Overseas automakers, most notably Toyota Motor, all endorse some form of federal aid to keep General Motors (GM, Fortune 500), Chrysler LLC and possibly Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) out of bankruptcy.
If you think about it, you'll soon understand the logic behind Toyota's position. A post-bankruptcy GM, with its legacy costs under control & under the leadership of a new & more aggressive management team, will be a much more fearsome competitor. Do you think that Toyota wants that? Of course not. Toyota likes GM just the way it is now: bloated & slow to respond.
Toyota finds the current competitive landscape very much to its liking & doesn't want radical, meaningful change, which can only come from bankruptcy reorganization.
Are you saying the dental clinics in Mexico are subsidized by their government? If so I would like to see some data. I happen to know if you do not have health care insurance in Mexico YOU are on your own. Cash up front or go out and die in the street. There are probably many reasons why medical attention and drugs are cheaper in Mexico. I would say it is mostly our government sticking their nose into health care. Drugs made in the USA are many times 1/10th the price across the counter in TJ. Most jobs are Union and most companies pay health care. All foreign companies are required to pay health care for even part time employees. The reason I know is my gardener's wife works for Sony in TJ 2 days per week to give her and the 2 daughters Health insurance.
Are you saying the dental clinics in Mexico are subsidized by their government?
IMSS Hospitals and clinics run by the IMSS (Instituto Mexicano de Seguro Social) are available to all Mexicans and foreigners* who hold jobs. A portion of the salary is withheld to cover affiliation and the employer contributes a larger amount each month to complete the premium. In addition, self employed people and retirees may also join the system after taking care of the paperwork and paying the annual fee. Some pre-existing conditions may not be covered.
IMSS services cover doctors, diagnostic studies such as x-rays and lab work, hospitals and medical procedures, as well as prescription drugs. As with all socialized medical systems, the wait for care is usually longer than that in the private system. Many expats consider IMSS affiliation as a kind of major medical insurance should the need arise.
As far as striking over lackluster products, I don't think that there is a contract in the world that would allow that. Biggest problem, define "not competitive" . That to me is a slippery slope. You could have a strike over nothing. Not to mention, it is "their company" and they can run it as they see, within the rules of the contract.
This is the problem I see in the unionized environment.
"Their contract". "Their job". "Their company". "They [I assume the management] can run it as they see...".
I'm used to a non-union environment where everybody works as a team to make the company, and therefore the employees, successful. I don't understand the wisdom of "the machine broke, but you can't touch that, it's not your job", or "We can't strike about that crappy product, it's not our role, or in our contract. It's the management's job. We don't take any responsibility for that".
Well they SHOULD take responsibility for that. The management is not off the hook, either. Why is our auto company not as efficient as our competitors? Are we even trying? Did the union refuse to make changes, or is the management asleep? Did the management allow abusive contracts which hogtied the company? That's a management failure.
If the competitors can operate in a team fashion and be more efficient, produce better products,have happier employees with MORE job security, then the management AND the union had better damn well make it their collective job to do anything they need to change the situation. Because if they don't (and they haven't for the most part), the competitors will EAT THEIR LUNCH. And then the management who allowed the abusive contracts and the union workers who were greedy go whining to the taxpayer, many/most of who are less well compensated, to bail them out!
We've been told in this forum about all that the unions have done for the American worker (true, in the past), and how we should support the union products. Well the average American who is not a union worker sees better products coming from elsewhere and wonders where all this value is by paying higher wages and benes to companies who can't even produce products that are as good as their lesser compensated competitors. Where is the value added? Should our country be based upon more pay for inferior efficiency, quality, craftmanship? There were some real great Lada's in the Eastern Block, is that where we want our country to go by allowing any but the best products to succeed?
I'm sorry but I don't see the UAW value any longer, and there are millions of Americans who agree with me. Ultimately even the bailout doesn't matter, what matters is the D3 producing desirable products that enough Americans want to buy. And that is not happening right now, and with an economy that is not likely to recover for at least a year, I don't see it happening anytime soon. And Goldfinger is going to continue to hold out for the short-term financial gains of the unions. He should care about how he's destroying the US auto industry. The pathetic strike of GM plants this year where the most successful products were being produced just shows how low the UAW has descended. I feel sorry for many hardworking individuals, but as a group the UAW needs to die. The faster it happens the better for the long term health of the US auto industry.
1. In 2008, A UAW assembly line worker retires, with 30 years service, . His base wage is $28 hourly. He is 60 years old. How much pension does he receive?
2. As a retiree, how much of his medical insurance premiums is he responsible for paying?
3. Under the current medical plan, does he have any deductible or co-pay obligations when using the health insurance?
A retiree of GM receives their pension until they are forced to sign up for Social Security at age 62 (since they retired early with 30 years) and then GM's obligation is reduced by almost all of whatever SS pays that particular retiree. As a GM retiree, you must also sign up for Medicare as soon as you qualify.
Even though the company agreed to pay for all the premiums for the employees and retirees insurance (agreed to in past contracts), the workers and retirees now pay a certain amount per month for their insurance and there are higher copays and deductibles, and GM does not pay one dime towards any office call or injection given in the office.
The prescription drug coverage copay has increased about three times in four years? At least that is the way it is in my area, we have no HMO available here and once you retire, you must take the Traditional coverage which is as above I believe no matter where you live?
Is the pension based on a percentage of your base pay at retirement. Or some other formula? Doesn't your supplemental insurance cover office visits? I pay Kaiser $30 per month supplemental coverage and pay like $15 for an office visit. I have never used it so I am not sure of the exact co-pay. Probably the biggest failure of the UAW was not taking control of the pension fund as many Unions do. Of course that can also lead to corruption. I know ours is locally controlled in Alaska. With people I know on the board of directors. I feel much safer with ours than I would having a company like GM holding the purse strings. How many UAW members sit on the board of the Pension Fund? How do you know that it is not invested in some Ponzi scheme like the one run by Madoff? All good questions to ask if your livelihood depends on that retirement.
1) If you receive $50 per year of service per month you would get $1500 a month (minus any dependent option/survivor benefit selected) and a supplement of $750 a month until social security kicks in. So one would lose the $750 at or about 62 years of age. On average or a typical case ($2250 a month until 62 years of age) Survivor benefits elections normally allow 4 options and reduces this on an actuarial bases (age of retiree and age of spouse). In some cases a retiree with under age children, retiring at 62 plus age creep, would be entitled to benefits for that/those children. Then too, a senior citizen begins to draw social security (there is a Little known special rule that allows all SS benefits to be repaid and the retiree to get 120 or is it 125% of their benefit) and continues to work at normal retirement age. Add to that the fact that at 59 and a half he/she may also start to tap into the 401K penalty free and that at 70 pension begins to come in too. So at 70 its possible to get four scoops of ice cream on your cone.
2) At 30 years of service both the retiree and dependent would be fully vested and receive 100% of their medical and those with less than 30 years would be responsible for a portion of their and or their spouses premiums. This would continue until social security kicks in at 65 years of age. (this varies also and could get very complicated)
3) Deductibles would continue the same as the rank and file. Again until the age of 65 when social security kicks in. Then the plan may include the Medigap premium, which is minimal/reasonable. (this varies also and could get very complicated)
I do a rule of thumb and or a method of maximizing benefits for special friends. The 401K and savings can be used in the manner intended and or to avoid paying too much in taxes. But the rule of thumb, is that you begin to lose social security and or your social security is taxed if a typical family withdraws over $24,000 a year. If you go early and opt for the IRS spreadsheet to avoid the 10% penalty. You would draw about $1150 a month for each $200,000 in your 401K/IRA.
All of this is great to look at and requires planning. Everyones situation is different so remember this is a rule of thumb and by no means get advise from an idiot. This is real money, earned by real people, and not monopoly money.
Not sure that the government does more than oversee the medical profession. Looks like the employers pay the bill. If you are not covered you pay on release from the hospital. That is not the kind of universal socialized medicine that was pushed during the Clinton administration and promised during the Obama campaign.
The bottom line is those not covered by medical or dental insurance can get Good medical and dental care plus prescriptions in Mexico for a fraction of the cost in the USA.
My dental vacation a few years ago combined a trip to San Miguel de Allende with getting a crown for a tooth that was darkening due to a root canal. When I smiled, it looked as if there was a small piece of coal wedged in my mouth.
I planned to be in San Miguel for six weeks, so I didn't feel pressured to rush into a dental chair. It's easy to put off going to the dentist and even easier to procrastinate while vacationing in Mexico, so I waited until about two weeks before departure to make an appointment. Based on recommendations I received from English-speaking foreigners living in San Miguel, I chose a female dentist, formerly a member of the board of the state's dental association. She assured me she could get the job done in ten days. The cost was $120 USD, a good price, considering that my dentist at home wanted ten times that amount.
With my Union Dental plan my crowns averaged more than $600 out of my pocket for each one. It would have paid for a nice extended vacation in Mexico. To maintain our Union middle class lifestyle we may need to think outside the box.
What needs to be remembered is most Americans do not enjoy the upper middle class lifestyle of the long time UAW or other Union workers. It was a good run and now it is just about over. Coming out of high school as I did and going to work in an industry that afforded me a good retirement is in the past. Not likely to be repeated.
I spent a month at weaving school in San Miguel sometime last century. There were 5,000 expats living there then. Probably double now, and housing costs have exploded there since it has been "discovered." That wealth base would attract good medical people.
It's interesting to read comments touting Mexican medical care along with posts opposing nationalized health care, and then read about nationalized health care in Mexico. :shades:
I'll leave my comments about Mexican dental care for Arizonans who go down there seeking a better price. My first appointment is a week from tomorrow. My dental work will take at least one more visit there so I'll have good opportunity to gather up information on how the experience went. I have plenty of American co-workers from the hospital here in Willcox that are already doing this, so it's not like I'm some sort of guinea pig in this.
Until June of 2009 a birth certificate and a piece of picture I.D. will suffice to cross the border. I am planning on parking my '08 Lancer GTS in a paid parking lot in Douglas, AZ, the U.S. side, indeed. The walk looks to be about 3/4 of a mile to the dentist there in Agua Prieta, Sonora, Mexico.
then read about nationalized health care in Mexico.
Here is my question. Does Mexico spend as much per person subsidizing health care as we do in the USA? I would be surprised if Mexico spends a fraction on health care that we do. I believe some here think that Socialized medicine will be equal to the gold plated plans many currently have with UAW or company paid plans. You will not be able to just walk in and get a Dr to look at you under a Nationalized plan. It will be weeks to months depending on what kind of specialist you may need. Even with Kaiser it is 6 months wait for my wife to see her Endocrinologist. She ended up twice in ER prior to finding out what her problem was. Specialist around here are in short supply. And San Diego may have the highest concentration of doctors in the country. They like the weather and great golf.
If you don't have any health care coverage, and several of my friends don't (and I'm not in the spring chicken crowd), then any nationalized plan will seem gold plated.
Without addressing how much (if anything) the UAW has contributed to where the Big Three are today, they have a big PR problem. There are many components to it (e.g., GM spending millions for Viagra for retirees, pay for not working, etc.) but one is simply the visual impact you see on TV and in print media. Let me illustrate.
Seemingly every time the press or TV wants to show the UAW they have a shot of a half a dozen overweight guys, mostly white, leaving a plant. Invariably there is a row of 10' tall turnstyles behind them (is this to keep people in or out?) through which they have just passed , each carrying a large plastic cooler. The guys are dressed in baggy jeans and plaid shirts and look like hell with their bellies hanging over their belts. The other image that I see commonly is a bunch of guys in a bar near a plant, again, middle aged white guys with big guts in baggy jeans, tossing back shots and complaining.
When you see images of the southern import plants, the work force for historical reasons is younger, multiracial, trimmer, and with lots of women. I don't see any army stockade turnstyles either.
Now, let me play the UAWs hand. You never see images of large, happy, extended families that these guys have built. Never see shots of young MDs and CPAs that came out of these families. Just overweight white guys complaining.
They have to bring in their own cold beer. Another complaint by UAW workers. Their counterparts in Germany supposedly get beer with lunch provided. I wonder how much the UAW workers would scream if Uncle Sam took half their pay in taxes like in Germany. Of course the BIG Cooler serves a dual purpose. They can haul out parts and over a few years build their own Car :shades:
You have nailed it. The UAW has a REAL bad reputation. Here in CA I have not talked to one person that felt sorry for the UAW or the Big 3 going belly up. Most feel it is good riddance.
Cartels normally don't work in economics. Because they cheat on each other. OPEC has a hard time controlling its member nations. The De Beers cartel might be the only exception that I'm aware of. If you want to see good representation by a union look at the AMA. Fact is they are directly responsible for the rising medical cost. The UAW is caught in the crossfire of the impotent folks who represent the nation in Washington. Why are they letting the AMA do this?
Not sure that the government does more than oversee the medical profession.
AMA control remains much the same, and as a result, even incompetent doctors are guaranteed high incomes. In law, a profession with much freer entry, some lawyers get rich, others make middle incomes, and others have to go into another line of work. But thanks to almost a century and a half of AMA statism, even terrible doctors get lavish incomes.
The monopoly also allows anti-customer practices to go unpunished. For example, doctors routinely schedule appointments too closely together so as to keep their waiting rooms full, for prestige and marketing reasons. With little competition, they can get away with it, and advertising on-time service would be "unethical." The next time you have to wait 45 minutes amid six-month-old People magazines, thank the AMA.
Many solutions are offered for rising medical costs. Almost all of them involve more government intervention and less consumer choice. No one seems to talk about the root cause of rising costs—the extraordinary power of the American Medical Association (AMA) to control the supply of doctors.
An economic principle is that when there is a shortage, prices go up. Ordinarily—in a free-market—when there is more demand than supply, new entry by suppliers occurs. However, the supply of physicians is strictly controlled.
And so it is with medical care. No political party wants to tackle the unbridled power of the AMA—they are just too powerful a lobby. Until this power of the AMA is tackled, there will be no solution to rising medical costs. And as a consequence, the movement towards further socialization of medicine, which will hurt the consumer even more, will accelerate.
Here in CA I have not talked to one person that felt sorry for the UAW or the Big 3 going belly up.
Here in TX, I have not talked to one person that felt sorry for the California going belly up or falling into the ocean. So how many Hummers does your governor have?
Now, let me play the UAWs hand. You never see images of large, happy, extended families that these guys have built. Never see shots of young MDs and CPAs that came out of these families. Just overweight white guys complaining.
For all their economic clout and cultural sway, the ten great multinationals profiled in our latest chart--AOL Time Warner, Disney, General Electric, News Corporation, Viacom, Vivendi, Sony, Bertelsmann, AT&T and Liberty Media--rule the cosmos only at the moment. The media cartel that keeps us fully entertained and permanently half-informed is always growing here and shriveling there, with certain of its members bulking up while others slowly fall apart or get digested whole. But while the players tend to come and go--always with a few exceptions--the overall Leviathan itself keeps getting bigger, louder, brighter, forever taking up more time and space, in every street, in countless homes, in every other head
I think he has about 6 of them. All UAW built. The Liberals that run the state all drive Prius. Remember it was our own Democrat Moonbeam that tried suing the Big 3 for spewing more Carbon than the Imports. If it was not for Rush Limbaugh pushing GM vehicles and Conservatives buying big SUVs and PU trucks. The Big 3 and UAW would have been gone long ago.
Except for the GM Job Bank, I don't have a problem with the UAW. In fact, I think the majority of the assembly work done by the UAW is excellent. The man or woman on the (assembly) line only installs what management provides. The failure of the U.S.auto industry is management's relentless pursuit of reducing cost-to-build by using cheaper and cheaper components and assemblies. What the 'white shirts' and pin stripe suits do not understand is that when cheap components break....that supposedly cherished, loyal customer starts looking for a better brand of vehicle. So moronic management saves .03 cents on a part.....and risks losing a customer who is willing to pay $20,000+ for vehicle. And that's stupid. Just plain stupid.
majority of the assembly work done by the UAW is excellent.
That may or may not be so. The real point is why did the management cut corners on the content of their vehicles? Was it because they only have so much room with all the additional costs? There is more to the total mess at GM than we are seeing. Did the UAW contracts keep GM from modernizing their operations? Why are the health care costs of retirees added to current production rather than taken from the pension fund? Does the UAW contracts keep people working that are no longer productive? If GM is going to compete against the likes of Toyota on a $20k car, they better use the same quality parts. If GM cannot build a $20k car with equal quality to the imports. Best they get out of the business.
They all use the same suppliers. That is probably the #1 reason why the quality numbers are the same. Never thought of that before. Why would a head lamp assembly on a Toyota be any better than one from a GM if they are both built by Hella or Valeo? They use the same technology and bulb.
But you hit the nail on the head. Many decisions were made to cut content/cost due to trying to offer a product at a competitive price. They had to take content out to compete. This was due to the financials.
I agree if what you are saying is that the Big Three have a leadership vaccuum. None of the these companies have leaders at the top, just well dressed, smooth talking guys. (Gee, Nardelli at Chrysler got 200 million from Home Depot just to go away.) None of these guys would ever think about going back into a plant a midnight to see what really was happenning. None of these guys would ever even consider going into a bar near a plant and buying a couple of rounds on a Friday night to talk with the hourly people. None of these guys could lead a rifle platoon on a skirmish line.
I guess then my point is if GM cuts a few corners so they will have enough to pay a UAW retirees health care premiums, should a customer be chastised for buying the car with higher content? The American people are generally not interested in subsidizing any failing business. A few here just cannot accept the fact that the UAW has beat the Big 3 down to nothing. The UAW idea of fairness is a lug nut assembler should make as much as an engineer with a college degree. That may be the way it is at GM. It is not the way the World operates. It has deteriorated the engineering at GM to where they are not developing competitive product for that high school student to assemble.
Ask a 30 year engineer at GM what he thinks of the 30 year UAW worker.
I agree if what you are saying is that the Big Three have a leadership vaccuum.
From the looks of GM profits over the last 40 years, I would say they have NEVER had decent leadership. Or at least the last four decades. The number ONE reason for GM to exist is to make money. The times they have made money it was not much, and the leadership squandered large portions of it. They did give a decent dividend and that probably kept the large stock holders happy. The biggest mistake Wagoner has made is letting the UAW roll over him and the company. He is a horrible negotiator. Or he hires worthless negotiators. In 1998 when the UAW went on strike Wagoner should have shuttered the doors and moved to Mexico where people appreciate a good paying job. I can guarantee GM would not be begging Congress to bail them out right now.
I have notice the cheaper parts on both domestic and Asian cars and trucks. If they were going to make Tundra work here in Texas, the pick up capital of the United States, they had to beef up the parts and expand the wheel base. They did so. Back in the late 70's and early 80's brake calipers were at least twin piston, some even just like race cars. Now days you get a single piston. Then too small screws are holding things together. Then again the metal sprocket/gear for timing chains is a thing of the past. I know that lots of it has to do with weight/mpg, but still this well could be problematic.
I can't say that I've seen the Germans going to this. I feel that as you go to a higher end autos the parts are superior. Then we also have issues with the cars themselves being too complicated to work on and or too costly to repair. Keeping a car beyond warranty is risky these days.
I was looking at the Honda timing belt replacement the other day. If the technician left the crank or cam positioning wiring untucked. The new timing belt would rub off the wiring insulation in due time. However, the codes would indicate catalytic converter failure.
Just how many converters got replaced because of this routine timing belt replacement issue? Thats an engineering issue, a technician training issue, and not good for business.
Yeah, and I'm sure that many Midwesterners and a good deal of East Coasters would say the same thing about California if the Big One hit and the whole state fell into the Pacific and vanished forever.
But even a current Toyota isn't as nice as an older one. A coworker had a 1992 Camry and it was a lot nicer than a new one which shows signs of decontenting itself.
Edward Cole was probably the last good corporate leader and Chuck Jordan was their last truly good stylist. Guys like Bill Mitchell were legendary. You will never see a man like him again in today's bleak automotive landscape. Heck, put ME in charge and you will see awesome Cadillacs and Buicks coming off that line. If I can't do it, by God I will find the guys who will just like Henry Ford II did after WWII.
The man or woman on the (assembly) line only installs what management provides. The failure of the U.S.auto industry is management's relentless pursuit of reducing cost-to-build by using cheaper and cheaper components and assemblies.
Largely true. However, if I'm management making decisions about parts quality, and my competitors are eating my lunch because my costs are much higher due to union contracts and benefits, I have to cut somewhere to be competitive in cost. I can't cut the union costs because that is in a contract. So I cut parts quality and squeeze my suppliers. Yes, the management should not have agreed to the contract terms, but the entire company was hemorrhaging money during the strike. It was a short term vs. long term decision and I as the upper management chose the short term answer - end the strike by agreeing to the terms. So now I cut costs elsewhere and guess what? The public can see the difference and I continuously lose market share to my competitors.
So I blame BOTH the management and the union. They're in this together but have been so busy being adversarial that their competitors are passing them by.
Well, the unsleeved aluminum engine was to employ a special casting method that, in theory, was supposed to work without cast iron sleeves. Didn't work in reality and unfortunate buyers like my Grandmom were the guinea pigs.
The UAW doesmn't get off the hook here. The Lordstown assembly plant where the Vega was built was notorious for labor unrest and became a showplace on how NOT to build cars. I'd say engineering, management, and labor all share equally in the fiasco that was the Vega. What a shame. It was kind of a nicely styled car for a subcompact - sort of a mini Camaro. It was certainly prettier than a Pinto, Gremlin, or the many anonymous rusty tin boxes Japan Inc. was producing at the time
They all use the same suppliers. That is probably the #1 reason why the quality numbers are the same. Never thought of that before. Why would a head lamp assembly on a Toyota be any better than one from a GM if they are both built by Hella or Valeo? They use the same technology and bulb.
You are correct and there are probably lots of commodity parts that are the same in a Toyota as a GM. But there are also many specially made parts for certain vehicles, and the car company defines the design and specification. So we can't assume that quality will always be the same, even from the same suppliers. I read a post on Edmund's recently where a supplier had been complaining about how picky the J3 are with their parts.
Any part may look exactly the same, but have different life expectancy depending on tolerances, materials and/or QC. They will of course have different cost as well. It's not hard to set up. In fact, we can see same thing as consumers in certain home appliances (lawn mowers, floor cleaners, pressure washers, etc.) when commercial grade equipment is set to last 10 times longer than consumer grade with cost approximately tripple cost.
I don't actually know it it is happening, but it would not surprise me if it did.
62' What are you talking about??? We looked at the GM report and both Wagoner, LaNeve, both said Saturn, is vital to the future of GM, unless that was only lip service and you know a inside secret I'm not aware of??? I can only go off of what I read and quotes to our owner thus if you know something "Top Secret" then I'm being lied too!!!
No crap pal!! GM, will not survive if the average working slob has no disposable income. Hell the country won't survive. It takes people buying things via the transfer of money for a good or service to make things tick!!! I guess you and I, are among the few that believes the working man is critical part of this process.
I as I've told you many of times thank-you for "getting it" lemko!!!
I will be getting a demo sometime next month and the Lucerne Super is indeed on my short list lemko, due to the fact that driving a new Saturn, isn't a good option due to the fact that I drive to many miles. I would prefer to drive pre-owned because i probably will have more flexibility on changing cars. We have a Morroco brown leather Aura that has been catching my eye!!! :shades: My ultimate car is a 05' or 06' STS AWD but we will see. My boss likes me a lot thus he probably will be a little flexible with me and because I prefer to drive pre-owned vs. new I might get what I want. I have a married couple over night in a Aura XR-4 and it looks good. I've lost a few saturn deals but did keep em' in the suburban collection family and most of those are pending.
Well I better hit the rack!!! I would read more but it's time to hit the hay!!!
Perhaps the UAW is also responsible for the sub prime and the Edsel too? It amazes me that when economic times get bad, we seek a scapegoat. The facts are there. They (engineering/management) opted to build an aluminum unsleeved motor. Them compounded the error by trying to inject silicone carbide into the motor. Bet that did wonders for the rings, mains, bearings, and other moving parts within the engine. Aluminum oxide and silicone carbide are abrasives commonly used to make grinding wheels to sharpen/hone metal tools.
When exactly does someone take personal responsibility?
Perhaps the UAW is also responsible for the sub prime and the Edsel too?
That would be Dodd, Frank & Jimmy Carter. Not really sure about the Edsel. Who really cares? Ford survived that joke. GM has had plenty including the Aztek most recently. I don't think anyone is blaming the UAW for poor designs or even cheap content. Those are management decisions. It would even be fair to blame the UAW contracts on Management. Which I do. However the UAW should accept the fact that when they go on strike they are sticking a knife into the goose laying the golden egg. GM in particular has proven they do not have bright CEOs. The UAW has all but killed Union auto workers in this country.
The UAW was slated to take control of their health care administration, some time next year I believe, but of course that may now be a moot point. I doubt GM would allow the UAW to control the pension fund?
To the other poster about UAW families, they obviously do not know many UAW families, only the ones they see on tv, which again, obviously is not in a family scene?
A lot of UAW workers are supporting or helping to support other family members who struggle to get by due to the lack of universal health care sapping whatever meager earnings they have. One I know has two sons, both work for major companies, one in software, and one in pharmacuticals. I know one guy who sent his wife to school with UAW won wages and she is a Nurse practioner, another's son is a chemical engineer with a major firm in Texas, one's daughter is a music teacher, and on and on. Thousands of Drs, Lawyers, etc. have come from UAW families.
UAW members donate thousands of dollars each and every Christmas and then donate the time to deliver food to each and every name they are given.
Being under 62, I have no supplemental insurance policy, and to the point of another poster, I am almost 100% positive that if you retire early from GM, they require you to sign up for Social Security at 62 and Medicare as soon as you qualify also. UAW retirees are dying at record rates, new hires don't get the same insurance or pension package the older senior employees get, so GM's obligations are slowly falling on their own.
And yes, there is a surviving dependent charge if a retiree wants their spouse/dependents to have coverage if they die (this effectively means that coverage is free to GM since the retirees pays for it out of their own pension?).
The common thread I see with people I know who are struggling, aside from no good jobs being available and the ones they had being outsourced out of the country, is what being sick for even a small surgery (say appendicitis, a common surgery) does to their lives. It can often bankrupt them.
Universal health care, hopefully with the option to keep the present insurance you have earned as a retiree from a company that promised you in good times they would provide it the rest of your life, is a great step.
The only other solution is to provide plenty of great paying jobs in the U.S. with great health benefits. It would seem, most of the U.S. citizens don't see the need to save the Big 3, who are providing most of these good jobs now.
The common thread I see with people I know who are struggling, aside from no good jobs being available and the ones they had being outsourced out of the country, is what being sick for even a small surgery (say appendicitis, a common surgery) does to their lives. It can often bankrupt them.
Sounds like ordinary American's. Excellent post!
When we all get away from pointing fingers/scapegoating, we can see that were all in this together. If anything the "prevailing wage" in any given area is driven up by union wages in general. So we all benefit even Honda/Toyota calculate this wage. We don't need to envy others either. Be they the wealthy, or those whom are more fortunate. We need to attract the work, show that we can do the work better than others, and just show them the unbroken American spirit. Bad things can happen to even good people. Do we just give up?
When we all get away from pointing fingers/scapegoating, we can see that were all in this together.
So then why is the UAW killing it's master companies rather than trying to help make the company successful together?
Go long and look for the ball.
Wouldn't the union not have striked GM even THIS YEAR if they had been going long and looking for the ball? The company was nearly insolvent yet the union had to strike at one of the most successful plants? :confuse: :confuse:
The union should "go long" and realize "we're all in this together". Unfortunately Goldfinger has not been doing that. Perhaps he needs to be replaced?
Walter Reuther - isn't he the one that got the Black Lake club and retreat going?
"among the union's biggest fixed assets, have lost $23 million in the past five years alone, a heavy albatross around the union's neck as it tries to manage a multibillion-dollar pension plan crisis." Fox
I'm not sure why the AMA and the practice of medicine has been interjected into to a UAW discussion(?)
Bringing in one or two crackpot person's opinions of the AMA as being some sort of government controlling powerhouse and the implication of all doctor's being flawless super human's (although some think they are) that don't make mistakes, yet make an unbelievably high income serves no purpose here. It does a great job at distorting the reality of becoming a physician and maintaining credentialing using cherry picked opinions and pseudo-facts.
Are doc's making too much? If so, when you need emergency surgery or a loved one gets cancer, call Oprah Winfrey or A-Rod.
The mgmt has been slowly implementing a 30 year plan to reduce the damage the union is doing. The union in the past would strike only the most profitable GM plant, Janesville, Wis. Mgmt has now eliminated that plant The union would strike a key car part plant without which, a car could not be completed. Mgmt has outsourced all parts The union had half a million members Now they have about 50,000 Mgmt wants some concessions from the union to restore some of the competitiveness There has to be another place for GM to find competitiveness. I can't figure out what it could be Bankruptcy will only help if it relieves GM of it's pension and healthcare obgligations. The 1% savings from UAW wage concessions will not be enough to save GM. There are some factors that will turn in favor for GM but not until we climb out of the recession and start buying cars. Local dealer is advertising new 2009 Corolla's, Impalas or Malibus for 14,900. You have to be in a current GM lease and add destination charge so it would be $17,550 for me for the 2 Chevys. Not sure if the Corolla has $2k of the discount as a lease turn in too. But even these deals aren't getting people out to buy.
UAW retirees are dying at an unprecedented rate? Can you give a link or give some personal information that you know about this purported fact?
Is it one of those things like the oldtimers at Boeing would always tell me? I'll tell you about it, it goes like this.
"See him over there?"
"Yep."
"He's gonna die once he retires from the Lazy B!"
"Oh yeah, why is that?", I would ask.
"Because he needs to keep working. Once he stops working, it will be as if all of his self-worth and importance to others and himself will be gone. He'll just die."
Scary thing is, as I worked more and more years at Boeing...and watched more and more of the people I knew retire, this played out to be true.
Not always, though. Now I know that some of the UAW presently working are die-hards who love their job, and love to do a good job. Some of them will pass away when they retire.
Trouble is, the present-day working crowd at GM of UAW's have stabbed the monster that is trying to feed them.
What's nuttier is that GM management just went along with their bloated demands! That's the Gary Payton jumper that swished right through to beat the Bulls, people. They just went along with it, to their eventual early demise.
Comments
If you think about it, you'll soon understand the logic behind Toyota's position. A post-bankruptcy GM, with its legacy costs under control & under the leadership of a new & more aggressive management team, will be a much more fearsome competitor. Do you think that Toyota wants that? Of course not. Toyota likes GM just the way it is now: bloated & slow to respond.
Toyota finds the current competitive landscape very much to its liking & doesn't want radical, meaningful change, which can only come from bankruptcy reorganization.
Your absolutely right. Besides who else can Toyota use to do the innovations for their next generation of cars?
IMSS
Hospitals and clinics run by the IMSS (Instituto Mexicano de Seguro Social) are available to all Mexicans and foreigners* who hold jobs. A portion of the salary is withheld to cover affiliation and the employer contributes a larger amount each month to complete the premium. In addition, self employed people and retirees may also join the system after taking care of the paperwork and paying the annual fee. Some pre-existing conditions may not be covered.
IMSS services cover doctors, diagnostic studies such as x-rays and lab work, hospitals and medical procedures, as well as prescription drugs. As with all socialized medical systems, the wait for care is usually longer than that in the private system. Many expats consider IMSS affiliation as a kind of major medical insurance should the need arise.
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/healthindex.html
This is the problem I see in the unionized environment.
"Their contract". "Their job". "Their company". "They [I assume the management] can run it as they see...".
I'm used to a non-union environment where everybody works as a team to make the company, and therefore the employees, successful. I don't understand the wisdom of "the machine broke, but you can't touch that, it's not your job", or "We can't strike about that crappy product, it's not our role, or in our contract. It's the management's job. We don't take any responsibility for that".
Well they SHOULD take responsibility for that. The management is not off the hook, either. Why is our auto company not as efficient as our competitors? Are we even trying? Did the union refuse to make changes, or is the management asleep? Did the management allow abusive contracts which hogtied the company? That's a management failure.
If the competitors can operate in a team fashion and be more efficient, produce better products,have happier employees with MORE job security, then the management AND the union had better damn well make it their collective job to do anything they need to change the situation. Because if they don't (and they haven't for the most part), the competitors will EAT THEIR LUNCH. And then the management who allowed the abusive contracts and the union workers who were greedy go whining to the taxpayer, many/most of who are less well compensated, to bail them out!
We've been told in this forum about all that the unions have done for the American worker (true, in the past), and how we should support the union products. Well the average American who is not a union worker sees better products coming from elsewhere and wonders where all this value is by paying higher wages and benes to companies who can't even produce products that are as good as their lesser compensated competitors. Where is the value added? Should our country be based upon more pay for inferior efficiency, quality, craftmanship? There were some real great Lada's in the Eastern Block, is that where we want our country to go by allowing any but the best products to succeed?
I'm sorry but I don't see the UAW value any longer, and there are millions of Americans who agree with me. Ultimately even the bailout doesn't matter, what matters is the D3 producing desirable products that enough Americans want to buy. And that is not happening right now, and with an economy that is not likely to recover for at least a year, I don't see it happening anytime soon. And Goldfinger is going to continue to hold out for the short-term financial gains of the unions. He should care about how he's destroying the US auto industry. The pathetic strike of GM plants this year where the most successful products were being produced just shows how low the UAW has descended. I feel sorry for many hardworking individuals, but as a group the UAW needs to die. The faster it happens the better for the long term health of the US auto industry.
2. As a retiree, how much of his medical insurance premiums is he responsible
for paying?
3. Under the current medical plan, does he have any deductible or co-pay
obligations when using the health insurance?
Thanks,
Kip
Even though the company agreed to pay for all the premiums for the employees and retirees insurance (agreed to in past contracts), the workers and retirees now pay a certain amount per month for their insurance and there are higher copays and deductibles, and GM does not pay one dime towards any office call or injection given in the office.
The prescription drug coverage copay has increased about three times in four years? At least that is the way it is in my area, we have no HMO available here and once you retire, you must take the Traditional coverage which is as above I believe no matter where you live?
Hypothetically and reasonably
1) If you receive $50 per year of service per month you would get $1500 a month (minus any dependent option/survivor benefit selected) and a supplement of $750 a month until social security kicks in. So one would lose the $750 at or about 62 years of age. On average or a typical case ($2250 a month until 62 years of age)
Survivor benefits elections normally allow 4 options and reduces this on an actuarial bases (age of retiree and age of spouse). In some cases a retiree with under age children, retiring at 62 plus age creep, would be entitled to benefits for that/those children. Then too, a senior citizen begins to draw social security (there is a Little known special rule that allows all SS benefits to be repaid and the retiree to get 120 or is it 125% of their benefit) and continues to work at normal retirement age. Add to that the fact that at 59 and a half he/she may also start to tap into the 401K penalty free and that at 70 pension begins to come in too. So at 70 its possible to get four scoops of ice cream on your cone.
2) At 30 years of service both the retiree and dependent would be fully vested and receive 100% of their medical and those with less than 30 years would be responsible for a portion of their and or their spouses premiums. This would continue until social security kicks in at 65 years of age. (this varies also and could get very complicated)
3) Deductibles would continue the same as the rank and file. Again until the age of 65 when social security kicks in. Then the plan may include the Medigap premium, which is minimal/reasonable. (this varies also and could get very complicated)
I do a rule of thumb and or a method of maximizing benefits for special friends. The 401K and savings can be used in the manner intended and or to avoid paying too much in taxes. But the rule of thumb, is that you begin to lose social security and or your social security is taxed if a typical family withdraws over $24,000 a year. If you go early and opt for the IRS spreadsheet to avoid the 10% penalty. You would draw about $1150 a month for each $200,000 in your 401K/IRA.
All of this is great to look at and requires planning. Everyones situation is different so remember this is a rule of thumb and by no means get advise from an idiot. This is real money, earned by real people, and not monopoly money.
The bottom line is those not covered by medical or dental insurance can get Good medical and dental care plus prescriptions in Mexico for a fraction of the cost in the USA.
My dental vacation a few years ago combined a trip to San Miguel de Allende with getting a crown for a tooth that was darkening due to a root canal. When I smiled, it looked as if there was a small piece of coal wedged in my mouth.
I planned to be in San Miguel for six weeks, so I didn't feel pressured to rush into a dental chair. It's easy to put off going to the dentist and even easier to procrastinate while vacationing in Mexico, so I waited until about two weeks before departure to make an appointment. Based on recommendations I received from English-speaking foreigners living in San Miguel, I chose a female dentist, formerly a member of the board of the state's dental association. She assured me she could get the job done in ten days. The cost was $120 USD, a good price, considering that my dentist at home wanted ten times that amount.
With my Union Dental plan my crowns averaged more than $600 out of my pocket for each one. It would have paid for a nice extended vacation in Mexico. To maintain our Union middle class lifestyle we may need to think outside the box.
What needs to be remembered is most Americans do not enjoy the upper middle class lifestyle of the long time UAW or other Union workers. It was a good run and now it is just about over. Coming out of high school as I did and going to work in an industry that afforded me a good retirement is in the past. Not likely to be repeated.
It's interesting to read comments touting Mexican medical care along with posts opposing nationalized health care, and then read about nationalized health care in Mexico. :shades:
Hourly pay panel discussion in Indy:
UAW official: Big 3 pay not higher (Indystar)
Until June of 2009 a birth certificate and a piece of picture I.D. will suffice to cross the border. I am planning on parking my '08 Lancer GTS in a paid parking lot in Douglas, AZ, the U.S. side, indeed. The walk looks to be about 3/4 of a mile to the dentist there in Agua Prieta, Sonora, Mexico.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Here is my question. Does Mexico spend as much per person subsidizing health care as we do in the USA? I would be surprised if Mexico spends a fraction on health care that we do. I believe some here think that Socialized medicine will be equal to the gold plated plans many currently have with UAW or company paid plans. You will not be able to just walk in and get a Dr to look at you under a Nationalized plan. It will be weeks to months depending on what kind of specialist you may need. Even with Kaiser it is 6 months wait for my wife to see her Endocrinologist. She ended up twice in ER prior to finding out what her problem was. Specialist around here are in short supply. And San Diego may have the highest concentration of doctors in the country. They like the weather and great golf.
But we digress....
Seemingly every time the press or TV wants to show the UAW they have a shot of a half a dozen overweight guys, mostly white, leaving a plant. Invariably there is a row of 10' tall turnstyles behind them (is this to keep people in or out?) through which they have just passed , each carrying a large plastic cooler. The guys are dressed in baggy jeans and plaid shirts and look like hell with their bellies hanging over their belts. The other image that I see commonly is a bunch of guys in a bar near a plant, again, middle aged white guys with big guts in baggy jeans, tossing back shots and complaining.
When you see images of the southern import plants, the work force for historical reasons is younger, multiracial, trimmer, and with lots of women. I don't see any army stockade turnstyles either.
Now, let me play the UAWs hand. You never see images of large, happy, extended families that these guys have built. Never see shots of young MDs and CPAs that came out of these families. Just overweight white guys complaining.
Your mileage may vary.
They have to bring in their own cold beer. Another complaint by UAW workers. Their counterparts in Germany supposedly get beer with lunch provided. I wonder how much the UAW workers would scream if Uncle Sam took half their pay in taxes like in Germany. Of course the BIG Cooler serves a dual purpose. They can haul out parts and over a few years build their own Car :shades:
You have nailed it. The UAW has a REAL bad reputation. Here in CA I have not talked to one person that felt sorry for the UAW or the Big 3 going belly up. Most feel it is good riddance.
Not sure that the government does more than oversee the medical profession.
AMA control remains much the same, and as a result, even incompetent doctors are guaranteed high incomes. In law, a profession with much freer entry, some lawyers get rich, others make middle incomes, and others have to go into another line of work. But thanks to almost a century and a half of AMA statism, even terrible doctors get lavish incomes.
The monopoly also allows anti-customer practices to go unpunished. For example, doctors routinely schedule appointments too closely together so as to keep their waiting rooms full, for prestige and marketing reasons. With little competition, they can get away with it, and advertising on-time service would be "unethical." The next time you have to wait 45 minutes amid six-month-old People magazines, thank the AMA.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/medical.html
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3762857
Many solutions are offered for rising medical costs. Almost all of them involve more government intervention and less consumer choice. No one seems to talk about the root cause of rising costs—the extraordinary power of the American Medical Association (AMA) to control the supply of doctors.
An economic principle is that when there is a shortage, prices go up. Ordinarily—in a free-market—when there is more demand than supply, new entry by suppliers occurs. However, the supply of physicians is strictly controlled.
And so it is with medical care. No political party wants to tackle the unbridled power of the AMA—they are just too powerful a lobby. Until this power of the AMA is tackled, there will be no solution to rising medical costs. And as a consequence, the movement towards further socialization of medicine, which will hurt the consumer even more, will accelerate.
http://givingupcontrol.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/the-untold-story-behind-rising-m- edical-costs/
Here in TX, I have not talked to one person that felt sorry for the California going belly up or falling into the ocean. So how many Hummers does your governor have?
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Media_control_propaganda/Media_Control.html
http://www.netscientia.com/media.html
For all their economic clout and cultural sway, the ten great multinationals profiled in our latest chart--AOL Time Warner, Disney, General Electric, News Corporation, Viacom, Vivendi, Sony, Bertelsmann, AT&T and Liberty Media--rule the cosmos only at the moment. The media cartel that keeps us fully entertained and permanently half-informed is always growing here and shriveling there, with certain of its members bulking up while others slowly fall apart or get digested whole. But while the players tend to come and go--always with a few exceptions--the overall Leviathan itself keeps getting bigger, louder, brighter, forever taking up more time and space, in every street, in countless homes, in every other head
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020107/miller
I think he has about 6 of them. All UAW built. The Liberals that run the state all drive Prius. Remember it was our own Democrat Moonbeam that tried suing the Big 3 for spewing more Carbon than the Imports. If it was not for Rush Limbaugh pushing GM vehicles and Conservatives buying big SUVs and PU trucks. The Big 3 and UAW would have been gone long ago.
the majority of the assembly work done by the UAW is excellent. The man or woman on the (assembly) line only installs what management provides. The failure of the U.S.auto industry is management's relentless pursuit of reducing cost-to-build by using cheaper and cheaper components and assemblies. What the 'white shirts' and pin stripe suits do not understand is that when cheap components break....that supposedly cherished, loyal customer starts looking for a better brand of vehicle. So moronic management saves .03 cents on a part.....and risks losing a customer who is willing to pay $20,000+ for vehicle. And that's stupid. Just plain stupid.
WheelMan
That may or may not be so. The real point is why did the management cut corners on the content of their vehicles? Was it because they only have so much room with all the additional costs? There is more to the total mess at GM than we are seeing. Did the UAW contracts keep GM from modernizing their operations? Why are the health care costs of retirees added to current production rather than taken from the pension fund? Does the UAW contracts keep people working that are no longer productive? If GM is going to compete against the likes of Toyota on a $20k car, they better use the same quality parts. If GM cannot build a $20k car with equal quality to the imports. Best they get out of the business.
But you hit the nail on the head. Many decisions were made to cut content/cost due to trying to offer a product at a competitive price. They had to take content out to compete. This was due to the financials.
Ask a 30 year engineer at GM what he thinks of the 30 year UAW worker.
From the looks of GM profits over the last 40 years, I would say they have NEVER had decent leadership. Or at least the last four decades. The number ONE reason for GM to exist is to make money. The times they have made money it was not much, and the leadership squandered large portions of it. They did give a decent dividend and that probably kept the large stock holders happy. The biggest mistake Wagoner has made is letting the UAW roll over him and the company. He is a horrible negotiator. Or he hires worthless negotiators. In 1998 when the UAW went on strike Wagoner should have shuttered the doors and moved to Mexico where people appreciate a good paying job. I can guarantee GM would not be begging Congress to bail them out right now.
I can't say that I've seen the Germans going to this. I feel that as you go to a higher end autos the parts are superior. Then we also have issues with the cars themselves being too complicated to work on and or too costly to repair. Keeping a car beyond warranty is risky these days.
I was looking at the Honda timing belt replacement the other day. If the technician left the crank or cam positioning wiring untucked. The new timing belt would rub off the wiring insulation in due time. However, the codes would indicate catalytic converter failure.
Just how many converters got replaced because of this routine timing belt replacement issue? Thats an engineering issue, a technician training issue, and not good for business.
Whose idea was it to make an unsleeved aluminum motor and put it in a Vega? Yeah that would go back about 30 years.
Largely true. However, if I'm management making decisions about parts quality, and my competitors are eating my lunch because my costs are much higher due to union contracts and benefits, I have to cut somewhere to be competitive in cost. I can't cut the union costs because that is in a contract. So I cut parts quality and squeeze my suppliers. Yes, the management should not have agreed to the contract terms, but the entire company was hemorrhaging money during the strike. It was a short term vs. long term decision and I as the upper management chose the short term answer - end the strike by agreeing to the terms. So now I cut costs elsewhere and guess what? The public can see the difference and I continuously lose market share to my competitors.
So I blame BOTH the management and the union. They're in this together but have been so busy being adversarial that their competitors are passing them by.
The UAW doesmn't get off the hook here. The Lordstown assembly plant where the Vega was built was notorious for labor unrest and became a showplace on how NOT to build cars. I'd say engineering, management, and labor all share equally in the fiasco that was the Vega. What a shame. It was kind of a nicely styled car for a subcompact - sort of a mini Camaro. It was certainly prettier than a Pinto, Gremlin, or the many anonymous rusty tin boxes Japan Inc. was producing at the time
You are correct and there are probably lots of commodity parts that are the same in a Toyota as a GM. But there are also many specially made parts for certain vehicles, and the car company defines the design and specification. So we can't assume that quality will always be the same, even from the same suppliers. I read a post on Edmund's recently where a supplier had been complaining about how picky the J3 are with their parts.
I don't actually know it it is happening, but it would not surprise me if it did.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-Rocky
I as I've told you many of times thank-you for "getting it" lemko!!!
-Rocky
Well I better hit the rack!!! I would read more but it's time to hit the hay!!!
Hope all of you had a good Christmas!!!
"The Rock"
Perhaps the UAW is also responsible for the sub prime and the Edsel too? It amazes me that when economic times get bad, we seek a scapegoat. The facts are there. They (engineering/management) opted to build an aluminum unsleeved motor. Them compounded the error by trying to inject silicone carbide into the motor. Bet that did wonders for the rings, mains, bearings, and other moving parts within the engine. Aluminum oxide and silicone carbide are abrasives commonly used to make grinding wheels to sharpen/hone metal tools.
When exactly does someone take personal responsibility?
http://www.failuremag.com/arch_history_edsel.html
That would be Dodd, Frank & Jimmy Carter. Not really sure about the Edsel. Who really cares? Ford survived that joke. GM has had plenty including the Aztek most recently. I don't think anyone is blaming the UAW for poor designs or even cheap content. Those are management decisions. It would even be fair to blame the UAW contracts on Management. Which I do. However the UAW should accept the fact that when they go on strike they are sticking a knife into the goose laying the golden egg. GM in particular has proven they do not have bright CEOs. The UAW has all but killed Union auto workers in this country.
To the other poster about UAW families, they obviously do not know many UAW families, only the ones they see on tv, which again, obviously is not in a family scene?
A lot of UAW workers are supporting or helping to support other family members who struggle to get by due to the lack of universal health care sapping whatever meager earnings they have. One I know has two sons, both work for major companies, one in software, and one in pharmacuticals. I know one guy who sent his wife to school with UAW won wages and she is a Nurse practioner, another's son is a chemical engineer with a major firm in Texas, one's daughter is a music teacher, and on and on. Thousands of Drs, Lawyers, etc. have come from UAW families.
UAW members donate thousands of dollars each and every Christmas and then donate the time to deliver food to each and every name they are given.
Being under 62, I have no supplemental insurance policy, and to the point of another poster, I am almost 100% positive that if you retire early from GM, they require you to sign up for Social Security at 62 and Medicare as soon as you qualify also. UAW retirees are dying at record rates, new hires don't get the same insurance or pension package the older senior employees get, so GM's obligations are slowly falling on their own.
And yes, there is a surviving dependent charge if a retiree wants their spouse/dependents to have coverage if they die (this effectively means that coverage is free to GM since the retirees pays for it out of their own pension?).
The common thread I see with people I know who are struggling, aside from no good jobs being available and the ones they had being outsourced out of the country, is what being sick for even a small surgery (say appendicitis, a common surgery) does to their lives. It can often bankrupt them.
Universal health care, hopefully with the option to keep the present insurance you have earned as a retiree from a company that promised you in good times they would provide it the rest of your life, is a great step.
The only other solution is to provide plenty of great paying jobs in the U.S. with great health benefits. It would seem, most of the U.S. citizens don't see the need to save the Big 3, who are providing most of these good jobs now.
Sounds like ordinary American's. Excellent post!
When we all get away from pointing fingers/scapegoating, we can see that were all in this together. If anything the "prevailing wage" in any given area is driven up by union wages in general. So we all benefit even Honda/Toyota calculate this wage. We don't need to envy others either. Be they the wealthy, or those whom are more fortunate. We need to attract the work, show that we can do the work better than others, and just show them the unbroken American spirit. Bad things can happen to even good people. Do we just give up?
Go long and look for the ball.
Really? What facts support this perception?
So then why is the UAW killing it's master companies rather than trying to help make the company successful together?
Go long and look for the ball.
Wouldn't the union not have striked GM even THIS YEAR if they had been going long and looking for the ball? The company was nearly insolvent yet the union had to strike at one of the most successful plants? :confuse: :confuse:
The union should "go long" and realize "we're all in this together". Unfortunately Goldfinger has not been doing that. Perhaps he needs to be replaced?
"among the union's biggest fixed assets, have lost $23 million in the past five years alone, a heavy albatross around the union's neck as it tries to manage a multibillion-dollar pension plan crisis." Fox
Bringing in one or two crackpot person's opinions of the AMA as being some sort of government controlling powerhouse and the implication of all doctor's being flawless super human's (although some think they are) that don't make mistakes, yet make an unbelievably high income serves no purpose here. It does a great job at distorting the reality of becoming a physician and maintaining credentialing using cherry picked opinions and pseudo-facts.
Are doc's making too much? If so, when you need emergency surgery or a loved one gets cancer, call Oprah Winfrey or A-Rod.
The union in the past would strike only the most profitable GM plant, Janesville, Wis.
Mgmt has now eliminated that plant
The union would strike a key car part plant without which, a car could not be completed.
Mgmt has outsourced all parts
The union had half a million members
Now they have about 50,000
Mgmt wants some concessions from the union to restore some of the competitiveness
There has to be another place for GM to find competitiveness. I can't figure out what it could be
Bankruptcy will only help if it relieves GM of it's pension and healthcare obgligations. The 1% savings from UAW wage concessions will not be enough to save GM.
There are some factors that will turn in favor for GM but not until we climb out of the recession and start buying cars.
Local dealer is advertising new 2009 Corolla's, Impalas or Malibus for 14,900. You have to be in a current GM lease and add destination charge so it would be $17,550 for me for the 2 Chevys. Not sure if the Corolla has $2k of the discount as a lease turn in too. But even these deals aren't getting people out to buy.
Is it one of those things like the oldtimers at Boeing would always tell me? I'll tell you about it, it goes like this.
"See him over there?"
"Yep."
"He's gonna die once he retires from the Lazy B!"
"Oh yeah, why is that?", I would ask.
"Because he needs to keep working. Once he stops working, it will be as if all of his self-worth and importance to others and himself will be gone. He'll just die."
Scary thing is, as I worked more and more years at Boeing...and watched more and more of the people I knew retire, this played out to be true.
Not always, though. Now I know that some of the UAW presently working are die-hards who love their job, and love to do a good job. Some of them will pass away when they retire.
Trouble is, the present-day working crowd at GM of UAW's have stabbed the monster that is trying to feed them.
What's nuttier is that GM management just went along with their bloated demands! That's the Gary Payton jumper that swished right through to beat the Bulls, people. They just went along with it, to their eventual early demise.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick