rockylee: Those were the words coming from Rick Wagoner and Mark LaNeve.
Rick Wagoner and Mark LaNeve are not completely in charge of which brands live and die, as the events of the last year should make readily apparent. The customers decide this sort of thing.
Spent 7yrs of my automotive career running a 100 employee UAW plt 16 miles south of Flint, Mi..supplying parts to the Big3..The Big3 lost the ability to run their business back when times were good for they gave away their wallet. The UAW got fat during the hayday times, so they are in for a haircut..
Got involved in the auto business in 1968 as a supplier, sales/marketing, and the last 15 yrs as a commisioned rep--one person organization.. Had a ball, it was a great industry, lots of fun and money. Left it all in 2002..
Back to the UAW, really more of a nuisance than any help, adversary was their game, however the small plants were not their cup of tea, it was natural by close proximity to their base operations to unionize everybody around, so to maintain peace and quiet, one becomes unionized, then proceed with making the company work. Otherwise, you spend too much time and effort trying to keep them out.. You run the business, not the UAW..If it works in their favor, close the door.
We had a plant in Wisconsin back in the late 70's that was UAW, took a 90 day. strike, and after the 90 days we ended up with a open shop. you did not have to join the union..It was finally given back 9 yrs later, great bargaining tool..This plant was also 100% autorelated product line..Our main plant in Illinois was not unionized..
The Asian transplants in America have remained free of the UAW, whereas they use temp labor along with the main work force, bad times hit, out go the temps and according to the Toyota ethics, the full-time employees are not laid-off--lifetime employment. During lean times those employees can go through training or community service or they can take unpaid time-off.. Looks like the Asians have their own version of the UAW jobs bank program..
Let's look at the political side of the UAW, real-left hand, and their good old Michigan politicans, LEVIN, DINGELL,STRABENOW, and CONYERS have really screwed the UAW by helping impose the goofy auto emission and mileage std..They couldn't resist lining up with the environmental whackos which has screwed the Big3 to it's current status...
The Volt car is doomed before it hits the streets, imagine a 4cyl engine that does not propel the car but acts as a generator to charge the lithium batteries only..That's really exciting???!!!!!
I may go out and buy another UAW car, 09 CTS to add to my 09 Bullitt, and 06 Pontiac GPGT just to make sure I don't have to buy the future junk line imposed by our red-band controlled Congress..
Let's face it---it's all political and the outcome will not be pretty.......
I just said what the actual question was and how the results should be read. No spinning at all.
If you really think that the survey result say only 22% of the people would buy a GM or Chrysler and 78% will not buy then that alone shows it is suspect. December sales will show GM alone getting over 22% market share.
Is the UAW going to help you out because they may have been drunk that Monday when they assembled your engine? So it lasted 3 years then started using oil. For Starters GM needs to offer 10 year warranty to make people believe they consider their cars good.
Rocky, sorry but Saturn will be gone. There will be no new product for them. BUT they will not be closed in the next 3 months. NO reason to kill them and pay the dealers but look for slow closing and merging over the next year. This economy will do it for GM. Anyone left in a year will be bought out.
Those kinds of deals are probably going to be difficult for GM to provide for the next year or two.
As the world turns. This is like a soap opera. Maybe you could put in for that CEO position as soon as it becomes vacant. If you haven't heard Toyota yesterday and Honda prior have come to grips with this global recession. We all want to look to someone or group to vent on. Who is responsible for the down turn? Who cares? How long is more important. The UAW is not responsible for the world wide demand of transportation. Our economy living on credit has even fueled that of China and other developing nations. They too will look for scapegoats. Americans not buying this Xmas in the malls will create a ripple effect that will be felt across the ocean.
Transition/change will morph the automakers, UAW, and the entire business community of the world. We remember some of those who lived through the Great Depression and their frugality. Will the consumer morph into that type of consumer? Will Americans look to govt for relief? Does contraction in an economy bring about more unionism or less unionism as many see the pitfalls of capitalism?
We can only hope that the contraction will be a short one and lead into a lengthy expansion. Will we still be the greatest consumer nation on the planet? Plenty of folks are already suffering. UAW or no UAW we all share common interests. We all want our offspring to enjoy the best this country has to offer. Educate them to make a difference and procreate. As this next generation come into the workforce, I don't want them to work as hard as the prior. Remember, we have technology and back breaking work is passé.
The blame like grbeck, more/less said can't fall completely on the shoulders of the UAW. They don't get paid to run the companies or control the engineering of the products do they
First time I agree with you, Rokie. The blame is definitely not all union. I would even say it's not "mostly" union. But the union had tremendous power, especially in those soc..., I mean Midwestern and Northern States. They have no creative powers, but boy do they have destructive powers or what... They can go on strike, shut down lines, block any changes - basically paralyze the company. It is their "job" to defend their turf, especially if their salaries and bonuses are paid based on what they were able to "tear" from their companies.
However, it was conversely job of the management to break union's back, if necessary, shoot or otherwise netralize their leaders and bring the normal order (by normal order I understand consumer -investor-"man of labor" order with large gaps between). Just like Caterpillar or other successful Midwestern manufacturers did. Since they were unable/unwilling to do that, it is their (management's) blame in the most. If you know what is necessary and you can't do it, you resign and make space for somebody, who can. Since Wagoner knew exactly and did not follow, it's his falut at most.
My "blame assignment" is as follows: - management: 60% for being oblivious to market, short-sighted on finances and mostly cowardly on labor; - unions: 30% for being dumb (better shut down factories than agree to copay on Viagra), short-sighted and ultimately unwilling to acknowledge the change (if 200 milion Americans are more than happy to pay health insurance premiums and doctor copays, there is nothing special about fork lif operator in Dearborn plant); - politicians: 10% for supporting and perpetuating the disfunctional "stalemate" status quo just because it suited their fundraising (Republicans supported management and Democrats the unions - both sides to blame).
Twelve to fifteen dollars an hour? Heck, I'd like to see somebody survive independently on that without either having several roommates, a wealthy spouse, or slingin' rocks on the corner!
General Motor's oldest plant nears shutdown Published: 12/23/08, 3:25 PM EDT By DINESH RAMDE
JANESVILLE, Wis. (AP) - As the last SUV rolled off the production line at General Motors' oldest plant here Tuesday, Karen Green promised herself she would keep her emotions in check.
The Janesville plant was built in 1918 for tractor production and converted to a Chevrolet plant in 1923. Green had worked on the assembly line for 14 years.
When plant and union officials began thanking workers for their years of service, however, she couldn't hold back the tears.
"I was pretty good up until the end. Then I lost it," said Green, 55, of Fort Atkinson. "It was just so somber, so sad."
Green was one of 1,200 employees let go when GM ended production at the southern Wisconsin plant.
Another 800 or so jobs have been lost at local companies that supplied GM parts.
Over the years, workers churned out sedans and SUVs, including Chevrolet Suburbans and GMC Yukons. But demand for big vehicles plummeted during the days of $4 gas this summer and failed to recover as fuel prices came down.
"We gave it a pretty good run for 85 years," said Steve Kriefall, 58, of Janesville. "But these are tough times now, and it's hard to see it come to this."
Kriefall retired from a 25-year career at the plant two years ago, but came back Tuesday for the final day.
The recession and a reluctant to extend credit have further hurt GM and other U.S. automakers. GM's sales have dropped 18 percent, and the company has lost $57.5 billion in the past 18 months.
In response, GM has announced 11,000 U.S. layoffs this year. They include 1,080 workers at a GM plant in Moraine, Ohio, that also closed Tuesday.
About 50 workers will remain at the Janesville plant to complete an order of small- to medium-duty trucks for Isuzu Motors Ltd. They're scheduled to finish by May or June, and then the plant will close for good, GM spokesman Christopher Lee said.
The recent job losses follow years of dwindling employment at the plant, which had 8,000 workers in the early 1990s. Some wonder whether the Janesville area can survive.
"You're already seeing it - lots of people leaving, lots of homes for sale," said Harry Larson, 57, who was an electrician at GM for 25 years. "They'll be looking for work wherever they can find it."
Others are persistently optimistic. Marv Wopat, 61, believes the town can persevere and hopes the automaker will eventually bring a new product to Janesville and its 60,000 residents.
"I believe Janesville will survive because of the community and the quality of people," said Wopat, who retired in July after 40 years with GM. "I believe it will survive, and it will grow, and hopefully it'll grow with GM down the road."
So far, that doesn't seem likely. Even though the White House threw GM and Chrysler LLC a lifeline Friday, offering $17.4 billion in rescue loans, the money isn't likely to trickle down to Janesville.
Before the money was approved, Gov. Jim Doyle had said the Janesville plant would have "no chance" without a bailout, and even with one it would have "a very, very remote chance."
Doyle's spokesman Lee Sensenbrenner said the governor's assessment was unchanged.
"It's still a very remote chance," Sensenbrenner said. "Maybe this keeps the door open a crack, but it's still going to be a difficult journey."
Workers trickled out of the plant in twos and threes after Tuesday's final shift.
Some said they were considering going back to school, but most said weren't sure what the future would hold.
Jeff Schrobel, 50, of Fort Atkinson, said he was considering taking classes toward an engineering degree but wondered whether more schooling would help.
"I'll be 55 when I'm done," Schrobel said. "Will having a degree make any difference at that point?"
Green said she's also considering going back to school, although she doesn't know what she'd study. Meanwhile, she's been cutting back on her Christmas and other spending.
"I'll just have to learn how to get by with less," she said.
Whoa, now that's interesting! A young guy who works with me is worried about how he's going to pay for the $5,000 repair bill for the transmission in his 2002 Acura RSX!
Well, the 10-year thing worked for Hyundai, why not GM? Heck, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and 1988 Buick Park Avenue could've had 20-year warranties and not needed them. If it's anything GM does right, it's powertrains!
Whoa, now that's interesting! A young guy who works with me is worried about how he's going to pay for the $5,000 repair bill for the transmission in his 2002 Acura RSX!
Wait...isn't an RSX basically an Acura Civic? If it doesn't have a manual transmission it would only have a 4-speed automatic at best, wouldn't it? What the hell is in that transmission that would make it cost $5K to replace?!
There's a guy at work who has a 2003 or so Chevy Impala, just a base model with the 3.4. His transmission recently bit the dust, and was around $2500 or so to replace. At first I was thinking that was a bit premature, but then he said it had about 130,000 miles on it. So okay, it ain't no Torqueflite 727 or THM400. But if I got 130K out of a modern tranny before it chewed itself up, I wouldn't be too irritated with it.
Oh, as an aside, I've seen a commercial on tv a few times for some aftermarket warranty company that says they'll put a warranty on your car as long as it's under 15 years old and less than 200,000 miles. They show examples of how they saved their customers money, and one of the examples they quote is something like "The cost to replace the transmission in this 2003 Intrepid would have been about $3,000, but with our warranty, it didn't cost our customer a cent! I think it's funny that of all the examples out there they could have picked from, they had to pick an Intrepid like mine! :surprise:
The other example they used was a $1200 a/c compressor on an early '00's Caravan. Boy, this sure is pick on Mopar Day, isn't it? :P
There's a guy at work who has a 2003 or so Chevy Impala, just a base model with the 3.4. His transmission recently bit the dust, and was around $2500 or so to replace. At first I was thinking that was a bit premature, but then he said it had about 130,000 miles on it.
Only 130k? That's pathetic. Any transmission that's worth a damn should run for at least 200k with no problems. Dying at 130k is some serious (expletive).
A friend of mine has an 03 Accord V6 that lost its tranny at 70K, then at about 95K it started acting up again, so it required shop time - but there was no failure. He's up to about 110K on it now and he's been fine since, but I know it worries him.
Lucky for him be bought some kind of warranty extension when he bought the car (new) so he's had no out of pocket costs.
Heck, my Mom & stepdad's '91 Stanza's tranny started to crap out around 90,000 miles! They were able to nurse it to around 110,000 though, when they sold the car.
Their replacement car, a '99 Altima, crapped its tranny at 35,000. To its credit though, that car has about 275,000 miles on it now, so tranny #2 has proven itself.
all good jobs have to come to an end. Boeing decided my job and about 40,000 other jobs were expendable in 2002-2003. The UAW has basically doomed and bit the GM that fed them.
Again, it's healthcare that I went in to. I have told my story on here numerous times but I still see a dire need for Medical Assistants, CNA's, LPN's, RN's, Certified Respiratory Therapists and Registered Respiratory Therapists. Get re-trained outside of the auto industry. The American auto industry is in need of a Respiratory Therapist to intubate it and put it on a mechanical ventilator. We'll be watching it's end-tidal CO2, O2 saturations and CO2. Also it's HCO3. GM and the UAW definitely need an Arterial Blood Gas, supplemental oxygen and a mechanical ventilator. See how fun medical work is?
And even though you may not get to save your former company, it is often that you will get to have a hand in saving a little baby in respiratory distress, or help one in being born.
Get re-trained and get started getting the initial paperwork going. You'll want to get a head start on it-I am not so sure that GM is looking out for you at all. After all, it is you, the UAW, that has screwed them over, isn't it?
Make the breath rate 16 and get us another ABG, RT. :shades:
All sound advice. Did you get the job in Seattle? I think that is a good place to steer clear of for a while. Maybe work winters in Wilcox and summers in the Puget Sound. It is easier to do when you don't have a Union telling you where you can work. Jobs based on skills needed everywhere are preferable to being on one lug nut at a time installer.
We gave them the bailout money and the UAW lost several 1000 jobs today alone. So what a waste of money. Time for GM to file for bankruptcy. They could just become an auto importer from Korea, India and China. Get rid of all the legacy costs and Union contracts. Maybe make a profit after decades of muddling. All GM has done for the last 40 years is lose money and market share. While the imports have out managed them and seduced their customer base with better cars.
Ugh! The only way the imports could seduce me is to get me extremely drunk and drop an entire bottle of roofies in my drinks! To buy a Toyota, I'd have to drink the entire distillery! :sick:
concepts that is apparently overlooked, regardless of UAW or Management, is the fact that the Big 3 have more capacity to build cars far in excess of their ability to sell them...if they can make 7 million cars but only sell 5 million, the numbers are literally more simple than the UAW will admit...close enough plants and dump enough workers to shrink capacity down to the 5 million you can sell...that means that the suppliers, who are set up to sell you the parts for 7 million vehicles must also shrink to 5 million, so they must close or reduce capacity...
So find me the plants that are old, or make the cars no one wants to buy, and your formula is clear...
You wouldn't buy a 7 bedroom house if you had no kids, you wouldn't set up a hospital the size of the Mayo Clinic in a town of 3,500 people, and they simply have more capacity from the days when they needed it...they don't need it any longer...and they have yet to shut down sufficient plants to reduce their capacity with demand...
And let's be completely realistic and remember that when the Taurus was the best-selling car, the Accord and Camry were smaller than the domestic offerings.
I'll agree (Taurus) it was hideous and a dog. I had one as a rental once. But it was the same size and the Camry. However, numbers are fact. Then some brilliant designer decided to round/oval the windows and made it look even worse. Like the offspring of an AMC Pacer. German consultants got Toyota to build cars American would fit in at or around 1979. Celica had dramatic change, including the Tagra band, enormous pistons, and a huge crank. Solid valve lifters made the R20 and the R22 indestructible motors/engines. Since I took many of these apart, they were nearly identical to the Porsche motors. That was Toyota's finest offering and better yet was the Supra's soon to come, when Celica went front wheel drive. The 82 Supra was far superior to the 82 VETT.
VETT has no Japanese match now and Camry/Accord are much better than Taurus. However, there is a Chevy which may soon be the car of the masses. So I hear. There is a wake up call to GM/Ford/UAW and I expect positive results. I don't believe that Toyota/Honda are going to be sitting on their hands either and the more choice out there, the better for the consumer. Union and non union workers, blue collar and white collar, supplier and OEM all know that their families are depending on them to provide.
Police chief's were disappointed that GM did away with the rear wheel drive Caprice/Impala. The 96 Impala SS is a very sought after car. In 02 the Camaro Z28 and SS were discontinued after almost being perfected. In 01 the Catera was discontinued (still sold in Europe as an Opel Omega) and redesigned as the CTS. These were mistakes or miscalculations from my stand point.
The UAW gets blamed for many things beyond their control. Building an aluminum/non sleeved block for the Vega was retarded and a futile attempt to lose weight/gain MPG. That engineer should have been drug tested.
No one figured that going to unleaded gas was going to warp valves. Leaded gas protected valves. So that can be excused as an honest human miscalculation.
if they can make 7 million cars but only sell 5 million,
This is nothing new in business. Expansion and contraction/surplus and shortage and to reduce inventory they invented the pricing mechanism. At some point the supply and demand curve meet. Thats the market price, where supply meets demand.
Here in Arlington Texas they can produce about 250,000 Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade per year at full capacity. The shorter SUV's and its a state of the art cell system/honey comb factory. Unfortunately, I don't think they can sell them and make a profit. Too bad the night shift and maybe even more people will have to suffer. Some are even UAW. When they rein in their expenses, others will suffer, not just the suppliers. They may have to forgo eating out, cable TV, cell phone service, Internet service, and make other alteration which ripple through out the economy and effect other hard working people. Those coming out of college and ready to set the world on fire, may find experienced newly layed off people competing with them for fewer openings/jobs. When do we figure that were all in this UAW and non UAW?
My Cadillac dealer has informed me that they would no longer honoring non GM after market warranties. I ask why? They said they weren't paying, going out of business, or at best slow to pay and or difficult in dealing with. Buyer beware.
Boeing decided my job and about 40,000 other jobs were expendable in 2002-2003.
Everyone is under the impression that the Joint Strike Fighter is the largest military contract out there. In reality, the armed forces handed Boeing a gold mine. They figure they can save more money and do more with Boeing than say the C17 and others.
The UAW need a defibrillator to come back to life. However, when folks lose their health insurance we need to look at the whole picture. My spouse also works for a large consortium of drug makers in the distribution system, directly to patients. I sit in on their philanthropic board and one of these days we are going to find just cause for denying a needy/indigent person.
So what percentage of folks who work in hospitals get these staff infection? I know thats misspelled.
rockylee wrote: "I can tell you being on the inside that Saturn, isn't going anywhere and Pontiac, will be a niche brand. Those were the words coming from Rick Wagoner and Mark LaNeve. Saab and Hummer, will be sold or closed. " It's all negotiable my dear. Hummer sold to the mid east and Saab remains to be seen . You aren't trusting management now are you? Oh how quickly they roll , Uaw, this is it, no really , not kidding. They aren't joking. Concede or see what bankruptcy court gives you . There once was an airline named Eastern airlines, their baggage handlers made upper 20's/hr in the '70's. They refused to negotiate and alas are no more. But what do I know?
We gave them the bailout money and the UAW lost several 1000 jobs today alone.
Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I. The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as. They may lack education, but nonetheless they are my union brothers/sisters.
I'm tired of talking about who is at fault the GM fiasco. What should GM and the UAW do now?
Good question. What would a smart man do? I think this is not just the UAW and GM in crisis. The nation/world is in for a prolong recession/depression. We might be better off thinking of how to shorten the agony. Prices are going down to reduce inventory/over production. Retailers are having customers wanting $1000 items for $200 to $300 as I read today. So my solution is in the short term to get that money thats taking up space to work for a stimulus. Sooner or later that $1000 item is just taking up space and will eventually sell at a loss or have to wait for the economy to recover. Its of no use having an empty home or tires dry rotting on a car. Besides vandals/neglect might make it more of an eyesore and less attractive to consumers. If we as a nation or better yet as a planet, reduced prices and wages in half, we could get those savers to come out and get it over with. This would fuel the economy with idle savings set aside for mindless reasons. If the planet refuses to go along we would have to do it as a buy American deal. This would be the least of any worries, since price would absolutely the main consideration. There would have to be a time lag in which all purchases would be put off prior to the greatest sale on earth. Mainly for big ticket items (homes, autos, boats, and others) 3 months would be reasonable. If wages and prices are cut in half, so are mortgage and car payments (all payments). Only savings accounts/demand deposits would not be cut in half. Nothing sold on credit whatsoever. A cash cows sales event to fuel the economy.
If this works the agony of a protracted downturn would more than likely be shorten. My expectations would be that all that idle money would fuel the economy and have a multiplier effect which would last for years. In those years the GM's and UAW's could plan a little bit better for future rainy days. Then too it may generate enough tax revenue to offset some or maybe all of our govt's debt. Face it all the players, well a good many of them, have been caught with their pants down. None of these irresponsible corporations/unions have been watching out for shareholder/members value.
So now tell me the flaws. If there are none I'm bailing out Obama/Wall Street/America/planet earth.
PS The stock market would not be effected, many are already half price or less.
"One of the vehicles dropped by helicopter landed upside down; the [Army] Rangers rolled it over and drove it away,"
Then listen to stories from military men and women whose lives literally have been saved by the big, heavy, versatile cousin to the Hummer H1, the Humvee. Suddenly, it's not important that actor-turned-governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is the biggest fan of the military Humvee and the owner of multiple Hummers. The Hummer H1s sold in the United States last year don't seem like such a big deal as do the thousands of Humvees sold and delivered to the U.S. military.
What matters is that three MPs walked away from a Humvee after its front end was blown off in Bosnia, and that a U.S. Army Ranger in gritty Mogadishu, Somalia, was saved when an RPG—rocket-propelled grenade—failed to penetrate the door of his Humvee.
Stories like these filter back to the South Bend, Indiana, home of the Humvee and Hummer all the time. "In the past month, we have had two phone calls from soldiers who served in Afghanistan who called to say they wanted to thank the people who made the vehicle that saved their lives," said Craig Mac Nab, director of public relations for AM General.
You suggested a lot of changes for the US as a whole. Lokki wanted to know what to do about GM and the UAW. Would your plan include changes at the D3 or do you think the US just trying to fix the entire economy is going to be enough to save the D3?
DD writes:So my solution is in the short term to get that money thats taking up space to work for a stimulus.
What money? And who would it help? Bush has taken $17.4 billion of the money Congress set aside to protect US from bank failures. Are you referring to the money the banks are supposed to keep in reserve?
DD writes:Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I.
If that bailout money is not going to protect jobs like those lost yesterday. Why bother giving GM money? We know they are building 1000s of vehicles that will just sit to accommodate UAW contracts. It is the work rules that need to be wiped out before GM can run a competitive business. I have not heard the UAW brass addressing these issues. Getting rid of the jobs bank is a good start though insignificant. That is an issue that grinds on all Americans that have lost a job and depend on regular unemployment checks to get by. If all the unemployed were given the same money extended to out of work UAW members it would be about $80 billion per month. They are finding with the $450 per week paid in CA that many people are not bothering to look hard for work. Paying people not to work is a disincentive to try harder.
DD writes:The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as.
There are many first hand reports of UAW workers refusing to do jobs out of their classification. Going on strike for very questionable reasons. Sitting around in rubber rooms reading comics and watching cartoons. Chastising new hires to slow down so they do not make the lazy old timers look bad. I could go on. The UAW is not a good example of what a Union should look like. It looks a lot like some of the Unions in Alaska that I worked with in the early 1970s. Many Unions have gotten by that featherbedding entitlement mentality that still exists in the UAW. Now it is time to pay the piper. The UAW along with the lousy management at GM is on the brink of disaster. The rest of US do not have $38 billion a year to keep them afloat. If the UAW members are your brothers and sisters, send them half your paycheck each month. I have family of my own that I help support.
DD:UAW workers build the Hummer and is proud to support our troops.
I have never said to get rid of the Hummer group. In fact the military is probably one of the few entities in this country that can afford to pay the UAW wages required to build those vehicles. AM General that produces the Humvee and the Hummers for GM is not in any way owned by General Motors. GM contracts with AM General to build the H2 and H3. The H1 is no longer built. I would say those UAW jobs are safe for now. Until the military is gutted by a softer, kinder US government.
do you think the US just trying to fix the entire economy is going to be enough to save the D3?
I'm looking at this as a macro, the GM/UAW/D3 being a part and or subset of the entire global economy. I look for a rebirth/fresh start to get it together. The auto industry will morph into something in the future. GM or the UAW being a part of those changes is anyones guess. Many of these companies don't want any negative news, because in the end Wall Street is but a giant rumor mill. One can see that Ford wants be excluded from the "Bail-Out". However, if this becomes a long and protracted downturn in the economic cycle, which is long over due, Ford/Toyota/Honda and all the players will be begging for cash infusions, reducing costs, and taking measures to survive.
The price at the pump is directly correlated to the contraction in use of gas. If we get the world economy going again the demand will like it was prior and the price will go to where supply meets demand. So its silly to build Hummer's and Tundra's for consumers who can get the same task, transportation/hauling stuff, in something more efficient. In any case these plants at best would serve a small market segment. The decision makers in the auto companies opted to take ill advised risks and put shareholder value on the back burner. Gov't could have seen this coming and started to do a gradual increase on gas tax to deter demand, encourage building more efficient autos, discourage dependence, and foster innovation in the new technologies.
There is plenty of blame to go around, those who saved their acorns for the rainy day should and will be the winners. It only a question of how long and if they make ill advised business in the future, they should liquidate. Greed drove this as it did in the investment banking. China and India too were looking to become players, and may at some future date. So has anyone here driven a Tata?
Collapse is a great book, written by Jarred Diamond. Its all about what a global economy might entail in a round about way. As the author looks at many civilizations and explains why some didn't make it, while others did. He has two excellent books.
dallasdude: I'll agree (Taurus) it was hideous and a dog.
It was head-and-shoulders above the competition from GM and Chrysler (Celebrity/Ciera/6000/Century and the K-cars). Let's face it, a 1986 Taurus in good condition would not look out of place in traffic today, while a Chevrolet Celebrity of the same year looks very outdated.
It was no reliability champ, but neither were the GM and Chrysler competition.
I pretty much agree with your pragmatic view of the economy.
So its silly to build Hummer's and Tundra's for consumers who can get the same task, transportation/hauling stuff, in something more efficient.
While I agree with that statement. I have found it difficult to buy anything that will get the job done using much less gas than a Tundra. My 1999 Ranger Flex Fuel V6 is an absolute gas hog. I only fill about once every 6 weeks and am lucky when I average 15 MPG. Of course that CANNOT be blamed on the UAW. That is fully controlled by the 25% tariff on imported PU Trucks. A gift from LBJ to the UAW and the Big 3 that could not compete against VW and their little 50 MPG VW Rabbit PU truck. So VW built a plant in the USA and that was the beginning of foreign auto makers building factories in the USA. The Big 3 with their overbearing UAW mill stone around their necks, have steadily lost market share since.
What money? And who would it help? Bush has taken $17.4 billion of the money Congress set aside to protect US from bank failures. Are you referring to the money the banks are supposed to keep in reserve?
Colleges and universities are looking at 529 college saving plans, where money is being parked/invested for educational purposes, for one example. They are making these institutions of higher education more Spa's to attract this money/students. These are some of the most intelligent people when it comes to investing. Unfortunately they have been getting sub par performance in the market. The time lag is on their side, if say they invested it in real estate. I'm talking people like you and I who have CD's and would jump at the chance of getting a GREAT DEAL. Not credit or gov't money which is the same as credit. Black Friday is always going to get a waiting line. There is always going to be people, with cash, sitting on the sidelines waiting for a moment like this. I'm just meeting their price sooner, rather than later.
DD writes:Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I.
At half price, I'll take another CTS and I'll also need a small truck to haul stuff. Your right (leave govt out of it) and the consumer, given the opportunity can reduce the inventory and thereby give the company the capital infusion to restructure to current market conditions. Add that their wages, medical cost, suppliers parts, and all other debt is now only half. They get that second chance to get it together.
DD writes:The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as.
People are people and sometimes they may have other things going on in their lives. Death of a loved one, divorce, medical issues, and other human conditions cause many otherwise good workers to have a bad period during their work years. This is not just a UAW or union issue. There could be a many other reasons why worker is not to your standards. A smart man could get/inspire that employee to do wonders. Reminds me of Huck Finn getting his peers to paint that fence.
DD:UAW workers build the Hummer and is proud to support our troops.
LTV bought the Jeep/American Motors part of AMC, (see if that is cited anywhere on the net) while it was a conglomerate. Later it divested it, in its ill fated attempt to get straddle the PGBC with its steel workers pensions. Its American as apple pie. I've been in the real thing and they lack the creature comforts (leg room mostly). They can also out climb anything out there, inflate/deflate their tires (on the move), and many more tricks. The H3 is reasonable in that it has a five cylinder and gets about 20 mpg. I can only agree that its an expensive toy for grown boys. If our troops need it, they should get it.
At half price, I'll take another CTS and I'll also need a small truck to haul stuff.
Just as Rocky was bragging his brother bought an Impala for 30% less than MSRP. How does that help the UAW worker? Only cars sold above invoice are helping the B3. Granted no one in their right mind would buy a B3 car above invoice right now. So it is still a dilemma that GM especially has to resolve. If you do not cut the UAW wage and benefits or the retiree health benefits, what do you cut? GM has already cut content that has produced substandard vehicles. Cutting Wagoner's pay to a buck is totally symbolic. Cut wages and benefits to the line workers by 20% and let the retirees pay their own medical, and GM starts to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Not before BIG cuts in wages & benefits occur. That goes for all suppliers as well. And promises for next year or the year after are worthless. GM may not be here 6 months from now.
The Pennsylvania State Police loved those big RWD Caprices. They chose to refurbish a lot of the Caprices rather than replace them with Crown Vics when the time came to replace them.
I never bought an aftermarket warranty after I got burned by one when I was younger. I remember getting a letter in the mail from a bankruptcy attorney stating the assets of the warranty company filing for Chapter 7 was $45,000 and a Mazda 626! Gee, I wonder what my share would've been? Probably substantially less than what I paid for the warranty!
They chose to refurbish a lot of the Caprices rather than replace them with Crown Vics when the time came to replace them.
From what I've heard, a lot of police departments chose to do that, rather than go with a Crown Vic. I've always thought it was interesting that, of the Big Three downsized big police cars, the one that was generally viewed as the weakest, the Crown Vic, would be the last man standing. Back in 1979-81, the Newport/St. Regis/Gran Fury was widely regarded as the best police car, which was ironic because in civilian form, they were usually ranked well below their Ford and GM rivals.
The Impala/Caprice weren't so hot initially, but were more competitive once the Mopar 360 was no longer offered in police cars and the 318-4bbl was the top offering. By 1989, the Caprice was finally starting to surpass the performance levels of a 1979 St. Regis or Newport. And then when the 1994-96 LT1 models hit the streets, they were really a force to be reckoned with.
Even to this day, I don't think the Crown Vic is that much of a performer, as a police car. I think the V-6 Charger and Impala are about the same, performance-wise, while the Hemi Charger would blow it away. Although the Crown Vic is bigger and sturdier, so it could probably stand up to much more abuse.
The Intrepid was used briefly as a police car as well, and was a good performer in all respects except one. Braking. They actually had a habit of bursting into flames if you were hard enough on them! :surprise: There's a 2004 Intrepid copcar for sale at a local used car lot that I've been keeping my eye on. But maybe I'd better leave it alone!
That stuff on their lots is just taking up space and as a consumer I'm just looking for a deal. GM and the UAW worker can make more cars in hopes that the economy will pick up and demand will surpass supply. Then they have whats called a profit. A liquidation is nothing but a fire sale and folks look to get things for pennies on the dollar. This is nothing new. Our economy has always worked like this. When the prices of homes went up, sellers didn't have any problems raking in profits. The buyers also thought they were better off buying. Thats during an up market aka sellers market. Often bidding war to buy homes are common in sellers markets. Now that its the buyers market, the seller has to make up the difference between what he/she owes and the sale price. Now they have problems in having to add money to get out. The term upside down, GAP insurance, and short sales have been used to describe this issue.
In any economic transaction both parties walk away with something they feel better off with. Much like UAW/GM negotiations. Many who owe more on an asset (auto/home) than they are currently worth, shouldn't expect a buyer to bail them out. Either sit and wait for better times or pay the difference between the assets market value and what the bank has you on the hook for.
Give up retirees medical? Where is this free lunch described in capitalism? There is no free lunch and your just pushing that cost off onto the taxpayers. Why is that different than a bail out? Remember both parties walk away happy in an economic transaction. True that buyers remorse is a fact of life, but as they say buyer beware.
It just seems that you are saying "fix the economy, the auto makers will morph, how is anyone's guess".
It doesn't look like you have any suggestions directly for the UAW/GM to improve their chances. That's pretty hands off for a business on the verge of death. Even Wagoner is making more changes than that.
In any economic transaction both parties walk away with something they feel better off with. Much like UAW/GM negotiations. Many who owe more on an asset (auto/home) than they are currently worth, shouldn't expect a buyer to bail them out. Either sit and wait for better times or pay the difference between the assets market value and what the bank has you on the hook for.
I doubt that GM has ever felt they got a good deal with the UAW contract negotiations. They settled rather than fight. For the last 20+ years they have been caught between Dealer demands, UAW demands and retiree legacy costs. The Health care was an open ended stupid thing to agree to. Setting a pension figure is a gamble that the retiree will only live a given number of years. Health care has no real cost limit.
As far as being into a vehicle for more than expected. I was caught once by GMAC sleazy financing and learned my lesson. They used to apply all payment to the total interest before starting on principle. That is fine if you keep the vehicle for the length of the loan. I sold after 3 years and got a real surprise. That was the only time I used GMAC. I think the Feds passed some kind of law against the practice. Another good reason for buyer beware in Any transaction.
There is no free lunch and your just pushing that cost off onto the taxpayers. Why is that different than a bail out?
Not sure your point. The UAW workers paid into Medicare same as most of the rest of US. It is not my fault they give the services to people that never paid in or paid very little. Besides there is a premium. I pay $96 out of my SS each month plus a $30 supplemental to Kaiser. Thankfully I have not needed any health care services so that money is in the SS bank for when I do need it. Same should work for the UAW retirees. It is about time all the civil service employees including Congress went on the same plan. We are wasting billions each year with gold plated health plans like the UAW has, on retired teachers, firemen, police, sewer workers, meter maids etc etc....
The bailout is corporate welfare that was never paid for in advance like Medicare has been.
I can just hear the cheers from the forum and the eco-whacks.. The UAW is holding steadfast on any concessions knowing that the libs will bail them out..
Why did we allow Japan to build plants in the USA, when our guys were kept out Japan due to heavy taxation????I realize the first answer will be our "Crummy Cars".
Japan is a little island with no where to go, so all one needs is a little put-put, not a big Yankee car..
Our Congress can't wait to see the Big3 fail, they have been corroding it's impact for years..
I remember a bumper sticker that I saw yesterday, "I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money, you keep the change"..Explains my view..
Proud to support the American Manufacturing base controlled by Detroit's Big3, which has helped maintain our freedoms and supplied the needed equipment to defeat our enemies..
Maybe we will have a solar,battery,or hybrid powered tank for the next conflict..you think???? I am sure some pointy-headed kool-aid drinker will be given a basket of money to start such research to satisfy the environmental whackos who are really excited about demise of Detroit..I hear California is out of dough, years of liberal spending!!!! No, Arnie is no conservative!!!!!! Anybody that pushes hydrogen cars is dreaming---he used that to get the lib vote..
When it is all said and done the UAW will get a haircut---very short this time..
In Japan Toyota has about 6000 workers, of which 3000 are temp help and laid off due to their slumping sales..Nobody has come forward saying what the temps are paid in Japan or in their transplant assy plts inthe USA..
Even Russia is complaining about the slowdown whereas the cheap Japanese are stealing sales from the Russian brands, now we know Putin will solve that problem.
Buy American and put the country back to work, Big3 that is!!!!, boot the Asians out and see if the country doesn't respond with glee..
It doesn't look like you have any suggestions directly for the UAW/GM to improve their chances.
Thats why CEO's get the big bucks. MIS (management information systems) gives them more insight into the "business" that they operate. I could only offer technical advise and maybe some marketing help. They all have these radical ideas which run against my personal views at first anyway. Such as a JIT (just in time), Green belt, black belt, sigma six certification, and a host of different issues which have made Toyota the darlings of the business schools/industrial engineering/supply chain. It all goes back to what would a smart man do. Besides, I'm too much an asset in my current position. However, the question is almost like asking one to rate a book which has yet to be read.
I doubt that GM has ever felt they got a good deal with the UAW contract negotiations.
So they owning the means of production means nothing? We can only agree that no one wins in a strike situation????
The UAW workers paid into Medicare same as most of the rest of US.
Medicare kicks in at 65 and if someone goes prior, in this case the insurance is funded by the company. For example if they offer an early out at 55 years old, the company would pay the entire insurance, if fully vested, for that person and maybe their dependent, until the age of 65, when Medicare would kicks in. There and after they would just cover the medigap. You opted for Kaiser and the agreement via Medicare/gov't expands your benefits as the gov't trys to steer people to managed care plans.
So if this person who has retired early has the carpet pulled out from under. He or she might or more than likely seek medical attention at the county hospital. So now local gov't and or the local taxpayers get the tab.
If you take their pension away, the PGBC has to use real money generated from taxes to pay a retiree.
So if this person who has retired early has the carpet pulled out from under. He or she might or more than likely seek medical attention at the county hospital. So now local gov't and or the local taxpayers get the tab.
I retired before 65 and just bit the bullet and paid my own health care for two years. Why is it always someone else that should pay the UAW retirees health care. The Teamster's in Alaska realized decades ago they could not survive paying health benefits for early retirees. Why was GM and the UAW so stupid as to think they could?
They could go to county hospital or if they were veterans go to the VA hospital. This cradle to grave mentality will be the death of this country. Look what is happening in Japan and Germany. I can guarantee for 50% of my income like Germany taxes I could get one heck of a platinum health care plan. Far superior to what Germany offers its citizens. MOre companies are moving out of Japan as a result of high taxes and the strong Yen.
Why was GM and the UAW so stupid as to think they could?
To entice/lure the worker to retire early they made a cost benefit judgment. Pay the current employees medical cost and $28 an hour. Or hire a new employee and pay his medical plus about $14 an hour. Otherwise they would have had little chance in getting that employee to retire. GM saves $14 and hour for the long term. Others would never be replaced and GM saves the entire $28 an hour plus the cost of medical. I'm sure that there more, like overtime of $42 for the retiring employee and $21 for the new employee. Then too they more than likely enjoy working employees overtime as opposed to hiring the additional employee. First they don't pay any more vacation, holiday, medical, retirement, and other costs by not hiring the additional employee to do away with the need for overtime. Add to that the fact that when inventory is high they just need to cut back on overtime as opposed to laying off. The union has the responsibility of representing employees and looking out for their best interests. Seniority is very important and is one of the biggest reasons a collective bargaining employee is protected from age discrimination in many cases. Any simple mind would be able to figure that the $14 an hour employee is a better deal than the high seniority $28 an hour employee. So to a company it would be "just good business sense" lay off out of seniority and or terminate senior top paid employees.
So the issue of working out of job families and or bring seniority into a new job family is commonly addressed to protect seniority and the moving special pet people/nepotism/cronyism which could crop up in the event of pending lay offs. So the UAW has to be on guard and therefore work outside ones job classification is considered a displacement. How would you feel if you were on lay off and some other person outside of your craft and or a outside contractor was doing your job?
More companies are moving out of Japan as a result of high taxes and the strong Yen.
I'm aware that the weak dollar as opposed to the strong yen should increase exports. More exports and or American made good become more attractive (price wise) overseas. Hence, they project that the manufacturing base will increase in America. For that matter the dollar is taking a beating against many currencies. This is a result of increasing the money supply. The FED has decide to decrease the interest rates and forgo the fear of inflation. They did so to reduce the inventory of housing. For each point the interest rate increases, there are that many fewer qualified buyers for this housing glut.
It doesn't look like you have any suggestions directly for the UAW/GM to improve their chances.
Thats why CEO's get the big bucks. MIS (management information systems) gives them more insight into the "business" that they operate. I could only offer technical advise and maybe some marketing help.
I can't stop laughing..... You have plenty of advice for everyone else..... but you're only advice for GM regarding saving the company is - "What time's dinner and make sure the cook doesn't skip on the desserts!"
Well, there's no point in continuing the discussion.... I'm done here.
I know if your reading these posts, I might have answered your question? If a certain plant has little demand for its product. One shift and no overtime. Reducing supply to meet demand at a point where you can make a profit is the only long term solution. Considering changing the output to something more in demand or that appeals to the consumer. Marketing might be another option. Other than that huddle up, go long, and look for the ball.
So what do you make of the long waiting list of consumers waiting to buy a new Camaro?
GM and the UAW worker can make more cars in hopes that the economy will pick up and demand will surpass supply. Then they have whats called a profit.
The economy was up for the past 3-4 years and even profitable SUVs were selling well, and GM was still not making a profit. They need to try a different formula.
The union has the responsibility of representing employees and looking out for their best interests.
The problem is that they are too short-sighted. The strike in the last year at a GM plant where the most successful vehicles are being built as an example. WHILE GM was losing money. To look out for the employees' best interests the company has to survive. Which is not going to happen if you strangle the company. I guess this particular union is not too bright. Now Goldfinger is giving the taxpayer the finger by holding a hard line on union benefits while we all chip in.
Seniority is very important
That's part of the problem. Performance should be important. If a CEO is not performing, fire him (like Wagoner). If a union (or any) employee is not performing, fire him. It shouldn't matter how long they've been at the company.
Comments
Rick Wagoner and Mark LaNeve are not completely in charge of which brands live and die, as the events of the last year should make readily apparent. The customers decide this sort of thing.
Got involved in the auto business in 1968 as a supplier, sales/marketing, and the last 15 yrs as a commisioned rep--one person organization.. Had a ball, it was a great industry, lots of fun and money. Left it all in 2002..
Back to the UAW, really more of a nuisance than any help, adversary was their game, however the small plants were not their cup of tea, it was natural by close proximity to their base operations to unionize everybody around, so to maintain peace and quiet, one becomes unionized, then proceed with making the company work. Otherwise, you spend too much time and effort trying to keep them out.. You run the business, not the UAW..If it works in their favor, close the door.
We had a plant in Wisconsin back in the late 70's that was UAW, took a 90 day. strike, and after the 90 days we ended up with a open shop. you did not have to join the union..It was finally given back 9 yrs later, great bargaining tool..This plant was also 100% autorelated product line..Our main plant in Illinois was not unionized..
The Asian transplants in America have remained free of the UAW, whereas they use temp labor along with the main work force, bad times hit, out go the temps and according to the Toyota ethics, the full-time employees are not laid-off--lifetime employment. During lean times those employees can go through training or community service or they can take unpaid time-off.. Looks like the Asians have their own version of the UAW jobs bank program..
Let's look at the political side of the UAW, real-left hand, and their good old Michigan politicans, LEVIN, DINGELL,STRABENOW, and CONYERS have really screwed the UAW by helping impose the goofy auto emission and mileage std..They couldn't resist lining up with the environmental whackos which has screwed the Big3 to it's current status...
The Volt car is doomed before it hits the streets, imagine a 4cyl engine that does not propel the car but acts as a generator to charge the lithium batteries only..That's really exciting???!!!!!
I may go out and buy another UAW car, 09 CTS to add to my 09 Bullitt, and 06 Pontiac GPGT just to make sure I don't have to buy the future junk line imposed by our red-band controlled Congress..
Let's face it---it's all political and the outcome will not be pretty.......
I just said what the actual question was and how the results should be read. No spinning at all.
If you really think that the survey result say only 22% of the people would buy a GM or Chrysler and 78% will not buy then that alone shows it is suspect. December sales will show GM alone getting over 22% market share.
GM does have a 10 year warranty on their engines.
As the world turns. This is like a soap opera. Maybe you could put in for that CEO position as soon as it becomes vacant. If you haven't heard Toyota yesterday and Honda prior have come to grips with this global recession. We all want to look to someone or group to vent on. Who is responsible for the down turn? Who cares? How long is more important. The UAW is not responsible for the world wide demand of transportation. Our economy living on credit has even fueled that of China and other developing nations. They too will look for scapegoats. Americans not buying this Xmas in the malls will create a ripple effect that will be felt across the ocean.
Transition/change will morph the automakers, UAW, and the entire business community of the world. We remember some of those who lived through the Great Depression and their frugality. Will the consumer morph into that type of consumer? Will Americans look to govt for relief? Does contraction in an economy bring about more unionism or less unionism as many see the pitfalls of capitalism?
We can only hope that the contraction will be a short one and lead into a lengthy expansion. Will we still be the greatest consumer nation on the planet? Plenty of folks are already suffering. UAW or no UAW we all share common interests. We all want our offspring to enjoy the best this country has to offer. Educate them to make a difference and procreate. As this next generation come into the workforce, I don't want them to work as hard as the prior. Remember, we have technology and back breaking work is passé.
First time I agree with you, Rokie. The blame is definitely not all union. I would even say it's not "mostly" union. But the union had tremendous power, especially in those soc..., I mean Midwestern and Northern States. They have no creative powers, but boy do they have destructive powers or what... They can go on strike, shut down lines, block any changes - basically paralyze the company. It is their "job" to defend their turf, especially if their salaries and bonuses are paid based on what they were able to "tear" from their companies.
However, it was conversely job of the management to break union's back, if necessary, shoot or otherwise netralize their leaders
My "blame assignment" is as follows:
- management: 60% for being oblivious to market, short-sighted on finances and mostly cowardly on labor;
- unions: 30% for being dumb (better shut down factories than agree to copay on Viagra), short-sighted and ultimately unwilling to acknowledge the change (if 200 milion Americans are more than happy to pay health insurance premiums and doctor copays, there is nothing special about fork lif operator in Dearborn plant);
- politicians: 10% for supporting and perpetuating the disfunctional "stalemate" status quo just because it suited their fundraising (Republicans supported management and Democrats the unions - both sides to blame).
So how about that
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Published: 12/23/08, 3:25 PM EDT
By DINESH RAMDE
JANESVILLE, Wis. (AP) - As the last SUV rolled off the production line at General Motors' oldest plant here Tuesday, Karen Green promised herself she would keep her emotions in check.
The Janesville plant was built in 1918 for tractor production and converted to a Chevrolet plant in 1923. Green had worked on the assembly line for 14 years.
When plant and union officials began thanking workers for their years of service, however, she couldn't hold back the tears.
"I was pretty good up until the end. Then I lost it," said Green, 55, of Fort Atkinson. "It was just so somber, so sad."
Green was one of 1,200 employees let go when GM ended production at the southern Wisconsin plant.
Another 800 or so jobs have been lost at local companies that supplied GM parts.
Over the years, workers churned out sedans and SUVs, including Chevrolet Suburbans and GMC Yukons. But demand for big vehicles plummeted during the days of $4 gas this summer and failed to recover as fuel prices came down.
"We gave it a pretty good run for 85 years," said Steve Kriefall, 58, of Janesville. "But these are tough times now, and it's hard to see it come to this."
Kriefall retired from a 25-year career at the plant two years ago, but came back Tuesday for the final day.
The recession and a reluctant to extend credit have further hurt GM and other U.S. automakers. GM's sales have dropped 18 percent, and the company has lost $57.5 billion in the past 18 months.
In response, GM has announced 11,000 U.S. layoffs this year. They include 1,080 workers at a GM plant in Moraine, Ohio, that also closed Tuesday.
About 50 workers will remain at the Janesville plant to complete an order of small- to medium-duty trucks for Isuzu Motors Ltd. They're scheduled to finish by May or June, and then the plant will close for good, GM spokesman Christopher Lee said.
The recent job losses follow years of dwindling employment at the plant, which had 8,000 workers in the early 1990s. Some wonder whether the Janesville area can survive.
"You're already seeing it - lots of people leaving, lots of homes for sale," said Harry Larson, 57, who was an electrician at GM for 25 years. "They'll be looking for work wherever they can find it."
Others are persistently optimistic. Marv Wopat, 61, believes the town can persevere and hopes the automaker will eventually bring a new product to Janesville and its 60,000 residents.
"I believe Janesville will survive because of the community and the quality of people," said Wopat, who retired in July after 40 years with GM. "I believe it will survive, and it will grow, and hopefully it'll grow with GM down the road."
So far, that doesn't seem likely. Even though the White House threw GM and Chrysler LLC a lifeline Friday, offering $17.4 billion in rescue loans, the money isn't likely to trickle down to Janesville.
Before the money was approved, Gov. Jim Doyle had said the Janesville plant would have "no chance" without a bailout, and even with one it would have "a very, very remote chance."
Doyle's spokesman Lee Sensenbrenner said the governor's assessment was unchanged.
"It's still a very remote chance," Sensenbrenner said. "Maybe this keeps the door open a crack, but it's still going to be a difficult journey."
Workers trickled out of the plant in twos and threes after Tuesday's final shift.
Some said they were considering going back to school, but most said weren't sure what the future would hold.
Jeff Schrobel, 50, of Fort Atkinson, said he was considering taking classes toward an engineering degree but wondered whether more schooling would help.
"I'll be 55 when I'm done," Schrobel said. "Will having a degree make any difference at that point?"
Green said she's also considering going back to school, although she doesn't know what she'd study. Meanwhile, she's been cutting back on her Christmas and other spending.
"I'll just have to learn how to get by with less," she said.
Well, the 10-year thing worked for Hyundai, why not GM? Heck, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and 1988 Buick Park Avenue could've had 20-year warranties and not needed them. If it's anything GM does right, it's powertrains!
Wait...isn't an RSX basically an Acura Civic? If it doesn't have a manual transmission it would only have a 4-speed automatic at best, wouldn't it? What the hell is in that transmission that would make it cost $5K to replace?!
There's a guy at work who has a 2003 or so Chevy Impala, just a base model with the 3.4. His transmission recently bit the dust, and was around $2500 or so to replace. At first I was thinking that was a bit premature, but then he said it had about 130,000 miles on it. So okay, it ain't no Torqueflite 727 or THM400. But if I got 130K out of a modern tranny before it chewed itself up, I wouldn't be too irritated with it.
Oh, as an aside, I've seen a commercial on tv a few times for some aftermarket warranty company that says they'll put a warranty on your car as long as it's under 15 years old and less than 200,000 miles. They show examples of how they saved their customers money, and one of the examples they quote is something like "The cost to replace the transmission in this 2003 Intrepid would have been about $3,000, but with our warranty, it didn't cost our customer a cent! I think it's funny that of all the examples out there they could have picked from, they had to pick an Intrepid like mine! :surprise:
The other example they used was a $1200 a/c compressor on an early '00's Caravan. Boy, this sure is pick on Mopar Day, isn't it? :P
Only 130k? That's pathetic. Any transmission that's worth a damn should run for at least 200k with no problems. Dying at 130k is some serious (expletive).
Lucky for him be bought some kind of warranty extension when he bought the car (new) so he's had no out of pocket costs.
And it wasn't even built by the UAW
Heck, my Mom & stepdad's '91 Stanza's tranny started to crap out around 90,000 miles! They were able to nurse it to around 110,000 though, when they sold the car.
Their replacement car, a '99 Altima, crapped its tranny at 35,000. To its credit though, that car has about 275,000 miles on it now, so tranny #2 has proven itself.
Again, it's healthcare that I went in to. I have told my story on here numerous times but I still see a dire need for Medical Assistants, CNA's, LPN's, RN's, Certified Respiratory Therapists and Registered Respiratory Therapists. Get re-trained outside of the auto industry. The American auto industry is in need of a Respiratory Therapist to intubate it and put it on a mechanical ventilator. We'll be watching it's end-tidal CO2, O2 saturations and CO2. Also it's HCO3. GM and the UAW definitely need an Arterial Blood Gas, supplemental oxygen and a mechanical ventilator. See how fun medical work is?
And even though you may not get to save your former company, it is often that you will get to have a hand in saving a little baby in respiratory distress, or help one in being born.
Get re-trained and get started getting the initial paperwork going. You'll want to get a head start on it-I am not so sure that GM is looking out for you at all. After all, it is you, the UAW, that has screwed them over, isn't it?
Make the breath rate 16 and get us another ABG, RT. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
We gave them the bailout money and the UAW lost several 1000 jobs today alone. So what a waste of money. Time for GM to file for bankruptcy. They could just become an auto importer from Korea, India and China. Get rid of all the legacy costs and Union contracts. Maybe make a profit after decades of muddling. All GM has done for the last 40 years is lose money and market share. While the imports have out managed them and seduced their customer base with better cars.
So find me the plants that are old, or make the cars no one wants to buy, and your formula is clear...
You wouldn't buy a 7 bedroom house if you had no kids, you wouldn't set up a hospital the size of the Mayo Clinic in a town of 3,500 people, and they simply have more capacity from the days when they needed it...they don't need it any longer...and they have yet to shut down sufficient plants to reduce their capacity with demand...
I'll agree (Taurus) it was hideous and a dog. I had one as a rental once. But it was the same size and the Camry. However, numbers are fact. Then some brilliant designer decided to round/oval the windows and made it look even worse. Like the offspring of an AMC Pacer. German consultants got Toyota to build cars American would fit in at or around 1979. Celica had dramatic change, including the Tagra band, enormous pistons, and a huge crank. Solid valve lifters made the R20 and the R22 indestructible motors/engines. Since I took many of these apart, they were nearly identical to the Porsche motors. That was Toyota's finest offering and better yet was the Supra's soon to come, when Celica went front wheel drive. The 82 Supra was far superior to the 82 VETT.
VETT has no Japanese match now and Camry/Accord are much better than Taurus. However, there is a Chevy which may soon be the car of the masses. So I hear. There is a wake up call to GM/Ford/UAW and I expect positive results. I don't believe that Toyota/Honda are going to be sitting on their hands either and the more choice out there, the better for the consumer. Union and non union workers, blue collar and white collar, supplier and OEM all know that their families are depending on them to provide.
Police chief's were disappointed that GM did away with the rear wheel drive Caprice/Impala. The 96 Impala SS is a very sought after car. In 02 the Camaro Z28 and SS were discontinued after almost being perfected. In 01 the Catera was discontinued (still sold in Europe as an Opel Omega) and redesigned as the CTS. These were mistakes or miscalculations from my stand point.
The UAW gets blamed for many things beyond their control. Building an aluminum/non sleeved block for the Vega was retarded and a futile attempt to lose weight/gain MPG. That engineer should have been drug tested.
No one figured that going to unleaded gas was going to warp valves. Leaded gas protected valves. So that can be excused as an honest human miscalculation.
This is nothing new in business. Expansion and contraction/surplus and shortage and to reduce inventory they invented the pricing mechanism. At some point the supply and demand curve meet. Thats the market price, where supply meets demand.
Here in Arlington Texas they can produce about 250,000 Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade per year at full capacity. The shorter SUV's and its a state of the art cell system/honey comb factory. Unfortunately, I don't think they can sell them and make a profit. Too bad the night shift and maybe even more people will have to suffer. Some are even UAW. When they rein in their expenses, others will suffer, not just the suppliers. They may have to forgo eating out, cable TV, cell phone service, Internet service, and make other alteration which ripple through out the economy and effect other hard working people. Those coming out of college and ready to set the world on fire, may find experienced newly layed off people competing with them for fewer openings/jobs. When do we figure that were all in this UAW and non UAW?
Everyone is under the impression that the Joint Strike Fighter is the largest military contract out there. In reality, the armed forces handed Boeing a gold mine. They figure they can save more money and do more with Boeing than say the C17 and others.
The UAW need a defibrillator to come back to life. However, when folks lose their health insurance we need to look at the whole picture. My spouse also works for a large consortium of drug makers in the distribution system, directly to patients. I sit in on their philanthropic board and one of these days we are going to find just cause for denying a needy/indigent person.
So what percentage of folks who work in hospitals get these staff infection? I know thats misspelled.
"I can tell you being on the inside that Saturn, isn't going anywhere and Pontiac, will be a niche brand. Those were the words coming from Rick Wagoner and Mark LaNeve. Saab and Hummer, will be sold or closed. "
It's all negotiable my dear. Hummer sold to the mid east and Saab remains to be seen . You aren't trusting management now are you? Oh how quickly they roll , Uaw, this is it, no really , not kidding. They aren't joking. Concede or see what bankruptcy court gives you . There once was an airline named Eastern airlines, their baggage handlers made upper 20's/hr in the '70's.
They refused to negotiate and alas are no more. But what do I know?
Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I. The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as. They may lack education, but nonetheless they are my union brothers/sisters.
What should GM and the UAW do now?
Good question. What would a smart man do? I think this is not just the UAW and GM in crisis. The nation/world is in for a prolong recession/depression. We might be better off thinking of how to shorten the agony. Prices are going down to reduce inventory/over production. Retailers are having customers wanting $1000 items for $200 to $300 as I read today. So my solution is in the short term to get that money thats taking up space to work for a stimulus. Sooner or later that $1000 item is just taking up space and will eventually sell at a loss or have to wait for the economy to recover. Its of no use having an empty home or tires dry rotting on a car. Besides vandals/neglect might make it more of an eyesore and less attractive to consumers. If we as a nation or better yet as a planet, reduced prices and wages in half, we could get those savers to come out and get it over with. This would fuel the economy with idle savings set aside for mindless reasons. If the planet refuses to go along we would have to do it as a buy American deal. This would be the least of any worries, since price would absolutely the main consideration. There would have to be a time lag in which all purchases would be put off prior to the greatest sale on earth. Mainly for big ticket items (homes, autos, boats, and others) 3 months would be reasonable. If wages and prices are cut in half, so are mortgage and car payments (all payments). Only savings accounts/demand deposits would not be cut in half. Nothing sold on credit whatsoever. A cash cows sales event to fuel the economy.
If this works the agony of a protracted downturn would more than likely be shorten. My expectations would be that all that idle money would fuel the economy and have a multiplier effect which would last for years. In those years the GM's and UAW's could plan a little bit better for future rainy days. Then too it may generate enough tax revenue to offset some or maybe all of our govt's debt. Face it all the players, well a good many of them, have been caught with their pants down. None of these irresponsible corporations/unions have been watching out for shareholder/members value.
So now tell me the flaws. If there are none I'm bailing out Obama/Wall Street/America/planet earth.
PS The stock market would not be effected, many are already half price or less.
Then listen to stories from military men and women whose lives literally have been saved by the big, heavy, versatile cousin to the Hummer H1, the Humvee.
Suddenly, it's not important that actor-turned-governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is the biggest fan of the military Humvee and the owner of multiple Hummers. The Hummer H1s sold in the United States last year don't seem like such a big deal as do the thousands of Humvees sold and delivered to the U.S. military.
What matters is that three MPs walked away from a Humvee after its front end was blown off in Bosnia, and that a U.S. Army Ranger in gritty Mogadishu, Somalia, was saved when an RPG—rocket-propelled grenade—failed to penetrate the door of his Humvee.
Stories like these filter back to the South Bend, Indiana, home of the Humvee and Hummer all the time. "In the past month, we have had two phone calls from soldiers who served in Afghanistan who called to say they wanted to thank the people who made the vehicle that saved their lives," said Craig Mac Nab, director of public relations for AM General.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=435127
http://www.geocities.com/baja/8876/military.htm
UAW workers build the Hummer and is proud to support our troops.
You suggested a lot of changes for the US as a whole. Lokki wanted to know what to do about GM and the UAW. Would your plan include changes at the D3 or do you think the US just trying to fix the entire economy is going to be enough to save the D3?
What money? And who would it help? Bush has taken $17.4 billion of the money Congress set aside to protect US from bank failures. Are you referring to the money the banks are supposed to keep in reserve?
DD writes:Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I.
If that bailout money is not going to protect jobs like those lost yesterday. Why bother giving GM money? We know they are building 1000s of vehicles that will just sit to accommodate UAW contracts. It is the work rules that need to be wiped out before GM can run a competitive business. I have not heard the UAW brass addressing these issues. Getting rid of the jobs bank is a good start though insignificant. That is an issue that grinds on all Americans that have lost a job and depend on regular unemployment checks to get by. If all the unemployed were given the same money extended to out of work UAW members it would be about $80 billion per month. They are finding with the $450 per week paid in CA that many people are not bothering to look hard for work. Paying people not to work is a disincentive to try harder.
DD writes:The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as.
There are many first hand reports of UAW workers refusing to do jobs out of their classification. Going on strike for very questionable reasons. Sitting around in rubber rooms reading comics and watching cartoons. Chastising new hires to slow down so they do not make the lazy old timers look bad. I could go on. The UAW is not a good example of what a Union should look like. It looks a lot like some of the Unions in Alaska that I worked with in the early 1970s. Many Unions have gotten by that featherbedding entitlement mentality that still exists in the UAW. Now it is time to pay the piper. The UAW along with the lousy management at GM is on the brink of disaster. The rest of US do not have $38 billion a year to keep them afloat. If the UAW members are your brothers and sisters, send them half your paycheck each month. I have family of my own that I help support.
DD:UAW workers build the Hummer and is proud to support our troops.
I have never said to get rid of the Hummer group. In fact the military is probably one of the few entities in this country that can afford to pay the UAW wages required to build those vehicles. AM General that produces the Humvee and the Hummers for GM is not in any way owned by General Motors. GM contracts with AM General to build the H2 and H3. The H1 is no longer built. I would say those UAW jobs are safe for now. Until the military is gutted by a softer, kinder US government.
I'm looking at this as a macro, the GM/UAW/D3 being a part and or subset of the entire global economy. I look for a rebirth/fresh start to get it together. The auto industry will morph into something in the future. GM or the UAW being a part of those changes is anyones guess. Many of these companies don't want any negative news, because in the end Wall Street is but a giant rumor mill. One can see that Ford wants be excluded from the "Bail-Out". However, if this becomes a long and protracted downturn in the economic cycle, which is long over due, Ford/Toyota/Honda and all the players will be begging for cash infusions, reducing costs, and taking measures to survive.
The price at the pump is directly correlated to the contraction in use of gas. If we get the world economy going again the demand will like it was prior and the price will go to where supply meets demand. So its silly to build Hummer's and Tundra's for consumers who can get the same task, transportation/hauling stuff, in something more efficient. In any case these plants at best would serve a small market segment. The decision makers in the auto companies opted to take ill advised risks and put shareholder value on the back burner. Gov't could have seen this coming and started to do a gradual increase on gas tax to deter demand, encourage building more efficient autos, discourage dependence, and foster innovation in the new technologies.
There is plenty of blame to go around, those who saved their acorns for the rainy day should and will be the winners. It only a question of how long and if they make ill advised business in the future, they should liquidate. Greed drove this as it did in the investment banking. China and India too were looking to become players, and may at some future date. So has anyone here driven a Tata?
Collapse is a great book, written by Jarred Diamond. Its all about what a global economy might entail in a round about way. As the author looks at many civilizations and explains why some didn't make it, while others did. He has two excellent books.
It was head-and-shoulders above the competition from GM and Chrysler (Celebrity/Ciera/6000/Century and the K-cars). Let's face it, a 1986 Taurus in good condition would not look out of place in traffic today, while a Chevrolet Celebrity of the same year looks very outdated.
It was no reliability champ, but neither were the GM and Chrysler competition.
So its silly to build Hummer's and Tundra's for consumers who can get the same task, transportation/hauling stuff, in something more efficient.
While I agree with that statement. I have found it difficult to buy anything that will get the job done using much less gas than a Tundra. My 1999 Ranger Flex Fuel V6 is an absolute gas hog. I only fill about once every 6 weeks and am lucky when I average 15 MPG. Of course that CANNOT be blamed on the UAW. That is fully controlled by the 25% tariff on imported PU Trucks. A gift from LBJ to the UAW and the Big 3 that could not compete against VW and their little 50 MPG VW Rabbit PU truck. So VW built a plant in the USA and that was the beginning of foreign auto makers building factories in the USA. The Big 3 with their overbearing UAW mill stone around their necks, have steadily lost market share since.
Colleges and universities are looking at 529 college saving plans, where money is being parked/invested for educational purposes, for one example. They are making these institutions of higher education more Spa's to attract this money/students. These are some of the most intelligent people when it comes to investing. Unfortunately they have been getting sub par performance in the market. The time lag is on their side, if say they invested it in real estate. I'm talking people like you and I who have CD's and would jump at the chance of getting a GREAT DEAL. Not credit or gov't money which is the same as credit. Black Friday is always going to get a waiting line. There is always going to be people, with cash, sitting on the sidelines waiting for a moment like this. I'm just meeting their price sooner, rather than later.
DD writes:Bailout or no bailout, that was a duplicate plant and was in the master plan all along. These are UAW people and human just like you and I.
At half price, I'll take another CTS and I'll also need a small truck to haul stuff. Your right (leave govt out of it) and the consumer, given the opportunity can reduce the inventory and thereby give the company the capital infusion to restructure to current market conditions. Add that their wages, medical cost, suppliers parts, and all other debt is now only half. They get that second chance to get it together.
DD writes:The article describes them as good hard workers and far from the lazy/indolent stereotype you have labeled them as.
People are people and sometimes they may have other things going on in their lives. Death of a loved one, divorce, medical issues, and other human conditions cause many otherwise good workers to have a bad period during their work years. This is not just a UAW or union issue. There could be a many other reasons why worker is not to your standards. A smart man could get/inspire that employee to
do wonders. Reminds me of Huck Finn getting his peers to paint that fence.
DD:UAW workers build the Hummer and is proud to support our troops.
LTV bought the Jeep/American Motors part of AMC, (see if that is cited anywhere on the net) while it was a conglomerate. Later it divested it, in its ill fated attempt to get straddle the PGBC with its steel workers pensions. Its American as apple pie. I've been in the real thing and they lack the creature comforts (leg room mostly). They can also out climb anything out there, inflate/deflate their tires (on the move), and many more tricks. The H3 is reasonable in that it has a five cylinder and gets about 20 mpg. I can only agree that its an expensive toy for grown boys. If our troops need it, they should get it.
Just as Rocky was bragging his brother bought an Impala for 30% less than MSRP. How does that help the UAW worker? Only cars sold above invoice are helping the B3. Granted no one in their right mind would buy a B3 car above invoice right now. So it is still a dilemma that GM especially has to resolve. If you do not cut the UAW wage and benefits or the retiree health benefits, what do you cut? GM has already cut content that has produced substandard vehicles. Cutting Wagoner's pay to a buck is totally symbolic. Cut wages and benefits to the line workers by 20% and let the retirees pay their own medical, and GM starts to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Not before BIG cuts in wages & benefits occur. That goes for all suppliers as well. And promises for next year or the year after are worthless. GM may not be here 6 months from now.
From what I've heard, a lot of police departments chose to do that, rather than go with a Crown Vic. I've always thought it was interesting that, of the Big Three downsized big police cars, the one that was generally viewed as the weakest, the Crown Vic, would be the last man standing. Back in 1979-81, the Newport/St. Regis/Gran Fury was widely regarded as the best police car, which was ironic because in civilian form, they were usually ranked well below their Ford and GM rivals.
The Impala/Caprice weren't so hot initially, but were more competitive once the Mopar 360 was no longer offered in police cars and the 318-4bbl was the top offering. By 1989, the Caprice was finally starting to surpass the performance levels of a 1979 St. Regis or Newport. And then when the 1994-96 LT1 models hit the streets, they were really a force to be reckoned with.
Even to this day, I don't think the Crown Vic is that much of a performer, as a police car. I think the V-6 Charger and Impala are about the same, performance-wise, while the Hemi Charger would blow it away. Although the Crown Vic is bigger and sturdier, so it could probably stand up to much more abuse.
The Intrepid was used briefly as a police car as well, and was a good performer in all respects except one. Braking. They actually had a habit of bursting into flames if you were hard enough on them! :surprise: There's a 2004 Intrepid copcar for sale at a local used car lot that I've been keeping my eye on. But maybe I'd better leave it alone!
That stuff on their lots is just taking up space and as a consumer I'm just looking for a deal. GM and the UAW worker can make more cars in hopes that the economy will pick up and demand will surpass supply. Then they have whats called a profit. A liquidation is nothing but a fire sale and folks look to get things for pennies on the dollar. This is nothing new. Our economy has always worked like this. When the prices of homes went up, sellers didn't have any problems raking in profits. The buyers also thought they were better off buying. Thats during an up market aka sellers market. Often bidding war to buy homes are common in sellers markets. Now that its the buyers market, the seller has to make up the difference between what he/she owes and the sale price. Now they have problems in having to add money to get out. The term upside down, GAP insurance, and short sales have been used to describe this issue.
In any economic transaction both parties walk away with something they feel better off with. Much like UAW/GM negotiations. Many who owe more on an asset (auto/home) than they are currently worth, shouldn't expect a buyer to bail them out. Either sit and wait for better times or pay the difference between the assets market value and what the bank has you on the hook for.
Give up retirees medical? Where is this free lunch described in capitalism? There is no free lunch and your just pushing that cost off onto the taxpayers. Why is that different than a bail out? Remember both parties walk away happy in an economic transaction. True that buyers remorse is a fact of life, but as they say buyer beware.
Got it.....
It doesn't look like you have any suggestions directly for the UAW/GM to improve their chances. That's pretty hands off for a business on the verge of death. Even Wagoner is making more changes than that.
I doubt that GM has ever felt they got a good deal with the UAW contract negotiations. They settled rather than fight. For the last 20+ years they have been caught between Dealer demands, UAW demands and retiree legacy costs. The Health care was an open ended stupid thing to agree to. Setting a pension figure is a gamble that the retiree will only live a given number of years. Health care has no real cost limit.
As far as being into a vehicle for more than expected. I was caught once by GMAC sleazy financing and learned my lesson. They used to apply all payment to the total interest before starting on principle. That is fine if you keep the vehicle for the length of the loan. I sold after 3 years and got a real surprise. That was the only time I used GMAC. I think the Feds passed some kind of law against the practice. Another good reason for buyer beware in Any transaction.
There is no free lunch and your just pushing that cost off onto the taxpayers. Why is that different than a bail out?
Not sure your point. The UAW workers paid into Medicare same as most of the rest of US. It is not my fault they give the services to people that never paid in or paid very little. Besides there is a premium. I pay $96 out of my SS each month plus a $30 supplemental to Kaiser. Thankfully I have not needed any health care services so that money is in the SS bank for when I do need it. Same should work for the UAW retirees. It is about time all the civil service employees including Congress went on the same plan. We are wasting billions each year with gold plated health plans like the UAW has, on retired teachers, firemen, police, sewer workers, meter maids etc etc....
The bailout is corporate welfare that was never paid for in advance like Medicare has been.
Why did we allow Japan to build plants in the USA, when our guys were kept out Japan due to heavy taxation????I realize the first answer will be our "Crummy Cars".
Japan is a little island with no where to go, so all one needs is a little put-put, not a big Yankee car..
Our Congress can't wait to see the Big3 fail, they have been corroding it's impact for years..
I remember a bumper sticker that I saw yesterday, "I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money, you keep the change"..Explains my view..
Proud to support the American Manufacturing base controlled by Detroit's Big3, which has helped maintain our freedoms and supplied the needed equipment to defeat our enemies..
Maybe we will have a solar,battery,or hybrid powered tank for the next conflict..you think???? I am sure some pointy-headed kool-aid drinker will be given a basket of money to start such research to satisfy the environmental whackos who are really excited about demise of Detroit..I hear California is out of dough, years of liberal spending!!!! No, Arnie is no conservative!!!!!! Anybody that pushes hydrogen cars is dreaming---he used that to get the lib vote..
When it is all said and done the UAW will get a haircut---very short this time..
In Japan Toyota has about 6000 workers, of which 3000 are temp help and laid off due to their slumping sales..Nobody has come forward saying what the temps are paid in Japan or in their transplant assy plts inthe USA..
Even Russia is complaining about the slowdown whereas the cheap Japanese are stealing sales from the Russian brands, now we know Putin will solve that problem.
Buy American and put the country back to work, Big3 that is!!!!, boot the Asians out and see if the country doesn't respond with glee..
Thats why CEO's get the big bucks. MIS (management information systems) gives them more insight into the "business" that they operate. I could only offer technical advise and maybe some marketing help. They all have these radical ideas which run against my personal views at first anyway. Such as a JIT (just in time), Green belt, black belt, sigma six certification, and a host of different issues which have made Toyota the darlings of the business schools/industrial engineering/supply chain. It all goes back to what would a smart man do. Besides, I'm too much an asset in my current position. However, the question is almost like asking one to rate a book which has yet to be read.
So they owning the means of production means nothing? We can only agree that no one wins in a strike situation????
The UAW workers paid into Medicare same as most of the rest of US.
Medicare kicks in at 65 and if someone goes prior, in this case the insurance is funded by the company. For example if they offer an early out at 55 years old, the company would pay the entire insurance, if fully vested, for that person and maybe their dependent, until the age of 65, when Medicare would kicks in. There and after they would just cover the medigap. You opted for Kaiser and the agreement via Medicare/gov't expands your benefits as the gov't trys to steer people to managed care plans.
So if this person who has retired early has the carpet pulled out from under. He or she might or more than likely seek medical attention at the county hospital. So now local gov't and or the local taxpayers get the tab.
If you take their pension away, the PGBC has to use real money generated from taxes to pay a retiree.
I retired before 65 and just bit the bullet and paid my own health care for two years. Why is it always someone else that should pay the UAW retirees health care. The Teamster's in Alaska realized decades ago they could not survive paying health benefits for early retirees. Why was GM and the UAW so stupid as to think they could?
They could go to county hospital or if they were veterans go to the VA hospital. This cradle to grave mentality will be the death of this country. Look what is happening in Japan and Germany. I can guarantee for 50% of my income like Germany taxes I could get one heck of a platinum health care plan. Far superior to what Germany offers its citizens. MOre companies are moving out of Japan as a result of high taxes and the strong Yen.
To entice/lure the worker to retire early they made a cost benefit judgment. Pay the current employees medical cost and $28 an hour. Or hire a new employee and pay his medical plus about $14 an hour. Otherwise they would have had little chance in getting that employee to retire. GM saves $14 and hour for the long term. Others would never be replaced and GM saves the entire $28 an hour plus the cost of medical. I'm sure that there more, like overtime of $42 for the retiring employee and $21 for the new employee. Then too they more than likely enjoy working employees overtime as opposed to hiring the additional employee. First they don't pay any more vacation, holiday, medical, retirement, and other costs by not hiring the additional employee to do away with the need for overtime. Add to that the fact that when inventory is high they just need to cut back on overtime as opposed to laying off. The union has the responsibility of representing employees and looking out for their best interests. Seniority is very important and is one of the biggest reasons a collective bargaining employee is protected from age discrimination in many cases. Any simple mind would be able to figure that the $14 an hour employee is a better deal than the high seniority $28 an hour employee. So to a company it would be "just good business sense" lay off out of seniority and or terminate senior top paid employees.
So the issue of working out of job families and or bring seniority into a new job family is commonly addressed to protect seniority and the moving special pet people/nepotism/cronyism which could crop up in the event of pending lay offs. So the UAW has to be on guard and therefore work outside ones job classification is considered a displacement. How would you feel if you were on lay off and some other person outside of your craft and or a outside contractor was doing your job?
More companies are moving out of Japan as a result of high taxes and the strong Yen.
I'm aware that the weak dollar as opposed to the strong yen should increase exports. More exports and or American made good become more attractive (price wise) overseas. Hence, they project that the manufacturing base will increase in America. For that matter the dollar is taking a beating against many currencies. This is a result of increasing the money supply. The FED has decide to decrease the interest rates and forgo the fear of inflation. They did so to reduce the inventory of housing. For each point the interest rate increases, there are that many fewer qualified buyers for this housing glut.
Thats why CEO's get the big bucks. MIS (management information systems) gives them more insight into the "business" that they operate. I could only offer technical advise and maybe some marketing help.
I can't stop laughing..... You have plenty of advice for everyone else..... but you're only advice for GM regarding saving the company is -
"What time's dinner and make sure the cook doesn't skip on the desserts!"
Well, there's no point in continuing the discussion.... I'm done here.
Oh, but I hope your UAW gets its just deserts!
So what do you make of the long waiting list of consumers waiting to buy a new Camaro?
The economy was up for the past 3-4 years and even profitable SUVs were selling well, and GM was still not making a profit. They need to try a different formula.
The problem is that they are too short-sighted. The strike in the last year at a GM plant where the most successful vehicles are being built as an example. WHILE GM was losing money. To look out for the employees' best interests the company has to survive. Which is not going to happen if you strangle the company. I guess this particular union is not too bright. Now Goldfinger is giving the taxpayer the finger by holding a hard line on union benefits while we all chip in.
Seniority is very important
That's part of the problem. Performance should be important. If a CEO is not performing, fire him (like Wagoner). If a union (or any) employee is not performing, fire him. It shouldn't matter how long they've been at the company.