? Its a hidden cost, just as are those super toxic dumps of years ago.
I never said it's all UAW. What I I have a problem with is refusal to acknowledge any problem on part of the labor organizations. I simply protest "iIt's all the Wall Street/country club fat cat crowd to blame and Gettelfinger is practically a saint for fighting for our free Viagra prescriptions" attitudes.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I'm doing my part buying UTW (United Tobacco Workers) SC-grown tobacco products.
That by definition is the CEO. So tell me why the CEO earns more? Then tell me why the CEO's in America earn more worldwide? Then tell me if you would like to be a rank and file union member or a CEO?
I've always wondered, if they don't want people smoking/dipping in certain cities. Why do those same cities allow the sale of tobacco products? Then if they got everyone to quit, how would they replace those tobacco taxes?
Funny that Japan/Germany/Korea think of America as a third world country with labor markets to be exploited. Walmart, got the message when they saw themselves in the courts. Their actions may have been tolerated in some other countries, but the legal system has them shaking here. Outsource them Walmart jobs! Its only a matter of time for the rebirth of unionism/UAW. Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop. Just remember how far and how long to the right we were.
Just as soon as the masses learned to read they had to invent public relations/spin. Did big business want everyone to read? Now they have consolidated the media and have many a country bumpkin snowed. When will you see that the CEO is but a human as yourself and that these aristocrats don't have your best interests in mind. If it was as you say there would be no UAW cars on the streets and these brilliant CEO's wouldn't be begging for welfare. Maybe their stupidity comes from inbreeding within the same ole country club crowd?
The lost decade!
How long was Japans recession/depression? How much debt did their govt take on due to their superior lean manufacturing? As we go does the world. So they lost ten years and are going to take another beating? Maybe they can have a kaizen event and make it all go away. Or maybe if they close their eyes and click their heels three times the good times will be back.
The package, which may be in place as early as March, bears the hallmarks of Japan's last big bank bail-out between the late 1990s and 2005, when the government spent billions of yen on bad loans to keep the country's banking system afloat.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/dec/30/japan-banks-recession
Don't start with old Detroit auto companies and the "deep south" crap.
The REAL outrage is the financial sector ( Like AIG, etc) that continues to reward it's hot dog gurus with outrageous bonuses and salaries and no questions asked for $150- $350 - $700 - $800 BILLION.
Yes, the "Big Three" could have tried to anticipate the market and get workers to work for less, and yada-yada-yada sooner. But what about the grossly overpaid financial guys at Freddie, Fannie, Lehman Bros. , etc who went bust and got Hundreds of BILLIONS with hardly a question and no congressional 3rd degree.
This auto thing is more of a smoke screen to confuse and draw attention away from the greed, stupidity, and irresponsibility of the financial world, and the good old boys in congress who just had to help out those buddies!
Go back to school. Everything you learned about business and finance was bogus and designed to let run away greed happen like it just did in the financial sector. Derivatives, credit default swaps, what a bunch of rip off BS!
In the end your reasoning only factors unemployment and silly little issues. Restructuring and offering early retirement for years now. All the while there the legacy issue and four letters which will cost the American taxpayer a Cadillac each. Thats PGBC and it most certainly ups the ante to those on the fools errand of doing away with Detroit automakers.
Yesterday you did great on the CEO job hopping. Today you have an interesting observation as well. I envy your abilities.
Would you prefer that these countries not have any North American manufacturing presence? Would you rather see all imports built in their respective countries of origin?
Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop.
I'm not sure what you're expecting from Obama. I think that he'll govern from the center because that's what smart Democrats do if they want to be re-elected. He's a sharp, savvy politician, & he'll do his best to avoid Bill Clinton's fate in 1994: a Republican Congressional landslide halfway through Clinton's 1st term.
My hunch is that the loudest complaints against the Obama administration will come not from right-wing Republicans but from left-wing Democrats unhappy about Obama's middle-of-the road economic policies. Many of these critics will be the same lefties who called Bill Clinton a pseudo-Republican back in 1995-96. But that didn't bother Clinton, who went on to become the 1st Democratic President in 50 years to serve 2 full terms, & Obama won't let it bother him either.
We'll just have to wait & see what happens.
You shouldn't put too much weight on that argument - particularly when you're talking about GM. Even without the credit crunch, GM would have been in deep doo-doo because its product mix was vulnerable to high fuel prices.
Gas prices bottomed out in early 1999 & began rising later that year. By 2000, gas prices were already high enough to be an issue in that year's Democratic primary; facing a challenge from Bill Bradley, VP Al Gore wanted President Clinton to bring prices down by releasing oil from the strategic reserve.
In short, no auto industry decision-maker should have been surprised by the disappearance of cheap gas.
CEO earns more because the job requires more skill, more knowledge than a UAW job. It affects tens of thousands of people, probably millions. The CEO's decisions directly affect billions of dollars.
I don't disagree however that the CEOs, Wagoner in particular, are grossly overpaid. But the position is still worth far more than a union job.
The other problem is that even at a $10M salary, $10M x 1 CEO = $10M. For 100K union jobs, $25K in excessive compensation each (as an example) = $2.5B per year. So while it is easy to gripe about CEO salaries, the real drag on the company is the compensation of the average employees if that compensation is well above the competitors.
Unfortunately, productivity tends to differ for different industries. In the Auto industry it is possible that Japan is better (I do not have any specific data to prove this, but I have a friend who works for Toyota and was based in the US for some time - he felt that the factory level labor in the US was not as skilled in the use of numbers as their Japanese counterparts, and this was a critical requirement for Toyota's TQM system, since it is heavily dependent on statistical analysis), but in some other services (e.g. Finance, Marketing, software) Japan lags far behind the US - And thus "imports" such workers from the US. Go to the Financial district in Tokyo, and you will see (a number of Americans in senior positions).
By the way, I drive a US made Acura TL, and it is flawless. So even in the Auto industry, US labor is competitive. I cannot say the same about UAW protected labor.....
FYI: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.
I understand your thought here, but can't agree with it 100%..
Bank tellers don't make the wages and bennefits of UAW workers. It has been mentioned several times on this forum that there are many UAW workers with college educations. Seems a bit ironic that a college grad would choose to assemble cars. Unless, of course the money is better. They make about the same wage as my wife with her BSRN degree and countless courses in continued education, and her dealing with human life. Her bennefits are no where close to UAW workers.
Biggest problem with the "Sub Prime Mess" started with Jimmy Carter. Another bad idea of his. Seems he felt every person should own a house, whether they could afford it or not. As Americans, they were "Entitled" to the good life. He was and still is a disgrace to this great state.
That idea was nurtured by democrats through the years and the republicans did nothing to change it. In the early years of the Clinton administration, mortgage companies were seriously "ENCOURAGED" to do even more to loosen lending requirements, so that low income folks that couldn't meet the requirements were not discrimenated against. Didn't matter whether or not they could afford the loan. So they got the loans through creative means, such as, nothing down, (because they could not or would not save enough to put down) balloon notes, interest only, variable interest rates, and high interest rates. They were set up to fail, by the feds and the lending institutions.
In a nut shell, this Sub Prime mess is the child spawned by poor management of our government over a long period of time. The only ones to actually reap bennefits were the loan officers at the banks. Very similar to the D3 situation in that those at the top reap the bennefits while the company/country goes in the toilet. Many loans should not have made, and D3 management should not have signed the greedy UAW contracts that they did. They were setting up the company and the country to fail.
Least we not forget that many of the failing mortgages are from UAW workers that lost their jobs, because the UAW leadership as well as corporate management refused to see the light at the end of the tunnel as being a train coming at them.
To his credit, George Bush did bring sub prime lending to light in the first part of his first term, and again in the first part of his second term. To his discredit, he didn't do anything about it.
Someone said earlier that Obama is upset at the mess he is inheriting from Bush. Obama needs to look at the whole picture of just how this came about.
Kip
Not at all. In the perfect world, we have to make this assumption, capital should move to its most efficient use. The more competition, the better for the consumer. Then that being said. Labor being a subset of capital, it should be allowed to move to its most efficient use, just to be consistent. Therefore, this whole immigration hoax is nothing but a silly ploy to avoid the issue.
If one looks at the Carolina's and their furniture jobs being moved overseas. Hundreds of thousands of jobs moving to their more efficient use. Then some media hype about Benz/Michelin bring in a few thousand jobs as some kind of parity in kind. Do the math. Why would they have an issue with illegals taking their jobs? Why are they going to scapegoat these illegal, if any, for the loss of jobs? I light of the fact that they have less than a 2% Hispanic population, they are but not coming to grips with the issue and orchestrating a clever public relations ploy.
So there is this perfect world. Yokels and bumpkins being conned. Just come right out with it and tell them the truth. Its those people in China taking your jobs and not illegal aliens. Don't you expect personal accountability from your elected representative? Is that elected representative more obligated to corporate lobby's or the voter? One could certainly deduct that the elected representative and special interest share special relationship.
Newton's third law of motion has just happened and come 01-20-09 your jaw is going to drop.
The forward thinking Obama, will have to clean up this mess. Corporations and people are going to have to come to grips with the facts. Some of those so called assets on the balance sheet are nothing but liabilities. Call them derivatives or whatever, they are but fecal matter. They need to be wrote off and or paid. Past practice is that they have only down graded enough to for tax purposes. When your paying debt, your not going to fuel an economy. Govt will have to go into more debt to assure that GDP stays the stable. Fact is that faux accounting practices and or legal but deceptive metrics are used in many corporations to please the number folks on Wall Street. Can we agree to look at the entire balance sheet/financial statement and be honest for starters? Then we should fess up to the fact that govt is buying the liabilities labeled as assets to keep the house of cards from falling in. In that perfect world these are the abuses of the past and a complete meltdown of the capitalist system. Taxpayers (the very same UAW auto workers included) are being forced to buy liabilities labeled as assets. Wealth didn't just disappear, it was never there. They were putting liabilities down as assets all along. Now rich uncle Sam (the taxpayer) which includes UAW members is picking up the tab. Now you don't mind if uncle Sam has a meal and drink, since he is treating? They want catering for Wall St and a pot luck for the UAW. Now is that fair? Just who did start this slipper slope of bailing out folks?
My friend, are you listening to the corporate mainstream media again? I agree that this was a direct result of the need to fill a void left by the dot com bust. But, lets look at Bush in 2002. Granted he was well meaning.
I'm here to celebrate National Homeownership Month, because I believe owning a home is an essential part of economic security.
But I believe owning something is a part of the American Dream, as well. I believe when somebody owns their own home, they're realizing the American Dream.
We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. That is our goal. It is a realistic goal. But it's going to mean we're going to have to work hard to achieve the goal, all of us. And by all of us, I mean not only the federal government, but the private sector, as well.
And so what are the barriers that we can deal with here in Washington? Well, probably the single barrier to first-time homeownership is high down payments. People take a look at the down payment, they say that's too high, I'm not buying. They may have the desire to buy, but they don't have the wherewithal to handle the down payment. We can deal with that. And so I've asked Congress to fully fund an American Dream down payment fund which will help a low-income family to qualify to buy, to buy.
The second barrier to ownership is the lack of affordable housing. There are neighborhoods in America where you just can't find a house that's affordable to purchase, and we need to deal with that problem. The best way to do so, I think, is to set up a single family affordable housing tax credit to the tune of $2.4 billion over the next five years to encourage affordable single family housing in inner-city America.
The third problem is the fact that the rules are too complex. People get discouraged by the fine print on the contracts. They take a look and say, well, I'm not so sure I want to sign this. There's too many words. (Laughter.) There's too many pitfalls. So one of the things that the Secretary is going to do is he's going to simplify the closing documents and all the documents that have to deal with homeownership.
http://www.hud.gov/news/speeches/presremarks.cfm
Back to the golfing, you can add NASCAR, airlines and radio stations to the litany:
The UAW’s Money-Squandering Corruptocracy (National Review)
The interesting factoid is that the UAW retains assets worth $1.2 billion. That's a big "strike fund."
You speak as if the Asian automakers were not expanding the gas guzzler manufacturing base. Tundra's and Titan's being tooled and plants built.
http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/operations/manufacturing/manu_location/- tmmtx.html
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/News%20Stories/NissanOpens.htm
Buckley said in 2005 that the magazine had lost about $25 million over 50 years.
NASCAR its publicity, more or less like these large corporations naming stadiums/arenas. Besides, the one dollar per overtime worked is a good thing. It discourages the automakers from robbing the workforce of the "Family Time" a part of "Family Values".
both of whom make six-figure salaries
thats vague, is it $100,000 or $999,999.99
No, it's not. There's no such thing as a fair bailout, no matter who benefits from it. (I know that I won't get an argument from you on this.) It's too bad that our political leadership isn't smart enough & brave enough to tell us that bailouts won't fix what's wrong with us - that we'll be far better off down the road if we endure a couple of painful years now. I think that this happens to be what most Americans believe, but our politicos don't have the guts to come out & say this. They'd rather use our money - what's left of it - to create a fleeting illusion of well-being.
That does not require a degree in economics to figure out. Look who is running the banking committee in Congress. Barney Frank and his boyfriend that was in Fannie Mae along with Chris Dodd and Obama that were close to Frank Raines that bilked FM & FM out of a $100 million while lying about the profit that was NOT there. Bush and McCain were shot down by Congress when they tried regulating Fannie Mae.
Not that it is really related to an Auto industry that has been mismanaged for decades. The Credit Crunch should have come about 30 years ago. Giving credit to anyone that looked like they were breathing IS the problem. The auto industry sold too many vehicles to people that had no business buying them. Now the market needs to correct itself. If the UAW goes away they have NO ONE to blame but their own greed.
Then again, the media, didn't provide the details as I have here in this very forum. Now and prior, I have addressed this very issue. They, the media, if anything are late. I went out of my way to express this very issue with the UAW years ago and they were above board and explained it in detail. This same media has painted a very ugly picture of the UAW and is bias to say the least. I am being kind in stating that. Fact is its pathetic that they don't expose their real loyalties and who owns them. The FOX NEWS bovine case speaks for itself and is an indictment on the media bias.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=41355
I would be curious if the UAW pays full wages to the members when they are on strike. Or do they even pay as much as Unemployment. I really doubt they would give a fraction of their wages. They don't want to jeopardize the UAW brass having their own golf course.
The strikes that have cost General Motors Corp. more than $1.2 billion so far have left the United Auto Workers union largely unscathed.
At a cost of $12 million or less, the UAW has shut down virtually all the automaker's North American assembly plants and nearly emptied its dealers' showrooms around the country.
Negotiators could have a settlement this week, limiting the impact of the month-old walkout by 9,200 workers at two Flint GM plants and the ensuing layoffs of 119,000 nonstriking U.S. auto workers. And in the meantime, the union's record-size war chest remains intact. ... (this release was after 1 month of strike)
So how were the domestics supposed to change the work rules and pay of the UAW? $12 million UAW payout vs. $1.2 billion GM loss. So if the UAW had $1.2 billion then they could have lasted until GM lost $120 billion. (please check my math!) This strike lasted less than 2 months. It could have gone on many more months and the UAW fund would still have money left. And this was only a local Flint strike!!!!
The UAW currently represents 73,000 GM workers at 82 U.S. facilities nationwide, including assembly and parts plants and warehouses. If workers go on strike, they will be paid $200 a week plus medical benefits from the UAW's strike fund. The union had more than $800 million in that fund as of last November, according to the UAW's Web site.