Much like that child who makes Nike shoes and cannot afford to buy a pair of them, we would be working for the needs of the elite class.
They get bought by the welfare people on the South Side of Chicago. I have not bought a pair of shoes made in China. I am hoping my stock of US made shoes and sandals will last the rest of my life. Some have holes in the soles. If you own a pair of shoes made in China you have no room to complain. Same goes for all those UAW workers that shop at WalMart.
New Balance, no super star endorsement, American made, and no child labor.
Almost a third of the cost of an import is put back into Japan to run such things as health care and other govt expenses.
I disagree and would like to see how you come up with that number.
The rest of the post - unions were very valuable 100 or 75 years ago. Today workers have huge safety nets and rules provided by the federal government. Unions are hurting our competitiveness rather than helping it.
Why don't you just ship the entire manufacturing base to China and get it over with? Unfortunately we can't ship out those Wally World jobs. Yeah, we require that the illegals they hire to clean out the stores not be locked inside, people be allowed to take breaks, women be given equal opportunity, and did I forget something? The geature of hiring a greeter, old or handicap isn't really necessary to keep up PR/good corporate image.
I disagree and would like to see how you come up with that number.
First, remember we still have loop holes for both people and corporations. Then too we are double taxed, somewhat in that both shareholder and corporation pay taxes. They are straight forward and thats cheap compared to Europe. Germany being the most socialist country. So, unlike Americans they aren't as wasteful. Thats a very conservative number. Nissan quoted 34%.
Japanese Corporate tax A corporation in Japan is required to file returns, pay tax and supply details of the computation of taxable income to the Japanese tax office. The place of tax payment of a domestic corporation is the place where its head or main office is located. In case of a foreign corporation, the place of the payment is where the corporation's main permanent establishment or estate in Japan is located.
For a corporation whose capital exceeds JPY 100million, a tax rate of 30% is applicable to all of the ordinary income. For a corporation whose capital amounts to JPY 100million or less, a tax rate of 22% is applicable up to JPY 8million and a tax rate of 30% to the remainder of the ordinary income.
A corporation is required to file a final tax return within 2 months after the end of its business year. A final tax return must be accompanied by the balance sheet, profit and loss statement and other documents describing items necessary for calculating its ordinary income, undistributed income and the corporation tax due.
If the ordinary income shows a net loss, the net loss can be carried forward to the five succeeding years, which is deductible from the income of each business year.
Foreign corporations, which do not have their head office in Japan are classified for tax purposes as follows:
Foreign corporations carrying on business through a branch office are subject to corporation tax on their entire income sources in Japan.
Foreign corporations carrying on business not through permanent establishments but through an agent in Japan who has the authority to conclude contracts or important activities are subject to corporation tax on the income derived from a business in Japan.
Don't blame you? You think your importance is that valuable? The Democrats pushed to help the strapped borrowers to stay in their homes be included in the bailout. Dem. Chuck Sherman, Chairman of the JOINT Economic Commitee, was a critic of the plan. Saying "Bush and his economic advisors were trying to panic lawmakers into rubber stamping it". Sound familar? all those BOMBS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?
Replying to: Most of the country sees overpaid.......
Yes, Dealer Auto mechanics do make a good salary. They get a work order for a certain repair. That repair by the hour book says this job pays say, three hrs. If the mechanic finishes the job in one hour, he gets paid for three hours, as does the Dealer. Yes warranty work is paid less. But is usually shared among the workers. unless they are able to give it to the mechanic who actually did the work. But Auto Assemblers have it much easier. THEY ARE THE OVERPAID, OVER BENEFITED WHINERS.
if Wal*Mart is so evil, why doesn't Congress patrol and outlaw Wal*Mart? Isn't directing hatred towards Wal*Mart kind of one-sided? It's not just Wal*Mart. How much of bankrupt Linens-N-Things goods were made in China?
Is it wrong for me to buy a car made by Mitsubishi Motors of Japan? Why is it wrong? What is wrong with making choices that are beneficial to me? Not only that, but choices that are beneficial to me for a long time.
There's more going on here. Who thinks ghastly prices are gonna rise in the next 3 months? These decisions are made by people that have been elected by the American people(allowing the trade situation, including import vehicle tariffs that we now have). I as a consumer don't get to decide who will sell me an automobile.
IIRC it was Bill Clinton that OK'd NAFTA. It goes way beyond Party lines.
It is hard to beat the value of a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. The car is made with a computerized driver's information center, TPMS, airbags in every known direction to protect the driver and passengers should a collision occur. The car is a ball to drive, it is truly well-made. Mitsubishi watches how their racing rigs do in races and incorporates changes to their production-line vehicles as they see fit...after watching how their cars perform. What went wrong? What went right? Questions like that.
Guys, I respect a carmaker like that. Does GM do that? Nope, ya dope, they don't.
dallasdude, BTW, do you signal your intention to change lanes while driving on the freeways and highways and various byways of Texas? Tell the truth on that to me.
Or do you just lazily drift on over without signaling, like so many stupid American drivers do these days?
Can I get a witness here? How many of y'all signal your intention to change lanes when driving. If you don't you are being a lazy, stupid, know-it-all driver. An American driver.
Giving money to companies like GM that don't compare how their racing cars are doing and continuously look to improve their cars makes no fiscal sense to me. I like things to make fiscal sense. Money doesn't grow on trees. Apparently you are trying to jack us all up in to thinking that money does grow on trees.
Also, a late-breaking thought. Listening to Wagoner at the Congressional bailout hearings from the TV in the other room made me question his game plan. Does CLUELESS come to anyone else's mind here? How did that guy get that job, anyway? GM and the UAW is doomed. :sick:
Thats about the same thing Phil Gramm said about all Americans. He authored the infamous ENRON clause and snuck it in as congress was leaving in 2000. His wife was on the ENRON payroll too. What a guy. This ENRON clause is the smoking gun behind this whole sub prime economic mess. Deregulate and they will come.
Your not going to tell me that if that employer is having economic issues, that an employee should work below the prevailing wage so as to bail out the employer?
You said "Almost a third of the cost of an import is put back into Japan to run such things as health care and other govt expenses."
That is NOT the same as a 30% tax on income. If income is 6% of the total sales price, then the tax to Japan is about 2%. A big difference from 33% of the cost of the import. This is where the "all the money goes back to Japan" argument falls apart. But for the Japanese nameplates manufactured in the USA, 50%-80% goes to the USA in the form of jobs and services. Two percent in my example goes to Japan.
Why don't you just ship the entire manufacturing base to China and get it over with?
We have a few simple choices here: 1 - Do as you suggest above; 2 - Become competitive. This means welcoming efficiency and keeping costs low. The UAW wants to keep costs high but complains about jobs leaving. Which is it going to be? They ARE NOT going to have both.
The sooner you work on alternate skills and training, the better. Don't put all of your eggs into the UAW basket. Over one third of UAW jobs have been lost since 2000 with your friend Gettlefinger at the helm. Skills diversification is the name of the game. Be ready to move to another part of the country if necessary - jobs are around if you look. Those who prepare will do fine, and many will find life is even better post-UAW. The golden UAW goose - those days are coming to a close. GET OVER IT.
Hopefully with your bigger than average incomes and benefits you have been socking some of it away for a rainy day rather than squandering it all.
Your[sic] not going to tell me that if that employer is having economic issues, that an employee should work below the prevailing wage so as to bail out the employer?
I don't know how many of you have read my lengthy posts on here before about my personal job situation. I was a Boeing Company worker who had just over 20 years with them and I was laid off in 2003. I decided to take Uncle Sam up on Trade Act funds and get re-trained.
I am living testimony to the fact that a guy who used to build jet airplanes(from the Illustration-Engineering side of Boeing's house)can now completely change to another field.
I chose Respiratory Therapy because I researched it on the net and found that Nurses were at a 50% demand rate and Respiratory Therapists were in demand at a 45% growth rate. And because of all the baby boomers retiring(OK, it's now reduced somewhat by this financial crisis, they're having to keep working more and more)the need for Allied Health Care workers continues to keep growing.
I can find a job anywhere in the 50 states that I want to live in. I'm currently looking at a job back in Washington state, in the Olympic National Park area of Port Angeles. Port Angeles is on the Strait of Juan De Fuca, is gorgeous, and if I can get this job I'll be coming back home. I have lived in Port Angeles and Forks(the Twilight movie spot) both in the 80's. It is God's Country, truly gorgeous country. A lot of the Olympic Peninsula area of Washington state is Olympic National Park. Large herds of Roosevelt Elk just walk out on to Highway 101 along Lake Crescent(on the way from Port Angeles to Forks). Mountain goats cling to the sides of the Olympic Mountains. The mountains rise hard and fast up from the waterways of Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan De Fuca, Hood Canal and the Pacific Coast. It rains a lot in Forks, about 144 inches a year. But Port Angeles is more like 33 inches a year of rain. And there is a "banana beIt" of weather where it is actually sunny most of the time. Sequim, about 15 miles east of Port Angeles, is in this sunny zone. Don't know where we might live there, but I'll find us a place to buy. I was born in Seattle, raised in Edmonds and I lived in Everett, Stanwood and Burlington, WA, during my Boeing career. Laid off in May of 2003, and after being in strange states for 5 years, school for 2 years and working in three other states(South Dakota, Idaho and my current work state, Arizona) for the other three, I think I'm coming home(I haven't interviewed for the job yet...I just turned in my application for Washington State Respiratory Therapy licensure and these things will be taken care of in the next 2-3 months...Wa.St. DOH takes a full 2-3 months to process RT applications, then I need to fly up and interview, etc. find housing, etc. They do offer relocation pay, thank goodness...it's expensive to move.) Great benefits package including a comprehensive life insurance program, 24 days off a year for vacation, sick leave, reduced cafeteria costs, a fitness center deal you can't beat, a wonderful medical/dental benefits program, etc., etc. OMC in Port Angeles is a progressive rural hospital and I am confident that the RT skills I've honed as a RT so far at work in the industry will suit them well. I want to move back home so I will be putting my "Hire Me" sign on pretty brightly during the interview.
The Trade Act will pay for your books and tuition completely while you study. And if you keep a 'C' average up you will get weekly unemployment benefits for as long as you need to get your 2-year Degree in the field you choose.
I just want UAW workers to know that it's possible to work in other fields. Is it easy to earn college degrees? Hell no, it's not easy at all. But it can be done. If I were a UAW worker I'd be at the library, on the Internet, etc., working these things out now. Gettlefinger won't be able to save your bacon, nor will Ford(Ford has the best chance, though)Cerberus/Chrysler, nor GM.
But, UAW workers, take note of this. Once you earn your AAS degree and your NBRC(National Board For Respiratory Care)credential, I'm a CRT(Certified Respiratory Therapist)and you can reach for the RRT credential as well(Registered Respiratory Therapist), you can work in basically any state in the 50 states of America you want to work in. Wages and benefits are good, too.
Let me explain how it all works. You get your pink slip, right? You then make sure GM has done their homework and linked your Company up to the Federal Aid program called The Trade Act(started during the Carter Adminstration). It's also called TRA(Trade Readjustment Act). GM should be setting up explanatory meetings for you as I type this out, or hopefully they already have. Boeing was actually fairly helpful for us Trade Act nominees in the spring of 2003.
Then pick a career, see that the Trade Act will cover it, and decide what college you want to attend. Without writing a book in this subject, let me just tell you that you are going to have to be your own advocate for what you want to do, what forms you'll need, etc. Work hard at it and keep at it. I am saying this from experience, there will be frustrating times with this. And once class starts you will have to bust your hump to get your degree. But it pays to go after this. Go after it like a Banshee(whatever a Banshee is).
Don't just crumple up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep, thinking oh boo-hoo, I'm losing my job. Pick yourself up by your swimming trunks, take a deep breath, and just breathe. Just breathe.
You mean like Congressman Dingell's wife that was a GM Lobbyist before they wed? Then given a very high paid executive job at GM. Is that the kind of insiders you are referring to?
The blame for this travesty not only belongs to the auto executives, but must be shared equally with the entire Michigan delegation in the House and Senate, virtually all of whom, year after year, voted however the Detroit automakers and unions instructed them to vote ... Indeed, if and when they do have to bury Detroit, I hope that all the current and past representatives and senators from Michigan have to serve as pallbearers. And no one has earned the "honor" of chief pallbearer more than the Michigan Representative John Dingell, who is more responsible for protecting Detroit to death than any single legislator.
Dingell’s ability to stick up to the Big Three, it turns out, may have been compromised in more ways than one. Dingell’s wife, Deborah, is a former General Motors lobbyist. After the two wed, she moved into a non-lobbying administrative position inside the company. On his latest financial disclosure form, Dingell listed G.M. stock worth up to $300,000, between $500,001 and $1,000,000 in stock options, a vested G.M. pension and his wife’s G.M. salary, the value of which was undeclared. On top of that, CBS News reports, the Dingells had G.M. options worth up to $5 million as recently as 2000, and in 1998, they sold options worth as much as $1 million.
If any pensioner is left hanging by GM when they go bankrupt, Wagoner and crew should be tried for the crimes committed. That means knowingly spending money that should have been preserved for the retirees.
"The more thuggish the UAW becomes, the less sympathy they will get from the average citizen and congress, and the more they will lose. Big 3 management may have been stupid enough to be held hostage by the UAW but the rest of the US is not."
When they come South to protest and block accesss to the import auto plants, they forget one thing...down South we have guns, and a lot of them...and most of us really do know how to use them...
First, we will call law enforcement to break up the crowds...but, if they can't do it, we can always use...uh..."self-help"...
A factory is put in Indiana to make Civics. There is no import tarriff so why put a factory in the USA? To save shipping costs? To make use of Toyota's strategy to call yourself an American company? To get America's tax advantages and save on raw material transportation? To grow an employee based following who will add to the buyers of your cars? To consume America's energy and raw materials? To expel pollution into America? To bring Japanese suppliers over here and set them up with business so they can also become the D3's suppliers? To use a lower cost labor supply? To get a 250 million dollar tax abatement from Indiana? To reduce advertising costs? To reduce insurance costs related to shipping? To sell their fleet of ships? To get Inroads to selling their cars in the heartland, since the coasts are at saturation with Hondas? To get tax writeoffs for Honda mgmt to visit America? All of these and more?
What we get in return: Jobs in an area that previously had almost no prosperity.
Side effects: No chance to protect ourselves if we ever figure out we are being colonized, but maybe an America that doesn't need intellectual property is a good thing. Pretty soon only Asian students will be enrolled in technology programs at our colleges.
When we reach that point, no comeback will ever be possible.
1/3 of transplant value goes back to Japan needs proof? 2000 American assemblers will be making 200,000 Civics a year in the Indiana plant within a few years. Thats 100 Civics a year per American worker, or 2 cars made a week for a worker. They make $14.50 an hour and make a car in 20 hours. That's $290 in base wages to the American for each Civic built. OK, since Civics are $20,000 each, we just need to account for the other $19,710? If we can come up with $13,040 more costs attributable to American supplied things going into the $20,000 Civic, then we are at 1/3 of the value. A little more and the 1/3 is disproved as a false claim. Tlong, what have you got here? Are the 790 robots in the factory designed and built in America? Are the cars partially engineered in America? Pensions for us?
1/3 of transplant value goes back to Japan needs proof? 2000 American assemblers will be making 200,000 Civics a year in the Indiana plant within a few years. Thats 100 Civics a year per American worker, or 2 cars made a week for a worker. They make $14.50 an hour and make a car in 20 hours. That's $290 in base wages to the American for each Civic built. OK, since Civics are $20,000 each, we just need to account for the other $19,710? If we can come up with $13,040 more costs attributable to American supplied things going into the $20,000 Civic, then we are at 1/3 of the value. A little more and the 1/3 is disproved as a false claim. Tlong, what have you got here? Are the 790 robots in the factory designed and built in America? Are the cars partially engineered in America? Pensions for us?
This is the UAW propaganda and so many people have followed it hook, line, and sinker.
"They make a car in 20 hours"
I'm sure you know enough about the auto industry to know that these are not the only labor hours involved: - You didn't account for the worker benefits - all US-sourced parts are made here and use lots of labor - US workers transport parts to the factory - US workers make many of the raw materials that go to the parts factories - US workers transport those raw materials to the parts factories - US trains and trucks transport those Civics to the dealers - US citizens manage the Honda dealership - US salespeople sell the cars
All of those above costs are included in the cost of the car! And since the profit margin on a $20K car is under 10%, no more than 10% of the cost can go to Japan as profits! So your pathetic example that claims only $290 in base wages is important is totally wrong!
No chance to protect ourselves if we ever figure out we are being colonized,
That is pretty funny when we still occupy Japan and Germany. Not to mention all the other countries around the world. The Japanese also have banks in most major US Cities. I doubt that much of that Civic you described being built ends up ever leaving our shores. As soon as GM gets liquidated their will be capacity for parts mfg that can be utilized by Honda on those Civics. The more parts made here the better. Maybe you should ask the employees that built my Sequoia how they like working for Toyota. I can tell you one thing. They did a heck of a lot better job on it than the GMC shop in Indiana did on my 2005 GMC PU truck.
As far as robots. What do you call a UAW guy that installs lug nuts all day long? Progress will run over you or anyone else that tries to stop it. Robots are here to stay. Thank goodness for that. I would hate to think I was nothing more than a human robot. The job to have is designing, building, testing and maintaining the robots. All jobs that take a brain. How many of the rubber room occupants took advantage of that free ride, and got some training in other fields? And how many just sat watching cartoons and eating jelly donuts? Probably telling each other they can't get along without us. We are the most important part of the industrial base. GM and the Big 3 have gotten passed by. Ford is hanging on by a thread. The sooner GM dies the more chance that Ford will survive.
Let us look at how Singapore deals with the fact that it is surrounded by countries which have much much lower wages (Singapore will rank at par with the US, while Indonesia / India etc are even lower than Mexico - so the wage differential is even higher than what US competes against). I remember being in Singapore during the 1997 crisis, and the cab driver - a Singapore national who had been laid off from a company designing circuit boards - was bitterly complaining about how the Government was not helping Singaporeans, but (and he pointed at some construction sites) was allowing import of cheaper labor from Indonesia and Bangladesh. The argument made by the Govt was that Singaporeans need to upgrade their skills and NOT try to compete in labor intensive industries where Singapore can never win. And to force their citizens in that direction, they kept the low end labor market open (thus effectively removing the option of Singaporeans taking refuge in some protected sector).
The fact that Singapore came out of the crisis a much stronger economy, and now is a leading player in Finance and biotechnology (also services - Think Singapore Airlines), while Indonesia / Malaysia remain where they were then - Do you think it has anything to do with the harsh decisions taken by the Government in 1997?
Yes, Japan has tariffs on imported food, especially rice. It has had an interesting effect on the market. The high tariffs on rice have kept the price high, while the price of bread (wheat does not have those traiffs since Japan produces very little wheat) has been relatively low. Over a period of time, Japanese consmers have started eating more and more wheat based products, reducing their rice consumption. So the high tariffs have actually had a negative impact on the rice producers....
In an open market, such manipulation is rarely successful.
Who said anything about it bieng a good thing lemko?
I am merely explaining why the [non-permissible content removed] are so good at what they do....nothing more.
However, you said, and I quote
" I guess you think it's a good thing to work yourself to death while forsaking your family and friends for the good of your Asian masters."
To an extent, Yes is the answer. One has to be diligent in his work. I cannot and will not walk away from work because I have to attend my son's birthday party. I would miss the b'day party if my presence at the workplace would resolve a major issue and keep the business running.
tlong is right. (I have some authority to say this, I have worked in Finance, and know something about transfer pricing and cross country taxation)
Also, due to higher taxes in Japan, Japanese companies WILL NOT repatriate earnings to Japan. Currently more than 100Bn USD of earnings are lying outside Japan (this cash must be invested in something....), and the Japanese Government is now desperate to get it back to Japan.
I thought I missed you marsha7 !!! :P Glad to see you made it back....Thanks for the compliments though !!! I got a loooong drive from Grand Rapids, MI to Troy, MI in the morning !!! It's only 2 1/2 hrs away in normal weather but with this snow I'm afraid I will have to leave extra early !!! I'm happy I will have my bosses demo for the week a 2009' Aura XR 3.6 "High Feature" V6 "Black on Black" I will be XMing it all the way there !!! I hope 62' will bring Slick Rick, LaNeve, Henderson, Lutz, and come by and see me !!! :P Senator Dodd, wants to get rid of Wagoner, but that white haired dude soon forgets he gave Wallstreet, a blank check and because the big 3 didn't write him a ripper for campaign contributions he's going to hold them to a higher moral level ??? Jeff Sessions, is playing the same game. We all said if it was Toyota, that he'd be on his hands and knees asking for a bailout !!! :mad:
The bottom line is Wagoner, despite his mistakes is a very smart guy. Sure if 62' and him come beg me to work for them I might think about it !!! :P :P :P I could replace Lutz, when he decides to hang up the gloves !!! :shades:
How about quit knocking down the small man and instead turn that energy into improving the lives of the working middle class !!! The UAW, mob and other union members actually buy these vehicles because they have the disposable income.
It's not BS, because that is the same words echoed out of Gentex, Johnson Controls, Delphi, Donnelly, etc..... around here tlong. No offense, but to many folks that live in timbuktu have nary a clue or can comprehend the ripple effect that will hurt them also if the Big 3 go belly up !!!
Rocky, congrats on the job and I hope it works out well for you (seriously!). We miss you around here!
However, I'm willing to run the experiment on a bankruptcy. But that's just my opinion, its Congress who's going to decide (and we all know how bright that bunch is in managing finances!).
62' Come-on.... I gave you enough clues on who I work for !!! :P
I work for the Suburban Collection, pal and my store is in Holland, Michigan (Saturn) but I have access to all of the Suburban Collection, inventory !!! I would assume you know our owner Mr. Fischer ??? I will get to meet him this week. Wagoner and him are real tight !!!
Thanks !!! The jobs bank I will admit was designed for another era when GM, was on top of the hill. It's ashame we as a society have sold out our domestic business and allowed foreign subsidized business to gobble up large chunks of american interests here and abroad. It makes me sick as an american we've allowed one-sided trade for so damn long !!! Our manufacturing sector along with it's workforce should be protected. I will enjoy the training I will receive this next week thus I won't be on at all this next week because I will be in Troy. I have about 5 deals cooking' for when I get back. About 3 solid ones with 2 maybe's. I knew when I took this job I was going to be facing the toughest odds in automotive history for a automobile salesman but I feel if we can turn this economy around and restore some sense of confidence and stability in the market and in peoples occupations then just maybe people who are making a decent wage will splash their hard earned money on a new car because right now is the best time in history to buy a car !!!
‘It's not BS, because that is the same words echoed out of Gentex, Johnson Controls, Delphi, Donnelly, etc..... around here tlong. No offense, but to many folks that live in timbuktu have nary a clue or can comprehend the ripple effect that will hurt them also if the Big 3 go belly up !!! ‘
And that is about the only reason why I support the bail out. The ripple effect, otherwise I think GM should be broken up and sold. It should go bankrupt because it will take more cash than they are asking for and more time than is politically feasible to save them. Basically I don’t think GM can return to profitability within the next 4 years. They have done nothing to address the loss market share. They are doing little to address the over capacity and I have little faith in their ability to create desirable products that sell at a profit. When people are willing to pay more money to avoid your product, you have got major problems.
The last time GM could have righted the ship was ten years ago and now it is too late. Perhaps we could give the loans to the suppliers and just let GM go chapter 7. I don’t think any wise automotive company would be looking to buy up those factories at this point.(The financial market and sales environment is too bad). Nor do I think it would be smart (i.e. some how I don’t think a company that is losing money will be able to keep up with modernizing and replacing broken equipment.).
I think that the only thing the bail out can do is delay the day of reckoning.
I think that doing what gm needs is also politically not viable. Politicians like to keep as many jobs as possible and keep investors happy. But GM needs to be broken up into smaller separate companies and the only parts of GM that make any sense are Chevy(without the trucks), GMC(trucks/SUV) and Cadillac. The rest are niche brands and overlap. Doing this will cost an extreme amount of jobs (both automaker and dealer) making it very not viable. Not counting reducing the pension and benefits to retirees. And what on earth do you with the bond and shareholders? I don’t think that is going to happen.
I knew when I took this job I was going to be facing the toughest odds in automotive history for a automobile salesman...
Rocky, if you can do well in this situation then think of how well you'll do when the economy improves! We wish you the best (even if we don't always agree with you!).
> Senator Dodd, wants to get rid of Wagoner, but that white haired dude soon forgets he gave Wallstreet, a blank check and because the big 3 didn't write him a ripper for campaign contributions he's going to hold them to a higher moral level ??? Jeff Sessions, is playing the same game. We all said if it was Toyota, that he'd be on his hands and knees asking for a bailout !!! >The bottom line is Wagoner, despite his mistakes is a very smart guy.
Prezactly.
But the problem is more than individuals being swayed by lobbyists; it's that the whole Congress is being run by business money and lobbyists rather than for the people.
While they are covering their behinds after giving a blank check to the finance folks and lots of money to keep attention off their lack of control of the leveraged markets and the synthetic markets, they are using the hubbub over the US automakers that they've screwed through the years to keep up fighting each other instead of attacking them.
We should be lobbying to get Frank, Dodd, Waters, Raines, and others in jail. Instead we're arguing over some of the UAW being highly paid and benefit-loaded and how it has hurt the business as well; but the way that foreign makers were allowed free rein and given great amounts of value to build plants here rather than putting tariffs on their cars is wrong. We should have required they join up with US companies no more than 49% the way Asian countries are doing. They could build here
Snow: Good friend just drove back from a visit/business in Gd. Rapids. Said they had 14 inches of snow!!!
We had flurries on Sat that stuck and people couldn't drive in it.
Senator Dodd, wants to get rid of Wagoner, but that white haired dude soon forgets he gave Wallstreet, a blank check and because the big 3 didn't write him a ripper for campaign contributions he's going to hold them to a higher moral level
I think you are missing the big picture. A big majority of the Congress and soon to be President Obama, see the handwriting on the wall. GM is a dead monkey. I don't think getting rid of Wagoner would make a bit of difference. GM owes too much money and has too little market share left to make a comeback intact. Liquidation would be the quickest way to turn the automotive business back to profitability. Like many have posted the Chinese can buy up the separate companies and sell the cars and trucks that are competitive.
The UAW is not part of the scenario. The UAW workers that are wanting to work for wages comparable to the non union shops MIGHT be given a chance to prove their worth.
Rocky, one question. If Wagoner is as smart as you say. How did he manage to go all through the CLINTON years selling record numbers of SUVs and not make a decent profit? He never cracked 5% in any year. That is substandard for any Fortune 500 company. Just let GM die....
Hopefully he has seen the light on that very repressive EFCA bill along with several other tax issues. I hear he is wanting Rush Limbaugh as Sec of Labor. :shades:
Now it’s Obama’s Cabinet moves that are drawing the most fire. It’s not just that he’s picked Clinton and Gates. It’s that liberal Democrats say they’re hard-pressed to find one of their own on Obama’s team so far – particularly on the economic side, where people like Tim Geithner and Lawrence Summers are hardly viewed as pro-labor.
“At his announcement of an economic team there was no secretary of labor. If you don’t think the labor secretary is on the same level as treasury secretary, that gives me pause,” said Jonathan Tasini, who runs the website workinglife.org. “The president-elect wouldn't be president-elect without labor."
During the campaign Obama gained labor support by saying he favored legislation that would make it easier for unions to form inside companies. The “card check” bill would get rid of a secret-ballot method of voting to form a union and replace it with a system that would require companies to recognize unions simply if a majority of workers signed cards saying they want one. Obama still supports that legislation, aides say – but union leaders are worried that he no longer talks it up much as president-elect.
imidazol97: Instead we're arguing over some of the UAW being highly paid and benefit-loaded and how it has hurt the business as well; but the way that foreign makers were allowed free rein and given great amounts of value to build plants here rather than putting tariffs on their cars is wrong.
Yes, it's very wrong that the U.S. allows compaines to set up shop in the U.S. and provide good-paying jobs to Americans so that they can build vehicles that Americans want.
And the reason Americans want them is because, with a few notable exceptions, they are superior to what the home team is offering.
The fact that Detroit defenders consider this to be "bad" speaks volumes about the pro-Detroit mentality, and why the rest of the country has little, if any, sympathy for GM, Chrysler and the UAW.
We can now return to our regularly scheduled whine-a-thon about: currency manipulation, Consumer Reports, unfair trade, environmentalists, Californians, people who buy Toyotas, companies that have the gall to set up factories in the U.S. to employ Americans at good wages...have I missed anything?
imidazol97: We should have required they join up with US companies no more than 49% the way Asian countries are doing.
Yes, because Japan has been in a recession since about 1990, so therefore, the U.S. should also adopt policies that strangle foreign investment and economic growth, to ensure that our economy remains stagnant, too.
Unfortunately, the U.S. didn't follow this path, so we spent most of the 1990s with a booming economy.
How did he manage to go all through the CLINTON years selling record numbers of SUVs and not make a decent profit? He never cracked 5% in any year. That is substandard for any Fortune 500 company. Just let GM die....
Yet GM has $100 billion in the pension funds. Perhaps that is where the profits went?
Yet GM has $100 billion in the pension funds. Perhaps that is where the profits went?
I think you posted that the GM pension fund has assets of $107 billion. How much of that $66 billion that GM owes was borrowed from the pension fund? Companies are notorious for borrowing from pension funds. These are the kind of questions our lame brained Congress should be asking. Not how they got to the meetings.
GM has $100 billion in pension funds. They have borrowed nothing from it. Honestly I thought it was against the law to do that. I know an ex baseball great did that from a company he bought and he went to jail for that.
Here's a thought, which is worth exactly what I'm charging you for it:
In 1993, IBM announced that it had lost over $8 billion during the prior year - at that time, the largest loss in corporate history. Shortly afterwards, it recruited Lou Gerstner, a marketing guy with no technology background, from RJR Nabisco, where he was the CEO. (Before joining RJR Nabisco, he held marketing positions at American Express.)
Although he was an outsider in a company that traditionally promoted from within, Gerstner turned IBM around & restored it to profitability without breaking it up or resorting to large-scale layoffs. By the late 90s, IBM stock was hitting new highs. (I'm a longtime IBM shareholder, & I consider Gerstner to be one of the most talented American CEOs of the post-WWII era.)
Could Gerstner do the same for GM? I doubt it - I think that GM is too far gone to be saved intact. But he's a marketing genius, & he could separate the gems (Cadillac) from the trash (Pontiac) & restore what's worth saving to profitability.
We can now return to our regularly scheduled whine-a-thon about: currency manipulation, Consumer Reports, unfair trade, environmentalists, Californians, people who buy Toyotas, companies that have the gall to set up factories in the U.S. to employ Americans at good wages...have I missed anything?
GM has $100 billion in pension funds. They have borrowed nothing from it. Honestly I thought it was against the law to do that.
I think it's more a case that companies underfund or don't pay in if they have financial difficulties. Which IMHO should be a breach of their legal/fiduciary responsibilities.
It should be if it is not. The 1990 ERISA changed much of how Pensions are handled. If GM has $100 b in a separate Pension Fund, that is great. I would think the fiduciary committee should be able to keep the retirees from being left hanging when GM goes bankrupt. Personally that would be my main concern in giving a bailout. To protect those already retired. So let me get this straight. The wage package for the UAW is over $70 and the current retirees are covered by a fully funded pension plan? Something is not adding up. Unless all the excess is going toward the retirees health care plan. In which case they need to be dumped into Medicare and on their own. I think the UAW must be the last of the non government Unions that pay health care for the life of the retiree.
FYI-salaried retirees no longer have health care after 65. (as of 1/1/09)
GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers.” Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down $26.65.
In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.
Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
Employer Active members Retired members Surviving spouses Totals
Interesting. I see they use that hourly figure to include overtime hours. We always calculated them differently. My hourly package was no where near $81 per hour and my dollar figure on my check was $38 plus $7 into retirement. Health was close to $9. It is hard to get a good handle on those figures. Could be creative accounting. My loaded rate was $135 per hour when I went to work on customers systems. That included everyone from the top to the bottom.
So take $80 and take away $30, gives you $50. Sure would like to see that breakdown. SS is about 8% so that is $2.40. What is the cost of full health care insurance? I found that it is about $16k for the best insurance which is almost $10/hour. So we are now down to ~$38 extra. Figure in the job banks and the number comes down a bit more. But where is the rest going? Legacy cost of pension and health care to all those retirees i listed before.
So what will the government do about them next march?
General Motors 73,454 269,614 retirees 69,288 spouses of retirees 412,356
Wow each working person at GM is supporting 4.5-5 people who are retired.
Maybe we should put a tax on the non-US car builders. That tax can go to help pay the cost of the companies whom they have undercut these years in caring for the retirees of said companies.
We need to look at the auto industry like any other business group. The one time largest company in the World was AT&T. They never had a retirement that was close to what the UAW people got. I worked 9 years for Pacific Telephone and got NOTHING when I left. And it was Union. Even the government related jobs do not have as good of a retirement for those recently hired. It is just not sustainable. The Big 3 could see that and buckled under to UAW demands. Now it is time to pay. If I got left out in the cold by the Union I would sue them not the company. I paid Union dues to protect my interest. If they made some kind of underhanded retirement deal that depended on future workers to pay my retirement I would be pissed. The workers should have started seeing that from 1970 on when they started losing members. Ignorance on their part should not be paid for by me.
When Toyota built their first plant and offered a 401K, the Big 3 should have done the same on the next round of contracts with the UAW. They didn't and are now losing their shorts. And expecting US to bail them out of their own lack of foresight.
Comments
They get bought by the welfare people on the South Side of Chicago. I have not bought a pair of shoes made in China. I am hoping my stock of US made shoes and sandals will last the rest of my life. Some have holes in the soles. If you own a pair of shoes made in China you have no room to complain. Same goes for all those UAW workers that shop at WalMart.
New Balance, no super star endorsement, American made, and no child labor.
I disagree and would like to see how you come up with that number.
The rest of the post - unions were very valuable 100 or 75 years ago. Today workers have huge safety nets and rules provided by the federal government. Unions are hurting our competitiveness rather than helping it.
Why don't you just ship the entire manufacturing base to China and get it over with? Unfortunately we can't ship out those Wally World jobs. Yeah, we require that the illegals they hire to clean out the stores not be locked inside, people be allowed to take breaks, women be given equal opportunity, and did I forget something? The geature of hiring a greeter, old or handicap isn't really necessary to keep up PR/good corporate image.
http://walmartwatch.com/
First, remember we still have loop holes for both people and corporations. Then too we are double taxed, somewhat in that both shareholder and corporation pay taxes. They are straight forward and thats cheap compared to Europe. Germany being the most socialist country. So, unlike Americans they aren't as wasteful. Thats a very conservative number. Nissan quoted 34%.
Japanese Corporate tax
A corporation in Japan is required to file returns, pay tax and supply details of the computation of taxable income to the Japanese tax office. The place of tax payment of a domestic corporation is the place where its head or main office is located. In case of a foreign corporation, the place of the payment is where the corporation's main permanent establishment or estate in Japan is located.
For a corporation whose capital exceeds JPY 100million, a tax rate of 30% is applicable to all of the ordinary income. For a corporation whose capital amounts to JPY 100million or less, a tax rate of 22% is applicable up to JPY 8million and a tax rate of 30% to the remainder of the ordinary income.
A corporation is required to file a final tax return within 2 months after the end of its business year. A final tax return must be accompanied by the balance sheet, profit and loss statement and other documents describing items necessary for calculating its ordinary income, undistributed income and the corporation tax due.
If the ordinary income shows a net loss, the net loss can be carried forward to the five succeeding years, which is deductible from the income of each business year.
Foreign corporations, which do not have their head office in Japan are classified for tax purposes as follows:
Foreign corporations carrying on business through a branch office are subject to corporation tax on their entire income sources in Japan.
Foreign corporations carrying on business not through permanent establishments but through an agent in Japan who has the authority to conclude contracts or important activities are subject to corporation tax on the income derived from a business in Japan.
http://www.acojapan.com/japanesetax.htm
http://www.mof.go.jp/english/zei/report2/zc001d02.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/09/21/paulson-urges-quick-action-billion-ba- ilout-plan/
Replying to: Most of the country sees overpaid.......
Yes, Dealer Auto mechanics do make a good salary. They get a work order for a certain repair. That repair by the hour book says this job pays say, three hrs. If the mechanic finishes the job in one hour, he gets paid for three hours, as does the Dealer.
Yes warranty work is paid less. But is usually shared among the workers. unless they are able to give it to the mechanic who actually did the work.
But Auto Assemblers have it much easier. THEY ARE THE OVERPAID, OVER BENEFITED WHINERS.
Is it wrong for me to buy a car made by Mitsubishi Motors of Japan? Why is it wrong? What is wrong with making choices that are beneficial to me? Not only that, but choices that are beneficial to me for a long time.
There's more going on here. Who thinks ghastly prices are gonna rise in the next 3 months? These decisions are made by people that have been elected by the American people(allowing the trade situation, including import vehicle tariffs that we now have). I as a consumer don't get to decide who will sell me an automobile.
IIRC it was Bill Clinton that OK'd NAFTA. It goes way beyond Party lines.
It is hard to beat the value of a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. The car is made with a computerized driver's information center, TPMS, airbags in every known direction to protect the driver and passengers should a collision occur. The car is a ball to drive, it is truly well-made. Mitsubishi watches how their racing rigs do in races and incorporates changes to their production-line vehicles as they see fit...after watching how their cars perform. What went wrong? What went right? Questions like that.
Guys, I respect a carmaker like that. Does GM do that? Nope, ya dope, they don't.
dallasdude, BTW, do you signal your intention to change lanes while driving on the freeways and highways and various byways of Texas? Tell the truth on that to me.
Or do you just lazily drift on over without signaling, like so many stupid American drivers do these days?
Can I get a witness here? How many of y'all signal your intention to change lanes when driving. If you don't you are being a lazy, stupid, know-it-all driver. An American driver.
Giving money to companies like GM that don't compare how their racing cars are doing and continuously look to improve their cars makes no fiscal sense to me. I like things to make fiscal sense. Money doesn't grow on trees. Apparently you are trying to jack us all up in to thinking that money does grow on trees.
Also, a late-breaking thought. Listening to Wagoner at the Congressional bailout hearings from the TV in the other room made me question his game plan. Does CLUELESS come to anyone else's mind here? How did that guy get that job, anyway? GM and the UAW is doomed. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Thats about the same thing Phil Gramm said about all Americans. He authored the infamous ENRON clause and snuck it in as congress was leaving in 2000. His wife was on the ENRON payroll too. What a guy. This ENRON clause is the smoking gun behind this whole sub prime economic mess. Deregulate and they will come.
This says everything in a nutshell.
We will put this on the UAW's tombstone.
That is NOT the same as a 30% tax on income. If income is 6% of the total sales price, then the tax to Japan is about 2%. A big difference from 33% of the cost of the import. This is where the "all the money goes back to Japan" argument falls apart. But for the Japanese nameplates manufactured in the USA, 50%-80% goes to the USA in the form of jobs and services. Two percent in my example goes to Japan.
We have a few simple choices here:
1 - Do as you suggest above;
2 - Become competitive. This means welcoming efficiency and keeping costs low. The UAW wants to keep costs high but complains about jobs leaving. Which is it going to be? They ARE NOT going to have both.
Hopefully with your bigger than average incomes and benefits you have been socking some of it away for a rainy day rather than squandering it all.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I am living testimony to the fact that a guy who used to build jet airplanes(from the Illustration-Engineering side of Boeing's house)can now completely change to another field.
I chose Respiratory Therapy because I researched it on the net and found that Nurses were at a 50% demand rate and Respiratory Therapists were in demand at a 45% growth rate. And because of all the baby boomers retiring(OK, it's now reduced somewhat by this financial crisis, they're having to keep working more and more)the need for Allied Health Care workers continues to keep growing.
I can find a job anywhere in the 50 states that I want to live in. I'm currently looking at a job back in Washington state, in the Olympic National Park area of Port Angeles. Port Angeles is on the Strait of Juan De Fuca, is gorgeous, and if I can get this job I'll be coming back home. I have lived in Port Angeles and Forks(the Twilight movie spot) both in the 80's. It is God's Country, truly gorgeous country. A lot of the Olympic Peninsula area of Washington state is Olympic National Park. Large herds of Roosevelt Elk just walk out on to Highway 101 along Lake Crescent(on the way from Port Angeles to Forks). Mountain goats cling to the sides of the Olympic Mountains. The mountains rise hard and fast up from the waterways of Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan De Fuca, Hood Canal and the Pacific Coast. It rains a lot in Forks, about 144 inches a year. But Port Angeles is more like 33 inches a year of rain. And there is a "banana beIt" of weather where it is actually sunny most of the time. Sequim, about 15 miles east of Port Angeles, is in this sunny zone. Don't know where we might live there, but I'll find us a place to buy. I was born in Seattle, raised in Edmonds and I lived in Everett, Stanwood and Burlington, WA, during my Boeing career. Laid off in May of 2003, and after being in strange states for 5 years, school for 2 years and working in three other states(South Dakota, Idaho and my current work state, Arizona) for the other three, I think I'm coming home(I haven't interviewed for the job yet...I just turned in my application for Washington State Respiratory Therapy licensure and these things will be taken care of in the next 2-3 months...Wa.St. DOH takes a full 2-3 months to process RT applications, then I need to fly up and interview, etc. find housing, etc. They do offer relocation pay, thank goodness...it's expensive to move.) Great benefits package including a comprehensive life insurance program, 24 days off a year for vacation, sick leave, reduced cafeteria costs, a fitness center deal you can't beat, a wonderful medical/dental benefits program, etc., etc. OMC in Port Angeles is a progressive rural hospital and I am confident that the RT skills I've honed as a RT so far at work in the industry will suit them well. I want to move back home so I will be putting my "Hire Me" sign on pretty brightly during the interview.
The Trade Act will pay for your books and tuition completely while you study. And if you keep a 'C' average up you will get weekly unemployment benefits for as long as you need to get your 2-year Degree in the field you choose.
I just want UAW workers to know that it's possible to work in other fields. Is it easy to earn college degrees? Hell no, it's not easy at all. But it can be done. If I were a UAW worker I'd be at the library, on the Internet, etc., working these things out now. Gettlefinger won't be able to save your bacon, nor will Ford(Ford has the best chance, though)Cerberus/Chrysler, nor GM.
But, UAW workers, take note of this. Once you earn your AAS degree and your NBRC(National Board For Respiratory Care)credential, I'm a CRT(Certified Respiratory Therapist)and you can reach for the RRT credential as well(Registered Respiratory Therapist), you can work in basically any state in the 50 states of America you want to work in. Wages and benefits are good, too.
Let me explain how it all works. You get your pink slip, right? You then make sure GM has done their homework and linked your Company up to the Federal Aid program called The Trade Act(started during the Carter Adminstration). It's also called TRA(Trade Readjustment Act). GM should be setting up explanatory meetings for you as I type this out, or hopefully they already have. Boeing was actually fairly helpful for us Trade Act nominees in the spring of 2003.
Then pick a career, see that the Trade Act will cover it, and decide what college you want to attend. Without writing a book in this subject, let me just tell you that you are going to have to be your own advocate for what you want to do, what forms you'll need, etc. Work hard at it and keep at it. I am saying this from experience, there will be frustrating times with this. And once class starts you will have to bust your hump to get your degree. But it pays to go after this. Go after it like a Banshee(whatever a Banshee is).
Don't just crumple up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep, thinking oh boo-hoo, I'm losing my job. Pick yourself up by your swimming trunks, take a deep breath, and just breathe. Just breathe.
Then dive in and have a ball.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You mean like Congressman Dingell's wife that was a GM Lobbyist before they wed? Then given a very high paid executive job at GM. Is that the kind of insiders you are referring to?
The blame for this travesty not only belongs to the auto executives, but must be shared equally with the entire Michigan delegation in the House and Senate, virtually all of whom, year after year, voted however the Detroit automakers and unions instructed them to vote ... Indeed, if and when they do have to bury Detroit, I hope that all the current and past representatives and senators from Michigan have to serve as pallbearers. And no one has earned the "honor" of chief pallbearer more than the Michigan Representative John Dingell, who is more responsible for protecting Detroit to death than any single legislator.
Dingell’s ability to stick up to the Big Three, it turns out, may have been compromised in more ways than one. Dingell’s wife, Deborah, is a former General Motors lobbyist. After the two wed, she moved into a non-lobbying administrative position inside the company. On his latest financial disclosure form, Dingell listed G.M. stock worth up to $300,000, between $500,001 and $1,000,000 in stock options, a vested G.M. pension and his wife’s G.M. salary, the value of which was undeclared. On top of that, CBS News reports, the Dingells had G.M. options worth up to $5 million as recently as 2000, and in 1998, they sold options worth as much as $1 million.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/12/04/dingell_detroit/index.html
If any pensioner is left hanging by GM when they go bankrupt, Wagoner and crew should be tried for the crimes committed. That means knowingly spending money that should have been preserved for the retirees.
When they come South to protest and block accesss to the import auto plants, they forget one thing...down South we have guns, and a lot of them...and most of us really do know how to use them...
First, we will call law enforcement to break up the crowds...but, if they can't do it, we can always use...uh..."self-help"...
Not like some guy up north named Plaxico huh?
There is no import tarriff so why put a factory in the USA? To save shipping costs?
To make use of Toyota's strategy to call yourself an American company? To get America's tax advantages and save on raw material transportation? To grow an employee based following who will add to the buyers of your cars? To consume America's energy and raw materials? To expel pollution into America? To bring Japanese suppliers over here and set them up with business so they can also become the D3's suppliers? To use a lower cost labor supply? To get a 250 million dollar tax abatement from Indiana? To reduce advertising costs? To reduce insurance costs related to shipping? To sell their fleet of ships? To get Inroads to selling their cars in the heartland, since the coasts are at saturation with Hondas? To get tax writeoffs for Honda mgmt to visit America? All of these and more?
What we get in return:
Jobs in an area that previously had almost no prosperity.
Side effects:
No chance to protect ourselves if we ever figure out we are being colonized, but maybe an America that doesn't need intellectual property is a good thing. Pretty soon only Asian students will be enrolled in technology programs at our colleges.
When we reach that point, no comeback will ever be possible.
1/3 of transplant value goes back to Japan needs proof? 2000 American assemblers will be making 200,000 Civics a year in the Indiana plant within a few years. Thats 100 Civics a year per American worker, or 2 cars made a week for a worker. They make $14.50 an hour and make a car in 20 hours. That's $290 in base wages to the American for each Civic built. OK, since Civics are $20,000 each, we just need to account for the other $19,710? If we can come up with $13,040 more costs attributable to American supplied things going into the $20,000 Civic, then we are at 1/3 of the value. A little more and the 1/3 is disproved as a false claim. Tlong, what have you got here? Are the 790 robots in the factory designed and built in America? Are the cars partially engineered in America? Pensions for us?
This is the UAW propaganda and so many people have followed it hook, line, and sinker.
"They make a car in 20 hours"
I'm sure you know enough about the auto industry to know that these are not the only labor hours involved:
- You didn't account for the worker benefits
- all US-sourced parts are made here and use lots of labor
- US workers transport parts to the factory
- US workers make many of the raw materials that go to the parts factories
- US workers transport those raw materials to the parts factories
- US trains and trucks transport those Civics to the dealers
- US citizens manage the Honda dealership
- US salespeople sell the cars
All of those above costs are included in the cost of the car! And since the profit margin on a $20K car is under 10%, no more than 10% of the cost can go to Japan as profits! So your pathetic example that claims only $290 in base wages is important is totally wrong!
That is pretty funny when we still occupy Japan and Germany. Not to mention all the other countries around the world. The Japanese also have banks in most major US Cities. I doubt that much of that Civic you described being built ends up ever leaving our shores. As soon as GM gets liquidated their will be capacity for parts mfg that can be utilized by Honda on those Civics. The more parts made here the better. Maybe you should ask the employees that built my Sequoia how they like working for Toyota. I can tell you one thing. They did a heck of a lot better job on it than the GMC shop in Indiana did on my 2005 GMC PU truck.
As far as robots. What do you call a UAW guy that installs lug nuts all day long? Progress will run over you or anyone else that tries to stop it. Robots are here to stay. Thank goodness for that. I would hate to think I was nothing more than a human robot. The job to have is designing, building, testing and maintaining the robots. All jobs that take a brain. How many of the rubber room occupants took advantage of that free ride, and got some training in other fields? And how many just sat watching cartoons and eating jelly donuts? Probably telling each other they can't get along without us. We are the most important part of the industrial base. GM and the Big 3 have gotten passed by. Ford is hanging on by a thread. The sooner GM dies the more chance that Ford will survive.
Let us look at how Singapore deals with the fact that it is surrounded by countries which have much much lower wages (Singapore will rank at par with the US, while Indonesia / India etc are even lower than Mexico - so the wage differential is even higher than what US competes against). I remember being in Singapore during the 1997 crisis, and the cab driver - a Singapore national who had been laid off from a company designing circuit boards - was bitterly complaining about how the Government was not helping Singaporeans, but (and he pointed at some construction sites) was allowing import of cheaper labor from Indonesia and Bangladesh. The argument made by the Govt was that Singaporeans need to upgrade their skills and NOT try to compete in labor intensive industries where Singapore can never win. And to force their citizens in that direction, they kept the low end labor market open (thus effectively removing the option of Singaporeans taking refuge in some protected sector).
The fact that Singapore came out of the crisis a much stronger economy, and now is a leading player in Finance and biotechnology (also services - Think Singapore Airlines), while Indonesia / Malaysia remain where they were then - Do you think it has anything to do with the harsh decisions taken by the Government in 1997?
Certainly worth thinking about.
It has had an interesting effect on the market. The high tariffs on rice have kept the price high, while the price of bread (wheat does not have those traiffs since Japan produces very little wheat) has been relatively low.
Over a period of time, Japanese consmers have started eating more and more wheat based products, reducing their rice consumption. So the high tariffs have actually had a negative impact on the rice producers....
In an open market, such manipulation is rarely successful.
I am merely explaining why the [non-permissible content removed] are so good at what they do....nothing more.
However, you said, and I quote
" I guess you think it's a good thing to work yourself to death while forsaking your family and friends for the good of your Asian masters."
To an extent, Yes is the answer. One has to be diligent in his work. I cannot and will not walk away from work because I have to attend my son's birthday party. I would miss the b'day party if my presence at the workplace would resolve a major issue and keep the business running.
Also, due to higher taxes in Japan, Japanese companies WILL NOT repatriate earnings to Japan. Currently more than 100Bn USD of earnings are lying outside Japan (this cash must be invested in something....), and the Japanese Government is now desperate to get it back to Japan.
http://in.reuters.com/article/asiaCompanyAndMarkets/idINT26990820080509
In modern capitalism, the companies are there to maximize returns, not fly the national flag.
(By the way, this number is a small fraction of the total sales that Japanese companies have overseas, proving tlong's point)
The bottom line is Wagoner, despite his mistakes is a very smart guy. Sure if 62' and him come beg me to work for them I might think about it !!! :P :P :P I could replace Lutz, when he decides to hang up the gloves !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
However, I'm willing to run the experiment on a bankruptcy. But that's just my opinion, its Congress who's going to decide (and we all know how bright that bunch is in managing finances!).
I work for the Suburban Collection, pal and my store is in Holland, Michigan (Saturn) but I have access to all of the Suburban Collection, inventory !!! I would assume you know our owner Mr. Fischer ??? I will get to meet him this week. Wagoner and him are real tight !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
And that is about the only reason why I support the bail out. The ripple effect, otherwise I think GM should be broken up and sold. It should go bankrupt because it will take more cash than they are asking for and more time than is politically feasible to save them. Basically I don’t think GM can return to profitability within the next 4 years. They have done nothing to address the loss market share. They are doing little to address the over capacity and I have little faith in their ability to create desirable products that sell at a profit. When people are willing to pay more money to avoid your product, you have got major problems.
The last time GM could have righted the ship was ten years ago and now it is too late. Perhaps we could give the loans to the suppliers and just let GM go chapter 7. I don’t think any wise automotive company would be looking to buy up those factories at this point.(The financial market and sales environment is too bad). Nor do I think it would be smart (i.e. some how I don’t think a company that is losing money will be able to keep up with modernizing and replacing broken equipment.).
I think that the only thing the bail out can do is delay the day of reckoning.
I think that doing what gm needs is also politically not viable. Politicians like to keep as many jobs as possible and keep investors happy. But GM needs to be broken up into smaller separate companies and the only parts of GM that make any sense are Chevy(without the trucks), GMC(trucks/SUV) and Cadillac. The rest are niche brands and overlap. Doing this will cost an extreme amount of jobs (both automaker and dealer) making it very not viable. Not counting reducing the pension and benefits to retirees. And what on earth do you with the bond and shareholders? I don’t think that is going to happen.
Rocky, if you can do well in this situation then think of how well you'll do when the economy improves! We wish you the best (even if we don't always agree with you!).
>The bottom line is Wagoner, despite his mistakes is a very smart guy.
Prezactly.
But the problem is more than individuals being swayed by lobbyists; it's that the whole Congress is being run by business money and lobbyists rather than for the people.
While they are covering their behinds after giving a blank check to the finance folks and lots of money to keep attention off their lack of control of the leveraged markets and the synthetic markets, they are using the hubbub over the US automakers that they've screwed through the years to keep up fighting each other instead of attacking them.
We should be lobbying to get Frank, Dodd, Waters, Raines, and others in jail. Instead we're arguing over some of the UAW being highly paid and benefit-loaded and how it has hurt the business as well; but the way that foreign makers were allowed free rein and given great amounts of value to build plants here rather than putting tariffs on their cars is wrong. We should have required they join up with US companies no more than 49% the way Asian countries are doing. They could build here
Snow: Good friend just drove back from a visit/business in Gd. Rapids. Said they had 14 inches of snow!!!
We had flurries on Sat that stuck and people couldn't drive in it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think you are missing the big picture. A big majority of the Congress and soon to be President Obama, see the handwriting on the wall. GM is a dead monkey. I don't think getting rid of Wagoner would make a bit of difference. GM owes too much money and has too little market share left to make a comeback intact. Liquidation would be the quickest way to turn the automotive business back to profitability. Like many have posted the Chinese can buy up the separate companies and sell the cars and trucks that are competitive.
The UAW is not part of the scenario. The UAW workers that are wanting to work for wages comparable to the non union shops MIGHT be given a chance to prove their worth.
Rocky, one question. If Wagoner is as smart as you say. How did he manage to go all through the CLINTON years selling record numbers of SUVs and not make a decent profit? He never cracked 5% in any year. That is substandard for any Fortune 500 company. Just let GM die....
Now it’s Obama’s Cabinet moves that are drawing the most fire. It’s not just that he’s picked Clinton and Gates. It’s that liberal Democrats say they’re hard-pressed to find one of their own on Obama’s team so far – particularly on the economic side, where people like Tim Geithner and Lawrence Summers are hardly viewed as pro-labor.
“At his announcement of an economic team there was no secretary of labor. If you don’t think the labor secretary is on the same level as treasury secretary, that gives me pause,” said Jonathan Tasini, who runs the website workinglife.org. “The president-elect wouldn't be president-elect without labor."
During the campaign Obama gained labor support by saying he favored legislation that would make it easier for unions to form inside companies. The “card check” bill would get rid of a secret-ballot method of voting to form a union and replace it with a system that would require companies to recognize unions simply if a majority of workers signed cards saying they want one. Obama still supports that legislation, aides say – but union leaders are worried that he no longer talks it up much as president-elect.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16292.html
Yes, it's very wrong that the U.S. allows compaines to set up shop in the U.S. and provide good-paying jobs to Americans so that they can build vehicles that Americans want.
And the reason Americans want them is because, with a few notable exceptions, they are superior to what the home team is offering.
The fact that Detroit defenders consider this to be "bad" speaks volumes about the pro-Detroit mentality, and why the rest of the country has little, if any, sympathy for GM, Chrysler and the UAW.
We can now return to our regularly scheduled whine-a-thon about: currency manipulation, Consumer Reports, unfair trade, environmentalists, Californians, people who buy Toyotas, companies that have the gall to set up factories in the U.S. to employ Americans at good wages...have I missed anything?
imidazol97: We should have required they join up with US companies no more than 49% the way Asian countries are doing.
Yes, because Japan has been in a recession since about 1990, so therefore, the U.S. should also adopt policies that strangle foreign investment and economic growth, to ensure that our economy remains stagnant, too.
Unfortunately, the U.S. didn't follow this path, so we spent most of the 1990s with a booming economy.
How did he manage to go all through the CLINTON years selling record numbers of SUVs and not make a decent profit? He never cracked 5% in any year. That is substandard for any Fortune 500 company. Just let GM die....
Yet GM has $100 billion in the pension funds. Perhaps that is where the profits went?
I think you posted that the GM pension fund has assets of $107 billion. How much of that $66 billion that GM owes was borrowed from the pension fund? Companies are notorious for borrowing from pension funds. These are the kind of questions our lame brained Congress should be asking. Not how they got to the meetings.
In 1993, IBM announced that it had lost over $8 billion during the prior year - at that time, the largest loss in corporate history. Shortly afterwards, it recruited Lou Gerstner, a marketing guy with no technology background, from RJR Nabisco, where he was the CEO. (Before joining RJR Nabisco, he held marketing positions at American Express.)
Although he was an outsider in a company that traditionally promoted from within, Gerstner turned IBM around & restored it to profitability without breaking it up or resorting to large-scale layoffs. By the late 90s, IBM stock was hitting new highs. (I'm a longtime IBM shareholder, & I consider Gerstner to be one of the most talented American CEOs of the post-WWII era.)
Could Gerstner do the same for GM? I doubt it - I think that GM is too far gone to be saved intact. But he's a marketing genius, & he could separate the gems (Cadillac) from the trash (Pontiac) & restore what's worth saving to profitability.
Don't forget the Wal-Mart greeter!
I think it's more a case that companies underfund or don't pay in if they have financial difficulties. Which IMHO should be a breach of their legal/fiduciary responsibilities.
It should be if it is not. The 1990 ERISA changed much of how Pensions are handled. If GM has $100 b in a separate Pension Fund, that is great. I would think the fiduciary committee should be able to keep the retirees from being left hanging when GM goes bankrupt. Personally that would be my main concern in giving a bailout. To protect those already retired. So let me get this straight. The wage package for the UAW is over $70 and the current retirees are covered by a fully funded pension plan? Something is not adding up. Unless all the excess is going toward the retirees health care plan. In which case they need to be dumped into Medicare and on their own. I think the UAW must be the last of the non government Unions that pay health care for the life of the retiree.
The $70 includes the pension benefits.
FYI-salaried retirees no longer have health care after 65. (as of 1/1/09)
GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers.” Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down $26.65.
In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.
Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
Employer
Active members
Retired members
Surviving spouses
Totals
Chrysler*
48,927
55,183
23,252
127,362
Ford**
58,300
94,824
28,183
181,307
General Motors
73,454
269,614
69,288
412,356
So what will the government do about them next march?
73,454
269,614 retirees
69,288 spouses of retirees
412,356
Wow each working person at GM is supporting 4.5-5 people who are retired.
Maybe we should put a tax on the non-US car builders. That tax can go to help pay the cost of the companies whom they have undercut these years in caring for the retirees of said companies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When Toyota built their first plant and offered a 401K, the Big 3 should have done the same on the next round of contracts with the UAW. They didn't and are now losing their shorts. And expecting US to bail them out of their own lack of foresight.