We actually were well out of the depression long before we entered WW2, Thanks to FDR.
You can believe that if you like. We were building war ships and war materials all during the 1930s. The late 1930s was the beginning of the UAW. They were founded well into FDRs administration. Was dissent and labor abuses part of the FDR legacy?
Your wrong assessment of the Reagan years is noted. As a working stiff I did much better after Reagan took office than during the Democrat controlled Congress from JFK through Carter. Nixon was a non entity to the working man. Congress ran the domestic end of the country and just about buried US in over bearing taxes. After Reagan got in and people were expected to work for a living it was tough on the featherbedders in the US auto industry. I think the consensus here is the Big 3 and the UAW built crappy cars pretty much from 1970s through the present. Not all can be blamed on the UAW. The workmanship on the cars can and that shows up in much of what was built.
I find it funny that we see history from a totally different perspective. I from a middle class hardworking Union man and you from? I was raised in a close to poverty Christian home. We would not think of asking for government help even when there was no food in our home. Democrats & welfare were dirty words in my childhood home. They both denoted people too lazy to work. No work, no eat...... I liked to eat so I worked from the time I was very young. I was not brought up to think because I was born in America I was entitled to anything but the freedom to go out and make a living.
You or I cannot cut a deal that employee and or any collective bargaining employee pertaining to their work issues. You must do this with their respective representation. Its like calling your mortgage company, getting your call answered by an outsourced service from India, and trying to reason with them as to why you want to change the terms you agreed to. A contract is a two way street and maybe if they made them a sound offer, they might be willing to reconsider. You sound like someone who is saying you sign here or else. Almost like a Toyota/Honda dealer not moving on price.
If your about to lose your home and or car, do you call the insurance company and demand they lower your premiums? Can you call the tax office and demand they lower your assessment?
Your case that the UAW is responsible for the Big Three's business failure is silly. If one can see that this an entire industry/economy suffering, its self evident that the UAW has been an asset over the years and out sold imports as a whole. There was more meat on the arguement of AIG at SPA's and bonuses. This is but a political witch hunt and grand standing. 700 billion and the executive office illegaly rewriting the tax code to support a non union industry reeks of the rats they are. Labor supported Obama and therefore labor has a special relationship. Just as big business had with GW and Company.
when the democrats were talking about the outrages amounts of money CEO's make the republicans could not get up there and say this enough... " washington can not regulate wages. then when the workers in the UAW need help the republicans want to reduce the wages and benefits of the workers by breaking up their union. Tell me the republicans are not only in office to to make the rich richers and the workers indentured slaves? :mad:
Your case that the UAW is responsible for the Big Three's business failure is silly. If one can see that this an entire industry/economy suffering, its self evident that the UAW has been an asset over the years and out sold imports as a whole.
Why are 50% of the domestic producers financially successful? They just happen to be the 50% that are not UAW. You call the UAW an asset. I think they were an asset in the early days, but greed has now destroyed an entire industry. The foreign nameplates had no such boat anchor and are successful. Even the domestic makes are successful outside this country. They are building new plants away from UAW influence and importing a higher percentage of their product.
I from a middle class hardworking Union man and you from?
I went to a parochial school in Chicago (is that Christian?), we weren't racist. Nor do we label all people by political association. We prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and thereby see their real character. As Jesus put it "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me". Wave the flag you want, my daddy's coffin was draped by that flag. Patriotism doesn't mean that you must support unjust wars and or brutal murder of helpless people. The true patriots were those who opposed the Vietnam war and hastened its end.
Why are 50% of the domestic producers financially successful? They just happen to be the 50% that are not UAW. You call the UAW an asset.
Last I looked Toyota stock was at a 52 week low. Half price. You are delusional if you consider that successful. Nothing they build appeals to me, it must be basic transportation for the masses.
The Cadillac CTS is UAW Michigan and the hottest car out there. Show me a Toyota that even in the same class as a VETT. Solstice/Sky are killing the two seater market. Have you been looking at cars lately? I did like the two seater Lexus, but the price is outrageous. Other than that their cars are fugly. You have to go look at BMW to get anything better than the American hot sellers.
Tell me the republicans are not only in office to to make the rich richers and the workers indentured slaves?
Republicans made become an endangered species within four years. No dimples or chads this past election. Just folks speaking their minds. It wasn't even close.
During talks with GM, the UAW pointed out that while the automaker has complained that hourly wages and benefits are dragging it down, it has continued awarding bonuses to its top executives.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner "earned" $9.3 million in salary and bonus in 2006, nearly double what he "earned" in 2005.
While UAW members finish voting on a new contract with General Motors that includes a cost-of-living freeze, union negotiators have moved on to Chrysler, with Ford Motor (F) next.
Chrysler's new CEO, Bob Nardelli, became a symbol of corporate excess when he left Home Depot early this year with a $210 million severance package. Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.
Unfortunately, as it always does, unregulated capitalism destroyed itself as those with inordinate money and power were able to circumvent the laws of free market.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you blaming laissez-faire (not "laizze-fair", whatever that is) capitalism for the onset of the Depression? If you are, you should know that many economists would fault the Fed for keeping interest rates too low during the boom years of the late 1920s & then boosting rates after the 1929 market crash.
Even if you don't think that Fed fumbling caused the Depression, you have to agree with almost every economist, Republican or Democrat, that sharp tariff increases, triggered by the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Act, dramatically deepened & lengthened the downturn. After we raised tariffs to keep out imports & protect our manufacturers, every other industrial country followed suit. As a result, global trade dried up & factories all over the world shut down. Bad government policy, not "greedy businessmen", transformed what would otherwise have been a 2-year recession into the legendary Great Depression.
We actually were well out of the depression long before we entered WW2, Thanks to FDR.
Not if you look at the unemployment numbers. Note that the unemployment rate in 1928, the last full year before the Depression began, was 4.2%. By contrast, the rate in 1940, which was the last year of FDR's 2nd term, was 14.6% - more than 3 times higher. Not until the wartime year of 1942 (Pearl Harbor was bombed in December, 1941) did unemployment approach the 1928 level.
Clearly, the war effort put far more people back to work than FDR's New Deal programs did. Indeed, you could go a step further & argue, as I would, that WWII - not the New Deal - laid the groundwork for the prosperity that we enjoyed for the next 30 years.
Unfortunately, as it always does, unregulated capitalism destroyed itself as those with inordinate money and power were able to circumvent the laws of free market.
So why was the reason to enact the Sherman Anti Trust Act? To imprison Eugene Debs? Is this the Darwinism of capitalism?
I agree that any spending, which tariffs would hinder, fueling the economy, therefore social spending/public works must also fuel the economy. If you were alive then social spending was tabu. However, spending on the war machine allowed those robber barons profit, hence it was OK then. The American were on rations and sacrificing. The corporations were doing their part too, making money from the war.
I just read, in succession, On a Clear day you Can See General Motors, the John DeLorean book, and then Call Me Roger, about Roger Smith's tenure as CEO...oddly, altho the books are "unrelated", DeLorean tells about GM from 1956 to the late 1970s, and, for different reasons, the next book covers Smith from 1981 to 1990...read the books and they will explain in perfect detail why GM is in trouble...written 20 and 30 years ago, they could have been written yesterday...they are on point for the GM problems of this hour...
GM has wasted hundreds of billions $$$ on the payroll of people who never should have had jobs to begin with...It would be like a Mom & Pop hardware store in a small town, where, instead of 2-4 employees, they had 50 and wondered why they can't make any money...GM should have jettisoned thousands of middle managers whose sole job was to aggravate those below them and push worthless paper forms around to look busy...
The only shame is that those workers about to be jettisoned have made their lives around GM (Ford, too) but they will become the casualties of war...however, rather than see them for what they lost, you could also say that they had some mighty fat years in a job that never should have been created from the beginning...
The automakers will now slim down to become half its size...Michigan will slowly work thru this but will still become a ghost town compared to what it was, and what ti was was an overemployed money waster...
Kinda like a school system which grows from 1000 to 2000 students...you hire new teachers for the growing student body, but once the "boom class" graduates and the school shrinks back to 1000, you can eliminate the extra teachers as they are unnecessary...cruel to the teachers???...maybe, but when a system does not need you, it is criminal to keep somebody on payroll solely because "they have been there"...for the system it is an evolution, for the individual it is a revolution...
The workers will be eliminated as they simply are no longer needed...the re-training they will be offered will be charity from us, but they better get motivated as there is no time to shed tears, life goes on...
Monday of this week I spoke to the other lawyers in my office, saying that the Big 3 must go Chapter 11 now, to junk all their unnecessary debt and contracts...they ALL reminded me about the "ripple effect" to which I replied that the ripple effect does not matter, we cannot pay people to make (Big 3) cars that no one wants to buy...that was Monday...
Today, after hearing that the UAW will not budge an inch until 2011, despite the possibility of bankruptcy, they ALL came in and said that the UAW can go to hell, and they ALL said that GM/Ford should file for bankruptcy TODAY and stick in up the UAW's collective behind...
As time goes on, the whole UAW strategy may backfire, as folks who make much less than a UAW member may become quite resentful about buying a car made by someone who makes much more than they do...few cared while times were good, but now that the UAW is front and center on the news, even the average guy may get fed up...
Then there really only WILL be 2 people who will buy Big 3...lemko and rockylee...
Clearly, the war effort put far more people back to work than FDR's New Deal programs did. Indeed, you could go a step further & argue, as I would, that WWII - not the New Deal - laid the groundwork for the prosperity that we enjoyed for the next 30 years.
They have doctored the unemployment rate, just as they have doctored the CPI (consumer price index). Its like comparing the steroid ball players of today to those of by gone eras. The rules of even baseball have been changed. Mounds lowered after the last 30 game winner, designated hitter, and many more.
To conclude that Nixon era inflation was prosperity is insanity. S&L bail outs by Reagan. You just have to define prosperity and find the real driver in these metrics. I can argue and will argue that unions, which include the UAW, are responsible for the largest middle class in history. Free trade, pollute all you want zones like Hong Kong envy our middle class, as does China and their exploitation of workers, child labor, and God knows what else.
Today, after hearing that the UAW will not budge an inch until 2011, despite the possibility of bankruptcy, they ALL came in and said that the UAW can go to hell, and they ALL said that GM/Ford should file for bankruptcy TODAY and stick in up the UAW's collective behind...
I feel an executive order from our commander and chief, President Obama.
So why was the reason to enact the Sherman Anti Trust Act? To imprison Eugene Debs? Is this the Darwinism of capitalism?
You've lost me, my friend. Are you PWI'ing again? My previous post was a response to points that you had made about the New Deal - specifically about how New Deal programs had purportedly pulled the economy out of the Depression. But the Sherman Act was passed in 1890, more than 40 years earlier, & is thus unrelated to the earlier discussion. If there's a point buried in this post, I'm afraid that I don't see it.
The "financial" bailout will end up in the trillions. The potential Big3 bailout should be 40 billion or so. If we are willing to toss 1,000,000,000,000+ to wall street you would think that 40,000,000,000 would be small potatoes. Why is the average american more concerned with the money that would be used for salaries of blue collar folks then they are the 25x amount at least that will be spent on the lazy, greedy wall street morons who could care less about them?
It looks like the UAW is making a stand. They are tired of making all the concessions while the management fat cats who have managed the company poorly get rich. Seems like a reasonable position to me. Let the management fat cats take cuts to their salary/benefits in order to save the company.
Alternatively, maybe the UAW president has been in touch with some politicians who have assured him a bailout is coming so he comes out firing in order to take the initiative. Negotiating 101.
I'm so tired of all this non sense about the autoworkers making Joe the plumber money. Say is isn't so Joe?
>I doubt the UAW likes the idea of performance-based bonuses.
Even I would oppose it if the company I was working for is a private organization. The owners can cook the books in whatever fashion they like and the labor has to suffer.
But in a publicly held company where the CEO is also paid performance bonus, all the employees should be given a bonus on the same standard. By the way, the fortune 500 company my wife works for, and one which has not made a loss yet, but still sold off the corporate jets as the markets deteriorated, has performance based bonus across all employees, which is based upon how much profit the company made. She can get anywhere from 5 to 10%. This time around she is looking at 2% at the most.
"Huntsville may be a more "upscale" city, whereas Detroit is, well, um, a city. It's a given that taxes are more in Mi."...
cooter, I do seem to like your quotes and have a blast responding to them...even if I don't make any sense...:):):)
Detroit is a slum, plain and simple...it was like that when I went there in 1980 and even worse when I left in 1990...stupid damn mayors all screamed racism, when they only had to look in the mirror to understand why working people of ALL races were deserting the town like a tornado just struck...lousy management and some of the highest taxes around...a mere $60K home had taxes around $2-3K, and what you got for your money was affirmative action of the worst incompetent people available...
The best way to see Detroit is in your rear view mirror...I defy ANYONE to find anything good to say about the City of Detroit, and rocky doesn't count...:):):)
other reasons that WWII got us out of the Depression is the one reason no one likes to say, but truth is truth...
The war removed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of (mostly) men from the US job market and sent them overseas to fight, and many of them were simply killed and permanently removed from possible job rolls...the war took our citizens in the prime of their lives and sent them out of the country...those that remained were working on the war effort...by the time the survivors came back in 1945, I am quite sure that the available pool of workers was much smaller than it was from 1935-1941...that is another way to alter employment, have a large portion of the workers simply killed as casualties of war...cruel thinking???...yes, but that does not change the fact that many potential job takers were permanently removed from the job rolls thanks to D-Day and other battles of WWII...
They shall, however, ALWAYS be remembered as heroes who gave the ultmate sacrifice, but they were removed from the employment rolls nonetheless...
Your argument is that capitalism left alone will never ever go wrong and that the markets will correct themselves. We have a history of this not being so. You have to have money to fuel the economy. Fiscal and monetary policy are govt's tools. Unfortunately they are sometimes used as political tools. After the dot com bust we began another lowering process, rather than letting the economy go into mild recession. Bush wanted to be both a good times and war times president. You are about left with govt spending as the only means to fuel this economy as interest rates are nearing zero. Sherman was passed to bust up the greedy monopoly seeking crooks/industrialist. You have no idea what these fools did to the workers. Consumerism was food, shelter, and clothing. Unions changed that. They had no intention of making model A's or T's for the masses. The UAW created the great middle class and consumerism we enjoy today. Even non union workers enjoy the prevailing wage, overtime, weekends, holidays, and much more. To compete for the best labor out there they must offer as good or better.
>I doubt the UAW likes the idea of performance-based bonuses.
>You lost me. Is that good or bad performance or both?
r u even serious? For a knowledgeable guy like you, this question is quite unexpected. Of course it is both. Bad performance? No Bonus + No salary raise. Good performance? Salary Raise + Bonus.
its self evident that the UAW has been an asset over the years
Yeah, right, sure. You can keep shoveling this stuff, but don't tell us that you actually believe it.
The UAW has been a problem for decades
Time Magazine Detroit's Uphill Battle By Alexander Taylor;Christopher Redman;Barrett Seaman Monday, Sep. 08, 1980
Detroit's labor force abetted the industry's slide into decline. Work was often sloppy. Cars built on Mondays and Fridays were frequently defective because high absenteeism meant the job was done by less experienced fill-ins. Workers at GM's notorious Lordstown, Ohio, plant rebelled at attempts to streamline production in the early '70s and brought the factory to a halt. The United Auto Workers union did little to stem the erosion of productivity. In an attempt to win ever higher wages no matter what the product, the U.A.W. went along with the automakers' insistence on quantity over quality. It failed to push for better working conditions or lower absenteeism, which would have reduced assembly line foulups. Wrote New York Times Labor Reporter William Serrin in his book The Company and the Union: "The union is aware of the problems of absenteeism and tardiness and shoddy workmanship, but whatever it does in this area must be done with great tact, if anything is done at all."
Close to 4,100 workers went on strike against the General Motors Corporation late Saturday night at a huge sport utility vehicle assembly plant in Moraine, Ohio, the fourth big strike against the world's largest auto maker in less than a year.
The International Union of Electronics Workers ordered the strike at midnight on Saturday after workers voted on Friday night against ratification of a new labor agreement that their leaders had concluded earlier in the week. The pact was controversial because it included a new program designed to penalize workers with high rates of absenteeism. Jeffrey S. Kuhlman, a G.M. spokesman, said that the company had agreed to drop the absenteeism program at 7 P.M. on Saturday, but that the union had proceeded with the strike anyway.
Changes in Attendance Procedure Changes in the Special Procedure for Attendance There was considerable discussion about the union’s insistence on preserving jobs and obtaining new work in the current highly competitive environment and the company’s concern for continued reduction in absenteeism . As a result, changes have been negotiated in the existing Special Procedure for Attendance.
Can you call the tax office and demand they lower your assessment?
Not sure what it has to do with the UAW. Yes last year I filed a form to get my home assessment lowered and they did. My home is now appraised for taxes $100,000 less. Saved me $1200 this year.
Your argument is that capitalism left alone will never ever go wrong and that the markets will correct themselves. We have a history of this not being so.
Given the same facts, one could argue just as convincingly that government screwups have done vastly more damage than unregulated free markets.
The UAW created the great middle class and consumerism we enjoy today.
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. The U.S. had a large & flourishing middle class by the late 1800s - years before Henry Ford started building cars & decades before the UAW was even born. What gave rise to the American middle class was post-Civil War industrialization. All those new factories required not just laborers to man the assembly lines but an entirely new class of office workers: clerks, secretaries, accountants, engineers, salesmen & managers. These people made up the new American middle class.
By 1890 - long before most Americans had even seen an automobile - the middle class as we know it today was firmly in place. The strongest claim that you can validly make is that the UAW made it possible for some blue collar workers to enjoy a white collar standard of living. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but it's a long, long way from saying that the UAW "created" the middle class, which simply isn't true.
The strongest claim that you can validly make is that the UAW made it possible for some blue collar workers to enjoy a white collar standard of living.
The UAW cannot even claim that distinction. The Teamsters of which I spent 37 years a member far pre dates the johnny come lately UAW. The only thing the UAW will have on its tombstone is they managed to destroy the US Domestic Automakers. They are currently a very small Union with less than 400k members and dwindling very fast.
Their little blip in the History books will probably note how in 2008 the UAW would rather the automakers go bankrupt than to give up anything to keep the industry afloat. Arrogant fools is all you can say about the UAW management. The members are just sheep.
Last I looked Toyota stock was at a 52 week low. Half price. You are delusional if you consider that successful.
Most people would say Toyota is extremely successful - they have become the world's #1 automaker, a title they took from GM. They may suffer some in a down economy, but they have money in reserve and they are not begging for handouts. I'd call that successful.
The Cadillac CTS is UAW Michigan and the hottest car out there. Show me a Toyota that even in the same class as a VETT. Solstice/Sky are killing the two seater market. Have you been looking at cars lately? I did like the two seater Lexus, but the price is outrageous. Other than that their cars are fugly. You have to go look at BMW to get anything better than the American hot sellers.
There are some good American hot sellers. Problem is that there are even more turds mixed in. Trim out all of the turds and there's a good market. Problem is that for GM that is less than half current size. I'd agree with you - prune all the junk, downsize the company and dealers commensurate with the good product only, and what is left is the start of a successful and viable company.
I'll repeat a previous question - Why are 50% of the auto makers in the US successful, and that 50% is the half that is NOT UAW?
nov '08 sales. 111000 more car sales by the D3 than J3. You keep calling that 252000 outvotes 363000. It doesn't and that makes everything you say false.
Last I looked Toyota stock was at a 52 week low. Half price. You are delusional if you consider that successful.
Lots of successful companies have a stock price that is half what it was 12 mos. ago. How many manufacturing stocks are up this year?
I do agree with Dallasdude, that Toyota has very little that appeals to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota losses money this year, but before the credit crunch, they were very profitable and increasing market share. Regardless of whether you like their product, that pretty much describes successful in my mind.
The masses don't feel sorry, or have much in common with the UAW mindset. They need to go away, so something better can spring up in it's place.
That is exactly right. The UAW is not representing the Middle Class in America. It is representing a Union that believes its workers deserve to be paid when they are not producing. It is a Union that believes they are entitled to a certain standard of living even when the company is broke. There are a lot of good Unions and Union people. The UAW is not one of them.
If you can believe Gettlefinger a non union Toyota worker makes more than a UAW worker. So why would the Toyota worker want to be enslaved by the UAW?
There's a young guy who just started working for us that dreams of a new Camaro and even has a picture of a red one as the desktop on his computer. The last time Toyota had anything close to a Corvette was the Supra. However, current Toyotas do give Maytags, Whirlpools and Kenmores a run for their money.
Well, at least Nissan is still in the game with the 350Z and the GT-R.
Geeze, that one heck of a way to look at it! Maybe all those soon-to-be unemployed UAW workers ought to just commit mass suicide to shrink the massive surplus labor pool. How about instead we deport about 12 million illegal laborers first? :mad:
How about instead we deport about 12 million illegal laborers first?
My choice for President Duncan Hunter wanted to do that. Mr Obama is for making them legal citizens with full voting rights. They will jump right into those jobs left vacant when the UAW contracts get voided. Then they will buy all the foreclosed homes in Detroit at pennies on the dollar and it will be the dawning of a new age in Michigan. They may even keep Buick around for your driving pleasure. Old Buicks are very popular with Latinos in my area.
If you think $40B is going to do it for Detroit, your credibility has just suffered irreversibly.
Last week, Moody's Economy.com economist Mark Zandi suggested during one of the auto bailout hearings on Capitol Hill that the Big Three could need between $75 billion to $125 billion over the next two years if they are to survive.
He predicted that even if the government approves the $34 billion loan package, the automakers would be back to Washington later in 2009 asking for additional help.
That's because he thinks U.S. auto sales will remain weak well into 2010, due to problems in the economy and the bubble in auto sales from earlier in the decade.
In his testimony, Zandi said he estimates the entire auto industry would have to shut down production for nearly a year to work off the excess cars and light trucks that were sold during the bubble years.
between $75 billion to $125 billion over the next two years if they are to survive.
That would be much closer to my guess. And even then GM will need to whittle costs a bunch to make money. If GM lost $38 billion last year with 16 million cars sold. What will they lose with only 10 million sold? We are getting lied to big time. No different than CA latest boondoggle. Getting a hi speed rail system past the voters telling them it will be only $10 billion. When the truth is it will be at least $90 billion before a single run from LA to SF is completed.
our hospital recently sent my boss-man and I to Atlanta, GA, to go to sleep-study school. Really, no sleeping was allowed during class time.
But I have to say, their rail system(called MARTA) in that eastern city(farthest east I have ever been)was really pretty useful, easy-to-operate, and efficient. Rail is still something that can have some goodness to it, esp. in a large, urban setting. They really use it there in Atlanta.
Bush will not have a GM failure on his watch. No president would want that in the history books: "Destroyed an Icon of American Industrial Might' When asked to be competitive with Japanese assembly wages the UAW would not promise anything at all. They refused to allow a date for that to be set. Most auto parts going into GM cars are made by $10 an hour factory workers in small towns around the Midwest and Mid-south. There is nothing to give there. Half of those companies are near bankruptcy already.
UAW wage of $28 an hour.
New college grads with mechanical, electrical, industrial, or manufacturing engineering degrees no longer recruited into $26 an hour jobs at the D3. There are just layoffs coming and a hiring freeze. Not much to give there.
I guess Gettlefinger thinks an engineer should give up $10 an hour and then make $12 less than a H.S. grad.
Result: president will give bridge loan to D3 and it will get us to the new congress session in Feb. to resume negotiations. Suppliers owed money will get 30 cents on the dollar. GM will make all their managers back into engineers. UAW will retain upper middle class incomes and black magic will be brought in to make the D3 competitive. How else can a $12 an hour excess UAW labor cost, 650,000 retirees pensions and health care, and inability to hire new blood into the design side be offset when you have to compete with the transplants? What of these would replacing Wagoner change?
I guess Gettlefinger thinks an engineer should give up $10 an hour and then make $12 less than a H.S. grad.
I listened to a salaried engineer with 33 years at GM. He claimed it was standard procedure for him to work 60 hours most weeks. No OT or comp time. Every time the UAW got raises the engineers got cut back a bit. He has no sympathy for the UAW workers and would just as soon see GM go bankrupt as to continue coddling the UAW. I think if all the UAW contracts were canceled tomorrow GM would be able to borrow all the money they need to restructure. No one with an ounce of sense would lend money with the restrictive contracts the UAW have in place at GM.
The UAW is not representing the Middle Class in America. It is representing a Union that believes its workers deserve to be paid when they are not producing.
The police and firefighters union is great too. And they don't produce a thing. Idle most of the time 24/7 and getting paid. More power to my brothers/sisters in uniform.
The UAW is the very reason there is the biggest middle class ever in history.
The UAW is the very reason there is the biggest middle class ever in history
Your total lack of understanding of what the middle class represents is showing. Most of the middle class do not make near $100k+ per year that many UAW workers make. The median income is more like $45k per year. The NON working UAW member in the jobs bank makes more than that per year.
Why would you think that less than 400k UAW workers represent anything but a handful of over paid featherbedders? If the Big 3 was making large profits the UAW could justify the wages. Truth is GM has not made a decent profit in 40 years. GM has been skimming from every segment of the company to feed this UAW monster on their back. It has been draining their resources to the point they now have to beg the lower paid REAL middle class to support their addiction. GM needs a 12 step program to rid themselves of this blight on the auto industry. A cancer they have fed for all these years by signing away the future of the company with unsustainable UAW contracts.
>The UAW is the very reason there is the biggest middle class ever in history.
You are getting delusional my friend.
GM, Ford and Chrysler are the reason for the middle class. Not UAW.
I don't know what these pea brained laborers think of themselves. Barely able to finish school and want the pay of an engineer or more? Get real.
There is, and always will be an intelligent class of people, and a labor class. The sole purpose of the labor class is to do the bidding of the intelligent class. Sounds rude? I think so myself. But that is reality.
The intelligent class of people create the business/work. The labor class only provides the means to get the work done. To even think that they deserve more than the people who are responsible for creating work for them is utterly delusional.
And Obama said it right. These are the same class of people who will cling to guns and religion if things don't work out. If GM fails, all of these UAW labor class folks will be thronging to churches and coddling their guns.
Just checking your November figures. I got 361,000 B3 and 332,000 for the Japanese. When you add the rest of the imports it tips to foreign preference over Domestic by about 70,000 units. That means the big 3 are selling less than 50% of US auto sales.
Here is the question. How many of the import sales was in protest to the way the Big 3 management and their thug UAW leaders have approached this bailout?
Bob, that was my point. I work in Providence, RI. There are 3 Providences; the toney East Side, home to Brown University, "Downcity" where the business district is, and the rest of the city, which ranges from lower middle class to slums. But I live in Bristol, which is a world away, even though I'm 15 miles from Prov. I would NEVER move to Prov. Too many problems.
I would assume that most people who work in Detroit for the Big 3 live elsewhere, where property taxes may be lower, and the neighborhoods worlds better. but I assume that the property values would be higher, thus comparing more favorable to Huntsville. And income taxes......well.
I may not make sense, but I don't have a law degree either. Just a humble phone guy of 40. Maybe I've eaten too much lead in my career.
".....Your total lack of understanding of what the middle class represents is showing. Most of the middle class do not make near $100k+ per year that many UAW workers make. The median income is more like $45k per year. The NON working UAW member in the jobs bank makes more than that per year."
If they're raking in $100K, then they must be working TONS of OT. I make more than that, and won't come close to $100K
Comments
You can believe that if you like. We were building war ships and war materials all during the 1930s. The late 1930s was the beginning of the UAW. They were founded well into FDRs administration. Was dissent and labor abuses part of the FDR legacy?
Your wrong assessment of the Reagan years is noted. As a working stiff I did much better after Reagan took office than during the Democrat controlled Congress from JFK through Carter. Nixon was a non entity to the working man. Congress ran the domestic end of the country and just about buried US in over bearing taxes. After Reagan got in and people were expected to work for a living it was tough on the featherbedders in the US auto industry. I think the consensus here is the Big 3 and the UAW built crappy cars pretty much from 1970s through the present. Not all can be blamed on the UAW. The workmanship on the cars can and that shows up in much of what was built.
I find it funny that we see history from a totally different perspective. I from a middle class hardworking Union man and you from? I was raised in a close to poverty Christian home. We would not think of asking for government help even when there was no food in our home. Democrats & welfare were dirty words in my childhood home. They both denoted people too lazy to work. No work, no eat...... I liked to eat so I worked from the time I was very young. I was not brought up to think because I was born in America I was entitled to anything but the freedom to go out and make a living.
If your about to lose your home and or car, do you call the insurance company and demand they lower your premiums? Can you call the tax office and demand they lower your assessment?
Your case that the UAW is responsible for the Big Three's business failure is silly. If one can see that this an entire industry/economy suffering, its self evident that the UAW has been an asset over the years and out sold imports as a whole. There was more meat on the arguement of AIG at SPA's and bonuses. This is but a political witch hunt and grand standing. 700 billion and the executive office illegaly rewriting the tax code to support a non union industry reeks of the rats they are. Labor supported Obama and therefore labor has a special relationship. Just as big business had with GW and Company.
Why are 50% of the domestic producers financially successful? They just happen to be the 50% that are not UAW. You call the UAW an asset. I think they were an asset in the early days, but greed has now destroyed an entire industry. The foreign nameplates had no such boat anchor and are successful. Even the domestic makes are successful outside this country. They are building new plants away from UAW influence and importing a higher percentage of their product.
I went to a parochial school in Chicago (is that Christian?), we weren't racist. Nor do we label all people by political association. We prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and thereby see their real character. As Jesus put it "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me". Wave the flag you want, my daddy's coffin was draped by that flag. Patriotism doesn't mean that you must support unjust wars and or brutal murder of helpless people. The true patriots were those who opposed the Vietnam war and hastened its end.
Last I looked Toyota stock was at a 52 week low. Half price. You are delusional if you consider that successful. Nothing they build appeals to me, it must be basic transportation for the masses.
The Cadillac CTS is UAW Michigan and the hottest car out there. Show me a Toyota that even in the same class as a VETT. Solstice/Sky are killing the two seater market. Have you been looking at cars lately? I did like the two seater Lexus, but the price is outrageous. Other than that their cars are fugly. You have to go look at BMW to get anything better than the American hot sellers.
Republicans made become an endangered species within four years. No dimples or chads this past election. Just folks speaking their minds. It wasn't even close.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner "earned" $9.3 million in salary and bonus in 2006, nearly double what he "earned" in 2005.
While UAW members finish voting on a new contract with General Motors that includes a cost-of-living freeze, union negotiators have moved on to Chrysler, with Ford Motor (F) next.
Chrysler's new CEO, Bob Nardelli, became a symbol of corporate excess when he left Home Depot early this year with a $210 million severance package. Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you blaming laissez-faire (not "laizze-fair", whatever that is) capitalism for the onset of the Depression? If you are, you should know that many economists would fault the Fed for keeping interest rates too low during the boom years of the late 1920s & then boosting rates after the 1929 market crash.
Even if you don't think that Fed fumbling caused the Depression, you have to agree with almost every economist, Republican or Democrat, that sharp tariff increases, triggered by the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Act, dramatically deepened & lengthened the downturn. After we raised tariffs to keep out imports & protect our manufacturers, every other industrial country followed suit. As a result, global trade dried up & factories all over the world shut down. Bad government policy, not "greedy businessmen", transformed what would otherwise have been a 2-year recession into the legendary Great Depression.
We actually were well out of the depression long before we entered WW2, Thanks to FDR.
Not if you look at the unemployment numbers. Note that the unemployment rate in 1928, the last full year before the Depression began, was 4.2%. By contrast, the rate in 1940, which was the last year of FDR's 2nd term, was 14.6% - more than 3 times higher. Not until the wartime year of 1942 (Pearl Harbor was bombed in December, 1941) did unemployment approach the 1928 level.
U.S. Unemployment Rates: 1920-2007
Clearly, the war effort put far more people back to work than FDR's New Deal programs did. Indeed, you could go a step further & argue, as I would, that WWII - not the New Deal - laid the groundwork for the prosperity that we enjoyed for the next 30 years.
So why was the reason to enact the Sherman Anti Trust Act? To imprison Eugene Debs? Is this the Darwinism of capitalism?
I agree that any spending, which tariffs would hinder, fueling the economy, therefore social spending/public works must also fuel the economy. If you were alive then social spending was tabu. However, spending on the war machine allowed those robber barons profit, hence it was OK then. The American were on rations and sacrificing. The corporations were doing their part too, making money from the war.
GM has wasted hundreds of billions $$$ on the payroll of people who never should have had jobs to begin with...It would be like a Mom & Pop hardware store in a small town, where, instead of 2-4 employees, they had 50 and wondered why they can't make any money...GM should have jettisoned thousands of middle managers whose sole job was to aggravate those below them and push worthless paper forms around to look busy...
The only shame is that those workers about to be jettisoned have made their lives around GM (Ford, too) but they will become the casualties of war...however, rather than see them for what they lost, you could also say that they had some mighty fat years in a job that never should have been created from the beginning...
The automakers will now slim down to become half its size...Michigan will slowly work thru this but will still become a ghost town compared to what it was, and what ti was was an overemployed money waster...
Kinda like a school system which grows from 1000 to 2000 students...you hire new teachers for the growing student body, but once the "boom class" graduates and the school shrinks back to 1000, you can eliminate the extra teachers as they are unnecessary...cruel to the teachers???...maybe, but when a system does not need you, it is criminal to keep somebody on payroll solely because "they have been there"...for the system it is an evolution, for the individual it is a revolution...
The workers will be eliminated as they simply are no longer needed...the re-training they will be offered will be charity from us, but they better get motivated as there is no time to shed tears, life goes on...
Monday of this week I spoke to the other lawyers in my office, saying that the Big 3 must go Chapter 11 now, to junk all their unnecessary debt and contracts...they ALL reminded me about the "ripple effect" to which I replied that the ripple effect does not matter, we cannot pay people to make (Big 3) cars that no one wants to buy...that was Monday...
Today, after hearing that the UAW will not budge an inch until 2011, despite the possibility of bankruptcy, they ALL came in and said that the UAW can go to hell, and they ALL said that GM/Ford should file for bankruptcy TODAY and stick in up the UAW's collective behind...
As time goes on, the whole UAW strategy may backfire, as folks who make much less than a UAW member may become quite resentful about buying a car made by someone who makes much more than they do...few cared while times were good, but now that the UAW is front and center on the news, even the average guy may get fed up...
Then there really only WILL be 2 people who will buy Big 3...lemko and rockylee...
Clearly, the war effort put far more people back to work than FDR's New Deal programs did. Indeed, you could go a step further & argue, as I would, that WWII - not the New Deal - laid the groundwork for the prosperity that we enjoyed for the next 30 years.
They have doctored the unemployment rate, just as they have doctored the CPI (consumer price index). Its like comparing the steroid ball players of today to those of by gone eras. The rules of even baseball have been changed. Mounds lowered after the last 30 game winner, designated hitter, and many more.
To conclude that Nixon era inflation was prosperity is insanity. S&L bail outs by Reagan. You just have to define prosperity and find the real driver in these metrics. I can argue and will argue that unions, which include the UAW, are responsible for the largest middle class in history. Free trade, pollute all you want zones like Hong Kong envy our middle class, as does China and their exploitation of workers, child labor, and God knows what else.
I feel an executive order from our commander and chief, President Obama.
You've lost me, my friend. Are you PWI'ing again? My previous post was a response to points that you had made about the New Deal - specifically about how New Deal programs had purportedly pulled the economy out of the Depression. But the Sherman Act was passed in 1890, more than 40 years earlier, & is thus unrelated to the earlier discussion. If there's a point buried in this post, I'm afraid that I don't see it.
It looks like the UAW is making a stand. They are tired of making all the concessions while the management fat cats who have managed the company poorly get rich. Seems like a reasonable position to me. Let the management fat cats take cuts to their salary/benefits in order to save the company.
Alternatively, maybe the UAW president has been in touch with some politicians who have assured him a bailout is coming so he comes out firing in order to take the initiative. Negotiating 101.
I'm so tired of all this non sense about the autoworkers making Joe the plumber money. Say is isn't so Joe?
Even I would oppose it if the company I was working for is a private organization. The owners can cook the books in whatever fashion they like and the labor has to suffer.
But in a publicly held company where the CEO is also paid performance bonus, all the employees should be given a bonus on the same standard. By the way, the fortune 500 company my wife works for, and one which has not made a loss yet, but still sold off the corporate jets as the markets deteriorated, has performance based bonus across all employees, which is based upon how much profit the company made. She can get anywhere from 5 to 10%. This time around she is looking at 2% at the most.
cooter, I do seem to like your quotes and have a blast responding to them...even if I don't make any sense...:):):)
Detroit is a slum, plain and simple...it was like that when I went there in 1980 and even worse when I left in 1990...stupid damn mayors all screamed racism, when they only had to look in the mirror to understand why working people of ALL races were deserting the town like a tornado just struck...lousy management and some of the highest taxes around...a mere $60K home had taxes around $2-3K, and what you got for your money was affirmative action of the worst incompetent people available...
The best way to see Detroit is in your rear view mirror...I defy ANYONE to find anything good to say about the City of Detroit, and rocky doesn't count...:):):)
The war removed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of (mostly) men from the US job market and sent them overseas to fight, and many of them were simply killed and permanently removed from possible job rolls...the war took our citizens in the prime of their lives and sent them out of the country...those that remained were working on the war effort...by the time the survivors came back in 1945, I am quite sure that the available pool of workers was much smaller than it was from 1935-1941...that is another way to alter employment, have a large portion of the workers simply killed as casualties of war...cruel thinking???...yes, but that does not change the fact that many potential job takers were permanently removed from the job rolls thanks to D-Day and other battles of WWII...
They shall, however, ALWAYS be remembered as heroes who gave the ultmate sacrifice, but they were removed from the employment rolls nonetheless...
U forgot dallasdude1. I believe he is associated with the GM plant in Arlington. Maybe not.
"Walk softly and carry a big stick"...you may quote me on that as marsha7...oh no, it's Joe Biden!!!...I'm caught plagiarizing again...
You lost me. Is that good or bad performance or both?
>You lost me. Is that good or bad performance or both?
r u even serious? For a knowledgeable guy like you, this question is quite unexpected. Of course it is both. Bad performance? No Bonus + No salary raise.
Good performance? Salary Raise + Bonus.
Yeah, right, sure.
You can keep shoveling this stuff, but don't tell us that you actually believe it.
The UAW has been a problem for decades
Time Magazine
Detroit's Uphill Battle
By Alexander Taylor;Christopher Redman;Barrett Seaman Monday, Sep. 08, 1980
Detroit's labor force abetted the industry's slide into decline. Work was often sloppy. Cars built on Mondays and Fridays were frequently defective because high absenteeism meant the job was done by less experienced fill-ins. Workers at GM's notorious Lordstown, Ohio, plant rebelled at attempts to streamline production in the early '70s and brought the factory to a halt. The United Auto Workers union did little to stem the erosion of productivity. In an attempt to win ever higher wages no matter what the product, the U.A.W. went along with the automakers' insistence on quantity over quality. It failed to push for better working conditions or lower absenteeism, which would have reduced assembly line foulups. Wrote New York Times Labor Reporter William Serrin in his book The Company and the Union: "The union is aware of the problems of absenteeism and tardiness and shoddy workmanship, but whatever it does in this area must be done with great tact, if anything is done at all."
Let's skip to 1997
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE4DC103AF934A15752C0A96195826- - 0&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Close to 4,100 workers went on strike against the General Motors Corporation late Saturday night at a huge sport utility vehicle assembly plant in Moraine, Ohio, the fourth big strike against the world's largest auto maker in less than a year.
The International Union of Electronics Workers ordered the strike at midnight on Saturday after workers voted on Friday night against ratification of a new labor agreement that their leaders had concluded earlier in the week. The pact was controversial because it included a new program designed to penalize workers with high rates of absenteeism.
Jeffrey S. Kuhlman, a G.M. spokesman, said that the company had agreed to drop the absenteeism program at 7 P.M. on Saturday, but that the union had proceeded with the strike anyway.
Now let's fast forward to 2007:
UAW GM REPORT
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm14.php
Changes in Attendance Procedure
Changes in the Special Procedure for Attendance
There was considerable discussion about the union’s insistence on preserving jobs and obtaining new work in the current highly competitive environment and the company’s concern for continued reduction in absenteeism . As a result, changes have been negotiated in the existing Special Procedure for Attendance.
Not sure what it has to do with the UAW. Yes last year I filed a form to get my home assessment lowered and they did. My home is now appraised for taxes $100,000 less. Saved me $1200 this year.
Given the same facts, one could argue just as convincingly that government screwups have done vastly more damage than unregulated free markets.
The UAW created the great middle class and consumerism we enjoy today.
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. The U.S. had a large & flourishing middle class by the late 1800s - years before Henry Ford started building cars & decades before the UAW was even born. What gave rise to the American middle class was post-Civil War industrialization. All those new factories required not just laborers to man the assembly lines but an entirely new class of office workers: clerks, secretaries, accountants, engineers, salesmen & managers. These people made up the new American middle class.
By 1890 - long before most Americans had even seen an automobile - the middle class as we know it today was firmly in place. The strongest claim that you can validly make is that the UAW made it possible for some blue collar workers to enjoy a white collar standard of living. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but it's a long, long way from saying that the UAW "created" the middle class, which simply isn't true.
The UAW cannot even claim that distinction. The Teamsters of which I spent 37 years a member far pre dates the johnny come lately UAW. The only thing the UAW will have on its tombstone is they managed to destroy the US Domestic Automakers. They are currently a very small Union with less than 400k members and dwindling very fast.
Their little blip in the History books will probably note how in 2008 the UAW would rather the automakers go bankrupt than to give up anything to keep the industry afloat. Arrogant fools is all you can say about the UAW management. The members are just sheep.
Most people would say Toyota is extremely successful - they have become the world's #1 automaker, a title they took from GM. They may suffer some in a down economy, but they have money in reserve and they are not begging for handouts. I'd call that successful.
The Cadillac CTS is UAW Michigan and the hottest car out there. Show me a Toyota that even in the same class as a VETT. Solstice/Sky are killing the two seater market. Have you been looking at cars lately? I did like the two seater Lexus, but the price is outrageous. Other than that their cars are fugly. You have to go look at BMW to get anything better than the American hot sellers.
There are some good American hot sellers. Problem is that there are even more turds mixed in. Trim out all of the turds and there's a good market. Problem is that for GM that is less than half current size. I'd agree with you - prune all the junk, downsize the company and dealers commensurate with the good product only, and what is left is the start of a successful and viable company.
I'll repeat a previous question - Why are 50% of the auto makers in the US successful, and that 50% is the half that is NOT UAW?
111000 more car sales by the D3 than J3. You keep calling that 252000 outvotes 363000. It doesn't and that makes everything you say false.
Lots of successful companies have a stock price that is half what it was 12 mos. ago. How many manufacturing stocks are up this year?
I do agree with Dallasdude, that Toyota has very little that appeals to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota losses money this year, but before the credit crunch, they were very profitable and increasing market share. Regardless of whether you like their product, that pretty much describes successful in my mind.
Their small percentage of defenders reflected in the above mentioned 3, is truly an inside look at public opinion.
The masses don't feel sorry, or have much in common with the UAW mindset. They need to go away, so something better can spring up in it's place.
That is exactly right. The UAW is not representing the Middle Class in America. It is representing a Union that believes its workers deserve to be paid when they are not producing. It is a Union that believes they are entitled to a certain standard of living even when the company is broke. There are a lot of good Unions and Union people. The UAW is not one of them.
If you can believe Gettlefinger a non union Toyota worker makes more than a UAW worker. So why would the Toyota worker want to be enslaved by the UAW?
Well, at least Nissan is still in the game with the 350Z and the GT-R.
My choice for President Duncan Hunter wanted to do that. Mr Obama is for making them legal citizens with full voting rights. They will jump right into those jobs left vacant when the UAW contracts get voided. Then they will buy all the foreclosed homes in Detroit at pennies on the dollar and it will be the dawning of a new age in Michigan. They may even keep Buick around for your driving pleasure. Old Buicks are very popular with Latinos in my area.
Last week, Moody's Economy.com economist Mark Zandi suggested during one of the auto bailout hearings on Capitol Hill that the Big Three could need between $75 billion to $125 billion over the next two years if they are to survive.
He predicted that even if the government approves the $34 billion loan package, the automakers would be back to Washington later in 2009 asking for additional help.
That's because he thinks U.S. auto sales will remain weak well into 2010, due to problems in the economy and the bubble in auto sales from earlier in the decade.
In his testimony, Zandi said he estimates the entire auto industry would have to shut down production for nearly a year to work off the excess cars and light trucks that were sold during the bubble years.
$34B just a small start
I know, you know better than Zandi. :P
Regards,
OW
That would be much closer to my guess. And even then GM will need to whittle costs a bunch to make money. If GM lost $38 billion last year with 16 million cars sold. What will they lose with only 10 million sold? We are getting lied to big time. No different than CA latest boondoggle. Getting a hi speed rail system past the voters telling them it will be only $10 billion. When the truth is it will be at least $90 billion before a single run from LA to SF is completed.
But I have to say, their rail system(called MARTA) in that eastern city(farthest east I have ever been)was really pretty useful, easy-to-operate, and efficient. Rail is still something that can have some goodness to it, esp. in a large, urban setting. They really use it there in Atlanta.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
When asked to be competitive with Japanese assembly wages the UAW would not promise anything at all. They refused to allow a date for that to be set.
Most auto parts going into GM cars are made by $10 an hour factory workers in small towns around the Midwest and Mid-south. There is nothing to give there. Half of those companies are near bankruptcy already.
UAW wage of $28 an hour.
New college grads with mechanical, electrical, industrial, or manufacturing engineering degrees no longer recruited into $26 an hour jobs at the D3. There are just layoffs coming and a hiring freeze. Not much to give there.
I guess Gettlefinger thinks an engineer should give up $10 an hour and then make $12 less than a H.S. grad.
Result: president will give bridge loan to D3 and it will get us to the new congress session in Feb. to resume negotiations. Suppliers owed money will get 30 cents on the dollar. GM will make all their managers back into engineers. UAW will retain upper middle class incomes and black magic will be brought in to make the D3 competitive. How else can a $12 an hour excess UAW labor cost, 650,000 retirees pensions and health care, and inability to hire new blood into the design side be offset when you have to compete with the transplants? What of these would replacing Wagoner change?
I listened to a salaried engineer with 33 years at GM. He claimed it was standard procedure for him to work 60 hours most weeks. No OT or comp time. Every time the UAW got raises the engineers got cut back a bit. He has no sympathy for the UAW workers and would just as soon see GM go bankrupt as to continue coddling the UAW. I think if all the UAW contracts were canceled tomorrow GM would be able to borrow all the money they need to restructure. No one with an ounce of sense would lend money with the restrictive contracts the UAW have in place at GM.
The police and firefighters union is great too. And they don't produce a thing. Idle most of the time 24/7 and getting paid. More power to my brothers/sisters in uniform.
The UAW is the very reason there is the biggest middle class ever in history.
Your total lack of understanding of what the middle class represents is showing. Most of the middle class do not make near $100k+ per year that many UAW workers make. The median income is more like $45k per year. The NON working UAW member in the jobs bank makes more than that per year.
Why would you think that less than 400k UAW workers represent anything but a handful of over paid featherbedders? If the Big 3 was making large profits the UAW could justify the wages. Truth is GM has not made a decent profit in 40 years. GM has been skimming from every segment of the company to feed this UAW monster on their back. It has been draining their resources to the point they now have to beg the lower paid REAL middle class to support their addiction. GM needs a 12 step program to rid themselves of this blight on the auto industry. A cancer they have fed for all these years by signing away the future of the company with unsustainable UAW contracts.
You are getting delusional my friend.
GM, Ford and Chrysler are the reason for the middle class. Not UAW.
I don't know what these pea brained laborers think of themselves. Barely able to finish school and want the pay of an engineer or more? Get real.
There is, and always will be an intelligent class of people, and a labor class.
The sole purpose of the labor class is to do the bidding of the intelligent class.
Sounds rude? I think so myself. But that is reality.
The intelligent class of people create the business/work. The labor class only provides the means to get the work done. To even think that they deserve more than the people who are responsible for creating work for them is utterly delusional.
And Obama said it right. These are the same class of people who will cling to guns and religion if things don't work out. If GM fails, all of these UAW labor class folks will be thronging to churches and coddling their guns.
Just checking your November figures. I got 361,000 B3 and 332,000 for the Japanese. When you add the rest of the imports it tips to foreign preference over Domestic by about 70,000 units. That means the big 3 are selling less than 50% of US auto sales.
Here is the question. How many of the import sales was in protest to the way the Big 3 management and their thug UAW leaders have approached this bailout?
Bob, that was my point. I work in Providence, RI. There are 3 Providences; the toney East Side, home to Brown University, "Downcity" where the business district is, and the rest of the city, which ranges from lower middle class to slums. But I live in Bristol, which is a world away, even though I'm 15 miles from Prov. I would NEVER move to Prov. Too many problems.
I would assume that most people who work in Detroit for the Big 3 live elsewhere, where property taxes may be lower, and the neighborhoods worlds better. but I assume that the property values would be higher, thus comparing more favorable to Huntsville. And income taxes......well.
I may not make sense, but I don't have a law degree either. Just a humble phone guy of 40. Maybe I've eaten too much lead in my career.
If they're raking in $100K, then they must be working TONS of OT. I make more than that, and won't come close to $100K