ECO 101 All barriers, hurdles, and tariffs deter competition and therefore are one in the same.
Good economics is HAVING FAIR TRADE WITH THESE NATIONS WHO DUMP THIER CARS ON US SOIL -- HOW MANY AMERICAN CARS ARE THEY ALLOWING IN THEIR NATIONS? Good economics is taking measures to make sure that one's future is not dependent on how many foreign car companies have displaced american car companies, just because these foreign car companies (and other businesses) were able to take over the market by having TRADE BARRIERS AGAINST AMERICAN PRODUCTS IN THEIR HOME NATIONS.
Can we quote the Wall Street Journal? "Richardson Texas will be the BOOM town year 2000"
In many ways, it's worse. Like the massive declines in the nation's steel, oil and automobile industries in decades past, the disintegration of the telecom business is leaving deep wounds in the U.S. work force. But labor historians say telecom stands out for the unprecedented speed of the boom-and-bust cycle. After telecom was deregulated in 1996, it quickly expanded by some 331,000 jobs before peaking in late 2000. Since the downturn started, though, companies have announced layoffs that have wiped out all those new jobs and more -- a total of well over 500,000 workers, according to a tally by The Wall Street Journal. By contrast, it took two decades for the ranks of the United Auto Workers to fall to 732,000 from 1.5 million, as the auto industry was forced to become much more efficient in the face of foreign competition.
but sometimes you have to go to an extreme to make a point. i think the automotive industry is a basic part of our identity as the USA. maybe we should change the flag to a white t shirt. it's cheaper to produce and not much can go wrong with it.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Barriers, hurdles, and tariffs are one in the same. They steal from the consumer in higher prices and limit the choice the consumer has.
That is exactly what I have tried to get through to you. Your misconception that all these countries do not want US goods is malarkey. What they want is QUALITY GOODS, that America was once famous for. Not the crap the B3 tries to sell. GM cars in foreign countries built by foreign workers are selling very well. What does that tell you about our labor force and especially the UAW? They are doing substandard work and given substandard materials to cover for their past sins. Sins that both the management and the UAW have brought onto the B3 and especially GM.
The Big 3 cannot continue to pay $1000 per month to 700,000 retirees for Health Care. If the B3 sells 6,000,000 cars this year that amounts to $1400 per car. They are selling their cars at below cost. So someone gets left out in the cold. The UAW does not want to give up their gravy train so where do you suppose that money will come from?
Tax payers making way less than UAW workers should not be strapped with that burden.
Thankfully Obama is not opposed to saying one thing and doing another.
He spoke just a few hours after the Bush administration announced an emergency bailout of the U.S. auto industry, offering $17.4 billion in rescue loans in exchange for concessions from carmakers and their workers.
Obama said those steps are necessary and the companies must not "squander the chance" to change bad management practices. He said it's "absolutely necessary" to restructure the companies to save the industry, while also working toward creating "fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow."
While Obama declined to say specifically what changes he might make to the Bush administration's plan, he had a message for the Big Three auto companies: "The American people's patience is running out" and management must "seize on this opportunity" over the next few months to come up with a sustainable plan for survival.
He got that right. The average American is not interested in supporting a bunch of featherbedding Union people making more money reading comic books and eating Jelly donuts than they are working hard to just make ends meet. The UAW has become a pathetic Union. And MOST Americans feel the same as I do. YOU are in a very small minority with Rocky.
Although the U.S. auto market is in the midst of one of the largest slumps in recent history, America’s love affair with the car should ensure that the market will eventually rebound. On the other side of the world, the Japanese auto market is also in a state of decline. However, “kuruma banare” may prevent the market from ever rebounding there.
Simply translated, kuruma banare means “demotorization” — a trend that has been affecting the Japanese auto market since 1990. While many factors have contributed to the demotorization of Japan, the biggest reason for the decline is that the youth have fallen out of love with the automobile.
the biggest reason for the decline is that the youth have fallen out of love with the automobile.
Too bad they have not fallen out of love with them here. It would sure clear up a lot of congestion on the roads and highways. By the time the UAW and the government get done with this bailout NO ONE will be able to afford a car. The taxes will see to that.
All barriers, hurdles, and tariffs deter competition and therefore are one in[sic] the same.
(I suspect that you meant to write "...therefore are one and the same". Before posting, use the preview feature to avoid embarrassment.)
I'm not sure that tariffs are the problem here. Tariffs might explain why a working-class consumer chooses Chinese-made sneakers over similar sneakers made in North America that cost $8 more, but they clearly aren't the reason why well-to-do Americans would rather buy a $55K Mercedes E350 than a $45K Cadillac CTS. Even at the family sedan level - Accord vs. Malibu, for example - purchasing decisions are generally based on perceived differences in quality & reliability as opposed to price.
Good economics is HAVING FAIR TRADE WITH THESE NATIONS WHO DUMP THIER[sic] CARS ON US SOIL -- HOW MANY AMERICAN CARS ARE THEY ALLOWING IN THEIR NATIONS?
How many American cars are built with the steering wheel on the right side of the car to meet the need of Japanese drivers?
why a working-class consumer chooses Chinese-made sneakers over similar sneakers made in North America that cost $8 more
You have many other factors here. The super star endorsements and a worker/child is being exploited. Unfortunately, if the public relations of these corporations were concern about image, if only we could see the whole picture. New Balance (made in USA) seems to compete with no super star endorsement and have to abide by labor standards Americans in general agree upon. I'm not for less competition, just leveling the field and unfortunately unions are still the best things ever invented for workers. Its not a question of the end of the UAW, but rather a question of the rebirth and how big. Left unchecked, things tend to come on bigger and stronger. Much like a force in physics, the pendulum swings with momentum both ways. Big business, big government, and big labor go hand in hand. Without one abuse is common in civilizations.
Deregulation of the banking system is enough evidence that there was nothing to keep capitalism in check. Bailouts and consolidations are what we have to consider. Bailouts will foster competition later on, while consolidations will concentrate power and is less attractive to the consumer in the long run. I understand your ideals and respect them. However, this is a far cry from that perfect Utopian world envisioned by the classical liberal. So one must pick their poison.
but they clearly aren't the reason why well-to-do Americans would rather buy a $55K Mercedes E350 than a $45K Cadillac CTS.
Perhaps your right. My take is a little different. There is plenty of room for the different makes in the market. Having knowledge that many opt to lease. Hence, being able to upgrade or lower their monthly payment, most choose to lease. Over 70% of the Infinity dealers (in Plano Texas) business has been leasing. One might argue that those same folks could afford the CTS payments, but their egos got the better of them and in any case figured their status would elevated by driving a Benz. Much like those suburban youngsters, who want the Bentley that their rapper hero's drive, but see the Chrysler 300 as the knock off look alike alternative.
irregardless is a great word for you, and for that matter the Jesuit trained writer bicker about.
Bailouts generally lead to more bailouts, not to greater competition. If you want to foster real competition within the auto industry, you'll favor bankruptcy reorganization. A post-bankruptcy GM, with its costs under control & its new management focused on its star brands, would be a ferocious competitor.
irregardless is a great word for you
LOL! Very good, dallasdude1! Drinks will be on me if you ever catch me using that word. I've always preferred "irrespective".
Then the next morning the custom officials went on strike. Actually the whole country went on strike. In all, 700,000 people (the total population, including kids, is about 6,000,000) were on strike last week in Israel, including Emma's kindergarten teacher and the public health nurse that Cathy was scheduled to see with Akiva. Banks and the post office were closed. Garbage wasn't collected and buses didn't run. The airport was closed to international traffic for four days. The strike started when the Labor Minister insulted the unionized workers of Israel by calling them "time-bombs waiting to explode." When we asked friends when the strike would end, they seemed quite blasé about it, saying strikes happened all the time and this one would end in a day or two. If a comparable strike were held in the US, 25-30 million people would be on picket lines. Considering its magnitude, there little commentary in the newspaper about the strike, so we were left a bit perplexed about why the strike began or how it ended.
>Do you know how much that would reduce the cost of producing a Big Three vehicle? Only about $800. ...
>but the Big Three already often sell their cars for about $2,500 less than equivalent cars from Japanese companies
This says that for a comparable size car, the D3 cars would sell for roughly $3300 less. Now that is in line with their quality. People don't want to pay the extra $800 for quality that does not exist.
And reducing the UAW wage is not really to reduce cost of the vehicle, imo, it is to show UAW what their work is actually worth. Reality check. So far they have lived a life of entitlement, with almost no pride for their work. After that, they want the US consumers to feel proud in buying an american made UAW product. How do you expect the US consumers to feel pride in buying one, when there is none in making it?
High school kid runs a 4:08 mile and comes in 4th place at a high school meet. His parents run over and congratulate him. Chikoo goes over to him and says he needs to be buried in a grave and the sooner the better. He is not top quality. He is not Toyota material. Sorry, but I don't support the 'only the best deserve to survive 'mentality that is preached here.
I exist because of the greatness on Americans working together as a team. Too bad many from the other team have infiltrated our ranks. The ramifications of destroying American auto industry? 55% of America doesn't care. We have gone from team players to 'what's in it for me'.
55% of America doesn't care. We have gone from team players to 'what's in it for me'.
I believe if you interviewed some of that 55% which is probably closer to 75% they would say the UAW has lost the vision of being a team player. They are only in it for their own personal greed. That the auto industry revolves around them not those that buy the cars they make. How would you assess the strikes this year by the UAW against GM? They found some lame excuse to shut down some of the plants that were making the only vehicles that GM could sell. I don't see that as a team player. They were being big bullies to get their way at American Axle. A company that could see there was no way to give into the UAW and still make a profit. Whether you accept the concept or not. The only reason the big 3 and its suppliers exist is to make a profit. The workers making a living wage is a side benefit not the goal of the corporation.
10 billion a month for Iraq to have a different gov't structure. Billions for reducing disease in Africa. How many billions in soc. sec. money to illegal aliens?
Without American manufacturing we would be a Japanese colony.
A ten year old boy is interviewed by ABC news and responds that maybe we should not have made a loan to the B3 because "America's already in debt". My grandfather could have said that when he was 10 years old.
Can someone describe to me the place America would become if auto quality caught that of Japan, and how that would CHANGE MY life? Would I be able to have better schools? Better weather? Better returns from my investments? Better health? more free time? better home appreciation? lower taxes? lower car costs? lower food costs? lower clothing costs? lower fuel costs? lower utilities? cheaper insurance? better roads?
NO to all of the above.
what is 13.4 billion? what is my tax increase to the fed if the loan is not repaid? $134 per each of 100M taxpayers, or less than 2 months of my water bill.
We have gone from team players to 'what's in it for me'.
Well, I guess that I'm guilty of not being a "team player" - whatever that means. I've got this quaint, silly idea that companies exist to serve me, not the other way around. If a company makes things that I want to buy, charges prices that I'm willing to pay & brings these opportunities to my attention via effective advertising, then that company will get my business.
If a company fails to do any of the above, then it doesn't deserve my business. In that case, it should fix the problem & earn my patronage, not beg the government to hold me down while it picks my pockets for a so-called "loan".
It's that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, the marketplace is governed by 2 ironclad rules:
Rule 1 - the customer is always right Rule 2 - there are absolutely no exceptions to Rule 1
Don't hold customers accountable for the slow-motion suicide of the American auto industry. Remember - the customer is always right.
what is 13.4 billion? what is my tax increase to the fed if the loan is not repaid? $134 per each of 100M taxpayers, or less than 2 months of my water bill.
Then you won't mind picking up my share of the cost of this fiasco & paying out an extra 2 months. I have other plans for my money.
Unless you can prove to my complete satisfaction that the government & the auto makers can do a better job of spending my money than I can, you have no business putting your hand in my pocket.
Unless you can prove to my complete satisfaction that the government & the auto makers can do a better job of spending my money than I can, you have no business putting your hand in my pocket.
That is a concept that is totally foreign to a progressive Liberal. They believe, right, wrong or indifferent that the government should have the authority to take as much of your money as they see fit. Then they will decide how much you should get back if you vote the way they tell you to. Kind of like the UAW. I would imagine in a Big 3 factory lot you would have gotten your car keyed with a McCain bumper sticker.
Agreed, Gary. I've always thought that if I was smart enough to earn the money in the 1st place, chances are pretty good that I'm smart enough to spend it. I promise not to blow it on porn or crack cocaine.
I exist because of the greatness on Americans working together as a team.
That's wonderful, then you should really be on the case of the UAW. They've been adversarial, detrimental to the auto makers, thuggish with strikes, asked for the moon and never made a big scene about product quality, only about their precious benefits and how they can get more. They don't know how to do a job they are not categorized for, they have no flexibility and run like an Eastern European country. They are the farthest thing from teamwork possible, except for their own clan. Thank you for your support in building a strong Detroit 3 for the USA.
Soooooooooooooo, they spread the health costs of their retirees across the entire nation. Then we require all private companies to provide insurance to each employee. Both you and I enjoyed private insurance prior to Medicare. That cost is passed on to the consumer. Maybe we need to follow their lead in having national health? Hence, this goes beyond the UAW and the Big Three.
Unless you can prove to my complete satisfaction that the government & the auto makers can do a better job of spending my money than I can, you have no business putting your hand in my pocket
Did you support the recent bail out? Did they convince you that your share of this debt was worthwhile? Why or who decided that JP Morgan/Chase would consolidate some and others would get bail out money?
JP Morgan got Bear Sterns, and Wamu Bank Of America got CountryWide We are now seeing the credit card interest rates increasing, because of less competition. I personally don't carry balances, however, those who do will pay. Less competition means the consumer pays more. Its a no brainer that fewer auto companies would mean higher prices and therefore the UAW and the Big Three need to stay in business.
Both you and I enjoyed private insurance prior to Medicare.
Yes while we were working. So does the imports provide health care for their working employees. Our Union being much wiser than the UAW could see that offering health insurance into perpetuity for retirees would bankrupt the Union. So way back in the early 1990s they told retirees you are on your own. They also raised the age of retirement from 45 to 57 years of age. It is time for the legacy costs of health care to be given back to the retirees. If it is going to keep GM from being profitable it needs to be cut. It is sad that the UAW tacked it onto the current employees wage package. That is not the fault of the average American that sees that wage package of $75 per hour.
We are now seeing the credit card interest rates increasing, because of less competition.
That is not true. My sister was strapped with 31% years ago, after one late payment on her $10k balance. My rate has stayed at 8.75% for at least 10 years. I also do not carry a balance as paying any interest on CC debt is a losing proposition. Higher rates are needed to discourage frivolous borrowing.
They've been adversarial, detrimental to the auto makers, thuggish with strikes, asked for the moon and never made a big scene about product quality, only about their precious benefits and how they can get more.
You can't possibly be speaking of today. These folks broke bread in Black Lake. Michigan. They communicated in a civil manner. Both parties have worked out major differences and your just reading sensationalized media. The UAW did agree to employee buy outs and lower starting pay (a two tier wage scale) on more than one occasion.
You fail to see anything wrong with the Japanese national health care system. At the end of the day we are just looking at where the health care money for these retirees and employees comes from. This is the problem which we as a nation need to solve and see for what it is. As all the baby boomer's start to retire and get on with their later years, they need more medical services. Do we spread this cost across the entire nation as they do in Japan? Would this be more problematic? If you needed a bypass is it fine, by you, to have an OBGYN do it? Flexibility?
Our Union being much wiser than the UAW could see that offering health insurance into perpetuity for retirees would bankrupt the Union
perpetuity: Would mean forever, hence the heirs would get it then. Unfortunately UAW members die. At 65, Medicare kicks in and then they are afforded a MediGap, which is affordable/available to the average retiree. Fact is that if you opt into one of the approved govt health care providers, you get it free.
So does the imports provide health care for their working employees.
Only those that are not in the mother land get private insurance. So as a whole Toyota/Honda they can factor their total health care cost with the generous subsidy from the mother land. While they do have Corolla's/Tacoma's coming off the UAW line in California, they have a Corolla's coming from Japan too. A clever PR gimmick to fool the masses.
That is not the fault of the average American that sees that wage package of $75 per hour.
You like many others like to factor in the legacy cost, the sticker shock effect, to outrage the general public. You fail to mention that cost will be borne by the taxpayers if the Big Three go under. You also fail to mention that if they wait in line at the county hospitals, that cost is five time or more than that of going to the doctors office. The facts are that the average Walmart employee costs to tax revenues is $2000 each per year, for either their too expensive plans for the masses of part timers.
Myth: the UAW make too much and that makes american cars unaffordable.
Myth: a 20% UAW cut to the upper tier UAW earners would make D3 cars affordable.
Fact: Even though assembly labor to make a Greensburg Civic are 3% of the total car cost after using 890 robots, for GM, assembly labor is 10% of the cost of the car. A 20% cut in these wages from $27 down to $22 an hour applies just to the upper tier workers and only lowers the labor cost of a car from 10% to 9%. That only allows GM to shave 1% off the car price to maintain current (non)profit levels.
Myth: American cars are more expensive when you factor in quality and depreciation.
Fact: I test drove and was offered a starting price of $18700 plus tax for an '09 Malibu. Stability control, disc brakes all around, automatic trans, power seat, XM, onstar, quiet glass, plenty of power, 30 mpg hwy, power mirrors. That price included $1050 for the body side moldings so there was room to negotiate. Nobody has yet found a quality flaw on one of these.
I didn't get a Toyota quote to compare but window stickers on Camry were $23k and up last time I checked. I doubt that the depreciation difference matters much when your neighbors house becomes bank owned and yours loses $19k overnight.
What could help more than a 20% UAW wage cut? A 2% shift in American market share from 49% to 51% would have double the impact of all UAW concessions combined.
factory lot you would have gotten your car keyed with a McCain bumper sticker.
Might be the opposite here in Texas. The UAW doesn't have any monopoly on ignorant silly people. Fact is that there was a gentleman keying expensive gas guzzling auto's/SUV's in a very affluent neighborhood here in Texas. They have since caught him and coined him the "ECO TERRORIST". No telling how much time and effort went into this case. The moral to this story is don't jack with rich peoples toys. Case closed!
Thats common for late/no payments. I'm talking current.
When John Dykstra got his September credit card bill from Advanta, a small-business card issuer, he was shocked: Dykstra says he has a good credit score and has never missed a payment, but his interest rate had jumped from 7.99% to 26%.
He's not alone. Card issuers from Bank of America to Capital One are using the economic crisis as a reason to raise rates. According to Consumer Action's 2008 survey of card companies, Bank of America, Citi, and Capital One have recently said that "market conditions" could cause them to increase APR's.
Exactly. When the balance sways to heavily to one side, the system breaks. Now, it's time to re-balance back to fairness and value. That goes for the cars themselves as well.
That's correct. It's going to go that way if everyone is to be covered by health insurance. No more free rides, especially with the UAW. Sayonara baby!
Less competition means the consumer pays more. Its a no-brainer that fewer auto companies would mean higher prices and therefore the UAW and the Big Three need to stay in business.
Only if supply matches demand. Don't forget the Chinese. Auto prices will fall for the foreseeable future. The UAW will not exist as a powerful force any longer.
Do we spread this cost across the entire nation as they do in Japan? Would this be more problematic? If you needed a bypass is it fine, by you, to have an OBGYN do it? Flexibility?
I don't think anyone in their right mind want a health care system like Canada, Japan or the UK. You would be lucky in those countries to be even considered for any major replacements in less than a year. There is no way that every one that needs a kidney or a heart transplant can have one. Look at what is not covered in these government health plans for a real view of what you are asking for. Several states have universal health care. In Hawaii it is a LONG wait to get in for an examination for most any ailment.
We are headed for National debt that matches Japan's. It will not be a pretty thing for those that have to pay it back. Or the interest when the rates eventually go back to a reasonable level.
All the concessions made by the UAW are future except for the two tier hiring and the buyouts. Why didn't the existing employees get cut at all? Because they are greedy. They would rather sacrifice the new hires and retirees than carry some of the burden. Their companies are going BROKE and they act like it is their god given right to live on top of the heap. UAW workers are at the top end of the UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. Time to face reality. They are not worth that much money. Too many people right here in the USA would love to work for half of what the UAW worker gets. That is what the market will bear. These are not Chinese children that are looking for a better life. They are RIGHT here in the good ole USA. Check out the credentials of the new sec of Labor. She will be leaning toward getting all the illegals on board and in the system. You have always defended their right to be here. What will you say when they take the jobs for less than the UAW is willing to take?
I like it when man defies economic law. I'm amazed at that young doctor, who goes to third world countries to help. The dogma that man will act in their own interest in a greedy manner is true to some extent. Myself, I often ask what would a smart man do? Being blessed by the UAW, a great family, a great job, and so many more things, materialist/spiritual.
I sold my home about 5 years ago, paid off and no mortgage, and rented for 3 years. About a year ago I purchased, for much less than the original price. I waited for this buyers market.
There is a 65 inch in the media room. All the creature comforts.
I use the Chase Freedom card, pay it off each month. They give me about $500 a year to use it.
I got me the CTS with navigation and Bose/sport package for about $10,000 below sticker. The way women look at that car is all telling. However, my wife doesn't allow me to date.
I often pick up a needy/homeless person and take them with to the good food store, Central Market, for food. Yeah, they sometimes reek.
My wife (she is an angel) and I have more or less been taking care of a mentally ill person to help out. Face it some can function with medication, some can't. Its consumes money as well as time. Its the humanitarian thing to do and we don't seek the praise of mere men.
The me generation is passé and something better needs to come. All large organizations have good and evil. The UAW is no exception, and neither is corporate America and or big govt. They have natural checks and balances. Now what would a smart man do?
We are headed for National debt that matches Japan's.
National health is NOT responsible for Japan's National debt. They undertook a massive infrastructure rebuilding during their credit crisis, much like our predicament now.
Is there any better national health system out there better than ours?
Only if supply matches demand. Don't forget the Chinese. Auto prices will fall for the foreseeable future. The UAW will not exist as a powerful force any longer.
I see this going full circle. Globalization says that labor rates will equalize at some future date. Hence, equal buying power and trade deficits should be gone by then. If you don't see an enormous uprising in China, your not being a realist. They now have a middle class about the size of ours. However, they have one fifths of the worlds population. If the economic downturns become protracted they will have social hell. Unions/THE UAW will rise to offset big business and the oppressive govt.
Just as deregulation (Reagan ERA legacy) got us into this sub prime mess, over regulation will be as bad in the foreseeable future. You ain't seen nothing yet. No one even blinked an eye as Phil Gramm pushed the ENRON loophole in DEC of 2000. Coincidently Phil's wife was on the ENRON payroll. Certainly you didn't think that the GOP would be in power for ever? It looked that way for a long while. As a classical liberal, I'm more for business and freedom than either party as they are in the pockets of special interests. We might even be able to do the bail out with all the special interest money being spent in Washington (UAW included). However, they see this as a cost benefit issue and expect to bring in more than they spend.
Did you support the recent bail out? Did they convince you that your share of this debt was worthwhile? Why or who decided that JP Morgan/Chase would consolidate some and others would get bail out money?
No, I did not support the financial bailout. I've made that crystal clear elsewhere in this forum.
JP Morgan got Bear Sterns, and Wamu Bank Of America got CountryWide We are now seeing the credit card interest rates increasing, because of less competition.
I haven't paid any credit card interest since Carter was in the White House, so this doesn't matter to me.
Its a no brainer that fewer auto companies would mean higher prices and therefore the UAW and the Big Three need to stay in business.
Your premise doesn't support your conclusion. Yes, less competition leads to higher prices, but it simply doesn't follow from this that a taxpayer-funded bailout is the best way to promote competition. Bankruptcy will give GM & Ford their clearest shot at becoming nimble & responsive companies that can focus on what customers want. (It's probably too late to save Chrysler, anyway.)
There's some fat that should be cut...maybe once the globalists get their way of destroying any semblance of a western standard of living, incomes and revenue proceeds will be so low that the organization can be killed off.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many public sector workers are "libertarian" "free market" (globalization) supporters, when their own careers involve at least as much excessive perks as any union...
Only those that are not in the mother land get private insurance. So as a whole Toyota/Honda they can factor their total health care cost with the generous subsidy from the mother land. While they do have Corolla's/Tacoma's coming off the UAW line in California, they have a Corolla's coming from Japan too. A clever PR gimmick to fool the masses.
Dallasdude...
You can whine all you want about the Japanese, but the big 3 have had since 1970 to figure out how to make cars that Americans prefer to those the Japanese make.
The Japanese aren't going away. They are here, and building cars in America, using American labor. The flaws in your argument that the Japanese are causing all your problems by not playing fair have been repeatedly pointed out to you.
Recall that as far back as 1980, Americans started choosing to pay MORE for Japanese cars instead of choosing American made vehicles. As far as the Japanese not importing American vehicles, we've shown you logical reasons (even discounting Detroit's historical quality problems) that American cars don't sell in Japan. ... And God knows that Toyota tried to make it happen.
Toyota sold American made RHD Cavaliers - at Toyota dealerships - in Japan from 1993 to 2000. I've actually saw ONE on the streets to Tokyo....
Additionally, as also been pointed out to you with gas always selling for around $5 a gallon in Japan, there is not much interest in big cars. The Kei class has around 40 percent of the new car market in Japan right now.... with engines about the size of your riding lawn mower. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/11/kei-car-sales-up-japan.php Nobody wants a Pontiac Grand Prix or a G5 even if they were RHD.
As for the health insurance, we've shown you the flaw in that argument too. Worse health care, and the cost isn't any cheaper, it just reduces the incomes of everyone.
Now why don't you just come out and say it:
You believe that America owes you a fat living, and that other Americans should be forced to buy Big 3 cars, no matter what you make, and that we should pay for your health insurance and retirement plans.... even if we don't have those things ourselves.
I'm pretty well done with this discussion.... nothing is going to change your mind (sic) and we're starting to circle back to the same arguments again. You make them, we debunk them, and then you bring them back.
Even if Japan disappeared, and you got your free(sic) health care, those things aren't going to make people want to buy exclusively American cars. The Koreans, Chinese, and the Europeans will step in.
The UAW model is simply unsustainable. There once was no doubt a flourishing buggy-whip maker's union (The UBW?), but they're gone now. The rail workers once ruled the world.... how many of them are left.
You should go and join the Longshoremen while they're still powerful. They have about 10 - 15 years left before they join the UAW and the UBW. However, their gravy train just moved to Mexico. http://www.portsamerica.com/pdf/PuertaMexicoGrandOpen.pdf
It is because of people like your sister who can't or won't be responsible borrowers, that have purchased homes, cars, debt they can't afford that have helped the band and mortgage companies fold. So don't try to make us feel sorry for your sister.
I worked for the Social Security Administration from 1974 until 1980 or 81. That was my only stint in the public sector.
Went into that a liberal big-government Dem. Came out of it a libertarian.
There's some fat that should be cut...maybe once the globalists get their way of destroying any semblance of a western standard of living, incomes and revenue proceeds will be so low that the organization can be killed off.
Now, you've lost me. Are you saying that we should bail out the losers? Or are you saying that a bailout is a bad idea?
for GM, assembly labor is 10% of the cost of the car. A 20% cut in these UAW wages from $27 down to $22 an hour applies just to the upper tier workers and only lowers the labor cost of a car from 10% to 9%. That only allows GM to shave 1% off the TOTAL car price.
Aah, SSA...my bad. Of course, another unsustainable federal ideal.
All bailouts are technically bad ideas, but if everyone else is doing it, a level playing field is less bad than yet another dead domestic industry. What a great future globalization is going to produce - great for the top few tenths of a percent anyway.
Unregulated dog eat dog capitalism will not produce a progressive society. Greed always trumps all.
All bailouts are technically bad ideas, but if everyone else is doing it, a level playing field is less bad than yet another dead domestic industry.
What you're saying is this: bailouts are dumb, but if other countries are willing to bankrupt themselves by bailing out pet industries, we can't afford to be left behind.
Please forgive me for not finding this at all convincing.
Unregulated dog eat dog capitalism will not produce a progressive society. Greed always trumps all.
That might be a pretty good argument in favor of more effective bank regulation if that's what we were talking about here, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the debate over bailing out the domestic car makers. Are you saying that bailout opponents are greedy? Go ahead & say it - it won't change my mind.
Yes. The cars will sell but nowhere near expected levels. Ford might sell more. GM will sell some trucks at steep discounts. Malibu and CTS will sell because they are the best they have.
Since profits are not expected for years, it's a zero sum game until huge costs are removed. Depends on the speed of the cuts vs. expectations in bailout. Seeing as the recession will dictate level of sales next 6 months should resemble the last 2 months.
We're already bankrupt, what does it matter? The crooked Fed and it's banker cohorts, a cabal of economic terrorists, will destroy any financial security the US has been able to amass. Just wait.
Whether or not you find it convincing is of no concern to me. Aiding the pets and special interests of one group while denying another is no means to create progress.
Bailout opponents are mainly bitter anti-unionists who have been waiting for decades to sock it to their opposition. It's not about logic or fiscal responsibility, it's revenge.
Comments
ECO 101 All barriers, hurdles, and tariffs deter competition and therefore are one in the same.
Good economics is HAVING FAIR TRADE WITH THESE NATIONS WHO DUMP THIER CARS ON US SOIL -- HOW MANY AMERICAN CARS ARE THEY ALLOWING IN THEIR NATIONS? Good economics is taking measures to make sure that one's future is not dependent on how many foreign car companies have displaced american car companies, just because these foreign car companies (and other businesses) were able to take over the market by having TRADE BARRIERS AGAINST AMERICAN PRODUCTS IN THEIR HOME NATIONS.
http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=2&subcatid=7&threadid=17- 96580
"Richardson Texas will be the BOOM town year 2000"
In many ways, it's worse. Like the massive declines in the nation's steel, oil and automobile industries in decades past, the disintegration of the telecom business is leaving deep wounds in the U.S. work force. But labor historians say telecom stands out for the unprecedented speed of the boom-and-bust cycle. After telecom was deregulated in 1996, it quickly expanded by some 331,000 jobs before peaking in late 2000. Since the downturn started, though, companies have announced layoffs that have wiped out all those new jobs and more -- a total of well over 500,000 workers, according to a tally by The Wall Street Journal. By contrast, it took two decades for the ranks of the United Auto Workers to fall to 732,000 from 1.5 million, as the auto industry was forced to become much more efficient in the face of foreign competition.
http://www.happinessonline.org/InfectiousGreed/p26.htm
it was $7200. that was my first episode of sticker shock.
i think the automotive industry is a basic part of our identity as the USA.
maybe we should change the flag to a white t shirt.
it's cheaper to produce and not much can go wrong with it.
That is exactly what I have tried to get through to you. Your misconception that all these countries do not want US goods is malarkey. What they want is QUALITY GOODS, that America was once famous for. Not the crap the B3 tries to sell. GM cars in foreign countries built by foreign workers are selling very well. What does that tell you about our labor force and especially the UAW? They are doing substandard work and given substandard materials to cover for their past sins. Sins that both the management and the UAW have brought onto the B3 and especially GM.
The Big 3 cannot continue to pay $1000 per month to 700,000 retirees for Health Care. If the B3 sells 6,000,000 cars this year that amounts to $1400 per car. They are selling their cars at below cost. So someone gets left out in the cold. The UAW does not want to give up their gravy train so where do you suppose that money will come from?
Tax payers making way less than UAW workers should not be strapped with that burden.
Thankfully Obama is not opposed to saying one thing and doing another.
He spoke just a few hours after the Bush administration announced an emergency bailout of the U.S. auto industry, offering $17.4 billion in rescue loans in exchange for concessions from carmakers and their workers.
Obama said those steps are necessary and the companies must not "squander the chance" to change bad management practices. He said it's "absolutely necessary" to restructure the companies to save the industry, while also working toward creating "fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow."
While Obama declined to say specifically what changes he might make to the Bush administration's plan, he had a message for the Big Three auto companies: "The American people's patience is running out" and management must "seize on this opportunity" over the next few months to come up with a sustainable plan for survival.
He got that right. The average American is not interested in supporting a bunch of featherbedding Union people making more money reading comic books and eating Jelly donuts than they are working hard to just make ends meet. The UAW has become a pathetic Union. And MOST Americans feel the same as I do. YOU are in a very small minority with Rocky.
Simply translated, kuruma banare means “demotorization” — a trend that has been affecting the Japanese auto market since 1990. While many factors have contributed to the demotorization of Japan, the biggest reason for the decline is that the youth have fallen out of love with the automobile.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/japans-kuruma-banare-dramatically-decreasing-new-car- -sales.html
Too bad they have not fallen out of love with them here. It would sure clear up a lot of congestion on the roads and highways. By the time the UAW and the government get done with this bailout NO ONE will be able to afford a car. The taxes will see to that.
(I suspect that you meant to write "...therefore are one and the same". Before posting, use the preview feature to avoid embarrassment.)
I'm not sure that tariffs are the problem here. Tariffs might explain why a working-class consumer chooses Chinese-made sneakers over similar sneakers made in North America that cost $8 more, but they clearly aren't the reason why well-to-do Americans would rather buy a $55K Mercedes E350 than a $45K Cadillac CTS. Even at the family sedan level - Accord vs. Malibu, for example - purchasing decisions are generally based on perceived differences in quality & reliability as opposed to price.
Good economics is HAVING FAIR TRADE WITH THESE NATIONS WHO DUMP THIER[sic] CARS ON US SOIL -- HOW MANY AMERICAN CARS ARE THEY ALLOWING IN THEIR NATIONS?
How many American cars are built with the steering wheel on the right side of the car to meet the need of Japanese drivers?
You have many other factors here. The super star endorsements and a worker/child is being exploited. Unfortunately, if the public relations of these corporations were concern about image, if only we could see the whole picture. New Balance (made in USA) seems to compete with no super star endorsement and have to abide by labor standards Americans in general agree upon. I'm not for less competition, just leveling the field and unfortunately unions are still the best things ever invented for workers. Its not a question of the end of the UAW, but rather a question of the rebirth and how big. Left unchecked, things tend to come on bigger and stronger. Much like a force in physics, the pendulum swings with momentum both ways. Big business, big government, and big labor go hand in hand. Without one abuse is common in civilizations.
Deregulation of the banking system is enough evidence that there was nothing to keep capitalism in check. Bailouts and consolidations are what we have to consider. Bailouts will foster competition later on, while consolidations will concentrate power and is less attractive to the consumer in the long run. I understand your ideals and respect them. However, this is a far cry from that perfect Utopian world envisioned by the classical liberal. So one must pick their poison.
but they clearly aren't the reason why well-to-do Americans would rather buy a $55K Mercedes E350 than a $45K Cadillac CTS.
Perhaps your right. My take is a little different. There is plenty of room for the different makes in the market. Having knowledge that many opt to lease. Hence, being able to upgrade or lower their monthly payment, most choose to lease. Over 70% of the Infinity dealers (in Plano Texas) business has been leasing. One might argue that those same folks could afford the CTS payments, but their egos got the better of them and in any case figured their status would elevated by driving a Benz. Much like those suburban youngsters, who want the Bentley that their rapper hero's drive, but see the Chrysler 300 as the knock off look alike alternative.
irregardless is a great word for you, and for that matter the Jesuit trained writer bicker about.
I'm eagerly awaiting the Republicans' explanation for how this is all the UAW's fault.
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/commerce_and_its_discontents_/2008/12/worldwid- e_labour_conspiracy.php
Bailouts generally lead to more bailouts, not to greater competition. If you want to foster real competition within the auto industry, you'll favor bankruptcy reorganization. A post-bankruptcy GM, with its costs under control & its new management focused on its star brands, would be a ferocious competitor.
irregardless is a great word for you
LOL! Very good, dallasdude1! Drinks will be on me if you ever catch me using that word. I've always preferred "irrespective".
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/notkin/istories/israel3.html
>but the Big Three already often sell their cars for about $2,500 less than equivalent cars from Japanese companies
This says that for a comparable size car, the D3 cars would sell for roughly $3300 less. Now that is in line with their quality. People don't want to pay the extra $800 for quality that does not exist.
And reducing the UAW wage is not really to reduce cost of the vehicle, imo, it is to show UAW what their work is actually worth. Reality check. So far they have lived a life of entitlement, with almost no pride for their work. After that, they want the US consumers to feel proud in buying an american made UAW product. How do you expect the US consumers to feel pride in buying one, when there is none in making it?
I exist because of the greatness on Americans working together as a team. Too bad many from the other team have infiltrated our ranks. The ramifications of destroying American auto industry? 55% of America doesn't care. We have gone from team players to 'what's in it for me'.
I believe if you interviewed some of that 55% which is probably closer to 75% they would say the UAW has lost the vision of being a team player. They are only in it for their own personal greed. That the auto industry revolves around them not those that buy the cars they make. How would you assess the strikes this year by the UAW against GM? They found some lame excuse to shut down some of the plants that were making the only vehicles that GM could sell. I don't see that as a team player. They were being big bullies to get their way at American Axle. A company that could see there was no way to give into the UAW and still make a profit. Whether you accept the concept or not. The only reason the big 3 and its suppliers exist is to make a profit. The workers making a living wage is a side benefit not the goal of the corporation.
Without American manufacturing we would be a Japanese colony.
A ten year old boy is interviewed by ABC news and responds that maybe we should not have made a loan to the B3 because "America's already in debt". My grandfather could have said that when he was 10 years old.
Can someone describe to me the place America would become if auto quality caught that of Japan, and how that would CHANGE MY life? Would I be able to have better schools? Better weather? Better returns from my investments? Better health? more free time? better home appreciation? lower taxes? lower car costs? lower food costs? lower clothing costs? lower fuel costs? lower utilities? cheaper insurance? better roads?
NO to all of the above.
what is 13.4 billion? what is my tax increase to the fed if the loan is not repaid? $134 per each of 100M taxpayers, or less than 2 months of my water bill.
Well, I guess that I'm guilty of not being a "team player" - whatever that means. I've got this quaint, silly idea that companies exist to serve me, not the other way around. If a company makes things that I want to buy, charges prices that I'm willing to pay & brings these opportunities to my attention via effective advertising, then that company will get my business.
If a company fails to do any of the above, then it doesn't deserve my business. In that case, it should fix the problem & earn my patronage, not beg the government to hold me down while it picks my pockets for a so-called "loan".
It's that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, the marketplace is governed by 2 ironclad rules:
Rule 1 - the customer is always right
Rule 2 - there are absolutely no exceptions to Rule 1
Don't hold customers accountable for the slow-motion suicide of the American auto industry. Remember - the customer is always right.
Then you won't mind picking up my share of the cost of this fiasco & paying out an extra 2 months. I have other plans for my money.
Unless you can prove to my complete satisfaction that the government & the auto makers can do a better job of spending my money than I can, you have no business putting your hand in my pocket.
That is a concept that is totally foreign to a progressive Liberal. They believe, right, wrong or indifferent that the government should have the authority to take as much of your money as they see fit. Then they will decide how much you should get back if you vote the way they tell you to. Kind of like the UAW. I would imagine in a Big 3 factory lot you would have gotten your car keyed with a McCain bumper sticker.
But what do I know? I'm not a "team player".
That's wonderful, then you should really be on the case of the UAW. They've been adversarial, detrimental to the auto makers, thuggish with strikes, asked for the moon and never made a big scene about product quality, only about their precious benefits and how they can get more. They don't know how to do a job they are not categorized for, they have no flexibility and run like an Eastern European country. They are the farthest thing from teamwork possible, except for their own clan. Thank you for your support in building a strong Detroit 3 for the USA.
Did you support the recent bail out? Did they convince you that your share of this debt was worthwhile? Why or who decided that JP Morgan/Chase would consolidate some and others would get bail out money?
JP Morgan got Bear Sterns, and Wamu
Bank Of America got CountryWide
We are now seeing the credit card interest rates increasing, because of less competition. I personally don't carry balances, however, those who do will pay. Less competition means the consumer pays more. Its a no brainer that fewer auto companies would mean higher prices and therefore the UAW and the Big Three need to stay in business.
Yes while we were working. So does the imports provide health care for their working employees. Our Union being much wiser than the UAW could see that offering health insurance into perpetuity for retirees would bankrupt the Union. So way back in the early 1990s they told retirees you are on your own. They also raised the age of retirement from 45 to 57 years of age. It is time for the legacy costs of health care to be given back to the retirees. If it is going to keep GM from being profitable it needs to be cut. It is sad that the UAW tacked it onto the current employees wage package. That is not the fault of the average American that sees that wage package of $75 per hour.
That is not true. My sister was strapped with 31% years ago, after one late payment on her $10k balance. My rate has stayed at 8.75% for at least 10 years. I also do not carry a balance as paying any interest on CC debt is a losing proposition. Higher rates are needed to discourage frivolous borrowing.
You can't possibly be speaking of today. These folks broke bread in Black Lake. Michigan. They communicated in a civil manner. Both parties have worked out major differences and your just reading sensationalized media. The UAW did agree to employee buy outs and lower starting pay (a two tier wage scale) on more than one occasion.
You fail to see anything wrong with the Japanese national health care system. At the end of the day we are just looking at where the health care money for these retirees and employees comes from. This is the problem which we as a nation need to solve and see for what it is. As all the baby boomer's start to retire and get on with their later years, they need more medical services. Do we spread this cost across the entire nation as they do in Japan? Would this be more problematic? If you needed a bypass is it fine, by you, to have an OBGYN do it? Flexibility?
perpetuity: Would mean forever, hence the heirs would get it then. Unfortunately UAW members die. At 65, Medicare kicks in and then they are afforded a MediGap, which is affordable/available to the average retiree. Fact is that if you opt into one of the approved govt health care providers, you get it free.
So does the imports provide health care for their working employees.
Only those that are not in the mother land get private insurance. So as a whole Toyota/Honda they can factor their total health care cost with the generous subsidy from the mother land. While they do have Corolla's/Tacoma's coming off the UAW line in California, they have a Corolla's coming from Japan too. A clever PR gimmick to fool the masses.
That is not the fault of the average American that sees that wage package of $75 per hour.
You like many others like to factor in the legacy cost, the sticker shock effect, to outrage the general public. You fail to mention that cost will be borne by the taxpayers if the Big Three go under. You also fail to mention that if they wait in line at the county hospitals, that cost is five time or more than that of going to the doctors office. The facts are that the average Walmart employee costs to tax revenues is $2000 each per year, for either their too expensive plans for the masses of part timers.
Save Money
Live Better
Myth: a 20% UAW cut to the upper tier UAW earners would make D3 cars affordable.
Fact: Even though assembly labor to make a Greensburg Civic are 3% of the total car cost after using 890 robots, for GM, assembly labor is 10% of the cost of the car. A 20% cut in these wages from $27 down to $22 an hour applies just to the upper tier workers and only lowers the labor cost of a car from 10% to 9%. That only allows GM to shave 1% off the car price to maintain current (non)profit levels.
Myth: American cars are more expensive when you factor in quality and depreciation.
Fact: I test drove and was offered a starting price of $18700 plus tax for an '09 Malibu. Stability control, disc brakes all around, automatic trans, power seat, XM, onstar, quiet glass, plenty of power, 30 mpg hwy, power mirrors. That price included $1050 for the body side moldings so there was room to negotiate. Nobody has yet found a quality flaw on one of these.
I didn't get a Toyota quote to compare but window stickers on Camry were $23k and up last time I checked. I doubt that the depreciation difference matters much when your neighbors house becomes bank owned and yours loses $19k overnight.
What could help more than a 20% UAW wage cut? A 2% shift in American market share from 49% to 51% would have double the impact of all UAW concessions combined.
Might be the opposite here in Texas. The UAW doesn't have any monopoly on ignorant silly people. Fact is that there was a gentleman keying expensive gas guzzling auto's/SUV's in a very affluent neighborhood here in Texas. They have since caught him and coined him the "ECO TERRORIST". No telling how much time and effort went into this case. The moral to this story is don't jack with rich peoples toys. Case closed!
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080918_wz_humm- ervandal.8c97c7c4.html
Thats common for late/no payments. I'm talking current.
When John Dykstra got his September credit card bill from Advanta, a small-business card issuer, he was shocked: Dykstra says he has a good credit score and has never missed a payment, but his interest rate had jumped from 7.99% to 26%.
He's not alone. Card issuers from Bank of America to Capital One are using the economic crisis as a reason to raise rates. According to Consumer Action's 2008 survey of card companies, Bank of America, Citi, and Capital One have recently said that "market conditions" could cause them to increase APR's.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/news/economy/creditcards_kimes.fortune/index.htm-
Just google 2008 credit card interest rates going up if your still not convinced.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Only if supply matches demand. Don't forget the Chinese. Auto prices will fall for the foreseeable future. The UAW will not exist as a powerful force any longer.
Regards,
OW
I don't think anyone in their right mind want a health care system like Canada, Japan or the UK. You would be lucky in those countries to be even considered for any major replacements in less than a year. There is no way that every one that needs a kidney or a heart transplant can have one. Look at what is not covered in these government health plans for a real view of what you are asking for. Several states have universal health care. In Hawaii it is a LONG wait to get in for an examination for most any ailment.
We are headed for National debt that matches Japan's. It will not be a pretty thing for those that have to pay it back. Or the interest when the rates eventually go back to a reasonable level.
All the concessions made by the UAW are future except for the two tier hiring and the buyouts. Why didn't the existing employees get cut at all? Because they are greedy. They would rather sacrifice the new hires and retirees than carry some of the burden. Their companies are going BROKE and they act like it is their god given right to live on top of the heap. UAW workers are at the top end of the UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. Time to face reality. They are not worth that much money. Too many people right here in the USA would love to work for half of what the UAW worker gets. That is what the market will bear. These are not Chinese children that are looking for a better life. They are RIGHT here in the good ole USA. Check out the credentials of the new sec of Labor. She will be leaning toward getting all the illegals on board and in the system. You have always defended their right to be here. What will you say when they take the jobs for less than the UAW is willing to take?
I like it when man defies economic law. I'm amazed at that young doctor, who goes to third world countries to help. The dogma that man will act in their own interest in a greedy manner is true to some extent. Myself, I often ask what would a smart man do? Being blessed by the UAW, a great family, a great job, and so many more things, materialist/spiritual.
I sold my home about 5 years ago, paid off and no mortgage, and rented for 3 years. About a year ago I purchased, for much less than the original price. I waited for this buyers market.
There is a 65 inch in the media room. All the creature comforts.
I use the Chase Freedom card, pay it off each month. They give me about $500 a year to use it.
I got me the CTS with navigation and Bose/sport package for about $10,000 below sticker. The way women look at that car is all telling. However, my wife doesn't allow me to date.
I often pick up a needy/homeless person and take them with to the good food store, Central Market, for food. Yeah, they sometimes reek.
My wife (she is an angel) and I have more or less been taking care of a mentally ill person to help out. Face it some can function with medication, some can't. Its consumes money as well as time. Its the humanitarian thing to do and we don't seek the praise of mere men.
The me generation is passé and something better needs to come. All large organizations have good and evil. The UAW is no exception, and neither is corporate America and or big govt. They have natural checks and balances. Now what would a smart man do?
National health is NOT responsible for Japan's National debt. They undertook a massive infrastructure rebuilding during their credit crisis, much like our predicament now.
Is there any better national health system out there better than ours?
I see this going full circle. Globalization says that labor rates will equalize at some future date. Hence, equal buying power and trade deficits should be gone by then. If you don't see an enormous uprising in China, your not being a realist. They now have a middle class about the size of ours. However, they have one fifths of the worlds population. If the economic downturns become protracted they will have social hell. Unions/THE UAW will rise to offset big business and the oppressive govt.
Just as deregulation (Reagan ERA legacy) got us into this sub prime mess, over regulation will be as bad in the foreseeable future. You ain't seen nothing yet. No one even blinked an eye as Phil Gramm pushed the ENRON loophole in DEC of 2000. Coincidently Phil's wife was on the ENRON payroll. Certainly you didn't think that the GOP would be in power for ever? It looked that way for a long while. As a classical liberal, I'm more for business and freedom than either party as they are in the pockets of special interests. We might even be able to do the bail out with all the special interest money being spent in Washington (UAW included). However, they see this as a cost benefit issue and expect to bring in more than they spend.
Scary, almost like Palin. Do you think she has future political aspiration?
Soon as globalization does to us, we will be swimming across into Mexico to get jobs.
No, I did not support the financial bailout. I've made that crystal clear elsewhere in this forum.
JP Morgan got Bear Sterns, and Wamu Bank Of America got CountryWide
We are now seeing the credit card interest rates increasing, because of less competition.
I haven't paid any credit card interest since Carter was in the White House, so this doesn't matter to me.
Its a no brainer that fewer auto companies would mean higher prices and therefore the UAW and the Big Three need to stay in business.
Your premise doesn't support your conclusion. Yes, less competition leads to higher prices, but it simply doesn't follow from this that a taxpayer-funded bailout is the best way to promote competition. Bankruptcy will give GM & Ford their clearest shot at becoming nimble & responsive companies that can focus on what customers want. (It's probably too late to save Chrysler, anyway.)
Remember - the customer always comes first.
Didn't you work for the IRS? :P
There's some fat that should be cut...maybe once the globalists get their way of destroying any semblance of a western standard of living, incomes and revenue proceeds will be so low that the organization can be killed off.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many public sector workers are "libertarian" "free market" (globalization) supporters, when their own careers involve at least as much excessive perks as any union...
Dallasdude...
You can whine all you want about the Japanese, but the big 3 have had since 1970 to figure out how to make cars that Americans prefer to those the Japanese make.
The Japanese aren't going away. They are here, and building cars in America, using American labor. The flaws in your argument that the Japanese are causing all your problems by not playing fair have been repeatedly pointed out to you.
Recall that as far back as 1980, Americans started choosing to pay MORE for Japanese cars instead of choosing American made vehicles. As far as the Japanese not importing American vehicles, we've shown you logical reasons (even discounting Detroit's historical quality problems) that American cars don't sell in Japan. ... And God knows that Toyota tried to make it happen.
Toyota sold American made RHD Cavaliers - at Toyota dealerships - in Japan from 1993 to 2000. I've actually saw ONE on the streets to Tokyo....
http://www.members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/
Additionally, as also been pointed out to you with gas always selling for around $5 a gallon in Japan, there is not much interest in big cars. The Kei class has around 40 percent of the new car market in Japan right now.... with engines about the size of your riding lawn mower. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/11/kei-car-sales-up-japan.php Nobody wants a Pontiac Grand Prix or a G5 even if they were RHD.
As for the health insurance, we've shown you the flaw in that argument too. Worse health care, and the cost isn't any cheaper, it just reduces the incomes of everyone.
Now why don't you just come out and say it:
You believe that America owes you a fat living, and that other Americans should be forced to buy Big 3 cars, no matter what you make, and that we should pay for your health insurance and retirement plans.... even if we don't have those things ourselves.
I'm pretty well done with this discussion.... nothing is going to change your mind (sic) and we're starting to circle back to the same arguments again. You make them, we debunk them, and then you bring them back.
Even if Japan disappeared, and you got your free(sic) health care, those things aren't going to make people want to buy exclusively American cars. The Koreans, Chinese, and the Europeans will step in.
The UAW model is simply unsustainable. There once was no doubt a flourishing buggy-whip maker's union (The UBW?), but they're gone now. The rail workers once ruled the world.... how many of them are left.
You should go and join the Longshoremen while they're still powerful. They have about 10 - 15 years left before they join the UAW and the UBW. However, their gravy train just moved to Mexico.
http://www.portsamerica.com/pdf/PuertaMexicoGrandOpen.pdf
http://www.portsamerica.com/pdf/PuertaMexicoGrandOpen.pdf
So don't try to make us feel sorry for your sister.
I worked for the Social Security Administration from 1974 until 1980 or 81. That was my only stint in the public sector.
Went into that a liberal big-government Dem. Came out of it a libertarian.
There's some fat that should be cut...maybe once the globalists get their way of destroying any semblance of a western standard of living, incomes and revenue proceeds will be so low that the organization can be killed off.
Now, you've lost me. Are you saying that we should bail out the losers? Or are you saying that a bailout is a bad idea?
Will Ford sales improve more than GM because they don't need a ;loan?
Will anyone buy a GM because the UAW takes a wage cut in 2010?
All bailouts are technically bad ideas, but if everyone else is doing it, a level playing field is less bad than yet another dead domestic industry. What a great future globalization is going to produce - great for the top few tenths of a percent anyway.
Unregulated dog eat dog capitalism will not produce a progressive society. Greed always trumps all.
What you're saying is this: bailouts are dumb, but if other countries are willing to bankrupt themselves by bailing out pet industries, we can't afford to be left behind.
Please forgive me for not finding this at all convincing.
Unregulated dog eat dog capitalism will not produce a progressive society. Greed always trumps all.
That might be a pretty good argument in favor of more effective bank regulation if that's what we were talking about here, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the debate over bailing out the domestic car makers. Are you saying that bailout opponents are greedy? Go ahead & say it - it won't change my mind.
Since profits are not expected for years, it's a zero sum game until huge costs are removed. Depends on the speed of the cuts vs. expectations in bailout. Seeing as the recession will dictate level of sales next 6 months should resemble the last 2 months.
Regards,
OW
Whether or not you find it convincing is of no concern to me. Aiding the pets and special interests of one group while denying another is no means to create progress.
Bailout opponents are mainly bitter anti-unionists who have been waiting for decades to sock it to their opposition. It's not about logic or fiscal responsibility, it's revenge.