I agree that in the future many of these no value added businesses have to reform. Real estate, seems like a logical choice too. Concepts of touch labor/value added are coming from the east. The winds change. JIT -just in time- could be a concept where its being built the second you order it.
There are better out there and its no secret that ours isn't even in the top ten.
Maybe you could clue US in on which countries that might be. Kings and leaders from the UK, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Iran & Jordan have come to get the best the World has to offer from US. No it is not cheap and mostly overpriced. Still it is leading edge health care. No insurance, and you want a good low cost hip replacement go to India or Thailand. Same for many types of standard procedures.
If you have UAW health care now you would not be happy with any of the Nationalized plans around the World. They are slow and over crowded with only certain issues they will treat.
That's okay. We'll use your money for the big insurance companies, stock broker/speculator companies, and the banks that are using it to buy up other banks instead of lending it.
They may have to accept some pain to do their share to help bring costs in line for the US to compete with the transplants that we allowed here.
I think for someone in the middle of the Big 3 area you have the best perspective of how the demise of GM will affect you and yours in Ohio. You also are not so blind as to see that the sins of the UAW and the Big 3 management have finally caught up with them. The UAW will need to give DRASTIC Concessions to salvage their jobs. That means less for the workers and retirees. Those people that retired at 50 with a huge retirement and paid health care may be standing at the entrance of WalMart like 1000s of other older people.
banks that are using it to buy up other banks instead of lending it.
Much of the bailout money was given to big banks to buyout smaller banks that were on the verge of folding. Like Washington Mutual getting bought by JP Morgan. Some of the bank failures occurred due to the ignorance of Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid making comments on the health of different banks. When a high level person says bank ABC is in trouble, people pull their money out. Even if the bank is doing ok it can be brought down by too many people withdrawing funds that are loaned out. Schumer directly destroyed IndyMac with his stupid comment.
An important angle in the IndyMac failure that may get lost in ominous headlines tonight and tomorrow: federal regulators pointedly cited U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., in explaining the bank's failure. In simple language, federal regulators blamed Schumer for a run on the bank.
someone posted the number of workers active and the number of retirees and spouses for the three companies, and GM was way overloaded with retirees per worker. Something has to give. Are all those from Delphi (Delco) in the past? I suspect lots of those took retirement early along with GM line workers.
That's okay. We'll use your money for the big insurance companies, stock broker/speculator companies, and the banks that are using it to buy up other banks instead of lending it.
Nope. I've never subscribed to the nutty notion that it's somehow OK to bail out one business category (car makers, for example) & yet not OK to bail out a different category (banks/brokers/insurance companies).
All bailouts stink of socialism & are downright anti-American. I guess I'm just old fashioned in that respect.
I'm in favor of manufacturing over the money-changers in the temples being subsidized.
We've been subsidizing farmers for over 70 years. Look how well that's worked out. Chances are that our great-grandchildren will be paying for farm subsidies 70 years from now.
Where does it end?
Saying that one subsidy is somehow better than another is like saying that one venereal disease is better than another. Subsidies are symptomatic of the left-wing entitlement mentality that threatens to cripple us. They're all wrong.
It's time for real Americans to stand up for free markets. Subsidies are welfare payments for businesses that can't stand up on their own.
g wrote : "Much of the bailout money was given to big banks to buyout smaller banks that were on the verge of folding. Like Washington Mutual getting bought by JP Morgan. Some of the bank failures occurred due to the ignorance of Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid making comments on the health of different banks. When a high level person says bank ABC is in trouble, people pull their money out. Even if the bank is doing ok it can be brought down by too many people withdrawing funds that are loaned out. Schumer directly destroyed IndyMac with his stupid comment. " That would be an affirmative sir, Financial hysteria is most expensive as we are finding out. As Rome burned in the last week of September/ first week of October our august congressmen debated as the house was burning who would throw the first bucket of water. Main St, Wall St, whatever, 700b seems cheap now eh? Urgency was paramount but sadly lacking. Besides Schumer might I add idiots (R) Shelby, Alabama, Chairman of the house banking and finance committee ( 100 banks are going to fail no matter what we do) as well as weasel Harry Reid (D) Nevada ( there is a major insurance company on the verge of bankruptcy. In the afternoon he stated I was using insurance as a metaphor, for what? Insurance ? Imadizol97, it seems to be a question, often assumed that bankruptcy would negate the power of the UAW. I have not seen a definitive answer to this. Or does the status quo remain the same and the UAW accepts employment cuts with nothing changing in the equation ? Bankruptcy lawyers feel free to chime in.
It's time for real Americans to stand up for free markets. Subsidies are welfare payments for businesses that can't stand up on their own.
We have become a country of coddled weaklings. Cannot stand the sight of blood. Well there is a blood bath in the making. Congress is trying to stop the hemhoraging and It is only making it worse. What do they know about running a profitable business?
I don't see GM being saved. They have lost too much blood. The UAW has waited until the patient has stopped breathing. Don't expect the low paid middle class to give you all mouth to mouth.
The winds change. JIT -just in time- could be a concept where its being built the second you order it.
To make this UAW-relevant, if a company is totally constrained in its flexibility by 2200 page contracts, then competitors without those constraints will eat their lunch.
Using the Apple analogy, Steve Jobs put out an MP3 player. Ho hum, those were already on the market. But Apple added a *store*, added integral *synchronization*, later added *podcasts*, added *ipod-docks for cars*, etc.
People laughed when Apple opened its first retail stores. Dell tried and failed. Gateway tried and failed. Apple rewrote the entire experience - no cash registers. Many copies of every product for you to play with. Well maintained, always working. Lots of staff. Apple stores sell almost double the $$/square foot that other retailers do!
That's why I'm saying we should rethink the auto buying experience. Why carry all of that inventory? It's costly and encourages overproduction. It takes up tons of space at dealerships. Why don't the dealers drive your new car to your house? Why not only have a few cars with all samples of options and colors? Would the union agreements prevent this? In addition to reworking the product side of the house, where is the innovation? We live in the age of the internet, why can't you track your car coming to the dealer online? Etc. I don't know what the answer may be, but where is the innovation? Do we need to wait for Honda or Toyota to do this, too?
I read your description of Apple stores with interest. I didn't find that in the Apple stores in this area. I found a store which depended on devotees to support it. Overpriced. Underpowered. Lack of software because of lack of numbers. lack of freeware/shareware software because of lack of numbers of boxes to support having them.
Still Apple Mac jolted the IBM world with their abilities in select areas, such as graphic handling and video. Amazingly when Mac III was around and the PowerMac, the powerhouse area PC everything store (Microcenter) was using Macs to make up their advertising pages for their PCs which were supposed to be a better computer--my point on the niche use of the Mac.
Interestingly at a national competition for high schools in Indy recently, the company doing the videos of the high schools' performances does them on a Mac based on info in the video files on the disk I was perusing.
All of this niche idea can work for cars, but it takes volume to make money, so we're back to the PC sales type of cars.
Just listened to a Republican senator? and he is very unhappy that the UAW is not giving up anything. Yes, they say they will come to the table but have not agreed to any concessions or even to say they will get close to what the imports pay.
dallasdude1: So they can run a car company, but don't have a clue as to a health care system. Is our health care system the best in the world?
There are better out there and its no secret that ours isn't even in the top ten.
The "surveys" that supposedly make the U.S. health care system look bad are often based on junk research.
My favorite example is the infant mortality rate, which is supposedly worse in the U.S. than in other countries. Only problem is that the U.S. makes more efforts to save premature babies, or those born with serious problems, and those are included in the U.S. infant mortality rate when they die after living for more than one day.
Other countries do not make those efforts, and let them die immediately, and therefore don't include those births and deaths in infant mortality rates.
Heck, I use AT&T Worldnet as my ISP and Netscape as my browser.
If the Big Three go under, that simply means even fewer choices. My brother-in-law even stated that he doesn't want to get stuck having to buy a (censored) Toyota the next time he goes to buy a new truck.
Congress will bail them out. We all know that. The UAW, as we have seen, will learn nothing and give up nothing. They will ultimately kill the goose. Additionally, people are going to look at the new after-bailout GM cars with a more critical eye.
We bailed them out for this s#$%t?
Dealers are going to start hearing things like:
"Shoot, you should give me a better deal - I already paid you $1000 towards this car through my taxes"
So I don't think the fat lady is going to sing but she IS going to hum a few bars in preparation for her upcoming performance
Even without a bailout, the idea that all three American automakers will collapse is simply not true.
Ford will probably survive.
GM will be viable once it restructures and eliminates unnecessary divisions (Pontiac, Saturn and Saab), dealers and workers.
Chrysler is basically a goner at this point - even the senators at the hearing seem to accept that - and the good parts (Jeep, minivans, Ram pickups) will be picked up by other automakers.
If Chrysler went away it would benefit Ford and, to a lesser extent, GM. Many of those "domestic-only buyers" who bought Chryslers, Dodges and Jeeps would have no choice but to go to Ford and GM.
>I would bet that a large percentage of cars are bought on the day a buyer goes to the dealer...
Agreed. But I wonder if the person has the itch to buy a car, he/she will pick out the best that meets his/her requirements, which may not be 100%. Got the Tech pkg, but not in red color. We got one in Black or Blue. I suspect he/she will pick up the Black one or the Red one without the tech1 pkg.
"During the government bailout of Chrysler three decades ago, the UAW's national president had a seat on the carmaker's board that ended when the bailout arrangement was over, said Harley Shaiken, a University of California, Berkeley professor that closely follows the union. But the union has never sought a direct ownership stake in one of the Detroit Big Three, Shaiken said.
"It's not clear if they want both an equity stake and a seat on the board, because they are two separate things," Shaiken said. "If this report is true, it means the UAW wants the opportunity to argue their case from many positions."
Right. But that is after it got clubbed for years by Dell. It finally managed to follow in Dell's footsteps (read business model) and regain its market.
HP outsold Dell 5-1 in the link Steve put up. I configured my HP laptop. You just order online or order from a comuter at the local Office Depot, etc.
We had bought Dell several years back at our place. The support was English at first but then I kept hearing people complain about the poor customer service and difficulty understanding them. But we got business level support from what I could tell so we we getting better service than the retail consumer..
Now I love the chat support HP has. I helped friends with an Acer within the last year and support for that was nonexistent. I know I spent more time trying to find the answers online and never got an email response. No phone help IIRC.
>HP outsold Dell 5-1 in the link Steve put up. I configured my HP laptop. You just order online or order from a comuter at the local Office Depot, etc.
I don't disagree on the latest numbers. But fact is, and relevant to the original discussion, is that you do not need to stock all your car models in every color and option to sell one. DELL started the business model of selling by configure-to-order online, and beat HP/IBM combined. Now that very same model is used by HP to beat DELL. I really am not concerned as to who is the market leader, but which business model is the market leader.
I disagree with the broad brush that it doesn't not take volume to make money for the Big 3.
I thought you were speaking generically. For the D3, they don't even make money WITH volume, which is why they need to be restructured. Toyota/Honda make money. GM/Ford/Chrysler do not. Volume is not the relevant part of the equation.
I just blame the earlier woes on Carly Fiorina, but thanks for getting us back on topic. Someone will surely mention the UAW, if just in passing, any minute now.
I think McCain mentioned his favorite car was a UAW built Caddy. Or was it a Corvette. He probably has at least a couple of each.
So do I understand the bailout as proposed? Some yet to be named person will dole out the money after concessions and a plan is offered? So if the UAW refuses to take a pay cut no money for GM?
The GM pension fund is well financed. The fly in the ointment is health care for the retirees. I thought someone posted that health care for retirees ends 1/1/09? They are on their own starting next year.
I think hourly does also but not sure of the timing. Also was dependent on a large GM payment into a fund which is being allowed to be delayed by the UAW.
GM had 100 billion in the pension fund a few months ago. Think I read it is about 80 billion now.
GM could get the money they need IF they were allowed to reduce pension payments.
edit here it is:
The UAW is scheduled to take over responsibility for providing health benefits to more than 700,000 members and dependents January 1, 2010. Union president Ron Gettelfinger rallied UAW members to support the VEBA in 2007 by saying it would secure retiree health care benefits for the next 80 years. Ghilarducci says that given the current state of the industry, there is a “low probability” that the fund will last that long. Current retirees’ health care benefits were not in doubt, however. “I’m convinced that current retirees won’t lose a penny,” she said. “If there are tradeoffs, we’ll trade the future generations for the current generation.”
The total value of the health care trust is to be about $60 billion, with GM providing around $33 billion, Ford roughly $15 billion and Chrysler about $9 billion. Each company will fund and manage the VEBA separately until 2010, after which the UAW will keep the funds for each company’s retirees separate.
Part of the VEBA is to be funded by the deferral of a 3 percent wage increase for current UAW workers. Layoffs of union workers, however, could reduce the amount paid into the VEBA, though the agreement with the UAW had some provisions in place to safeguard against the possibility of layoffs.
What are the odds that none of the B3 have that much cash set aside for VEBA?
I think that the Union people should be subject to the same belt tightening that the salaried employees are bearing. That only seems fair to me. Are the B3 self insured for health care? Or do they use one of the HMO providers?
So if they are able to run a surplus on autos even after all these handicaps, then they must surely be doing something right?
Ya just can't pin this one on the UAW.
The Nikkei stock market index fell more than 60 percent—from a high of 40,000 at the end of 1989 to under 15,000 by 1992. It rose somewhat during the mid-1990s on hopes that the economy would soon recover, but as the economic outlook continued to worsen, share prices again fell. The Nikkei fell below 12,000 by March 2001. Real estate prices also plummeted during the recession—by 80 percent from 1991 to 1998 (Herbener 1999).
If your argument is "Japan needs to suck in all the money to pay for its health care or its expenses" - Well, they do have a problem, the government is the most indebted government amongst all OECD countries. But for this they need to raise taxes or reduce spending in other areas
They under took a massive infrastructure rebuilding during the years of agony. Again its not a UAW problem. However, the correlation between them at that time and our nation today is eerie.
Between 1992 and 1995, Japan tried six spending programs totaling 65.5 trillion yen and cut income tax rates during 1994. In January 1998, Japan temporarily cut taxes again by 2 trillion yen. Then, in April of that year, the government unveiled a fiscal stimulus package worth more than 16.7 trillion yen, almost half of which was for public works. Again, in November 1998, another fiscal stimulus package worth 23.9 trillion yen was announced. A year later (November 1999), yet another fiscal stimulus package of 18 trillion yen was tried. Finally, in October 2000, Japan announced yet another fiscal stimulus package of 11 trillion yen. Overall during the 1990s, Japan tried 10 fiscal stimulus packages totaling more than 100 trillion yen, and each failed to cure the recession. What the spending programs have done, however, is put Japan's government in poor fiscal shape. The "on-budget" government spending has caused public debt to exceed 100 percent of GDP (highest in the G7), and even more debt is apparent when the "off-budget" sector is included.
Maybe you could clue US in on which countries that might be.
Lots of elective medical work is being done overseas too. It includes a vacation and the savings. You have google, its no secret. The rich don't go to prison and the poor don't go to hospitals, as the saying goes.
Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.
More anti American drivel from the soon to be bankrupt Press. Claiming that Canada is better than the USA is a flat out lie. My cousins moved here and became citizens last year. They say the Canadian health care system SUX..... from the NYT:
Citizens abroad often face long waits before they can get to see a specialist or undergo elective surgery. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better
As far as Germany is concerned, I could buy one heck of a Health Care plan for the additional 25% of my income they would extort. Anyone think it is better in another country should get on a plane and move.
The problem is the GOLD PLATED PLAN THE UAW has is driving GM into bankruptcy.
I got my youngest an XPS 700 and a 24 inch monitor, with the Windows media edition. That monitor has a higher resolution than HD. But its getting older by the day. Can anyone tell me what the IPhone can't do that a lap/desk top can do?
that Bankruptcy (Chapter 11, reorganization, altho also absolutely certain in a Chapter 7, liquidation) of any automaker would allow them to void their contracts...
Some say that they could void contracts and debts with suppliers, but not pensions or UAW wage agreements...while I do not have personal experience with bankruptcies that big, it is my belief that while the Court MAY force them to keep pensions, I think the presumption is still on the side of the automaker...the Court cannot make you "find" money that you don't have, so if there is no money for pensions, healthcare, or whatever, I strongly think (notice how I refuse to absoluetly commit, so that if I am wrong I can weasel out of it???...ain't lawyering wunnerful???)...that the automakers can void the agreement...unlike an individual who cannot discharge student loans, alimony or child support, the corporation is still a "legal fiction", a creation of law simply by its incorporation papers...if it is dissolved due to lack of funds, how can ANY court make them honor any agreement or pay anything, if it ceases to exist???
Let's face it...the UAW has pushed the pendulum so far that the automakers cannot make any money with labor as the variable...they simply cost too much...GM should file Chapter 11, downsize by 50%, give the dumped UAW workers a smile and a handshake, and wish them well in their next job...there are too many plants, manned by too many workers, with too restrictive job descriptions, that can be reduced by 50% overnight...
Fewer workers for lower market share for fewer cars...they need to dump about 50,000 UAW folks and move on with the hope of growing and expanding in the future...
Thanks for the 2002 article on the Japanese economy, but you didn't read the whole thing, did you?
Garrison has said, "the Austrian theory of the business cycles is a theory of the unsustainable boom. It is not a theory of depression per se." He then states, "The story of depression and recovery, which may involve reflation, devaluation, debt restructuring, and/or capital controls, is unique to each individual episode of each economy" (Garrison 2001, p. 120).
In Austrian theory, the recession is necessary, and once it sets in and bad investments are liquidated, the economy will self-correct. After 10 years, there are still no signs of economic correction. Austrian theory recognizes that time is required for economic self-correction but that the correction can only occur if the market process is allowed to work. Rothbard (2000) summarized the Austrian policy position this way:
If government wishes to alleviate, rather than aggravate, a depression, its only course is laissez-faire—to leave the economy alone. Only if there is no interference, direct or threatened, with prices, wage rates, and business liquidation will the necessary adjustment proceed with smooth dispatch. Any propping up of shaky positions postpones liquidation and aggravates unsound conditions.
Essentially it says that the reason that the problems with the Japanese economy continued so long is that the government didn't let bad businesses fail.
In short - bailing out GM is a bad idea and will lengthen the problems in the American economy. Once again, we should learn from Japan. - In this case, from their mistakes.
Comments
Fine. Just don't do it with my money.
Maybe you could clue US in on which countries that might be. Kings and leaders from the UK, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Iran & Jordan have come to get the best the World has to offer from US. No it is not cheap and mostly overpriced. Still it is leading edge health care. No insurance, and you want a good low cost hip replacement go to India or Thailand. Same for many types of standard procedures.
If you have UAW health care now you would not be happy with any of the Nationalized plans around the World. They are slow and over crowded with only certain issues they will treat.
That's okay. We'll use your money for the big insurance companies, stock broker/speculator companies, and the banks that are using it to buy up other banks instead of lending it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think for someone in the middle of the Big 3 area you have the best perspective of how the demise of GM will affect you and yours in Ohio. You also are not so blind as to see that the sins of the UAW and the Big 3 management have finally caught up with them. The UAW will need to give DRASTIC Concessions to salvage their jobs. That means less for the workers and retirees. Those people that retired at 50 with a huge retirement and paid health care may be standing at the entrance of WalMart like 1000s of other older people.
Much of the bailout money was given to big banks to buyout smaller banks that were on the verge of folding. Like Washington Mutual getting bought by JP Morgan. Some of the bank failures occurred due to the ignorance of Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid making comments on the health of different banks. When a high level person says bank ABC is in trouble, people pull their money out. Even if the bank is doing ok it can be brought down by too many people withdrawing funds that are loaned out. Schumer directly destroyed IndyMac with his stupid comment.
An important angle in the IndyMac failure that may get lost in ominous headlines tonight and tomorrow: federal regulators pointedly cited U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., in explaining the bank's failure. In simple language, federal regulators blamed Schumer for a run on the bank.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/07/feds-cite-schum.html
He along with Dodd and Frank should all be sent to jail over our economy collapse.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nope. I've never subscribed to the nutty notion that it's somehow OK to bail out one business category (car makers, for example) & yet not OK to bail out a different category (banks/brokers/insurance companies).
All bailouts stink of socialism & are downright anti-American. I guess I'm just old fashioned in that respect.
I'm in favor of manufacturing over the money-changers in the temples being subsidized.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's debatable but I just had a crash (with no BSOD), so I'm not going to push my luck, lol.
I'm just not sure why the UAW is the scapegoat for the woes of the economic downturn which has dampened demand for autos
Karl is assigning blame - he dumps 25% on the UAW and, interestingly, the dealers.
The Four Fallacies of the Domestic Automaker Bailout
We've been subsidizing farmers for over 70 years. Look how well that's worked out. Chances are that our great-grandchildren will be paying for farm subsidies 70 years from now.
Where does it end?
Saying that one subsidy is somehow better than another is like saying that one venereal disease is better than another. Subsidies are symptomatic of the left-wing entitlement mentality that threatens to cripple us. They're all wrong.
It's time for real Americans to stand up for free markets. Subsidies are welfare payments for businesses that can't stand up on their own.
"Much of the bailout money was given to big banks to buyout smaller banks that were on the verge of folding. Like Washington Mutual getting bought by JP Morgan. Some of the bank failures occurred due to the ignorance of Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid making comments on the health of different banks. When a high level person says bank ABC is in trouble, people pull their money out. Even if the bank is doing ok it can be brought down by too many people withdrawing funds that are loaned out. Schumer directly destroyed IndyMac with his stupid comment. "
That would be an affirmative sir, Financial hysteria is most expensive as we are finding out. As Rome burned in the last week of September/ first week of October our august congressmen debated as the house was burning who would throw the first bucket of water. Main St, Wall St, whatever, 700b seems cheap now eh? Urgency was paramount but sadly lacking. Besides Schumer might I add idiots (R) Shelby, Alabama, Chairman of the house banking and finance committee ( 100 banks are going to fail no matter what we do) as well as weasel Harry Reid (D) Nevada
( there is a major insurance company on the verge of bankruptcy. In the afternoon he stated I was using insurance as a metaphor, for what? Insurance ?
Imadizol97, it seems to be a question, often assumed that bankruptcy would negate the power of the UAW. I have not seen a definitive answer to this. Or does the status quo remain the same and the UAW accepts employment cuts with nothing changing in the equation ? Bankruptcy lawyers feel free to chime in.
We have become a country of coddled weaklings. Cannot stand the sight of blood. Well there is a blood bath in the making. Congress is trying to stop the hemhoraging and It is only making it worse. What do they know about running a profitable business?
I don't see GM being saved. They have lost too much blood. The UAW has waited until the patient has stopped breathing. Don't expect the low paid middle class to give you all mouth to mouth.
To make this UAW-relevant, if a company is totally constrained in its flexibility by 2200 page contracts, then competitors without those constraints will eat their lunch.
Using the Apple analogy, Steve Jobs put out an MP3 player. Ho hum, those were already on the market. But Apple added a *store*, added integral *synchronization*, later added *podcasts*, added *ipod-docks for cars*, etc.
People laughed when Apple opened its first retail stores. Dell tried and failed. Gateway tried and failed. Apple rewrote the entire experience - no cash registers. Many copies of every product for you to play with. Well maintained, always working. Lots of staff. Apple stores sell almost double the $$/square foot that other retailers do!
That's why I'm saying we should rethink the auto buying experience. Why carry all of that inventory? It's costly and encourages overproduction. It takes up tons of space at dealerships. Why don't the dealers drive your new car to your house? Why not only have a few cars with all samples of options and colors? Would the union agreements prevent this? In addition to reworking the product side of the house, where is the innovation? We live in the age of the internet, why can't you track your car coming to the dealer online? Etc. I don't know what the answer may be, but where is the innovation? Do we need to wait for Honda or Toyota to do this, too?
It's the new government program - "no automaker left behind".
Still Apple Mac jolted the IBM world with their abilities in select areas, such as graphic handling and video. Amazingly when Mac III was around and the PowerMac, the powerhouse area PC everything store (Microcenter) was using Macs to make up their advertising pages for their PCs which were supposed to be a better computer--my point on the niche use of the Mac.
Interestingly at a national competition for high schools in Indy recently, the company doing the videos of the high schools' performances does them on a Mac based on info in the video files on the disk I was perusing.
All of this niche idea can work for cars, but it takes volume to make money, so we're back to the PC sales type of cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There are better out there and its no secret that ours isn't even in the top ten.
The "surveys" that supposedly make the U.S. health care system look bad are often based on junk research.
My favorite example is the infant mortality rate, which is supposedly worse in the U.S. than in other countries. Only problem is that the U.S. makes more efforts to save premature babies, or those born with serious problems, and those are included in the U.S. infant mortality rate when they die after living for more than one day.
Other countries do not make those efforts, and let them die immediately, and therefore don't include those births and deaths in infant mortality rates.
If the Big Three go under, that simply means even fewer choices. My brother-in-law even stated that he doesn't want to get stuck having to buy a (censored) Toyota the next time he goes to buy a new truck.
Congress will bail them out. We all know that. The UAW, as we have seen, will learn nothing and give up nothing. They will ultimately kill the goose. Additionally, people are going to look at the new after-bailout GM cars with a more critical eye.
We bailed them out for this s#$%t?
Dealers are going to start hearing things like:
"Shoot, you should give me a better deal - I already paid you $1000 towards this car through my taxes"
So I don't think the fat lady is going to sing but she IS going to hum a few bars in preparation for her upcoming performance
Apple is extremely profitable at lower volume.
BMW until recently has been very profitable at lower volume.
GM has been losing money even in good times.
It does not necessarily take volume to make money.
Ford will probably survive.
GM will be viable once it restructures and eliminates unnecessary divisions (Pontiac, Saturn and Saab), dealers and workers.
Chrysler is basically a goner at this point - even the senators at the hearing seem to accept that - and the good parts (Jeep, minivans, Ram pickups) will be picked up by other automakers.
If Chrysler went away it would benefit Ford and, to a lesser extent, GM. Many of those "domestic-only buyers" who bought Chryslers, Dodges and Jeeps would have no choice but to go to Ford and GM.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Agreed. But I wonder if the person has the itch to buy a car, he/she will pick out the best that meets his/her requirements, which may not be 100%. Got the Tech pkg, but not in red color. We got one in Black or Blue. I suspect he/she will pick up the Black one or the Red one without the tech1 pkg.
The Recession is Only "Mental," Says Phil Gramm.
So true....
Wrong.
DELL leads in PC sales, and it only builds to order.
HP sold pre-configured units in B&M stores and got clubbed by DELL :sick:
Consumers Prefer HP (HPQ) Computers To Dell (DELL) 5-To-1: Analyst (Silicon Alley Insider)
In UAW news:
"During the government bailout of Chrysler three decades ago, the UAW's national president had a seat on the carmaker's board that ended when the bailout arrangement was over, said Harley Shaiken, a University of California, Berkeley professor that closely follows the union. But the union has never sought a direct ownership stake in one of the Detroit Big Three, Shaiken said.
"It's not clear if they want both an equity stake and a seat on the board, because they are two separate things," Shaiken said. "If this report is true, it means the UAW wants the opportunity to argue their case from many positions."
Gettelfinger doesn't discount reports that UAW wants a stake or board seat at GM (Detroit News)
Right. But that is after it got clubbed for years by Dell. It finally managed to follow in Dell's footsteps (read business model) and regain its market.
We had bought Dell several years back at our place. The support was English at first but then I kept hearing people complain about the poor customer service and difficulty understanding them. But we got business level support from what I could tell so we we getting better service than the retail consumer..
Now I love the chat support HP has. I helped friends with an Acer within the last year and support for that was nonexistent. I know I spent more time trying to find the answers online and never got an email response. No phone help IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't disagree on the latest numbers. But fact is, and relevant to the original discussion, is that you do not need to stock all your car models in every color and option to sell one. DELL started the business model of selling by configure-to-order online, and beat HP/IBM combined. Now that very same model is used by HP to beat DELL. I really am not concerned as to who is the market leader, but which business model is the market leader.
I thought you were speaking generically. For the D3, they don't even make money WITH volume, which is why they need to be restructured. Toyota/Honda make money. GM/Ford/Chrysler do not. Volume is not the relevant part of the equation.
So do I understand the bailout as proposed? Some yet to be named person will dole out the money after concessions and a plan is offered? So if the UAW refuses to take a pay cut no money for GM?
McClatchy and Wired are referring to the yet-unnamed car czar as an auto-crat. Gettelfinger will probably have some other names for him. :P
Unless it's Al Gore maybe.
Parts (same)
Assembly (close to the same)
overhead (we are screwed)
How would that work with bankruptcy? Bye bye checks?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think hourly does also but not sure of the timing. Also was dependent on a large GM payment into a fund which is being allowed to be delayed by the UAW.
GM had 100 billion in the pension fund a few months ago. Think I read it is about 80 billion now.
GM could get the money they need IF they were allowed to reduce pension payments.
edit here it is:
The UAW is scheduled to take over responsibility for providing health benefits to more than 700,000 members and dependents January 1, 2010. Union president Ron Gettelfinger rallied UAW members to support the VEBA in 2007 by saying it would secure retiree health care benefits for the next 80 years. Ghilarducci says that given the current state of the industry, there is a “low probability” that the fund will last that long. Current retirees’ health care benefits were not in doubt, however. “I’m convinced that current retirees won’t lose a penny,” she said. “If there are tradeoffs, we’ll trade the future generations for the current generation.”
The total value of the health care trust is to be about $60 billion, with GM providing around $33 billion, Ford roughly $15 billion and Chrysler about $9 billion. Each company will fund and manage the VEBA separately until 2010, after which the UAW will keep the funds for each company’s retirees separate.
Part of the VEBA is to be funded by the deferral of a 3 percent wage increase for current UAW workers. Layoffs of union workers, however, could reduce the amount paid into the VEBA, though the agreement with the UAW had some provisions in place to safeguard against the possibility of layoffs.
I think that the Union people should be subject to the same belt tightening that the salaried employees are bearing. That only seems fair to me. Are the B3 self insured for health care? Or do they use one of the HMO providers?
BCBS PPO/HSA
Cigna PPO/HSA
Enhanced PPO (less copays, etc, no HSA) $125/month, $1500 deductable, $4000 out of pocket max
HMO's(depends on locations)
Traditional BCBS no longer available
Ya just can't pin this one on the UAW.
The Nikkei stock market index fell more than 60 percent—from a high of 40,000 at the end of 1989 to under 15,000 by 1992. It rose somewhat during the mid-1990s on hopes that the economy would soon recover, but as the economic outlook continued to worsen, share prices again fell. The Nikkei fell below 12,000 by March 2001. Real estate prices also plummeted during the recession—by 80 percent from 1991 to 1998 (Herbener 1999).
http://mises.org/story/1099
They under took a massive infrastructure rebuilding during the years of agony. Again its not a UAW problem. However, the correlation between them at that time and our nation today is eerie.
Between 1992 and 1995, Japan tried six spending programs totaling 65.5 trillion yen and cut income tax rates during 1994. In January 1998, Japan temporarily cut taxes again by 2 trillion yen. Then, in April of that year, the government unveiled a fiscal stimulus package worth more than 16.7 trillion yen, almost half of which was for public works. Again, in November 1998, another fiscal stimulus package worth 23.9 trillion yen was announced. A year later (November 1999), yet another fiscal stimulus package of 18 trillion yen was tried. Finally, in October 2000, Japan announced yet another fiscal stimulus package of 11 trillion yen. Overall during the 1990s, Japan tried 10 fiscal stimulus packages totaling more than 100 trillion yen, and each failed to cure the recession. What the spending programs have done, however, is put Japan's government in poor fiscal shape. The "on-budget" government spending has caused public debt to exceed 100 percent of GDP (highest in the G7), and even more debt is apparent when the "off-budget" sector is included.
http://mises.org/story/1099
However, you would support them (AARP) if there was a bill on the floor to divide you entitlement by half?
Lots of elective medical work is being done overseas too. It includes a vacation and the savings. You have google, its no secret. The rich don't go to prison and the poor don't go to hospitals, as the saying goes.
Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html?pagewanted=print
If you have a rare disorder or condition, the most experienced doctor or an unusual treatment can be difficult to find and thousands of miles away.
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-best23-2008jun23,0,5001451.story
Citizens abroad often face long waits before they can get to see a specialist or undergo elective surgery. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better
As far as Germany is concerned, I could buy one heck of a Health Care plan for the additional 25% of my income they would extort. Anyone think it is better in another country should get on a plane and move.
The problem is the GOLD PLATED PLAN THE UAW has is driving GM into bankruptcy.
http://reviews.cnet.com/best-mp3-players/
But there is going to be a change coming, which will do away with the PORTABLE MP3 player and the way we store music.
Some say that they could void contracts and debts with suppliers, but not pensions or UAW wage agreements...while I do not have personal experience with bankruptcies that big, it is my belief that while the Court MAY force them to keep pensions, I think the presumption is still on the side of the automaker...the Court cannot make you "find" money that you don't have, so if there is no money for pensions, healthcare, or whatever, I strongly think (notice how I refuse to absoluetly commit, so that if I am wrong I can weasel out of it???...ain't lawyering wunnerful???)...that the automakers can void the agreement...unlike an individual who cannot discharge student loans, alimony or child support, the corporation is still a "legal fiction", a creation of law simply by its incorporation papers...if it is dissolved due to lack of funds, how can ANY court make them honor any agreement or pay anything, if it ceases to exist???
Let's face it...the UAW has pushed the pendulum so far that the automakers cannot make any money with labor as the variable...they simply cost too much...GM should file Chapter 11, downsize by 50%, give the dumped UAW workers a smile and a handshake, and wish them well in their next job...there are too many plants, manned by too many workers, with too restrictive job descriptions, that can be reduced by 50% overnight...
Fewer workers for lower market share for fewer cars...they need to dump about 50,000 UAW folks and move on with the hope of growing and expanding in the future...
And kiss the union goodbye forever...
Garrison has said, "the Austrian theory of the business cycles is a theory of the unsustainable boom. It is not a theory of depression per se." He then states, "The story of depression and recovery, which may involve reflation, devaluation, debt restructuring, and/or capital controls, is unique to each individual episode of each economy" (Garrison 2001, p. 120).
In Austrian theory, the recession is necessary, and once it sets in and bad investments are liquidated, the economy will self-correct. After 10 years, there are still no signs of economic correction. Austrian theory recognizes that time is required for economic self-correction but that the correction can only occur if the market process is allowed to work. Rothbard (2000) summarized the Austrian policy position this way:
If government wishes to alleviate, rather than aggravate, a depression, its only course is laissez-faire—to leave the economy alone. Only if there is no interference, direct or threatened, with prices, wage rates, and business liquidation will the necessary adjustment proceed with smooth dispatch. Any propping up of shaky positions postpones liquidation and aggravates unsound conditions.
Essentially it says that the reason that the problems with the Japanese economy continued so long is that the government didn't let bad businesses fail.
In short - bailing out GM is a bad idea and will lengthen the problems in the American economy. Once again, we should learn from Japan. - In this case, from their mistakes.