So don't try to make us feel sorry for your sister.
She ran up her credit card debt while off work having breast cancer surgery. We also tried to help her avoid bankruptcy. The bills keep adding up even when you are off work. She was raised too conservative to file for bankruptcy. She is paying it down pretty well now as the Casino she works in is doing quite well. No shortage of gamblers in Phoenix.
Just like there are a lot fewer oil companies these days - witness what we all just went through a few months ago.
Only a CHUMP carries a balance on his credit card! You talk about the UAW and the jobs bank and such, but don't mind paying 14%+ interest to some banker sitting around smoking his Cohibas and sipping Courvoisier while lounging in his big leather chair behind a huge mahogany desk. "Hee hee hee hee! Look at all the money I'm making off this dummy in Philly while I'm sitting on my duff!" It's not like the guy from Visa comes over to my house and says, "Mr. Lemko, I see you're paying me 14% interest on your Citibank Visa. What can I do for you, sir? May I mow your lawn? May I clean your bathroom? May I wash your car?
Did I say anything about exclusivity regarding the anti-bailout crowd? Although, from my experience, self-titled capitalist globalist free-marketeers who worship at the altar of von Mises tend to be highly anti-union, and very much in support of corporations having control of every aspect of existence, which is the world we are going to end up with.
"In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts"
I never said that, did I? Those loudly railing against bailouts, especially in the political realm, are not looking at economics, they are looking at ego. Don't talk to me about painting myself into a corner, please.
Whoa! That is absolutely insane! I probably would get better terms from Guido the Loanshark! That card would promptly find itself in the jaws of my shredder! :mad:
It's not about logic or fiscal responsibility, it's revenge.
In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts. Do you really want to paint yourself into that corner?
The auto bailout: It's $134 per taxpayer based on 100 million taxpayers. The economic crisis we are in: It has vaporized over $100,000 of my money and it would have been worse without the bailouts.
It could all come back. It's chances are better with the bailouts.
That's wonderful, then you should really be on the case of the UAW. They've been adversarial, detrimental to the auto makers, thuggish with strikes, asked for the moon and never made a big scene about product quality, only about their precious benefits and how they can get more. They don't know how to do a job they are not categorized for, they have no flexibility and run like an Eastern European country. They are the farthest thing from teamwork possible, except for their own clan. Thank you for your support in building a strong Detroit 3 for the USA.
All good stuff but undo all that and GM can only lower their costs 1%.
shift the market share to American cars by 2% and you have a much bigger improvement to our D3 and our country.
You mean the terms that are non -binding, the ones that won't be met when GM held down by the UAW, comes back with its tin cup again in March '09 worse off than they are now?
All good stuff but undo all that and GM can only lower their costs 1%.
That may be true for the *assembly costs* of UAW labor today. However, let's also figure out the costs of:
- fabrication of engines and other parts by the UAW before assembly - cost of UAW benefits to retirees
If labor costs are only a few percent of total cost of vehicle, then it would be interesting to see a breakdown of all the cost categories, which add up to more than 100% of the car costs since they are selling at a loss. I've seen quotes that health care alone approaches $2K per vehicle. Probably a lot of the costs are depreciation, retirees, raw materials, other expenses like transportation, electricity, etc.
a lot of what is going on is related to consumer/investor confidence. loans to the D2/3 allows more time for them to recover. kid #2's collge fund has taken a hit, so we are trying to pay some of kid #1's out of current cash. that leaves more time for the investments that are down to recover. will it work? time will tell.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
none of this has to do with fiscal responsibility, it is ego and revenge, nothing else.
I find it ironic that the Congress that owes the most to the UAW dropped the ball on bailing out the Domestics. The President who has been derided by the UAW and ALL Unions for nearly 8 years ends up giving them the money without any real strings attached. They have until far into the next Presidency to show some progress. Which I have no doubt will be ZERO progress. Then what happens. Will the Obama just keep writing checks to a defunct bunch of Corporations? How is bailing out GM and Chrysler fair to the other automakers that are producing cars in the USA? It still does nothing for the suppliers and dealers that are going or have gone bankrupt. I don't see any positives to the bailout personally. It gives the UAW workers a few more paychecks and then what? The rest of the country is hurting due to the housing meltdown. So they are not going to buy cars just because GM has the cash to keep building them. The D3 need to shut down for at least 3 months with NO pay to anyone except those that are sorting out what their next moves will be. Then only open the factories that are building vehicles that have gotten sold in those 3 months. I would bet less than half the factories EVER reopen.
do you really think the 'other automakers' can instantly ramp up the cover the loss of the D3 volume? i do agree with you that the housing collapse initiated the auto sales problems. why do you want to lay all the responsibility on the D3?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
All good stuff but undo all that and GM can only lower their costs 1%.
That may be true for the *assembly costs* of UAW labor today. However, let's also figure out the costs of:
- fabrication of engines and other parts by the UAW before assembly - cost of UAW benefits to retirees
Engines are 5% of a car. The heads come from suppliers in many cases. The block is the biggest UAW part and it is maybe 10% of the engine. Assembly of an engine made from hundreds of outsourced parts might be 20%. What can't be cut is factory overhead, cost of outsourced parts, materials, engineering, management, legacy costs. All this is the chasing of a fraction of 1% of the total car cost thru UAW wage cuts.
Parts? they are long outsourced. many come from Mitsubishi and Denso.
Retiree costs are not affected by future UAW wage cuts. The nation isn't whining about a pension for someone who was promised it and then worked 30-40 years to qualify for it are they? If so, Are we hatin' on teachers, police, and firemen too?
Just Increase sales and things get better. Turn 49% MS into 51% MS.
This country needs to move to the left. We've tried the right-wing, unfree-market, pseudo-capitalism, eutopia for the last 40 years and look at where it's gotten us gagrice!!!! The only way to rebuild this nation is from the bottom up!!! The wealthy good doers aren't going to invest their money in a society with no protectionism. Your continued hammering of union workers are the primary ones who had the disposable income to buy what they built. The stronger the manufacturing base in this country well the better off we are. Our country will not survive as a service based society. The rich look at the risk of investing on making money off of money as a lower risk than making money of a tangible product like cars ONLY because we've sold out any protectionist clauses i.e. content laws, trade barriers, etc. :mad:
I personally think our manufacturing base can be saved as I also do believe the window is still open to save our country and our standard of living but that window is closing with each passing day!!!
tlong, the problem is some people are making excuses and say the rich have higher living expenses thus such an adjustment for them is devistating!!! It's this kind of talk that makes me as an american just shake my head. It is a lot easier for someone who has everything paid for to sell a couple of things than the UAW worker who has a modest house with a mortgage, 2.5 kids, a car payment or two, who can lose everything by an adjustment to his wages and benefits. One thing I've learned is that normal slobs will stop at nothing to protect the rich, yet bash, slam, put-down, hate, normal working people who happen to have it marginally better than them. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
It's not about logic or fiscal responsibility, it's revenge.
I don't believe that for a second. In any case, I've already told you what you have to do if you want my money. Make something that I want to buy & offer it to me at a price that I'm willing to pay. That's the American way. Earn my business. Don't use the government to mug me. Wasn't that how the old Soviet Union worked? We all know how successful that was.
The auto bailout: It's $134 per taxpayer based on 100 million taxpayers.
If you're willing to spend $134 to support the domestic auto industry, then you won't mind spending $268 so that I can spend my $134 on something that matters to me. OK? Frankly, I'd rather use my money to support local merchants during these hard times. Do you have a problem with that?
Do you really want to help the domestic auto industry, Dave? Then go down to the dealer of your choice tomorrow morning & buy a new car or truck. According to your CarSpace profile, 2 of the vehicles in your family fleet are at least 10 years old. It's time to replace 1 of them. Buy a new car or truck & make it clear to your salesman that you won't pay a nickel less than MSRP for it. Don't listen to him if he offers you a discount. After all, you really do want to help.
So put your money where your mouth is. Just do me one favor, Dave. Leave me & my money alone. As you've probably figured out by now, I'm just not a team player.
You are absolutely amazing taking pop shots at us Midwesterners!!! We build stuff here in the Midwest, while the rest of the country grows food using subsidized governement money. If it wasn't for Uncle Sam, or the naturally found oil well places like Texas, would still be living in the dark ages. You can't find anyone willing to work as hard or as long as us Midwesterners. Also let's not even get into education aspect..... High School Football, is more important to those toothless, rednecks, than a decent teacher or text book. California, had once proud industrial cities like Long Beach, my birthplace. California, has became the toilet of the U.S. with bloated housing prices and is a beacon of weird america. I'd rather be a socialist society than have to endure another 8 years of unpatriotic pseudo-capitalism !!!! :mad:
Why shouldn't we protect american business and keep a solid middle class??? Are you naive enough to believe that buying more Asian crap is good for us economically and our national security??? gagrice, even your hero Duncan Hunter, gets it!!!
do you have any kids? i kind of doubt it. life gets much more complicated when it's not all about what you see in a mirror. i think someone said 'no man is an island'. even if they live on Long Island. :P
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
The problem is that most americans are about as bright as a burned out light bulb and have been dumbed down by cheap, shoddy, lead tainted, goods from China. My generation doesn't know what it's like making a fair wage, fair benefits, retirement, and having any sort of patriotism outside of attacking a country with no WMD's. :mad: I'm ashamed we've became so dumb as a society and will sell our souls to the lowest bidder!!! :sick:
I feel the same way too, rocky! I feel like I have more in common with the generation of my Grandpop and my girlfriend's Dad, both WWII veterans, rather than my own prodigal, spoiled, self-indulgent, irreverent, irresponsible, and unpatriotic one.
but they clearly aren't the reason why well-to-do Americans would rather buy a $55K Mercedes E350 than a $45K Cadillac CTS. Even at the family sedan level - Accord vs. Malibu, for example - purchasing decisions are generally based on perceived differences in quality & reliability as opposed to price.
I will agree with that.....I had a customer I've been dealing with who claims a Camcord, is so much better made than our Saturn Aura. He was shopping the Camcord vs. our Vue!!! :surprise: Yeah, go figure!!! The guy wanted something for nothing and trashed our Aura, and yes I had the guts to ask him where he was getting his data and the names Edmunds.com, Motor Trend, Road & Track, and Consumer Reports, were the filthy words he spewed out of his mouth. He said the 2009' Aura, isn't as reliable or won't last him as long as a camcord, even though the data states all of the cars made today are within a few points within each other. I lost the deal to Toyota, thanks to the above but might of kept him in our collection of dealers. This guy was being a difficult jerk and only wanted prices. I want your best price. Wouldn't test drive an Aura, to give it a chance and we went on a couple of VUE test drives. One a 09' Greenline, w/ premium pkg and the other a 09' 4 cylinder with the premium pkg. Then his excuse was they were too expensive. I will note that this guy wanted to pull his 3300 lbs boat and our VUE 4 Cylinder is only capable of 2500 pounds unless he moves up to the V6 which would get him 3500 lbs. :confuse: That wasn't good enough because he would lose 2 gallons in fuel economy. I've had some very flaky customers like him lately. The guy was nice for the most part and I built rapport with him because he use to work for Saturn, as a chemist and was on the team that invented the plastic dent resistant door panels but now works at a local university. It was a tough week last week in sales because it wouldn't stop snowing!!! Arrrrggghhh!!!
why do you want to lay all the responsibility on the D3?
First what would need to be ramped up. If the D3 quit making cars the Imports could meet the challenge of 10 million without getting into a sweat. My problem with the D3 is PROFIT. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. They have an unsustainable business model. And the worst part is they cut corners on content of their vehicles. And especially their trucks. The very vehicles that made them money. Well they lost me after buying 5 straight GM trucks in a row. And their latest are the worst for tinny noisy trucks. I had an 88, 90, 93 & 98/99 that were all exceptional trucks. Naturally when I bought a new truck in 2005 it was a GM. It was a tinny truck. Sheet metal as thin as aluminum foil. Poor fit and finish. It was the only one of the 5 built here in the USA by UAW workers. I say let GM die. They won't screw me on another truck.
PS It took me 43 years to forgive Toyota for the problems I had with my 1964 Land Cruiser. I am not thrilled with this Sequoia. I don't think GM will be around long enough for me to forgive and forget.
Your continued hammering of union workers are the primary ones who had the disposable income to buy what they built.
You keep mistaking the UAW for a Union. The UAW are a bunch of greedy bums that will destroy the US automakers rather than take a cut in pay or benefits. And don't go pointing your finger at me. I have taken cuts in pay when the economy was crappy. All the UAW did was stick it to the new hires while the old timers hung onto their featherbedding ways. You are in a very small minority in this country. It has nothing to do with Midwestern workforce. Toyota has got workers at their plant in Indiana that know how to assemble a vehicle that all fits nicely. Yet their fellow Indiana UAW workers cannot manage to put a truck together that the doors fit close enough to keep the wind from whistling through. Then you would blame it on the customer for not wanting to get stuck with a substandard vehicle. GM and the UAW have had a long time to get their act together and they have failed MISERABLY!!! Two models out of a hundred is not much to brag about.
Well, you're wrong. I have a grown daughter & a young grandson. I'd like to see him grow up as a free citizen of a country where he won't be strong-armed into supporting the bailout of an industry that apparently can't pay its own way.
There are a whole bunch of charities to which my wife & I have contributed generously from our modest middle-class income for many years. Why do you think that your pet charity - the domestic auto industry - is more deserving of our money than the causes that matter to us?
ONLY because we've sold out any protectionist clauses i.e. content laws, trade barriers, etc
That is so much baloney. We have higher tariffs protecting the Big 3 than any major country. Even with the 25% tariff on foreign built trucks GM cannot make a profit. There is also a 2.5% tariff on all imported cars to the USA. If the UAW workers are only 1% of the cost of a new car the B3 should be rolling in profit with that tariff levied against foreign autos. What country is blocking our cars with tariffs? You have any data or is it just hearsay from UAW distortion of the facts?
PS You like to throw in Chinese made goods. We don't have any Chinese cars yet. If GM cannot compete against the Japanese, How the heck will they compete against China and India?
Just Increase sales and things get better. Turn 49% MS into 51% MS.
Nice to say and hard to do. That will take excellent products that can be sold at a profit. Something that the D3 have not been able to do at all recently. What are the game-changers that will make it different?
Rocky, you and I agree that it's criminal what the high execs have been paid. Especially if the company is failing. Take Wagoner for example. In my previous company if you earned a low six figure salary you busted your butt and even if you were just decent you might be on the outs. You had to be outstanding to survive. Then I see compensation above $10M/year for completely failed performance. How do I get that job? :mad:
The problem is that most americans are about as bright as a burned out light bulb and have been dumbed down by cheap, shoddy, lead tainted, goods from China.
Well given that the UAW on average is less educated than many other fields, what are you saying about them? :confuse:
So we can now put the ignorance and media sensationalism away?
Q: Some senators have criticized the UAW workers’ contracts as too lucrative. How do you respond to that?
A: It’s just the excuses they’re using to be able to put a dagger into the heart of the labor movement. Labor is 10 percent of the cost to produce a vehicle. That includes all the pensions and health care for our retirees and it includes everything for the active person. . . . All the rest of it is either the research and development or the steel or the parts that all comes into it. Now we’re willing to sit down and talk about things, but this garbage about, you have to take lower wages — the wages and benefits have been negotiated for years. The only reason that the wages and benefits are the same or very close to being the same in the [foreign-brand] factories in Alabama, in Kentucky, in Tennessee, is because the UAW is here. If the UAW goes away, do they really think the wages and benefits are going to stay where they are? Absolutely not.
If you're willing to spend $134 to support the domestic auto industry, then you won't mind spending $268 so that I can spend my $134 on something that matters to me. OK?
Many patriots are against the current war in Iraq. However, those folks in Washington don't care and bill them regardless. Maybe those folks who have no children have heartburn about paying school taxes. Certainly many lobbies are in Washington looking for handouts (including organized labor/UAW). There is no end to the role govt plays in this society. They spend you pay. Its that simple. Regardless if you benefit or not.
Don't get me started on welfare for the rich. Stadiums/arenas for rich folks who have found a way to avoid the risk inherent to being an entrepreneur.
You believe that America owes you a fat living, and that other Americans should be forced to buy Big 3 cars, no matter what you make, and that we should pay for your health insurance and retirement plans.... even if we don't have those things ourselves.
Knowledge is superior to ignorance. First of all I work in aerospace and defense. Yeah, business is good. Then too I have outside interests. Multifaceted and have invested very well. My offspring went to private schools. Sorry I don't fit your typical stereotype of the UAW worker. Sorry the GOP has let America and you down, supply side, trickle down, and silly tax breaks have this nation in dire economic straits. Then again I live in a rather affluent area and assume your depression is due to your environment. All I hear from you is problems and no solutions.
While I don't like front wheel drive cars or anything Toyota/Honda has to offer, BMW might have something that I may be interested in. If that price is right. Maybe even a Porsche. Or perhaps a two seater Lexus with the orange leather interior. They want way too much for that one, more than $50,000. Unfortunately I have acquired a taste for fine cars and the Cadillac CTS is priced right with the right options. I was all for the Catera, which is small and delivers ride, performance, and creature comforts such as Recarro seats, Bose sound. But a stripped down econo box is stupid and rides more like the mechanical bull at Gilleys/Billy Bobs.
By the way Rocky mentioned Norway as better than any for national health care. However, everything American is the best, except for the autos, according to you.
In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts. Do you really want to paint yourself into that corner?
Thought you would never ask. Boeing and Airbus are the greatest examples. Airbus being overtly subsidized by European countries and even Lobbing McCain here in Washington, among others. Would we better off with only one big commercial airliner maker? Whatever became of MD and is Canada going to make any big airliners?
In fact, the China Airlines order needed big time, high-level juice in the form of arm-twisting from President Bush to reverse an all-Airbus order that would have eliminated Boeing from future CAL plans altogether. Originally the order was to be for 20 Airbus aircraft and none to Boeing. But in the end, each manufacturer sold ten aircraft.
In September, Congress approved a $25 billion subsidy to the major automakers under the guise of financing improved fuel efficiency technologies. The Energy Department soon is to be disbursing these monies.
Republican resistance, so far, to a bailout for the Detroit Big Three automakers means that an additional $25 billion may not be forthcoming in any lame duck Congressional session before the Christmas recess. But it would, most certainly, be part of any new stimulus package once the next Congress and the new president take office in January.
Or under the fear of one of the Big Three going under before the end of December, the Treasury Department may be "persuaded" by the current Democratic members of Congress into using a portion of existing $700 billion bailout money to bolster the automakers' sagging balance sheets.
But regardless of how this plays out, the Detroit automakers are no doubt expecting that they will get these tens of billions of dollars from the politicians in Washington, D.C. After all, they’ve paid for it. According to OpenSecrets.Org, which tracks lobbying expenditures by special interest groups, the Big Three auto companies have been spending a fortune on winning friends and influencing people in the halls of Congress and in the White House.
So everyone is buying Honda's/Toyota's and avoiding Big Three cars? Where oh where is that P R O F I T ?
The Detroit News reports that:
Honda Motor Co. stunned investors Wednesday when it revealed at its traditional year-end news conference that it expected to lose around $1.3 billion in the second half of the year, a period that coincided with the collapse of the U.S. auto market. Meanwhile, analysts said Toyota "is highly likely to report operating losses during the second half of the current fiscal year" and will remain under pressure in the next year.
Once again, I'm looking to the Republicans to explain how this is the UAW's fault.
The industry may face more trouble if the auto market fails to improve, Edmunds.com analyst Jesse Toprak warned. He expected 9.8 million vehicles to be sold in the coming year but added "no automaker can survive as a viable business in the United States if fewer than 11 million vehicles are sold annually industrywide."
If the UAW goes away, do they really think the wages and benefits are going to stay where they are? Absolutely not.
If the UAW goes away or diminishes to a smaller union than it is today, the threat of Unions still exists. The UAW is not the only Union that could represent Toyota workers if they become downtrodden. The Teamsters would be glad to represent them. The Teamsters are probably the most diverse Union in the USA. We have bakers to telephone workers. Airline workers to my local Costco. I only shop at the Costco warehouses that are Union. Only the ones that used to be Price Club are Union. What distinguishes Teamsters from other Unions is acting like they are partners in the industries they represent. That means the Union is concerned about the profits of the company. Running a company into bankruptcy does not help the Union members. The UAW needs to get a grip on reality. They are hanging by a thread provided not by Congress. But by a President that the Unions have rejected.
Republican resistance, so far, to a bailout for the Detroit Big Three automakers means that an additional $25 billion may not be forthcoming in any lame duck Congressional session before the Christmas recess. But it would, most certainly, be part of any new stimulus package once the next Congress and the new president take office in January.
More baloney from the left. Bush and some of the GOP Senators wanted to use the $25 billion already allocated for the automakers. It was the eco terrorist element in the Democratically controlled Congress that blocked that money from being spent. That $25 billion can only be used on new alternative energy vehicles. Rebuilding of factories that are at least 20 years old.
From your article: Having invested nearly a $250 million in lobbying and campaign contributions over the last 10 years, they are likely to get, now, a hefty return on their political investment -- $50 billion. That is a dividend that even the most demanding speculator could relish.
They would have been ahead putting that money into quality content in their sub standard vehicles. How much has the UAW donated to the Democrats over the last 10 years? Why should Republican Congress people want to bail the UAW out? They should be supporting their Constituents. This bailout is not about protecting an Industry. It is about pay backs to the UAW pure and simple. Even the Democrats from non auto industry states are reluctant to waste that money.
Once again, I'm looking to the Republicans to explain how this is the UAW's fault.
Why should the Republicans explain what is obvious to the most casual observer. The UAW over the last 40 years has slowly destroyed the goose that laid their golden egg. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. While companies like Toyota and Honda have made record profits. It is NOT the consumers fault that GM builds vehicles that do not appeal to the buyers. As more and more money has been spent on keeping promises that should have NEVER been agreed to in UAW contracts, the imports have been gaining market share. Then when it is too late to reverse the trend, the UAW decides maybe we will screw the new employees to protect the employees that have been the problem at the Big 3. You know the employees I am speaking of. The ones that have fought against modernization of factories. The ones that would rather have a factory move to Mexico or Brazil than to displace a few of their featherbedding long time members. The UAW does not deserve to survive. They have killed the domestic auto industry as much as anyone. GM is a failed company. Brought down by unsustainable contracts with Dealers and labor.
Comments
So if I tell you that I'm not anti-union even though I'm against all bailouts, then I must be lying?
It's not about logic or fiscal responsibility, it's revenge.
In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts. Do you really want to paint yourself into that corner?
She ran up her credit card debt while off work having breast cancer surgery. We also tried to help her avoid bankruptcy. The bills keep adding up even when you are off work. She was raised too conservative to file for bankruptcy. She is paying it down pretty well now as the Casino she works in is doing quite well. No shortage of gamblers in Phoenix.
Only a CHUMP carries a balance on his credit card! You talk about the UAW and the jobs bank and such, but don't mind paying 14%+ interest to some banker sitting around smoking his Cohibas and sipping Courvoisier while lounging in his big leather chair behind a huge mahogany desk. "Hee hee hee hee! Look at all the money I'm making off this dummy in Philly while I'm sitting on my duff!" It's not like the guy from Visa comes over to my house and says, "Mr. Lemko, I see you're paying me 14% interest on your Citibank Visa. What can I do for you, sir? May I mow your lawn? May I clean your bathroom? May I wash your car?
"In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts"
I never said that, did I? Those loudly railing against bailouts, especially in the political realm, are not looking at economics, they are looking at ego. Don't talk to me about painting myself into a corner, please.
In other words, there are no sound economic arguments against bailouts. Do you really want to paint yourself into that corner?
The auto bailout: It's $134 per taxpayer based on 100 million taxpayers. The economic crisis we are in: It has vaporized over $100,000 of my money and it would have been worse without the bailouts.
It could all come back. It's chances are better with the bailouts.
Well, I have yet to hear a pro-bailout argument that makes any economic sense.
All good stuff but undo all that and GM can only lower their costs 1%.
shift the market share to American cars by 2% and you have a much bigger improvement to our D3 and our country.
You mean the terms that are non -binding, the ones that won't be met when GM held down by the UAW, comes back with its tin cup again in March '09 worse off than they are now?
(and yes, a few off-topic posts were pruned over the weekend).
That may be true for the *assembly costs* of UAW labor today.
However, let's also figure out the costs of:
- fabrication of engines and other parts by the UAW before assembly
- cost of UAW benefits to retirees
If labor costs are only a few percent of total cost of vehicle, then it would be interesting to see a breakdown of all the cost categories, which add up to more than 100% of the car costs since they are selling at a loss. I've seen quotes that health care alone approaches $2K per vehicle. Probably a lot of the costs are depreciation, retirees, raw materials, other expenses like transportation, electricity, etc.
loans to the D2/3 allows more time for them to recover.
kid #2's collge fund has taken a hit, so we are trying to pay some of kid #1's out of current cash.
that leaves more time for the investments that are down to recover.
will it work? time will tell.
I find it ironic that the Congress that owes the most to the UAW dropped the ball on bailing out the Domestics. The President who has been derided by the UAW and ALL Unions for nearly 8 years ends up giving them the money without any real strings attached. They have until far into the next Presidency to show some progress. Which I have no doubt will be ZERO progress. Then what happens. Will the Obama just keep writing checks to a defunct bunch of Corporations? How is bailing out GM and Chrysler fair to the other automakers that are producing cars in the USA? It still does nothing for the suppliers and dealers that are going or have gone bankrupt. I don't see any positives to the bailout personally. It gives the UAW workers a few more paychecks and then what? The rest of the country is hurting due to the housing meltdown. So they are not going to buy cars just because GM has the cash to keep building them. The D3 need to shut down for at least 3 months with NO pay to anyone except those that are sorting out what their next moves will be. Then only open the factories that are building vehicles that have gotten sold in those 3 months. I would bet less than half the factories EVER reopen.
i do agree with you that the housing collapse initiated the auto sales problems.
why do you want to lay all the responsibility on the D3?
That may be true for the *assembly costs* of UAW labor today.
However, let's also figure out the costs of:
- fabrication of engines and other parts by the UAW before assembly
- cost of UAW benefits to retirees
Engines are 5% of a car. The heads come from suppliers in many cases. The block is the biggest UAW part and it is maybe 10% of the engine. Assembly of an engine made from hundreds of outsourced parts might be 20%. What can't be cut is factory overhead, cost of outsourced parts, materials, engineering, management, legacy costs. All this is the chasing of a fraction of 1% of the total car cost thru UAW wage cuts.
Parts? they are long outsourced. many come from Mitsubishi and Denso.
Retiree costs are not affected by future UAW wage cuts. The nation isn't whining about a pension for someone who was promised it and then worked 30-40 years to qualify for it are they? If so, Are we hatin' on teachers, police, and firemen too?
Just Increase sales and things get better. Turn 49% MS into 51% MS.
One of the best articles ever posted here on edmunds stating the facts!!!
-Rocky
Your continued hammering of union workers are the primary ones who had the disposable income to buy what they built. The stronger the manufacturing base in this country well the better off we are. Our country will not survive as a service based society. The rich look at the risk of investing on making money off of money as a lower risk than making money of a tangible product like cars ONLY because we've sold out any protectionist clauses i.e. content laws, trade barriers, etc. :mad:
I personally think our manufacturing base can be saved as I also do believe the window is still open to save our country and our standard of living but that window is closing with each passing day!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
I don't believe that for a second. In any case, I've already told you what you have to do if you want my money. Make something that I want to buy & offer it to me at a price that I'm willing to pay. That's the American way. Earn my business. Don't use the government to mug me. Wasn't that how the old Soviet Union worked? We all know how successful that was.
The auto bailout: It's $134 per taxpayer based on 100 million taxpayers.
If you're willing to spend $134 to support the domestic auto industry, then you won't mind spending $268 so that I can spend my $134 on something that matters to me. OK? Frankly, I'd rather use my money to support local merchants during these hard times. Do you have a problem with that?
Do you really want to help the domestic auto industry, Dave? Then go down to the dealer of your choice tomorrow morning & buy a new car or truck. According to your CarSpace profile, 2 of the vehicles in your family fleet are at least 10 years old. It's time to replace 1 of them. Buy a new car or truck & make it clear to your salesman that you won't pay a nickel less than MSRP for it. Don't listen to him if he offers you a discount. After all, you really do want to help.
So put your money where your mouth is. Just do me one favor, Dave. Leave me & my money alone. As you've probably figured out by now, I'm just not a team player.
-Rocky
-Rocky
It plays a big role in it. Go online and price a Chevy, in Japan once!!!! :surprise:
-Rocky
-Rocky
i think someone said 'no man is an island'.
even if they live on Long Island. :P
Is the American automobile industry worth saving?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/is-the-american-automobile-industry-worth-savin- g/
Is the American automobile industry worth saving? Pt. 2
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/is-the-american-automobile-industry-worth-savin- g-2/
-Rocky
-Rocky
I will agree with that.....I had a customer I've been dealing with who claims a Camcord, is so much better made than our Saturn Aura. He was shopping the Camcord vs. our Vue!!! :surprise: Yeah, go figure!!! The guy wanted something for nothing and trashed our Aura, and yes I had the guts to ask him where he was getting his data and the names Edmunds.com, Motor Trend, Road & Track, and Consumer Reports, were the filthy words he spewed out of his mouth. He said the 2009' Aura, isn't as reliable or won't last him as long as a camcord, even though the data states all of the cars made today are within a few points within each other. I lost the deal to Toyota, thanks to the above but might of kept him in our collection of dealers. This guy was being a difficult jerk and only wanted prices. I want your best price. Wouldn't test drive an Aura, to give it a chance and we went on a couple of VUE test drives. One a 09' Greenline, w/ premium pkg and the other a 09' 4 cylinder with the premium pkg. Then his excuse was they were too expensive. I will note that this guy wanted to pull his 3300 lbs boat and our VUE 4 Cylinder is only capable of 2500 pounds unless he moves up to the V6 which would get him 3500 lbs. :confuse: That wasn't good enough because he would lose 2 gallons in fuel economy. I've had some very flaky customers like him lately. The guy was nice for the most part and I built rapport with him because he use to work for Saturn, as a chemist and was on the team that invented the plastic dent resistant door panels but now works at a local university. It was a tough week last week in sales because it wouldn't stop snowing!!! Arrrrggghhh!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
First what would need to be ramped up. If the D3 quit making cars the Imports could meet the challenge of 10 million without getting into a sweat. My problem with the D3 is PROFIT. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. They have an unsustainable business model. And the worst part is they cut corners on content of their vehicles. And especially their trucks. The very vehicles that made them money. Well they lost me after buying 5 straight GM trucks in a row. And their latest are the worst for tinny noisy trucks. I had an 88, 90, 93 & 98/99 that were all exceptional trucks. Naturally when I bought a new truck in 2005 it was a GM. It was a tinny truck. Sheet metal as thin as aluminum foil. Poor fit and finish. It was the only one of the 5 built here in the USA by UAW workers. I say let GM die. They won't screw me on another truck.
PS
It took me 43 years to forgive Toyota for the problems I had with my 1964 Land Cruiser. I am not thrilled with this Sequoia. I don't think GM will be around long enough for me to forgive and forget.
-Rocky
You keep mistaking the UAW for a Union. The UAW are a bunch of greedy bums that will destroy the US automakers rather than take a cut in pay or benefits. And don't go pointing your finger at me. I have taken cuts in pay when the economy was crappy. All the UAW did was stick it to the new hires while the old timers hung onto their featherbedding ways. You are in a very small minority in this country. It has nothing to do with Midwestern workforce. Toyota has got workers at their plant in Indiana that know how to assemble a vehicle that all fits nicely. Yet their fellow Indiana UAW workers cannot manage to put a truck together that the doors fit close enough to keep the wind from whistling through. Then you would blame it on the customer for not wanting to get stuck with a substandard vehicle. GM and the UAW have had a long time to get their act together and they have failed MISERABLY!!! Two models out of a hundred is not much to brag about.
Well, you're wrong. I have a grown daughter & a young grandson. I'd like to see him grow up as a free citizen of a country where he won't be strong-armed into supporting the bailout of an industry that apparently can't pay its own way.
There are a whole bunch of charities to which my wife & I have contributed generously from our modest middle-class income for many years. Why do you think that your pet charity - the domestic auto industry - is more deserving of our money than the causes that matter to us?
That is so much baloney. We have higher tariffs protecting the Big 3 than any major country. Even with the 25% tariff on foreign built trucks GM cannot make a profit. There is also a 2.5% tariff on all imported cars to the USA. If the UAW workers are only 1% of the cost of a new car the B3 should be rolling in profit with that tariff levied against foreign autos. What country is blocking our cars with tariffs? You have any data or is it just hearsay from UAW distortion of the facts?
PS
You like to throw in Chinese made goods. We don't have any Chinese cars yet. If GM cannot compete against the Japanese, How the heck will they compete against China and India?
Nice to say and hard to do. That will take excellent products that can be sold at a profit. Something that the D3 have not been able to do at all recently. What are the game-changers that will make it different?
Well given that the UAW on average is less educated than many other fields, what are you saying about them? :confuse:
Q: Some senators have criticized the UAW workers’ contracts as too lucrative. How do you respond to that?
A: It’s just the excuses they’re using to be able to put a dagger into the heart of the labor movement. Labor is 10 percent of the cost to produce a vehicle. That includes all the pensions and health care for our retirees and it includes everything for the active person. . . . All the rest of it is either the research and development or the steel or the parts that all comes into it. Now we’re willing to sit down and talk about things, but this garbage about, you have to take lower wages — the wages and benefits have been negotiated for years. The only reason that the wages and benefits are the same or very close to being the same in the [foreign-brand] factories in Alabama, in Kentucky, in Tennessee, is because the UAW is here. If the UAW goes away, do they really think the wages and benefits are going to stay where they are? Absolutely not.
http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/529299.html
Many patriots are against the current war in Iraq. However, those folks in Washington don't care and bill them regardless. Maybe those folks who have no children have heartburn about paying school taxes. Certainly many lobbies are in Washington looking for handouts (including organized labor/UAW). There is no end to the role govt plays in this society. They spend you pay. Its that simple. Regardless if you benefit or not.
Don't get me started on welfare for the rich. Stadiums/arenas for rich folks who have found a way to avoid the risk inherent to being an entrepreneur.
Knowledge is superior to ignorance. First of all I work in aerospace and defense. Yeah, business is good. Then too I have outside interests. Multifaceted and have invested very well. My offspring went to private schools. Sorry I don't fit your typical stereotype of the UAW worker. Sorry the GOP has let America and you down, supply side, trickle down, and silly tax breaks have this nation in dire economic straits. Then again I live in a rather affluent area and assume your depression is due to your environment. All I hear from you is problems and no solutions.
While I don't like front wheel drive cars or anything Toyota/Honda has to offer, BMW might have something that I may be interested in. If that price is right. Maybe even a Porsche. Or perhaps a two seater Lexus with the orange leather interior. They want way too much for that one, more than $50,000. Unfortunately I have acquired a taste for fine cars and the Cadillac CTS is priced right with the right options. I was all for the Catera, which is small and delivers ride, performance, and creature comforts such as Recarro seats, Bose sound. But a stripped down econo box is stupid and rides more like the mechanical bull at Gilleys/Billy Bobs.
By the way Rocky mentioned Norway as better than any for national health care. However, everything American is the best, except for the autos, according to you.
Wonder why many components are sourced offshore?
Wonder why the jobs are disappearing or moving away from the epicenter of the automotive industry?
Wonder why any person would get hard-assed when they had a tin cup in their hands looking for a handout?
It's all in the logo folks.
Problems always start at the top. This time the honchos got a taste of humble pie.
Thought you would never ask. Boeing and Airbus are the greatest examples. Airbus being overtly subsidized by European countries and even Lobbing McCain here in Washington, among others. Would we better off with only one big commercial airliner maker? Whatever became of MD and is Canada going to make any big airliners?
In fact, the China Airlines order needed big time, high-level juice in the form of arm-twisting from President Bush to reverse an all-Airbus order that would have eliminated Boeing from future CAL plans altogether.
Originally the order was to be for 20 Airbus aircraft and none to Boeing. But in the end, each manufacturer sold ten aircraft.
http://www.aircargonews.com/archives/BoeingGetsDownToEarth.html
Republican resistance, so far, to a bailout for the Detroit Big Three automakers means that an additional $25 billion may not be forthcoming in any lame duck Congressional session before the Christmas recess. But it would, most certainly, be part of any new stimulus package once the next Congress and the new president take office in January.
Or under the fear of one of the Big Three going under before the end of December, the Treasury Department may be "persuaded" by the current Democratic members of Congress into using a portion of existing $700 billion bailout money to bolster the automakers' sagging balance sheets.
But regardless of how this plays out, the Detroit automakers are no doubt expecting that they will get these tens of billions of dollars from the politicians in Washington, D.C. After all, they’ve paid for it. According to OpenSecrets.Org, which tracks lobbying expenditures by special interest groups, the Big Three auto companies have been spending a fortune on winning friends and influencing people in the halls of Congress and in the White House.
http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/760-millions-for-billions-bailout-rewa- rds-big-threes-lobbying
The Detroit News reports that:
Honda Motor Co. stunned investors Wednesday when it revealed at its traditional year-end news conference that it expected to lose around $1.3 billion in the second half of the year, a period that coincided with the collapse of the U.S. auto market.
Meanwhile, analysts said Toyota "is highly likely to report operating losses during the second half of the current fiscal year" and will remain under pressure in the next year.
Once again, I'm looking to the Republicans to explain how this is the UAW's fault.
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/unions_and_organizing_/2008/12/worldwide_labou- - r_conspiracy_take_2.php
The industry may face more trouble if the auto market fails to improve, Edmunds.com analyst Jesse Toprak warned. He expected 9.8 million vehicles to be sold in the coming year but added "no automaker can survive as a viable business in the United States if fewer than 11 million vehicles are sold annually industrywide."
Only the bailed out survive.
Regards,
OW
If the UAW goes away or diminishes to a smaller union than it is today, the threat of Unions still exists. The UAW is not the only Union that could represent Toyota workers if they become downtrodden. The Teamsters would be glad to represent them. The Teamsters are probably the most diverse Union in the USA. We have bakers to telephone workers. Airline workers to my local Costco. I only shop at the Costco warehouses that are Union. Only the ones that used to be Price Club are Union. What distinguishes Teamsters from other Unions is acting like they are partners in the industries they represent. That means the Union is concerned about the profits of the company. Running a company into bankruptcy does not help the Union members. The UAW needs to get a grip on reality. They are hanging by a thread provided not by Congress. But by a President that the Unions have rejected.
More baloney from the left. Bush and some of the GOP Senators wanted to use the $25 billion already allocated for the automakers. It was the eco terrorist element in the Democratically controlled Congress that blocked that money from being spent. That $25 billion can only be used on new alternative energy vehicles. Rebuilding of factories that are at least 20 years old.
From your article:
Having invested nearly a $250 million in lobbying and campaign contributions over the last 10 years, they are likely to get, now, a hefty return on their political investment -- $50 billion. That is a dividend that even the most demanding speculator could relish.
They would have been ahead putting that money into quality content in their sub standard vehicles. How much has the UAW donated to the Democrats over the last 10 years? Why should Republican Congress people want to bail the UAW out? They should be supporting their Constituents. This bailout is not about protecting an Industry. It is about pay backs to the UAW pure and simple. Even the Democrats from non auto industry states are reluctant to waste that money.
Why should the Republicans explain what is obvious to the most casual observer. The UAW over the last 40 years has slowly destroyed the goose that laid their golden egg. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. While companies like Toyota and Honda have made record profits. It is NOT the consumers fault that GM builds vehicles that do not appeal to the buyers. As more and more money has been spent on keeping promises that should have NEVER been agreed to in UAW contracts, the imports have been gaining market share. Then when it is too late to reverse the trend, the UAW decides maybe we will screw the new employees to protect the employees that have been the problem at the Big 3. You know the employees I am speaking of. The ones that have fought against modernization of factories. The ones that would rather have a factory move to Mexico or Brazil than to displace a few of their featherbedding long time members. The UAW does not deserve to survive. They have killed the domestic auto industry as much as anyone. GM is a failed company. Brought down by unsustainable contracts with Dealers and labor.