Didn't Ross Perot sell GM an enormus company here in Dallas? EDS (Electronic Data Systems) isn't exactly a mom and pop with over 70,000 employees. He then founded what is known as Perot Systems.
Who cares if the big 3 have a union, get over it already.(probably none of your business).
When it is our tax dollars it is our business.
The BIG 3 support the government in more ways than mostly any other company.
How? Certainly not income taxes, as you need income for that.
Only thing about conditions is that it should not always be up to everybody else to run the company.
Well the team of Wagoner and Gettlefinger have done a great job, haven't they? And now if it is our money we get a say.
It alot of ways it is up to the company, but also guarantee the payback of that loan(which they have already done)
That means NOTHING. GM is insolvent. I heard today that their market cap is well under $10B, but they want $18B in a loan! They want 2-4x what the market thinks they are worth to save them! And that's assuming they don't come back to the feeding trough for more of MY tax dollars.
With the current Wall Street bailout already in the trillions.., i think the BIG 3 should get a bailout.
I think we should bail out Circuit City. Mervyn's had innocent people there, too. Bail them out. Linens n' Things - my wife misses them. Bail them out. Why is one big company so important if 25 smaller ones are not? Why not just suspend the taxes of everybody for a year, bail us all out! Debt is good!
EDS was one of the money makers GM spun off in 1996. HP is the new proud owner and they have grown to 137,000 this year. Under good management they make a lot of money and employ more people in good jobs than GM.
Face it GM has sold the gold and kept the crap. Probably some money exchanged in off shore accounts to bleed GM to the skeleton it is now. Less than 100,000 employees. At the same time the UAW has sacrificed over a million workers to take care of the few elite over paid ones that are left. Stupidity reigns at GM top to bottom.
But trust me... we've got everything just right this time.
It isn't just me unfortunately. If it was, it wouldn't matter. It's the rest of America that needs to get over it.
One of the reasons GM will still go into BK even with the bailout, is that Wagoner has always moved only after he is forced by some external event. He is very reactive, never proactive. And GM desperately needs a very proactive CEO. Mulalley is much more proactive. Examples of GM's reactivity:
* HHR after PT Cruiser * Camaro after Mustang (recent one) * Volt after Prius and Insight * Malibu after about 25 years of superior Japanese sedans * CTS after about 25 years of superior BMWs * Americans are buying SUVs, no need to develop quality small cars
America to get over it? America has seen this behavior from GM for decades. Even with a bailout, even with an economy that improves by late 2009, GMs market share will continue to fall. GM's reputation is so tarnished that only radical changes can save it.
The radical changes GM needs are: - no hobbling union contracts - new CEO - prune the tree down to only the gems, and there aren't that many - perhaps 33%-50% of current offerings
The Vega was a cheap car, they tried to inject silicone carbide in a futile effort to protect cylinder walls.
Don't forget the rusting bodies, even when they didn't get wet. My friend in college used all his saved money to buy a new Vega, which promptly rusted (I'm in CA where it is dry). That Vega guaranteed that I and many of his friends would never buy a GM product. Take our experience times thousands of people.
If you weren't so cheap you could have gotten a Cosworth Vega.
"Except that GM did not listen to Juran, and the Japanese did. Not only did they not listen to Juran, they actually mocked him out of the USA. Guess where he landed? Japan. The rest is history."
Probably the most influential person in the reconstruction of Japan following the war. The major reason Toyota is about to topple GM as the premier auto maker in the World. The sad part is Deming was here and available to the "know it all" executives at the Big 3.
Just another good reason to let GM liquidate and good people will pick up the pieces and make something of them. Other than the UAW.
I have access to Buick, pal !!! Just shoot me an email of exactly what you want pal, and I can get it. I belong to the #1 dealer group in Michigan, which is the 14th largest group in the U.S. 62' probably now knows whom I work for !!!
450,000 retirees getting benefits when only 96,000 still work there and 35,000 of them are about to be let go. Sounds like America's social security crisis, only it's not gonna happen in 30 years, it's gonna happen in 30 DAYS. What does the likeability of their cars have to do with it? The gov't needs to take the pension responsibility of these people to some degree. The gov't and other companies created the medical capability to extend all the retirees lives and drive up the cost of medical care by inventing procedures that are expensive and can prolong life. When GM hired all the vets who came back from Vietnam for $3.25 an hour, they had no idea that their retirements would cost them a half a $million each.
Anybody know anybody in America collecting a pension from Toyota or Honda?
The gov't and other companies created the medical capability to extend all the retirees lives and drive up the cost of medical care by inventing procedures that are expensive and can prolong life.
So retirees are living longer. Is that the tax payers fault? Michigan has voted in assisted suicide to take care of all those old auto workers tired of living.
GM hired all the vets who came back from Vietnam for $3.25 an hour, they had no idea that their retirements would cost them a half a $million each.
You know I believe you are right. GM management through the years up to today have proven they are not real bright. Ending up with 450,000 retirees on FULL HEALTH CARE is the dumbest thing they could have done. We do have Medicare. It may not be gold plated like the GM plan but we as workers have paid for it throughout our careers. If GM was not pissing away the profits during the last 40 years they would have a huge amount in the Pension fund. That was what the contracts were all about. I say if we have to pay a penny to the retirees the execs at GM should end up in jail.
Just looking at all the money making companies that Wagoner has sold off in his14 years on top makes me question his intelligence. Or maybe he knew exactly what he was doing. In which case it makes him worse than Ken Lay of Enron. Send him to prison would be my vote. Maybe Congress can get to the bottom of the corruption at GM.
it seems you see the same hurricane victims in florida getting bailed out year after year, the Big 3 are only getting a loan and will be paid back so i think it is okay(as they are in the process of restructuring), the u.s. government should invest in a good backbone to jump start the economy and as the same government is allowed to jump start the rest of the world don't forget. i might agree to holding on to the CEOs with a salary of $1 per year and prove themselves further(paying a new CEO's salary could be a hurdle), if not then i don't know if they should accompany Jeffrey K. Skilling(enron) in Waseca, Minnesota. off topic - Hillary may need a bailout btw~
Agreed. After 3 years of red ink, now you sell the jet fleet?? Nice move. At least this tells us that the Government can force some good decisions by playing hard ball with the new business model that will ultimately emerge when the smoke clears.
Did they seek popular opinion for the banking bail out? As if this isn't more about organized labor who supported President Obama, the new commander and chief. This is not up for a bond election as you might think/want. So we have to repeat who cares that organized labor (UAW) is involved in this bail out. Who cares that CEO's are involved in all bail outs? Its outrageous that we didn't have any discussion about using tax money to bail the housing bubble idiots.
Some folks want to pay for a Chevette and drive off in a Corvette. Fact is that UAW member build those Corollas in California. America was building cars way before the Japanese econo boxes arrived, which no normal size American could fit in. They were combination car/coffin because safety wasn't a Toyota concern. Now lets compare what they offered way back in the Vega era and then you might have something.
"Except that GM did not listen to Juran, and the Japanese did. Not only did they not listen to Juran, they actually mocked him out of the USA. Guess where he landed? Japan. The rest is history."
Are you referring to W. Edwards Deming???
Yeah him too....................LMAO.......thats all they teach in business schools these days, Toyota is the darling of business schools, Prior they had TQM. Then something else prior. Unfortunately the lean and Japanese zen fecal matter has been in the Big Three for over ten years and nothing.
schooled AAM's on building cars and sound business practices. But the big shots among the Big three didn't learn a thing. While the UAW's kept putting the clamps on the nuts of the big three, choking them until they had to sell cars at inflated prices and to cut corners on the quality just to keep thier heads above water. By paying auto assemblers what amounts to $80 p/hr and the big shots with thier giant salaries, stock options, bonuses and golden parachutes, how could they compete? By building crappy cars that break down on the way home from the dealer. I've seen brand new autos on the wayside, new vehicles with stop lights, turn signals and headlights out. :lemon: And they wonder why American buy Imports?
Back in the Vega's era, the Japanese competition wasn't all that either! My girlfriend's father was telling me about the orange 1974 Datsun he bought in response to the early '70s fuel crisis. His regular car at the time was a 1966 Ford Galaxie. Anyway, he said the Datsun couldn't keep up with the speed of the other cars on the road and that driving it was a downright scary experience on Philadelphia's notorious Schuylkill Expressway. One day the car threw a connecting rod right throught the hood! The car was only two years old and that was pretty much the end of it. By that time the body was pretty corroded and he didn't feel like fixing it. It was the first and last time he bought a Japanese car.
dallasdude: They were combination car/coffin because safety wasn't a Toyota concern.
And safety was a concern with the Vega and the Pinto? :surprise:
Granted, the Vega probably had a better safety record than a Corolla, because it's hard for a car to be involved in an accident when it's being towed to the repair shop, or sitting in the repair bay.
When you can actually DRIVE the car, it is more likely to be involved in an accident.
dallasdude: Now lets compare what they offered way back in the Vega era and then you might have something.
Unfortunately for GM, many people did just that, and never went back...
dallasdude: Yeah him too....................LMAO.......thats all they teach in business schools these days, Toyota is the darling of business schools, Prior they had TQM.
Keep laughing...Toyota, meanwhile, is laughing all the way to the bank.
It's funny to see that even the very real threat of bankruptcy can't change the thinking of diehard UAW supporters and GM...but then, I'm sure that this is all someone else's fault.
If GM and the UAW were even half as good at making cars as they are at whining and playing the blame game, they'd have sent Toyota back to Japan with its tail between its legs.
>"They were combination car/coffin because safety wasn't a Toyota concern. Now lets compare what they offered way back in the Vega era and then you might have something."
In the Vega era the Japanese offerings were considered by many to be "[non-permissible content removed] Junk". Made from beer cans.
The Corollas were blowing head gaskets with great regularity, clutches didn't last long and the auto trannys had a short life span. Paint fell off and was replaced by rust. They were no better than the Junk the B3 were selling. However, they were less expensive than the UAW offerings and got better fuel mileage.
The biggest difference is that the Japanese were serious about making improvements. The cars got better and better.
Yeah, they had a few problems with some of the carburetors, but nothing to compare with those $1500 POS feeding B3 engines.
There were some other truly great cars like the Corvair and the Pinto. I had one of each of them. Great fuel mileage. 20-21 on the road with careful driving. :sick:
Ralph Nader probably saved a lot of lives when his efforts got the Corvair discontinued. Not only were they unsafe structure wise, but the heating system used hot air from around the air cooled engine. Problem was that the engine tended to leak oil and the vapors found their way into the heating ducts and the inside glass collected the oil mist and had to be cleaned with regularity.
The Pintos tended to explode or at least catch fire if rear ended. Their carburetors were a joke. Let us not forget that wet dream that Pontiac was so proud of. A mid engine 2 seater that was a pot of trouble from inception. Seems it was called the Fieaga or something like that. I was spared that one.
I had a Plymouth Valarie wagon that got 15 miles per gallon on the road and really terrible around town with it's 318 V8. The dealer tried a couple of times to adjust the carburetor. Problem was that they were required to use "Propane" while making the adjustments. Looked like the car was getting a transfusion when they made the adjustments with all the wires and hoses hooked up. Didn't help!
Some of the best vehicles Chrysler had were the Dodge Colt wagon, Pickup, and Hatch back. I had one of each of them and didn't realize at the time that they were made by Mitsubishi. Actually thought I was supporting Detroit. :surprise: No problems with any of them.
Cadillac had a couple of REAL winners . One was the diesel. It shook itself to death and eventually GM was forced to "HELP" the owners replace the diesels with Gas engines. The other was their Variable displacement engines. They had no power and were rough in the displacement transitions. The fix was to disconnect some components so they ran on all 8 all the time. I'm thinking that by then, they were putting Chevy 350 V8 in them, although the customers were paying for Cadillacs.
Owning a Chevy V8 meant a piece of card board or pan of sand in the carport to catch the oil leaking from the Valve covers and rear main bearing and automatic transmissions. And least we not forget about the rubber tipped timing gears. Eventually they would wear or break off and cause excessive noise if we were lucky. Engine failure if we were not so lucky. That is one of the things that happened to our 87 Cutlass.
Point is that while B3 were continuing to build their junk and sell it to "Proud", support Detroit, Americans, the Japanese were quietly improving their products. The japanese did inventive things like Catalytic Converters, and fuel injection. B3 just couldn't get rid of those carburetors that ran so lean that premium fuel was required unless we enjoyed the pinging from the engine. And the timing was so retarded that fuel mileage was still terrible.
Whatever the man's name was, he offered ideas to the B3. They rejected him but Japan didn't. When they put his ideas into operation their reliability and quality increased dramatically. FWIW, IBM rejected him back then also. Although later, IBM did get back with him because they were loosing so much market share to upstart companies.
It absolutely amazes me how the youngsters on these forums attempt to make excuses and comparisons. I was there! I tried with all my might to be a proud owner of Detroit Iron. I tried from 1958 through 1998.
Through the late 60s and some early 70s I still felt that Detroit Iron reined superior. But they proved me wrong after that.
Detroit abandoned me, not me them. Paying a guy installing lug nuts as much as a nurse with a BSRN degree and tons of continued education. The UAW bennefits package is way better than the typical persons in the health field. Yet most of their skill levels are no better, or not as great as the guy working at the tire store,
The B3 "YOU MUST BUY AMERICAN, IT IS THE PATRIOTIC THING TO DO" attitude, just reminds me of how naive I used to be.
The 240Z was more comparable to a Corvette or a Camaro rather than a Vega. The Z had an inline six whereas the Vega a four for one. My girlfriend's Dad's car was something like a B210 or something like that. Still, there aren't many Z survivors around here that didn't hibernate indoors in climate-controlled conditions each winter. I heard Nissan tried to do factory restorations of Zs about ten years ago, but there weren't too many survivors that could be cost-effectively restored. Many had advanced rust that affected the structural integrity of the Z which was a unit-bodied car.
Yup Japan made junk in the 70's. BUT they stopped making junk. Every year the cars got a little better. Eventually, they became known as superior products to their American competition.
When I lived in Japan I had some Japanese Engineers as friends. Once an American friend who was also an engineer came to visit, and we all ended up getting drunk together. In our cups, the conversation stumbled into engineering school and engineering philosophy. Here's what we learned:
Given the same task to improve the design of a given component -
American engineers are trained to approach changes in product from this angle:
How can I give the same functionality but make the piece more cheaply?
Japanese engineers are trained to approach changes in product from a different angle:
How can I improve the piece but not make it more expensive?
Over several generations of design, neither engineer ever completely achieves his goal. However the philosophy ultimately impacts the pieces in the following manner.
The Japanese piece improves, but price creeps up. The American piece remains inexpensive, but quality falls.
I think you can see the impact of these philosophies on car design quite clearly when viewed over the period 1970 to 2008.
After all this discussion, I need to read up on Deming...heck, I just finished DeLorean's book and am now reading "Call Me Roger"...
But, mu limited understanding of Deming simply said that he advocated that if you build it better from the beginning, you will have less warranty cost later, whereas the Big 3 simply believed in high volume at any cost and they would fix it later, no matter how badly the parts fit now...
It brings to mind the adage, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression"...apparently Big 3 did not care about their first impression until the imports came up with a better first impression than they did...
My first and only impression of the Asian imports is of the ugly daughter of one of my Mom's friends whom she tells me has a "nice personality." I don't care how nice she is if I can't stand to even look at her!
The Pontiac in question was the Fiero. And it was a piece of junk in the beginning. But GM improved it, and then, in a typical move, canned it just after the much-improved model hit the market.
The 1981 Cadillac variable displacement V-8 was an all-Cadillac engine. Cadillac didn't begin using the Chevrolet V-8 until later in the 1980s.
And the Japanese did not invent catalytic converters or fuel injection.
And the Japanese did not invent catalytic converters or fuel injection.
Wasn't Honda actually able to get away without using catalytic converters for a few years, because their cars ran cleanly enough to begin with so they didn't need them? Most domestic cars got catalytic converters for 1975, but I thought I read somewhere that Honda was able to get by without them up through 1979?
My 1977 Civic CVCC could use leaded gas, so it didn't have a catalytic converter. Don't know about the 1979 models, though. I seem to recall the emissions standards tightened considerably for either the 1980 or 1981 model year, and thus pretty much forced the use of catalytic converters. The government also wanted to get rid of all leaded gas.
I also recall that some Chrysler and AMC engines did not use catalytic converters in 1975-76.
LTV steel came up with a less rusting steel and they are responsible for your cars not rotting. They are union. Most high end cars have stainless exhaust systems, although they are not pure of carbon. If a magnet will stick to it, it has carbon and might spot rust, however, will not rot like like common steel. Composites were another American invention, which should be used more. Door dings and hail will be a thing of the past when we get the cost down. Yeah a few hoods and body panels currently have composites. The VETT should go entirely to composites. The shuttle leading wing edges and nose cone are made of composites and can take the enormous heat upon re-entry.
Continuous improvement isn't addressing bad engineering coming off the drawing board. They are more of going about of mistake proofing and human error. If the greatest processor of data makes 5 mistakes a day, the post office zip code reader, and the second greatest processor of data makes 4 errors a day, the check clearing house, and an automaker makes 3 mistakes a day, such as GM, and the entire hospital system of the United States makes 1 mistake a day, one patient needlessly dead. Its bad to be that needless mistake at the hospital.
Mistakes are human or are they computer? In any case my spouse gat a flat once. She calls triple A and they changed the tire. About a week later I see the tire wobbling. SOB forgot or didn't care to tighten the lug nuts. The drum brake on that rear tire was almost impossible to take off later when I went to replace the rear brake shoes. Then less than a month ago I took my car in for an oil change at the GM dealership. Then the next oil change the Quik Change advised me that the drain plug was on too tight and they didn't want to risk stripping the threads, So I went to another place and the got the plug off alright, but broke the housing that holds the oil filter cartridge. It clearly stated 3 Newtons (about 75 inch pounds) on the casting. My calls to the GM service manager were never returned, bet you that this same untrained person over tighten everyone he got to and such is life. Whats worse is that they are breeding and feeding. They are not UAW,are under trained, and under paid.
Actually, Cadillac started using the Oldsmobile 307 engine in 1986 through 1989 in the big RWD Brougham. They didn't go to the 305 until 1990. They then went with the 350 or 5.7 V-8 in 1993 and used the awesome LT-1 derived engine in 1994-96. The FWD Cadillac 4.5 and later 4.9 were Cadillac engines.
American engineers are trained to approach changes in product from this angle:
I've been in engineering since 75 and could you please tell what exactly they engineered and or patents their industry hold?
Frankly, I don't think you're going to grasp the point the point of my post, even if I tell you, but let me try. What I have said is really a stating that I saw a real-world demonstration of the American-born (by Demmings) Japanese-applied concept of Kaizen. Kaizen thinking is characterized by many, small improvements over time. It contrasts with the major leaps seen in an industry when radical new technology or production methods have been introduced. Over the years, the sheer volume of Kaizen improvements can lead to major advances, but most changes are small improvements.
Continuous improvement isn't just for the assembly folks. It's for you engineers too. It is a philosophical approach, and it can be applied to any engineering process regardless of the product being made.
As a practical demonstration of the difference in philosophical approaches, let us look at the introductions of the Volt and the Prius.
The Prius was introduced quietly and has been slowly improved over a series of models. It's technology wasn't a big leap as it used currently available technologies, by integrating them. Toyota lost money on them selling them below cost during the development phase, but because there weren't that many of them on the market, the loss wasn't that large. Now, after continuous small improvements the design is good, and the market is ready, costs are down, and profits are good.
The Volt is, instead, announced with great fanfare, creating expectations. It (will be) built on radical new technology that hasn't been fully tested or developed, and so far, hasn't even been completed. It is being hurried into mass production - large numbers on the market as soon as they can be built, and since the cost is high ($40K, GM is cutting little corners where they can, to keep costs down.
Interestingly enough this is the same approach GM took with the Vega. Do you think things might have been different for the Vega if they'd put 5,000 cars in the market for a year and discovered the engine and rust problems while the numbers were small? Instead they took their radical new technology and rammed the sausage maker into full speed ahead.
Which one of these approaches is more likely to produce a large scale failure and which is more likely to produce a more desirable and reliable product?
Frankly, I don't think you're going to grasp the point the point of my post
I'm aware of kaizen events, muda, and all the zen fecal matter. Fact of the matter is that they have been using them in the Big Three for years now. They too have green belts and black belts. I've read many Lean books and seen their impact of large/small, union/non-union, and so forth. You my friend fail to see the real family ties Japanese companies have with their employees/families. Then you also fail to mention their views of CEO pay as do all there large corporations. You just take the ideas you see fitting and discard the rest. Its their culture and not Deming. I've been face to face with these Japanese and at their plants. Then again too, I've been to the UAW plants, including the Saturn experiment, modeled after the Japanese. Didn't take them long to remove that no lay off clause in that contract.
Interestingly enough this is the same approach GM took with the Vega.
3.5 million sludge engines and your still back in the 70s. My friend LTV steel, a union company, made the rust free steel, which rice burners enjoy today.
What's the difference between "Jobs Bank" and being laid off. If you are laid off an collect unemployment... generally that's about 60% of your pay? With Jobs Bank you would be getting say another 35% on top of that, from the union?
Comments
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When it is our tax dollars it is our business.
The BIG 3 support the government in more ways than mostly any other company.
How? Certainly not income taxes, as you need income for that.
Only thing about conditions is that it should not always be up to everybody else to run the company.
Well the team of Wagoner and Gettlefinger have done a great job, haven't they? And now if it is our money we get a say.
It alot of ways it is up to the company, but also guarantee the payback of that loan(which they have already done)
That means NOTHING. GM is insolvent. I heard today that their market cap is well under $10B, but they want $18B in a loan! They want 2-4x what the market thinks they are worth to save them! And that's assuming they don't come back to the feeding trough for more of MY tax dollars.
With the current Wall Street bailout already in the trillions.., i think the BIG 3 should get a bailout.
I think we should bail out Circuit City. Mervyn's had innocent people there, too. Bail them out. Linens n' Things - my wife misses them. Bail them out. Why is one big company so important if 25 smaller ones are not? Why not just suspend the taxes of everybody for a year, bail us all out! Debt is good!
Face it GM has sold the gold and kept the crap. Probably some money exchanged in off shore accounts to bleed GM to the skeleton it is now. Less than 100,000 employees. At the same time the UAW has sacrificed over a million workers to take care of the few elite over paid ones that are left. Stupidity reigns at GM top to bottom.
It isn't just me unfortunately. If it was, it wouldn't matter. It's the rest of America that needs to get over it.
One of the reasons GM will still go into BK even with the bailout, is that Wagoner has always moved only after he is forced by some external event. He is very reactive, never proactive. And GM desperately needs a very proactive CEO. Mulalley is much more proactive. Examples of GM's reactivity:
* HHR after PT Cruiser
* Camaro after Mustang (recent one)
* Volt after Prius and Insight
* Malibu after about 25 years of superior Japanese sedans
* CTS after about 25 years of superior BMWs
* Americans are buying SUVs, no need to develop quality small cars
America to get over it? America has seen this behavior from GM for decades. Even with a bailout, even with an economy that improves by late 2009, GMs market share will continue to fall. GM's reputation is so tarnished that only radical changes can save it.
The radical changes GM needs are:
- no hobbling union contracts
- new CEO
- prune the tree down to only the gems, and there aren't that many - perhaps 33%-50% of current offerings
Don't forget the rusting bodies, even when they didn't get wet. My friend in college used all his saved money to buy a new Vega, which promptly rusted (I'm in CA where it is dry). That Vega guaranteed that I and many of his friends would never buy a GM product. Take our experience times thousands of people.
If you weren't so cheap you could have gotten a Cosworth Vega.
Was that a polished turd?
Not only did they not listen to Juran, they actually mocked him out of the USA.
Guess where he landed? Japan. The rest is history."
Are you referring to W. Edwards Deming???
Probably the most influential person in the reconstruction of Japan following the war. The major reason Toyota is about to topple GM as the premier auto maker in the World. The sad part is Deming was here and available to the "know it all" executives at the Big 3.
Just another good reason to let GM liquidate and good people will pick up the pieces and make something of them. Other than the UAW.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Anybody know anybody in America collecting a pension from Toyota or Honda?
So retirees are living longer. Is that the tax payers fault? Michigan has voted in assisted suicide to take care of all those old auto workers tired of living.
GM hired all the vets who came back from Vietnam for $3.25 an hour, they had no idea that their retirements would cost them a half a $million each.
You know I believe you are right. GM management through the years up to today have proven they are not real bright. Ending up with 450,000 retirees on FULL HEALTH CARE is the dumbest thing they could have done. We do have Medicare. It may not be gold plated like the GM plan but we as workers have paid for it throughout our careers. If GM was not pissing away the profits during the last 40 years they would have a huge amount in the Pension fund. That was what the contracts were all about. I say if we have to pay a penny to the retirees the execs at GM should end up in jail.
lemko, as far as I know Mr. Lutz, is still around. 62' can answer your question !!!
-Rocky
i might agree to holding on to the CEOs with a salary of $1 per year and prove themselves further(paying a new CEO's salary could be a hurdle), if not then i don't know if they should accompany Jeffrey K. Skilling(enron) in Waseca, Minnesota.
off topic - Hillary may need a bailout btw~
Have they sent out the info sheets on the new LaCrosse? I have not seen them.
Dealerworld only has the old one yet.
Regards,
OW
What question?
Did they seek popular opinion for the banking bail out? As if this isn't more about organized labor who supported President Obama, the new commander and chief. This is not up for a bond election as you might think/want. So we have to repeat who cares that organized labor (UAW) is involved in this bail out. Who cares that CEO's are involved in all bail outs? Its outrageous that we didn't have any discussion about using tax money to bail the housing bubble idiots.
Not only did they not listen to Juran, they actually mocked him out of the USA.
Guess where he landed? Japan. The rest is history."
Are you referring to W. Edwards Deming???
Yeah him too....................LMAO.......thats all they teach in business schools these days, Toyota is the darling of business schools, Prior they had TQM. Then something else prior. Unfortunately the lean and Japanese zen fecal matter has been in the Big Three for over ten years and nothing.
By paying auto assemblers what amounts to $80 p/hr and the big shots with thier giant salaries, stock options, bonuses and golden parachutes, how could they compete?
By building crappy cars that break down on the way home from the dealer. I've seen brand new autos on the wayside, new vehicles with stop lights, turn signals and headlights out. :lemon:
And they wonder why American buy Imports?
And get a car that has a slightly more reliable drivetrain, and the same crappy body and interior ergonomics.
In this case, not buying a more expensive Vega proves that being cheap can be a very good thing.
And safety was a concern with the Vega and the Pinto? :surprise:
Granted, the Vega probably had a better safety record than a Corolla, because it's hard for a car to be involved in an accident when it's being towed to the repair shop, or sitting in the repair bay.
When you can actually DRIVE the car, it is more likely to be involved in an accident.
dallasdude: Now lets compare what they offered way back in the Vega era and then you might have something.
Unfortunately for GM, many people did just that, and never went back...
Keep laughing...Toyota, meanwhile, is laughing all the way to the bank.
It's funny to see that even the very real threat of bankruptcy can't change the thinking of diehard UAW supporters and GM...but then, I'm sure that this is all someone else's fault.
If GM and the UAW were even half as good at making cars as they are at whining and playing the blame game, they'd have sent Toyota back to Japan with its tail between its legs.
In the Vega era the Japanese offerings were considered by many to be "[non-permissible content removed] Junk".
Made from beer cans.
The Corollas were blowing head gaskets with great regularity, clutches didn't last long and the auto trannys had a short life span. Paint fell off and was replaced by rust. They were no better than the Junk the B3 were selling. However, they were less expensive than the UAW offerings and got better fuel mileage.
The biggest difference is that the Japanese were serious about making improvements. The cars got better and better.
Yeah, they had a few problems with some of the carburetors, but nothing to compare with those $1500 POS feeding B3 engines.
There were some other truly great cars like the Corvair and the Pinto. I had one of each of them. Great fuel mileage. 20-21 on the road with careful driving. :sick:
Ralph Nader probably saved a lot of lives when his efforts got the Corvair discontinued. Not only were they unsafe structure wise, but the heating system used hot air from around the air cooled engine. Problem was that the engine tended to leak oil and the vapors found their way into the heating ducts and the inside glass collected the oil mist and had to be cleaned with regularity.
The Pintos tended to explode or at least catch fire if rear ended. Their carburetors were a joke. Let us not forget that wet dream that Pontiac was so proud of. A mid engine 2 seater that was a pot of trouble from inception. Seems it was called the Fieaga or something like that. I was spared that one.
I had a Plymouth Valarie wagon that got 15 miles per gallon on the road and really terrible around town with it's 318 V8. The dealer tried a couple of times to adjust the carburetor. Problem was that they were required to use "Propane" while making the adjustments. Looked like the car was getting a transfusion when they made the adjustments with all the wires and hoses hooked up. Didn't help!
Some of the best vehicles Chrysler had were the Dodge Colt wagon, Pickup, and Hatch back. I had one of each of them and didn't realize at the time that they were made by Mitsubishi. Actually thought I was supporting Detroit. :surprise:
No problems with any of them.
Cadillac had a couple of REAL winners . One was the diesel. It shook itself to death and eventually GM was forced to "HELP" the owners replace the diesels with Gas engines. The other was their Variable displacement engines. They had no power and were rough in the displacement transitions. The fix was to disconnect some components so they ran on all 8 all the time. I'm thinking that by then, they were putting Chevy 350 V8 in them, although the customers were paying for Cadillacs.
Owning a Chevy V8 meant a piece of card board or pan of sand in the carport to catch the oil leaking from the Valve covers and rear main bearing and automatic transmissions. And least we not forget about the rubber tipped timing gears. Eventually they would wear or break off and cause excessive noise if we were lucky. Engine failure if we were not so lucky. That is one of the things that happened to our 87 Cutlass.
Point is that while B3 were continuing to build their junk and sell it to "Proud", support Detroit, Americans, the Japanese were quietly improving their products. The japanese did inventive things like Catalytic Converters, and fuel injection. B3 just couldn't get rid of those carburetors that ran so lean that premium fuel was required unless we enjoyed the pinging from the engine. And the timing was so retarded that fuel mileage was still terrible.
Whatever the man's name was, he offered ideas to the B3. They rejected him but Japan didn't. When they put his ideas into operation their reliability and quality increased dramatically. FWIW, IBM rejected him back then also. Although later, IBM did get back with him because they were loosing so much market share to upstart companies.
It absolutely amazes me how the youngsters on these forums attempt to make excuses and comparisons. I was there! I tried with all my might to be a proud owner of Detroit Iron. I tried from 1958 through 1998.
Through the late 60s and some early 70s I still felt that Detroit Iron reined superior. But they proved me wrong after that.
Detroit abandoned me, not me them. Paying a guy installing lug nuts as much as a nurse with a BSRN degree and tons of continued education. The UAW bennefits package is way better than the typical persons in the health field.
Yet most of their skill levels are no better, or not as great as the guy working at the tire store,
The B3 "YOU MUST BUY AMERICAN, IT IS THE PATRIOTIC THING TO DO" attitude, just reminds me of how naive I used to be.
Kip
Nissan introduced this car in 1970.
And you compare that to a Vega? uhhh ok.
The Z had an inline six whereas the Vega a four for one. My girlfriend's Dad's car was something like a B210 or something like that. Still, there aren't many Z survivors around here that didn't hibernate indoors in climate-controlled conditions each winter. I heard Nissan tried to do factory restorations of Zs about ten years ago, but there weren't too many survivors that could be cost-effectively restored. Many had advanced rust that affected the structural integrity of the Z which was a unit-bodied car.
When I lived in Japan I had some Japanese Engineers as friends. Once an American friend who was also an engineer came to visit, and we all ended up getting drunk together. In our cups, the conversation stumbled into engineering school and engineering philosophy. Here's what we learned:
Given the same task to improve the design of a given component -
American engineers are trained to approach changes in product from this angle:
How can I give the same functionality but make the piece more cheaply?
Japanese engineers are trained to approach changes in product from a different angle:
How can I improve the piece but not make it more expensive?
Over several generations of design, neither engineer ever completely achieves his goal. However the philosophy ultimately impacts the pieces in the following manner.
The Japanese piece improves, but price creeps up.
The American piece remains inexpensive, but quality falls.
I think you can see the impact of these philosophies on car design quite clearly when viewed over the period 1970 to 2008.
But, mu limited understanding of Deming simply said that he advocated that if you build it better from the beginning, you will have less warranty cost later, whereas the Big 3 simply believed in high volume at any cost and they would fix it later, no matter how badly the parts fit now...
It brings to mind the adage, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression"...apparently Big 3 did not care about their first impression until the imports came up with a better first impression than they did...
And now they are paying for it...
I've been in engineering since 75 and could you please tell what exactly they engineered and or patents their industry hold?
The Pontiac in question was the Fiero. And it was a piece of junk in the beginning. But GM improved it, and then, in a typical move, canned it just after the much-improved model hit the market.
The 1981 Cadillac variable displacement V-8 was an all-Cadillac engine. Cadillac didn't begin using the Chevrolet V-8 until later in the 1980s.
And the Japanese did not invent catalytic converters or fuel injection.
Wasn't Honda actually able to get away without using catalytic converters for a few years, because their cars ran cleanly enough to begin with so they didn't need them? Most domestic cars got catalytic converters for 1975, but I thought I read somewhere that Honda was able to get by without them up through 1979?
I also recall that some Chrysler and AMC engines did not use catalytic converters in 1975-76.
Do you think they would have sold the fleet if it were not for the public humiliation? I doubt it. Another example of poor priorities.
Agreed. The government would say that there wasn't enough time, which may be the case.
Continuous improvement isn't addressing bad engineering coming off the drawing board. They are more of going about of mistake proofing and human error. If the greatest processor of data makes 5 mistakes a day, the post office zip code reader, and the second greatest processor of data makes 4 errors a day, the check clearing house, and an automaker makes 3 mistakes a day, such as GM, and the entire hospital system of the United States makes 1 mistake a day, one patient needlessly dead. Its bad to be that needless mistake at the hospital.
Mistakes are human or are they computer? In any case my spouse gat a flat once. She calls triple A and they changed the tire. About a week later I see the tire wobbling. SOB forgot or didn't care to tighten the lug nuts. The drum brake on that rear tire was almost impossible to take off later when I went to replace the rear brake shoes. Then less than a month ago I took my car in for an oil change at the GM dealership. Then the next oil change the Quik Change advised me that the drain plug was on too tight and they didn't want to risk stripping the threads, So I went to another place and the got the plug off alright, but broke the housing that holds the oil filter cartridge. It clearly stated 3 Newtons (about 75 inch pounds) on the casting. My calls to the GM service manager were never returned, bet you that this same untrained person over tighten everyone he got to and such is life. Whats worse is that they are breeding and feeding. They are not UAW,are under trained, and under paid.
Do you think they would have sold the fleet if it were not for the public humiliation? I doubt it. Another example of poor priorities.
They sold 2 about 5 months ago and 2 more just recently.
The GM jets were leased. They didn't own them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've been in engineering since 75 and could you please tell what exactly they engineered and or patents their industry hold?
Frankly, I don't think you're going to grasp the point the point of my post, even if I tell you, but let me try. What I have said is really a stating that I saw a real-world demonstration of the American-born (by Demmings) Japanese-applied concept of Kaizen. Kaizen thinking is characterized by many, small improvements over time. It contrasts with the major leaps seen in an industry when radical new technology or production methods have been introduced. Over the years, the sheer volume of Kaizen improvements can lead to major advances, but most changes are small improvements.
Continuous improvement isn't just for the assembly folks. It's for you engineers too.
It is a philosophical approach, and it can be applied to any engineering process regardless of the product being made.
As a practical demonstration of the difference in philosophical approaches, let us look at the introductions of the Volt and the Prius.
The Prius was introduced quietly and has been slowly improved over a series of models. It's technology wasn't a big leap as it used currently available technologies, by integrating them. Toyota lost money on them selling them below cost during the development phase, but because there weren't that many of them on the market, the loss wasn't that large. Now, after continuous small improvements the design is good, and the market is ready, costs are down, and profits are good.
The Volt is, instead, announced with great fanfare, creating expectations. It (will be) built on radical new technology that hasn't been fully tested or developed, and so far, hasn't even been completed. It is being hurried into mass production - large numbers on the market as soon as they can be built, and since the cost is high ($40K, GM is cutting little corners where they can, to keep costs down.
Interestingly enough this is the same approach GM took with the Vega. Do you think things might have been different for the Vega if they'd put 5,000 cars in the market for a year and discovered the engine and rust problems while the numbers were small? Instead they took their radical new technology and rammed the sausage maker into full speed ahead.
Which one of these approaches is more likely to produce a large scale failure and which is more likely to produce a more desirable and reliable product?
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I'm aware of kaizen events, muda, and all the zen fecal matter. Fact of the matter is that they have been using them in the Big Three for years now. They too have green belts and black belts. I've read many Lean books and seen their impact of large/small, union/non-union, and so forth. You my friend fail to see the real family ties Japanese companies have with their employees/families. Then you also fail to mention their views of CEO pay as do all there large corporations. You just take the ideas you see fitting and discard the rest. Its their culture and not Deming. I've been face to face with these Japanese and at their plants. Then again too, I've been to the UAW plants, including the Saturn experiment, modeled after the Japanese. Didn't take them long to remove that no lay off clause in that contract.
Interestingly enough this is the same approach GM took with the Vega.
3.5 million sludge engines and your still back in the 70s. My friend LTV steel, a union company, made the rust free steel, which rice burners enjoy today.