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A large Soviet integrated steel mill would employ 50,000. A similar American one would employ 10,000. This was back in the heyday of Big Steel. I imagine the Chinese still use the old Soviet model.
I have been thinking the same thing. With all the social / politcal / economic issues at heart with these stupid bailouts, err I mean handouts, I wouldn't think that some kind of civil unrest in the not too distant future would be unheard of.
steve: burying me in links is no threat...apparently EVERYONE here knows how to link except me...this is what happens when you drop out of school in the 3rd grade, you grow up unable to link on the Internet...they warned me about this 20 years ago, but did I listen???...no, so now I am off to my job at the Jobs Bank, where the donuts are fresh and the coffee is hot... :P
In 1930 GDP fell 9.4%
In 1931 GDP fell 8.5%
In 1932 GDP fell 13.4%
FDR took office in March 1933
In 1933 GDP fell 2.1%
In 1934 GDP rose 7.7%
In 1935 GDP rose 8.1%
In 1936 GDP rose 14.1%
In 1937 GDP rose 5.0%
In 1938 GDP fell 4.5%
In 1939 GDP rose 7.9%
Only problem is that you need to compare those figures to figures from 1921-28, with an adjustment for inflation, to get a real idea of whether Roosevelt's policies brought back a true recovery.
The economy had contracted so much from 1929-1933 that the increases in the mid-1930s were from a very low base...and still didn't bring the economy back to where it was in the mid-1920s.
The economy was limping along until the stimulus of war production brought about a recovery in 1940-41. And unemployment was still in the double digits throughout the 1930s.
The footnotes to that chart explain how the measurement of the unemployment rate has changed over the years.
Estimates prior to 1940 are based on sources other than direct enumeration.
Data prior to 1948 are for persons age 14 and over.
Data beginning in 1948 are for persons age 16 and over.
Beginning in January 2006, data are not strictly comparable with data for 2005 and earlier years because of the revisions in the population controls used in the household survey.
So, I'm not seeing any change in the measurement from the 1920s to the eve of World War II - the relevant period for the sake of determining the effectiveness of Roosevelt's New Deal policies - that skews the results or makes comparisons impossible.
Speaking of Detroit theaters, the Michigan has been nicely repurposed:
GM's Vauxhall Offers Workers Innovative Furlough Plan (AutoObserver)
I'm assuming this includes line workers and not just white collar employees.
may be admirable, but really have nothing to do with what makes Detroit tick, or, what used to make Detroit tick...I have been to the Fox...nice place...so what???
The best way to see Detroit is in your rear view mirror...I defy ANYONE to find anything good to say about the City of Detroit, and rocky doesn't count...
I think I found good things to say about Detroit. Theater is vibrant and Detroit has some of the best places to go. Thats what.
To make those image links work you have to find a picture linked to just an URL. Sometimes you can right click on a website photo and open in a new window/tab and just the pic shows up. Now hit the img button, paste the link and then close it by hitting the img buttan again. If a jpeg or other kind of file comes up and not a web link it will not work.
Hard work is always appreciated, but that does not translate to a "tenure" where everything is guaranteed.
For the education I have, I am sure you would also appreciate that it did not come free, in terms of dollars and sacrifice. In order to get my higher education, I studied nights and weekends, effectively making my kids prisoners in my own home, when I could have been taking them on vacations and theme parks all those time. Instead, they watched TV at home, while I studied in the library and/or bedroom. My first job in this country started in December in NJ. I had no car since I did not have money to get the lessons. I used to walk, along the highways, to work with a fat long jacket adorned, that I got at a Burlington coat factory on clearance.
Nobody has had it easy, except for very few kids of rich parents. If anybody is under that impression that they deserve it more than others, let him/her be enlightened.
>Education is an asset and most certainly will get you more out of life. The great minds, those who can do the math and science, aren't just a matter of going to school.
Hello....I said Intelligent class of people. Education does not always translate to intelligence, but then there is no other standard for anybody to measure up somebody else. The best businessmen are not a result of a Harvard MBA. They can only be CEO, COO.....etc. Most great businesses are founded by intelligent people who would rather start working on their business than "waste" time getting a diploma or a degree.
From here only. I do not know any UAW person on my own.
That said, I am not against the UAW guy making good money. One should get paid what the market can bear. To demand a pay that goes against market sense, is nonsensical.
You and rocky WILL be the only two people left, so why not cut the cost of your telephone and simply share a party line???... :P
Is the artist saying that UAW is a Monkey brain ??? :sick: Ha ha
It isn't just the cars: Lawmakers say executives are 'lemons,' too (McClatchy)
although not in detroit, i really enjoy going to the henry ford museum/greenfield village. the sense of respect for us history is pretty moving for me.
a lot of great old cars, trains, plus a lot of industrial equipment.
where else can you see the wright brothers bicycle shop or thomas edisons menlo park lab? there are even houses from connecticut.
HF Museum is certainly a sight to see, anyone with respect for history or simply in the auto field would love the Museum and Greenfield Village..
I am quite sure that as Detroit becomes irrelevant that the Museum may become irrelevant, too...while it is a beautiful perspective on history, it, alone, is rarely a reason to travel to Dearborn/Detroit...
In addition to the UAW and automotive woes, a lot of the deterioration is/was simply due to issues that cannot be discussed in these forums...
http://www.aviationheritagearea.org/wrightCenter.htm
It's a replica of the shop with rebuild of early models under Orville's supervision. Also early planes are at the Air Force Museum, Dayton, OH along with the prairie where the Wrights tested their planes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
i am always in a hurry to get to oxford or head back out the other way.
Saw White Christmas (musical play) at Fox. Only half full but last year was packed.
All 3 are completely restored and were doing well.
While a lot of Detroit city is old and not doing well there actually was a lot of new homes going up. Tearing down of whole neighborhoods and very nice houses gong up.
So the housing boom of the 21st Century has had some pluses for Detroit. I think the pics of all the old buildings falling apart was taken in the 1990s.
The whole setup was based on continued growth in car sales. Of course they tanked faster when sales fell off abruptly in June of 2008. How can the sales growth that ended in late 70's ever return?
Funny how Toyota claims to offer the best value in the industry 20 different times during the Giants-Dallas game last night. They state 'low rates' for full price cars as their reason. meanwhile Nissan advertised 0% interest, Ford is offering employee prices, and Chevy has $5750 discounts on base Malibus. With sales down 40%, Toyota is only willing to adjust the interest rate down a tiny bit and they call it the Toyotathon? Maybe Mulaly makes 7 million a year, but that is maybe one weeks worth of Toyota's additional advertising, compared to Ford's.
What about them? Their pension is funded if GM goes belly up. They will have to go on Medicare like the rest of US retired folks. GM and the UAW screwed them with those contracts that pay as you go rather than setting aside for the future. It is a sad reality. UAW was set up like a government job without the printing press to just print more money. Now they are broke and no way out of their dilemma. The retirees should file a class action suit against the UAW for agreeing to that kind of an agreement.
"What about them? Their pension is funded if GM goes belly up. They will have to go on Medicare like the rest of US retired folks. GM and the UAW screwed them with those contracts that pay as you go rather than setting aside for the future. It is a sad reality. UAW was set up like a government job without the printing press to just print more money. Now they are broke and no way out of their dilemma. The retirees should file a class action suit against the UAW for agreeing to that kind of an agreement. "
Walter Reuther would be shedding tears.
The problem with this is the method of comparing. Are they using the bloated cost factor which includes the cost of the retirees' checks and healthcare? Or are they going to use what the worker gets in their check to take home? I didn't hear that stated (not that it wasn't stated). Does anyone here know?
The statements keep being put out the current pay is less, slightly, than the foreign brands workers' pay. What's the real data on that?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Does anyone here know?
Either the southern Republicans did not know or do not care. They are using any stick to shut down the north. They have thrown their lot in with the import transplants in their states. By the time the final negotiating was going on they knew that the UAW wages were at parity if not lower. Job banks would have been dead. Health care was planned to be self paid by the UAW but the domestics have to put in large amounts of cash and I think that was the sticking point.
At the first hearing it was obvious our representatives were as unprepared as the CEO's. CEO's had no idea that what was going to be thrown at them and most of the reps had no idea what they were talking about.
The South will rise again! At least until they run out of water.
Poor babies. The folks in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky all feel sorry for them having lost a few jobs like that. Imagine if they were in OH, IN, MI, or KY with all the jobs lost through the last decade.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Frankly, I don't think the economy is going to recover fast enough for a few billion to keep GM's suppliers afloat. Remember, it's never about money in the bank, it's about cash flow. You can run a company on a negative net income for a long, long time, if you have cash flow. But, if the cash stops coming in, even for a day - it's trouble in Motor City.
So, what's the answer?
Let's look at cost cutting measures.
You can stop development but that has long term consequences and should be avoided.... and it doesn't have much immediate impact on costs. Bad Idea, especially when your competitors are producing new products.
You can stop producing product, but that only saves material costs for GM; since they have to pay their workers the same amount even if they are not working, the labor costs continue
The single largest controllable (sic re GM) expense for any employer is labor. The best way to proceed is to increase productivity per worker. However, current work rules prevent that, and, in any case, no one is buying the product, so increased efficiency really gains nothing in the short run.
This takes us to reducing current costs by reducing work force. You can cut management staff, and engineering staff, and this should be done. It's a desperation move to cut engineers (they're your future) but in this situation -they've gotta go.
In most companies management employees are a cost to the company disproportional to their number as each is more expensive than the hourly paid worker. However the market salary for an engineer is the market salary for an engineer, even in GM. They're well enough paid but not getting rich.
In this case, what has happened to GM is that the pay of the average worker has risen to be the equivalent of a lower level manager or engineer. Combine this with the fact that a. the workers are replaceable with comparatively short training periods (they don't need to go get engineering degrees to do their jobs). b. You need to stop producing product that isn't selling. c. These workers in GM are an expense even if they are only sitting in the Jobs Bank playing cards.
The only way for GM to shed workers (given the Jobs Bank) is to either get the UAW to change its tune and permit it, or to go through bankruptcy to force the UAW's hand.
The UAW won't agree to work force cuts. Even if there were work rule changes to improve productivity, it won't help when you have to keep paying the unproductive workers.
Ergo - Bankruptcy is the only answer.
The UAW won't agree to work force cuts. Even if there were work rule changes to improve productivity, it won't help when you have to keep paying the unproductive workers.
Job banks are already pretty much gone and soon to be out of the picture.
Currently, Chrysler has 711 workers in the jobs bank, GM has 1,404 and Ford has 1,476.
"It's not gone yet but it's almost gone," Gettelfinger said. "We're on the verge of eliminating that provision." And new language in the 2007 contract stripped it to a "mere shadow of what it used to be."
Gm has been getting rid of hourly employees since at least 2006 with UAW concurrence.
2006
In one of the largest buyout plans in U.S. corporate history, General Motors (GM) will offer money to about 126,000 hourly employees at its plants and at supplier Delphi (DPHIQ) to quit their jobs.GM will offer buyouts to all its United Auto Workers employees, about 113,000, a crucial step toward saving itself financially. The world's largest automaker said in November that it wants to shed 30,000 blue-collar workers.
About 35,000 hourly workers at General Motors Corp. have taken buyout or early retirement offers, surpassing the company's expectations as it tries to cut costs by paring its hourly work force, GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said Monday.
2008
General Motors offered buyouts to all of its 74,000 US hourly employees as the automotive giant continues to downsize operations in response to declining US market share and massive financial losses. With the collaboration of the United Auto Workers union, the automaker plans to push out tens of thousands of higher-paid senior workers, replacing most of them with new hires making half the wages and far fewer benefits.
More than 18,000 of GM’s U.S. hourly workers or about a quarter of its American blue-collar work force have accepted the automaker’s buyout packages, the company announced today. Most of the employees are expected to be gone by July 1, 2008.
So by July it looks like UAW went from 126,000 employees in 2006 to 56,000. BUT GM has been hiring new UAW employees at greatly reduced wages and benefits.
It would take more than a few Southern Senators to stop the bailout. There are at least 41 Senators that are against it or it would pass. There is resistance to bailing GM out without concessions with a time frame by the UAW. Everything is in the future. Well the future for GM is NOW. I just read somewhere that at least 12,000 workers were still being paid in the jobs bank. When does it end forever? When will all the retirees start paying their own health care? Gettlefinger and the UAW gave nothing in those hearings. Only open ended promises with nothing solid that will help cure the ills at GM. If GM does not have the money to pay into the VEBA. That will be one of the debts that get looked at under a C11 bankruptcy. Along with the other $66 billion they currently owe some entity.
However, what does that leave for GM to do, if they've already cut labor costs like that?
What's the answer? This is even more depressing than I thought.
What they all can do though is hunker down and try and ride it out. Look for more plant closings and layoffs in both hourly and salarieds. The UAW will have to look at letting more go w/o huge buy outs from their companies and look for health care interruptions at the UAW. GM has been heavily cutting cost for 6 years in all areas. 80% of the reported losses were due to this restructuring. It will continue.
Not sure what you are talking about. Who did not pay into Social Security and not have Medicare? What is SSD and SSI?
All GM salaried's current and future retirees have lost their health care as of 65. The hourly could do the same thing? I am not that familiar with the medicare but I do know that the retirees are buying some other kind of insurance to increase coverage over the Medicare
OK I looked up SSI and SSD. SSI is for those who did not work enough to get SS benefits for disabilities before you reach the age of 65. SSD is for those who did work long enough to full disability benefits. Not sure how this plays into GM workforce. I know I paid into SS for my entire life.
http://marthachurchill.com/ssissd.htm
Well, 12,000 employees at, let's say, $50K/year would be $600mill/year (did I get that right?). There's some cash flow.
It's interesting that the foreign automakers in the US (Toyota anyway) aren't laying permanent people off or putting them into a "jobs bank." They are paying employees full salary and shifting them to other work at the factory, from maintenance and cleaning to yard work.
That costs Toyota 5% more than putting someone in a UAW Jobs Bank at 95% of their salary.
Of course, if you are a temp at Toyota, then it's sayonara.
After all, pensions are heavily invested in the stock market.