There used to be a loophole that let public employees opt out of Social Security. I think most State of Alaska employees still aren't in the Social Security system. link.
I think it was only those in public service type jobs. I don't know of any that do not pay in now. I cannot imagine any private sector companies not having to pay. Maybe he is referring to people working contract that failed to pay self employment taxes. You work for cash and do not file you would not get SS.
After all, pensions are heavily invested in the stock market.
Since 1990 pension funds are highly regulated. If the fund falls under a certain percentage the company has to make up the difference or get fined. Most pension funds that are left are pretty safe. It is 401k that gives each individual control of his pension. You can put it in very safe investments or very risky. It is the risky ones that are taking a beating in this market.
The Key words being "pretty safe". How about the 50 Billion scamed by Bernie Madoff? Some Pensions were hit hard by this scum bag. Regulations are just more steps to be taken to find a loop hole.
When one pays into a Pension, they don't have to pay SS
That is not true at all. Someone gave you some bum information. I paid into SS and a pension for 46 years before I retired. I paid into a 401k in addition to my pension for 8 years. There is no legal way to get out of paying into Social Security. Or I would have done it. Biggest rip-off in the country.
Not sure where you came up with that info. The Fiduciaries of a pension plan can be held accountable for shady investments. I do not believe the law would allow any investment in an off shore hedge fund as Madoff was supposedly running. He took advantage of greedy people with his higher than realistic dividends. Madoff did get some Israeli charities with his scam. I do not know of any USA pensions that invested in his scheme.
They are paying employees full salary and shifting them to other work at the factory, from maintenance and cleaning to yard work.
I have gone round and round with Rocky on this subject. My contention is you are on the payroll and the boss asks you to sweep the floor. There should not be work rules that keep you from doing what he asks. Just because you are a lug nut assembler does not mean you should not do what ever needs to be done within your capability. Strict rules have hogtied the B3 for way too long. Time to file for BK and get out of those contracts. Hire people that want to work and are willing to do what it takes to make GM some money.
I would bet those Toyota workers that are out mowing the grass instead of standing in the unemployment line are happy they work for a well run company.
I have gone round and round with Rocky on this subject. My contention is you are on the payroll and the boss asks you to sweep the floor. There should not be work rules that keep you from doing what he asks. Just because you are a lug nut assembler does not mean you should not do what ever needs to be done within your capability. Strict rules have hogtied the B3 for way too long. Time to file for BK and get out of those contracts. Hire people that want to work and are willing to do what it takes to make GM some money.
This is one of the most offensive things about some unions. Instead of appreciating having a job and being paid to work, they are like spoiled children. Clearly NOT concerned about the best interests of the company, who feeds them.
Now that the UAW has almost strangled GM to death they want the non-union taxpayers to bail them out so that their gilded lifestyle does not get hurt. They should have been more concerned about working with their employer to make the company successful.
There used to be a loophole that let public employees opt out of Social Security.
As a former Social Security Administration employee, I can explain this.
When Social Security was enacted in the 1930s, state & local civil service employees weren't covered at all - partly because most of them had pensions but mainly because the legal experts of the day thought that it would be unconstitutional for the Federal government to force state governments to pay FICA tax.
Then, in the 1950s, someone came up with a workaround: amend the Social Security Act to allow states to sign voluntary "coverage agreements" with the Feds to cover specific groups of employees. A state might, for example, designate all members of the teachers' pension plan in that state as a "coverage group" & have them vote for or against SS coverage. If a majority voted for it, the state would then sign an agreement with the Feds. Employees already in the retirement system prior to the effective date could elect or decline SS coverage, but for new employees, SS would be mandatory.
Most states in my part of the country (the Northeast) signed coverage agreements, but there were still some holdouts when I left the agency in the early 80s. Even in my state (NY), which was one of the first to sign coverage agreements, temp employees weren't covered because they didn't belong to a state retirement plan. Other states (NJ, for example), signed separate agreements to cover temps.
I don't think that a state can revoke a coverage agreement but I'm not sure of this.
"The UAW leadership has given one cutback after another to the auto bosses since president Ron Gettelfinger took office in 2002.
In 2002, 2005 and 2007 the UAW gave up health benefits and agreed to sweeping wage cuts. These concessions include two-tier pay levels so that newly hired workers are making under $14 per hour.
Now as profits and stock values plummet for GM, Chrysler and Ford, the ruling class has initiated a full-throttled campaign to blame "rich auto workers" for the crisis facing the companies. Politicians and the corporate media have demanded the auto workers’ union surrender every advance won through decades of organizing, picketing and strikes, including during the heroic era of the sit-down strikes in the mid-1930s."
You people don't read! I said they DON'T HAVE TO pay into SS. No one gave me this information. I was a Purchasing Agent for a Large Municipality in Florida. I paid ONLY into the Pension. I left after five years, received a lump sum from Pension. I do not now receive SS as I did not pay into it. I will however be able to receive SS after a age of 62. I do wish that I had chosen to pay into SS also. Since that I am 100% Disabled Veteran and unable to get SSD.
Yeah, I work in county government in New Jersey and have paid into Social Security my whole working life. In theory once I retire my pension plus Social Security should come pretty close to my last salary. I've seen it do that and miss that depending on the person's contributions.
I'll know what happens with me in four years and a month if I go at 62.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
there are plenty of areas of detroit that are just trashed. i saw a group of houses that had 1 exterior wall painted a dull orange. all had had fires. not sure if it was related.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
He makes a point in spite of his being all wet. We should not rebuild New Orleans any more than we should save GM from their inability to build cars people want and make a profit doing so. Rebuilding homes in a floodplain is very much like giving money to the Big 3. A huge waste of resources.
This is the link I stumbled on looking for the current Jobs Bank number. 12,000 was the number in '05; I haven't looked to see what the number was a year ago or the year before that.
The bottom line, it has cost the B3 $4.2 billion in the last 3 years for the jobs bank. Not sure if that included jelly donuts and comic books for those bozos to read in the rubber rooms. The real sad part is they were given the opportunity to get additional education in lieu of sitting in a room collecting their wages. The WSJ article I read claimed only a small percentage took advantage of that offer. This was an article at least 3 years ago.
Here is a chart on how much money has gone down the jobs bank rat hole.
from steve's article: WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
More lies from Gettlefinger. He claimed that UAW workers topped at $28 while Toyota paid $32. Well unless this guy was lying he was sitting on his duff making $31+ per hour.
Then the bigger question is how many guys do they have in these plants that are there just to change a light bulb when it burns out? Just sitting the rest of the day. All because of restrictive job classifications.
I do not know of any USA pensions that invested in his scheme.
The sub prime mess is a contagion to the whole banking system. Financial stocks are key components to most pension plans, personal stock portfolios, etc. Now because too many sketchy loans were written, especially without a fair amount of owner equity, the vast majority of middle-income earners have to suffer needlessly. As the stock market goes, so do the pension plans.
This problem could have been largely avoided if more mortgages were held in house and banks and other financial institutions managed a balanced portfolio of loans. However as mortgages became largely trade-able commodities there became a greater incentive to pass off the "hot potatoes" as quickly as possible so you don't get burned. Little did we know that there were so many "hot potatoes" accumulating at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Oh, by the way, Fannie and Freddie are now traded on the NYSE so they better play the game too.
I would bet those Toyota workers that are out mowing the grass instead of standing in the unemployment line are happy they work for a well run company
Very insightful - They are! But I guess the funniest (perhaps not to the the employees though) "alternative use" of union labor was by Japan Railways in the early 90s, when they went through a long process of downsizing. They had their employees growing mushrooms in abandoned tunnels (since they had shut down some railway lines too).
I first want to say thanks for the support many of you have given me.....My training in Troy, MI was a absolute blast and came back to Grand Rapids, late last thursday night. I was doing about 85-95 mph on I-75 in the 2009 Aura XR 3.6 blowing my eardrums out of my head with XM. :shades: We got busy today despite the cold weather. I've been working my butt off since last friday thus I haven't had time to drop in here lately. I got to touch a $1.9 million dollar Bugatti Veyron, and was like a kid in a candy store touching Lamborghini's, Rolls Royces, Bentley's, Acura TL's, Maserrati's, Hummer's, Aston Martins, Bimmers, Cadillac's, Saturns, etc, etc, you name I pretty much got to see em'....It was just a blast for me because you all know how much I love cars. I work for a first class dealership and just maybe the best owned and operated dealer group in the world. I haven't sold any cars yet but I have about 6 solid spoons in the pot presently. I met a guy who sold 96 Saturns last March and sold 40 last month....The guy makes well into the six figure bracket. The economy on Oakland county in Detriot, is unbelievable solid thus that is one of many reasons why they sell cars so well there. I drove by the Delphi Corporate HQ and was like wow!! I drove by Chrysler's HQ also. One of these days I'm going to GM's HQ and I am working on getting a Duke University basketball jersey for Rick Wagoner, to sign. He was in Washington, thus I didn't get a chance to go meet him but one of our lady's who knows him very well promised me she would get him to sign it!!! It might be a one of a kind thing and when Rick Wagoner, hangs up the fountain pen and goes down in history as the man who helped save GM, from extinction and helped them climb back to #1 with a little help from the UAW, Congress that signs a domestic content act into law well this present disaster will only be a chapter in a remarkable novel. The United Auto Workers, might yet still save this country from un free-market capitalism!!!
I do the crossword puzzle every morning (prior to work) both the daily commuter and the New Yorker. It awakens the mind and expands knowledge. You wouldn't understand, its a UAW/MENSA thing. Mondays are quite simple and they get harder as the week goes on. Good thing we don't work Fridays.
Even when GM and Toyota were almost tied for #1 position in sales, one made money, while the other is on the verge of bankruptcy. Hmm.. so what went wrong?
That article is well written and based on the facts. The public needs to beware/aware of what outlet they use for news/information. This typical UAW worker is a far cry from the UWA worker which the corporate owned media outlets have created.
Is it reasonable to pay $14 an hour? Has the UAW gone above and beyond in past years to foster relations with the Big Three, and all the while taking care of its obligations to membership? Would it be ethical to pull the rug out from retirees?
Make no mistake about it. GM is doing the right by doing an attrition/buy out methods of dealing with its legacy. There is a cost associated with it. Most large companies are moving away from "defined pension plans".
I know for a fact that UAW and Big Three management have met and discussed all these issues. Black Lake in Michigan has a great golf course and they have broken bread there.
FYI, the small lodge at Black Lake is where Desi and Lucy spent their honeymoon.
The economy on Oakland county in Detriot, is unbelievable solid thus that is one of many reasons why they sell cars so well there.
It's not so rock solid Rock. There are a number of foreclosed homes in my neighborhood.
My neighbor just bought a bigger nicer house a little north of here and could not sell his old house for anywhere near what he owed. Just let it go into foreclosure. I went through it and it is a tear down unfortunately with all the work it needs. We did not have the extreme housing bubble here so prices did not skyrocket in the last 5 years but they still dropped. The house I sold 7 years ago is on the market for what I sold it. Too many houses sitting w/o buyers.
Yes Oakland county has the highest income per family in the US (something like that) but many are cutting back which is driving this whole economy downwards. But you are right, there is still a lot of of money here.
Most large companies are moving away from "defined pension plans".
I would expect a lot of Unions to do the same. It is so difficult to keep paying retirees that are living to a much older age with diminishing membership in Unions. I don't know of any non government Union that is growing in numbers. Many cities and counties and states are also having a hard time paying those retirees pensions and health care benefits they worked for.
Here is a good article on a city in CA that has filed bankruptcy to get out of Union contracts with city employees and retirees.
Many people have liberated themselves from the Big Three after a negative ownership experience, and have no desire to give them any more money, whether it's directly by purchasing one of their products, or indirectly through an infusion of taxpayer dollars.
dallasdude: This typical UAW worker is a far cry from the UWA worker which the corporate owned media outlets have created.
Having talked to former plant supervisors from GM, and read articles and editorials written by both union members and plant supervisory personnel, I agree.
Perception is everything, or almost everything. If anything is to be learned from Detroit's beg-fest on Capitol Hill, it's at least that much. Perception influences reality.
Thus we have the General Motors "confession," its "commitment to the American people" published on the second page of the Dec. 8 edition of Automotive News, an industry trade journal. It presents an object lesson in perception versus reality.
Reality: The "confession" is a rehash of sins committed by a GM that existed 20 years ago, stupidities so enormous -- pathetic product quality, dismal marketing techniques, all trumped by corporate arrogance -- they opened the ports to foreign competition and paved the way for defections of generations of American consumers to Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
* * *
Perception: It is that the GM of 20 years ago is the same GM today -- the same insular corporate culture, a Midwest car company wedded to the belief that the only good horsepower is more horsepower, a corporation unalterably opposed to even the most reasonable fuel economy and clean air regulations.
That is the GM and, by implication, the Detroit that Washington loves to hate -- the one whose corporate heads lawmakers were eager to decapitate when U.S. car executives came to Capitol Hill in recent weeks seeking billions of dollars in federal emergency loans.
Reality: That old GM disappeared in the early 1990s. It was replaced by a company that continued to make mistakes -- for example, initially establishing its Saturn group as a stand-alone company and wasting money on the horrid Pontiac Aztek crossover utility vehicle. But the new GM at least recognized its errors and moved with reasonable dispatch to correct them. ad_icon
* * *
Perception: GM has refused to undertake a needed, major restructuring.
Reality: That's baloney. But seemingly intelligent politicians such as President-elect Barack Obama have been swallowing it. Even a cursory review of GM's corporate actions over the past decade shows that GM has invested much energy and enormous sums of money into integrating its once-too-far-flung global operations into one global unit; increasing product development, design and manufacturing efficiencies; and greatly improving product quality and innovation. But based on comments from Obama and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), to the effect that GM must stop resisting change, one wonders whether either of them has bothered reading Harbour Consulting, J.D. Power, or any other available, objective reports detailing GM's recent progress.
* * *
Perception: GM is opposed to making fuel-efficient vehicles. It is wedded to big trucks.
Reality: GM is no different from Toyota or Nissan -- or Suzuki. It is wedded to making money. Until a few years ago in a United States awash in cheap gasoline, that meant making as many trucks as possible, because light trucks, powered by U.S. consumer demand, were more than 50 percent of new-vehicle sales. Small, fuel-efficient cars barely constituted 4.5 percent of the market.
The problem there involved a U.S. Congress that refused to exercise leadership and tamp down consumer demand for petroleum by raising federal fuel taxes, as much as it did Detroit's alleged resistance to fuel economy.
* * *
Perception: GM was alone in pursuing truck dollars.
Reality: That's more baloney. Nearly all car companies doing business in the United States went after that money. But here's the kicker: An amalgam of Southern states gave hundreds of millions of dollars in tax incentives to GM's foreign rivals to build nonunion assembly plants in their region. Beneficiaries of those states' "business-friendly" policies included BMW, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota -- all of which used taxpayer dollars to set up nonunion truck plants to go after the truck business dominated by union-represented GM, Ford and Chrysler manufacturing facilities.
They went after the truck money. Toyota launched and re-launched its Tundra pickup. Heck, even Suzuki has cobbled together a full-size Equator pickup.
* * *
Perception: GM does not know how to make small cars.
Reality: GM knows darn well how to make small cars. It's been doing so for decades in Europe, South America and Asia. The problem is, absent high fuel prices, GM has no earthly idea how to get Americans to buy small cars -- at a profit to GM.
* * *
Perception: Americans have been demanding the small cars that GM and Detroit refuse to build.
Reality: That's more perceptual junk. The reality is that most American consumers seek fuel economy only when pump prices are high. Take a look at what is happening now in the U.S. market for new vehicles. With average pump prices below $2 a gallon for regular unleaded, sales of small, fuel-efficient cars such as the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus have plummeted farther and more quickly than those in the general vehicle market.
The Civic that was hot in May 2008 with 53,299 sales was not in November with 17,690 sales, according to the Automotive News Data Center. Ditto the Corolla, 52,826 sold in May 2008 versus 21,807 sold in November; and the Focus, 32,579 sold in May versus 8,194 sold in November.
But Ford has been forced to restore two shifts and overtime work to meet demand for its re-engineered 2009 F-150 pickup truck . . . and Nissan is retooling its taxpayer-assisted, nonunion plant in Canton, Miss., to take on Detroit in the commercial truck arena.
* * *
Perception: All Detroit needs is deep restructuring and federal bailout money for long-term viability.
Reality: Wrong. Detroit needs what America sorely needs -- a Congress with the leadership chutzpah to devise and implement industrial and energy policies that will help to keep native manufacturing industries alive. Detroit's problem isn't poor products or lack of products. It's a national government still wedded to the debilitating siren song of cheap gasoline. It's a nationally collapsed financial system. And it's governmental hypocrisy -- our willingness to pour tax dollars into foreign enterprises, most of them not unionized, while griping about doing the same for homegrown, unionized manufacturers largely responsible for building America's middle class.
The real difficulty is that if GM didn't sell large trucks in the past few years, they would be criticized now for now selling trucks to help pay the base costs. If they do sell trucks they are criticized for selling trucks.
If GM had held out in the strikes to resist the UAW, American's newspaper and media types would criticize them for hurting the economy and hurting all those families out of work. The same would have used the other two car companies' actions against GM. If they give in to the demands through negotiaitions, they are Monday-morning-quarterbacked for giving it. It's like the divorced husband after listening to the witching from the wife for years. Nothing suits them.
Other countries are subsidizing their car industries. Indeed some helped the ones who have come here to take over the car industry in various ways.Now we're at the pivot point and it's time for our government to do several things. Congress needs to take appropriate action (an oxymoron, I know). In fact they need to harness the transplants and have them help fund the problem they have caused. Congress needs to undo the union agreements for the Big 3 (think Time Magazine's Man of the Year will do that with part of the $600 million campaign funds having come from labor?).
Comments
Since 1990 pension funds are highly regulated. If the fund falls under a certain percentage the company has to make up the difference or get fined. Most pension funds that are left are pretty safe. It is 401k that gives each individual control of his pension. You can put it in very safe investments or very risky. It is the risky ones that are taking a beating in this market.
Well, that is the meaning of temp...
That is not true at all. Someone gave you some bum information. I paid into SS and a pension for 46 years before I retired. I paid into a 401k in addition to my pension for 8 years. There is no legal way to get out of paying into Social Security. Or I would have done it. Biggest rip-off in the country.
I have gone round and round with Rocky on this subject. My contention is you are on the payroll and the boss asks you to sweep the floor. There should not be work rules that keep you from doing what he asks. Just because you are a lug nut assembler does not mean you should not do what ever needs to be done within your capability. Strict rules have hogtied the B3 for way too long. Time to file for BK and get out of those contracts. Hire people that want to work and are willing to do what it takes to make GM some money.
I would bet those Toyota workers that are out mowing the grass instead of standing in the unemployment line are happy they work for a well run company.
What companies are allowed to do this?
...unless you're a government employee.
This is one of the most offensive things about some unions. Instead of appreciating having a job and being paid to work, they are like spoiled children. Clearly NOT concerned about the best interests of the company, who feeds them.
Now that the UAW has almost strangled GM to death they want the non-union taxpayers to bail them out so that their gilded lifestyle does not get hurt. They should have been more concerned about working with their employer to make the company successful.
Should have gone to work on the railroad.
As a former Social Security Administration employee, I can explain this.
When Social Security was enacted in the 1930s, state & local civil service employees weren't covered at all - partly because most of them had pensions but mainly because the legal experts of the day thought that it would be unconstitutional for the Federal government to force state governments to pay FICA tax.
Then, in the 1950s, someone came up with a workaround: amend the Social Security Act to allow states to sign voluntary "coverage agreements" with the Feds to cover specific groups of employees. A state might, for example, designate all members of the teachers' pension plan in that state as a "coverage group" & have them vote for or against SS coverage. If a majority voted for it, the state would then sign an agreement with the Feds. Employees already in the retirement system prior to the effective date could elect or decline SS coverage, but for new employees, SS would be mandatory.
Most states in my part of the country (the Northeast) signed coverage agreements, but there were still some holdouts when I left the agency in the early 80s. Even in my state (NY), which was one of the first to sign coverage agreements, temp employees weren't covered because they didn't belong to a state retirement plan. Other states (NJ, for example), signed separate agreements to cover temps.
I don't think that a state can revoke a coverage agreement but I'm not sure of this.
"The UAW leadership has given one cutback after another to the auto bosses since president Ron Gettelfinger took office in 2002.
In 2002, 2005 and 2007 the UAW gave up health benefits and agreed to sweeping wage cuts. These concessions include two-tier pay levels so that newly hired workers are making under $14 per hour.
Now as profits and stock values plummet for GM, Chrysler and Ford, the ruling class has initiated a full-throttled campaign to blame "rich auto workers" for the crisis facing the companies. Politicians and the corporate media have demanded the auto workers’ union surrender every advance won through decades of organizing, picketing and strikes, including during the heroic era of the sit-down strikes in the mid-1930s."
Lessons for labor: capitulation is not the only way (Party for Socialism and Liberation - nice graphic of Che on their site too
I do wish that I had chosen to pay into SS also. Since that I am 100% Disabled Veteran and unable to get SSD.
I'll know what happens with me in four years and a month if I go at 62.
i saw a group of houses that had 1 exterior wall painted a dull orange.
all had had fires. not sure if it was related.
He makes a point in spite of his being all wet. We should not rebuild New Orleans any more than we should save GM from their inability to build cars people want and make a profit doing so. Rebuilding homes in a floodplain is very much like giving money to the Big 3. A huge waste of resources.
Thats pathetic if you can't name this source.
fyi I was quoting another poster.
Here is a chart on how much money has gone down the jobs bank rat hole.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/12/cost-of-jobs-bank-2005-2008-4200000000.html
from steve's article:
WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
More lies from Gettlefinger. He claimed that UAW workers topped at $28 while Toyota paid $32. Well unless this guy was lying he was sitting on his duff making $31+ per hour.
Then the bigger question is how many guys do they have in these plants that are there just to change a light bulb when it burns out? Just sitting the rest of the day. All because of restrictive job classifications.
Teachers don't pay into SS, they have their own form of SS. I taught for two years and upon leaving I asked for my money back and got a check.
The sub prime mess is a contagion to the whole banking system. Financial stocks are key components to most pension plans, personal stock portfolios, etc. Now because too many sketchy loans were written, especially without a fair amount of owner equity, the vast majority of middle-income earners have to suffer needlessly. As the stock market goes, so do the pension plans.
This problem could have been largely avoided if more mortgages were held in house and banks and other financial institutions managed a balanced portfolio of loans. However as mortgages became largely trade-able commodities there became a greater incentive to pass off the "hot potatoes" as quickly as possible so you don't get burned. Little did we know that there were so many "hot potatoes" accumulating at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Oh, by the way, Fannie and Freddie are now traded on the NYSE so they better play the game too.
Very insightful
But I guess the funniest (perhaps not to the the employees though) "alternative use" of union labor was by Japan Railways in the early 90s, when they went through a long process of downsizing. They had their employees growing mushrooms in abandoned tunnels (since they had shut down some railway lines too).
Wait for it - it's still early.
Two U.S. pension funds see $52 mln hit from Madoff (Reuters)
More from the left press:
Bail Out the Auto Industry? Why Not Take Over Their Health Care Instead? (Alternet)
Imagine Americans trading with the communist??? Joey McCarthy should be turning in his grave.
www.savannahdfw.com
If any of you are looking for a car........
"The Rock" :shades:
I do the crossword puzzle every morning (prior to work) both the daily commuter and the New Yorker. It awakens the mind and expands knowledge. You wouldn't understand, its a UAW/MENSA thing. Mondays are quite simple and they get harder as the week goes on. Good thing we don't work Fridays.
-Rocky
Is it reasonable to pay $14 an hour? Has the UAW gone above and beyond in past years to foster relations with the Big Three, and all the while taking care of its obligations to membership? Would it be ethical to pull the rug out from retirees?
Enough of playing politics with real people.
Because you can no longer get a party line, for one, and if they were going to go that far, why not room together and save on rent too?
Are you legally "required" to get a SSN??? If you do all your dealings in cash, can it be traced???
I know for a fact that UAW and Big Three management have met and discussed all these issues. Black Lake in Michigan has a great golf course and they have broken bread there.
FYI, the small lodge at Black Lake is where Desi and Lucy spent their honeymoon.
Best of luck in your new job, if you are as enthusiastic on the sales floor as in here you should do well.
Now let me tell you about where I don't agree with your union views....
It's not so rock solid Rock. There are a number of foreclosed homes in my neighborhood.
My neighbor just bought a bigger nicer house a little north of here and could not sell his old house for anywhere near what he owed. Just let it go into foreclosure. I went through it and it is a tear down unfortunately with all the work it needs. We did not have the extreme housing bubble here so prices did not skyrocket in the last 5 years but they still dropped. The house I sold 7 years ago is on the market for what I sold it. Too many houses sitting w/o buyers.
Yes Oakland county has the highest income per family in the US (something like that) but many are cutting back which is driving this whole economy downwards. But you are right, there is still a lot of of money here.
Yes and you have to get one now for your new borns.
http://www.blacklakegolf.com/
Golf there is probably not very good these days!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would expect a lot of Unions to do the same. It is so difficult to keep paying retirees that are living to a much older age with diminishing membership in Unions. I don't know of any non government Union that is growing in numbers. Many cities and counties and states are also having a hard time paying those retirees pensions and health care benefits they worked for.
Here is a good article on a city in CA that has filed bankruptcy to get out of Union contracts with city employees and retirees.
http://www.bondbuyer.com/article.html?id=20080724HFB58CR6
Many people have liberated themselves from the Big Three after a negative ownership experience, and have no desire to give them any more money, whether it's directly by purchasing one of their products, or indirectly through an infusion of taxpayer dollars.
dallasdude: This typical UAW worker is a far cry from the UWA worker which the corporate owned media outlets have created.
Having talked to former plant supervisors from GM, and read articles and editorials written by both union members and plant supervisory personnel, I agree.
They are worse.
By Warren Brown
Sunday, December 14, 2008; Page G02
Originally appeared at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/12/AR2008121201927.- html
Perception is everything, or almost everything.
If anything is to be learned from Detroit's beg-fest on Capitol Hill, it's at least that much.
Perception influences reality.
Thus we have the General Motors "confession," its "commitment to the American people" published on the second page of the Dec. 8 edition of Automotive News, an industry trade journal. It presents an object lesson in perception versus reality.
Reality: The "confession" is a rehash of sins committed by a GM that existed 20 years ago, stupidities so enormous -- pathetic product quality, dismal marketing techniques, all trumped by corporate arrogance -- they opened the ports to foreign competition and paved the way for defections of generations of American consumers to Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
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Perception: It is that the GM of 20 years ago is the same GM today -- the same insular corporate culture, a Midwest car company wedded to the belief that the only good horsepower is more horsepower, a corporation unalterably opposed to even the most reasonable fuel economy and clean air regulations.
That is the GM and, by implication, the Detroit that Washington loves to hate -- the one whose corporate heads lawmakers were eager to decapitate when U.S. car executives came to Capitol Hill in recent weeks seeking billions of dollars in federal emergency loans.
Reality: That old GM disappeared in the early 1990s. It was replaced by a company that continued to make mistakes -- for example, initially establishing its Saturn group as a stand-alone company and wasting money on the horrid Pontiac Aztek crossover utility vehicle. But the new GM at least recognized its errors and moved with reasonable dispatch to correct them.
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Perception: GM has refused to undertake a needed, major restructuring.
Reality: That's baloney. But seemingly intelligent politicians such as President-elect Barack Obama have been swallowing it. Even a cursory review of GM's corporate actions over the past decade shows that GM has invested much energy and enormous sums of money into integrating its once-too-far-flung global operations into one global unit; increasing product development, design and manufacturing efficiencies; and greatly improving product quality and innovation. But based on comments from Obama and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), to the effect that GM must stop resisting change, one wonders whether either of them has bothered reading Harbour Consulting, J.D. Power, or any other available, objective reports detailing GM's recent progress.
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Perception: GM is opposed to making fuel-efficient vehicles. It is wedded to big trucks.
Reality: GM is no different from Toyota or Nissan -- or Suzuki. It is wedded to making money. Until a few years ago in a United States awash in cheap gasoline, that meant making as many trucks as possible, because light trucks, powered by U.S. consumer demand, were more than 50 percent of new-vehicle sales. Small, fuel-efficient cars barely constituted 4.5 percent of the market.
The problem there involved a U.S. Congress that refused to exercise leadership and tamp down consumer demand for petroleum by raising federal fuel taxes, as much as it did Detroit's alleged resistance to fuel economy.
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Perception: GM was alone in pursuing truck dollars.
Reality: That's more baloney. Nearly all car companies doing business in the United States went after that money. But here's the kicker: An amalgam of Southern states gave hundreds of millions of dollars in tax incentives to GM's foreign rivals to build nonunion assembly plants in their region. Beneficiaries of those states' "business-friendly" policies included BMW, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota -- all of which used taxpayer dollars to set up nonunion truck plants to go after the truck business dominated by union-represented GM, Ford and Chrysler manufacturing facilities.
They went after the truck money. Toyota launched and re-launched its Tundra pickup. Heck, even Suzuki has cobbled together a full-size Equator pickup.
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Perception: GM does not know how to make small cars.
Reality: GM knows darn well how to make small cars. It's been doing so for decades in Europe, South America and Asia. The problem is, absent high fuel prices, GM has no earthly idea how to get Americans to buy small cars -- at a profit to GM.
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Perception: Americans have been demanding the small cars that GM and Detroit refuse to build.
Reality: That's more perceptual junk. The reality is that most American consumers seek fuel economy only when pump prices are high. Take a look at what is happening now in the U.S. market for new vehicles. With average pump prices below $2 a gallon for regular unleaded, sales of small, fuel-efficient cars such as the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus have plummeted farther and more quickly than those in the general vehicle market.
The Civic that was hot in May 2008 with 53,299 sales was not in November with 17,690 sales, according to the Automotive News Data Center. Ditto the Corolla, 52,826 sold in May 2008 versus 21,807 sold in November; and the Focus, 32,579 sold in May versus 8,194 sold in November.
But Ford has been forced to restore two shifts and overtime work to meet demand for its re-engineered 2009 F-150 pickup truck . . . and Nissan is retooling its taxpayer-assisted, nonunion plant in Canton, Miss., to take on Detroit in the commercial truck arena.
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Perception: All Detroit needs is deep restructuring and federal bailout money for long-term viability.
Reality: Wrong. Detroit needs what America sorely needs -- a Congress with the leadership chutzpah to devise and implement industrial and energy policies that will help to keep native manufacturing industries alive. Detroit's problem isn't poor products or lack of products. It's a national government still wedded to the debilitating siren song of cheap gasoline. It's a nationally collapsed financial system. And it's governmental hypocrisy -- our willingness to pour tax dollars into foreign enterprises, most of them not unionized, while griping about doing the same for homegrown, unionized manufacturers largely responsible for building America's middle class.
If GM had held out in the strikes to resist the UAW, American's newspaper and media types would criticize them for hurting the economy and hurting all those families out of work. The same would have used the other two car companies' actions against GM. If they give in to the demands through negotiaitions, they are Monday-morning-quarterbacked for giving it. It's like the divorced husband after listening to the witching from the wife for years. Nothing suits them.
Other countries are subsidizing their car industries. Indeed some helped the ones who have come here to take over the car industry in various ways.Now we're at the pivot point and it's time for our government to do several things. Congress needs to take appropriate action (an oxymoron, I know). In fact they need to harness the transplants and have them help fund the problem they have caused. Congress needs to undo the union agreements for the Big 3 (think Time Magazine's Man of the Year will do that with part of the $600 million campaign funds having come from labor?).
It's going to be interesting.
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