I also see those service jobs getting exported to India, as well. Sure unemployment is low but people are making less today in real wages than they were a decade plus ago and that includes company's cuts in benefits and the overall cost of living. Wages have not even came close to keeping up.
Wages have not kept up with inflation for the last 40 years. I made $11k in 1970 working for the phone company. I was able to buy a new home for $25k and a new PU truck for $2000.
In 2005 I made $105k the same house 36 years later is selling for $650k and a new PU truck for $30k. Food and gas have not hit us as bad as the big items.
To keep up with inflation I should have been making $250K plus a year.
UAW members are not over paid. Upper level managers are over paid. CEOs are way overpaid. Workers need to unite if they want to survive. Not just at Toyota, but Wally World, Kroger & Safeway. I think if you look closely the only large companies that appreciate their employees are the oil companies. They have managed to keep out most Unions by paying good wages and benefits. Microsoft is also an exception, paying higher than average to keep good employees.
We pay less, in inflation adjusted dollars, for food and clothing then we did in 1960.
Gasoline hit its peak price - adjusted for inflation - in March 1981. It may have finally bested that price since last year.
Housing is another matter entirely, but that is based on factors such as demographics, speculation by "flippers" and the self-segregation of people into certain neighborhoods, based on the quality of schools and crime rates.
For example, I recall reading that a house in the Benedict Canyon area of Beverly Hills sold for $82,000 in the mid-1960s. My parents' built their home in 1966 in central Pennsylvania, and the cost was $25,000 - or a little less than 1/3 the price of the Beverly Hills house.
Fast forward to the mid-1990s, and the Beverly Hills house sold for over $2 million. Is my parents' house worth a little less than 1/3 of that price? No way, and they don't live in a depressed area. Quite the opposite. Something more than the rate of inflation is pushing up the price of Southern California real estate, and it isn't just occurring in the posh sections of Southern California.
The areas I am most familiar with Alaska, California and Hawaii have all gone crazy. I can tell you another reason for CA prices besides the flippers and lending institutions is retirees. Many folks want to live where it is warm. The Southwest offers that. As prices escalated in So Ca they have moved to Phoenix and Las Vegas. We were under built in the 1990s and now the pendulum is swinging the other way.
It is all over California. There are many cities now that have to subsidize teachers and police housing so they can afford to live where they work. Silicon Valley being the prime example.
Man $11 an hour in 1970, would make you a very well off finacially. Holy Smokes, those wages were almost un heard of back then weren't they ? It's been nice and educational listening to you old timers on past prices as my family has really never put it into perspective like you guys have taught me. If I could of go back into the past and gobbled up real estate for my family back in the 1960's I'd be rich today.
How much did a Cadillac cost in the early 70's ? I know UAW workers made good but they weren't leading the pack in wages as so many other company's made more than them. However they weren't poor either. I can only put it in perspective of my childhood as our new home in 1986' in Wayland, Mi. I thing dad paid $62,000. That same home is probably worth now $120K+. My mom in step-dad in 92 or 93 baught their home for $77K in Wyoming, Mi. Now that same home is worth between $160-$170K. :surprise: I know UAW wages or wages in general have not even came close to keep up with the cost of living. It's crazy. My father's property he baught from my grandparents on the lake in the late 90's has more than doubled. It's like worth 2 1/2 times what he paid for it. :surprise: However my dad and step-dad almost have it paid for from what I understand.
I made $11,000 for the year. My hourly was only $5.25 I think a Cadillac was around $7000 in 1970. It was not a car I could afford. The early 1970s were very high growth. Houses went up very fast. I am sure the UAW guys were making more than I was. I moved to Alaska and doubled my wages in one year. Houses were double also. I bought a new Datsun PU in Anchorage for $2200 in 1971.
An interesting turn of events was the Company that hired me and brought me to Alaska, RCA Global Communications wanted us to go Teamsters, which we did. They found it easier to deal with one wage scale in each classification.
So are you a retired Teamster, gagrice ? If so you have one helluva a pension, as my uncle is getting close to retirement and his pension is quite a bit better than my fathers.
My retirement is pretty good. I have a friend that retired just before I did from the Operating Engineers. He gets $7200 a month and is only 54 years old. He was to the point it made no sense to work. He has a beautiful home here in Hawaii and one in Alaska. Most kids today are just not in tuned to getting a good job that has good retirement benefits. If they were you would see them uniting against these mega corporations. If you have to work for someone else make sure you get some kind of retirement plan. Then leave it in place do not spend it. I see people pulling money out to buy a car or house too many times.
Well I'm taking 62's gentlemens bet he made with you as faith that I will not see Chinese, made GM cars on my soil.
The AVEO, can blow up for all I care. That goes for all the other cracker box, sardine cans, from South Korea. The Hyundai/Kia workers are unionized but the country has a poor human rights record. The average guy/gal works more hours and longer weeks than any other country in the world. I believe the average person works 60 something hours a week and 72 hour work weeks aren't on common. It's basically work that long or be fired. Well enough about South Korea, before I get side tracked.
Where is your evidence that Chrysler, is going to import Chinese, automobiles ???? The last I new Kerkorkian and the UAW were going to team up and buy Chrysler from Diamler Benz. Do you really think the UAW, is going to allow a company they partially own to sell non-union Chinese, made automobiles. I think not !!!
Now Rock, you are all heated up and emotional, and you are getting ahead of yourself. Don't do that on my account, OK?
First of all, the UAW doesn't own any part of anything at Chrysler yet, there is speculation and that's all. And Kerkorian won't be any more successful at buying Chrysler than he was at taking over GM last year.
Secondly, Chrysler has already released news to the press that it intends to join into a deal with SAIC in China to produce "a small car for U.S. sale". Everyone figures it has to be the new Hornet that made such a splash as a concept, but that is not set in stone. I just used the name as shorthand. It could be something else, but Chrysler has said it will be a small car, for U.S. sale. Now, if some capital group like Magna or Cerberus buys Chrysler, everything in the works could be put on hold, of course.
I will add that having read through the posts here, I am convinced that the UAW will not successfully unionize the Kentucky plant or any of Toyota's other plants either. But this is a personal conviction which I will not attempt to support by jumping into the heavy politics being discussed in this thread. I shy away from heavily political discussions. I do think the future for unions in the U.S. is tenuous as the labor market is flooded with folks who can be quickly trained to replace union workers in many functions and fields. The flight attendants and pilots have folded to corporate demands or lost their jobs, the teachers in some cases have experienced the same.
Plus, speaking of the UAW specifically, it would seem the worker and by extension the union has less leverage when a strike would accomplish something good for the corporation, which is already at overcapacity and just ACHING to shut down plants without having to pay the workers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the Dodge Hornet is not related to any Scion product at all. It's a DCX design and at one time there was news that Chery of China would build the stinging bee. News of which maker partnering with DCX has changed so much that it's hard to keep up with just who has been chosen to build the new design.
I came across an interesting article speculating on the origin and motivation behind the rise of the unions (especially auto unions) in the 1950s. The author is a software developer and startup founder.
In a rapidly growing market, you don't worry too much about efficiency. It's more important to grow fast. If there's some mundane problem getting in your way, and there's a simple solution that's somewhat expensive, just take it and get on with more important things. [...] Difficult though it may be to imagine now, manufacturing was a growth industry in the mid twentieth century. This was an era when small firms making everything from cars to candy were getting consolidated into a new kind of corporation with national reach and huge economies of scale. You had to grow fast or die. [...] If you looked in the head of a 1950s auto executive, the attitude must have been: sure, give 'em whatever they ask for, so long as the new model isn't delayed. [...] Circumstances being what they were, companies would have been stupid to insist on paying them so little.
If you want a less controversial example of this phenomenon, ask anyone who worked as a consultant building web sites during the Internet Bubble. In the late nineties you could get paid huge sums of money for building the most trivial things. And yet does anyone who was there have any expectation those days will ever return? I doubt it. Surely everyone realizes that was just a temporary aberration.
People who think the labor movement was the creation of heroic union organizers have a problem to explain: why are unions shrinking now? The best they can do is fall back on the default explanation of people living in fallen civilizations. Our ancestors were giants. The workers of the early twentieth century must have had a moral courage that's lacking today.
People who think the labor movement was the creation of heroic union organizers have a problem to explain: why are unions shrinking now?
That's actually quite a easy question to answer Mr. Graham.
Let's see the republican party has and for the fore see able future been owned by corporate america thus the republican party through the years passed laws to give tax breaks to corporations who off-shore their buisness or move it south of the border. This is Capitalism. Ronald Reagan, was a Capitalist also and probably did more damage to labor unions than any president before or after him. The Right-Winger's passed in a lot of red states passed "Right to Work" (for less) legistlation which squashed labor unions power to organize. That is why you have seen a further decrease in unions. The big union busting days happened on Reagans watch. They allowed corporate american to leave this country to go make another buck tariff free and exploit the third world country's who have no choice but to accept the poverty wages or starve. It's like legal slavery.
I don't know if unions will ever recover until theirs a revolt by the poor and middle class over class warfare between rich and poor. It could happen in my lifetime. Some positive signs of light have happened that now many Toyota Workers, are showing a interest in the UAW. The bottom line is "real wages" have decreased over the last 20-30 years. I know folks working in factory's now that aren't making what people made in the 80's.
The IUE-CWA, Teamster's, IBEW, MTC, etc, etc, I feel will grow again as more and more corporate greed continues with no end in sight. It's proven in history than the poor will only be abused so long and then revolt.
Now I love my pal Rocky even when some of his posts tend to alter reality to fit his premise but he's on the money on this one.
Right to work laws kill unions. It was a clear attempt (and a successful one) to keep workers from bargaining as a group. Such laws basically outlaw Union shops. You can have a Union but cannot force anyone to join them. The effect is to lower wages and limit workers rights.
This indeed started in earnest under Reagan's watch and has really not slowed.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
fezo, I would think you tend to be pretty conservative based on your posts. I don't think I'm a bleeding heart liberal. However, I look at myself as what some call a Lou Dobbs Democrat. Lou's pretty conservative in a lot of area's. I just wished he run.
As far as Reagonomic's go the man was loved by millions but man oh man the guy had a strong dislike for unions and he made them pay dearly when he had the presidency and both the house and senate in his back pocket. My grandmother who worked for the IUE, had a strong dislike for Reagan. Reagan, was a Villian in my family. His administration did destroy working class family's with labor unions (My family lost very good jobs under his watch)and he gave corporate america the power to up root and leave the U.S. and gave them a tax break as a parting gift. :confuse:
I guess I will never understand why he did this. He seemed like a nice guy. I know Jack Welch, just loved him and I guess history shows why. I often wonder if Welch and Reagan, use to talk about how they slashed thousands of union jobs over a glass of scotch.
I remember going to the auto plants and other factories threatening to close their doors with grandma as a youngster and see the anger on her face. Dad, thought he might lose his job back in the 80's at GM. He was laid off a couple times and while laid-off he had to go work in some sweat shops to make ends meet until GM, would call him back. Thankfully in the 90's the good times came and he never was laid-off again until he took some voluntary time-off (lay-off) in the early-mid 2000's all the way up till he retired. Dad, said to me it looks like 20 years later the 80's are here again with ups and downs in the auto-industry and it's time for me to get out.
Actually I'm fairly left of center. I'd bet we'd have similar voting records in the past ten years (I'm allowing for your age here - mine goes way further back...).
I think when I post I try to walk a line where I am at least trying to understand the other side.
I was just having my fun with the reality comment. I mean I think we all have our opinions and try to find things that make them correct. Funny thing - some people look at the same facts and see it differently.
Most of my comments on vehicles are theoretical in the sense that I don't expect to be buying soon and the market will be different.
I try to buy at least American content and assembly but that often ends up being a Honda. My first Ody was actually from Ontario. The current one is from Alabama. Tough to buy a union made van these days. Chrysler is the only one.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
One of my good friends and former co-worker who got another job in the plant at Pantex, was one of them that was fired. Boy, you just got to mention Reagans name and his face turns Cherry Red with rage.
He told me the whole story and boy ol' Ronald put the screws to those guys. Yes lemko, that incident gave american buisness a new found confidence. As fezo, said it hasn't slowed down since. Only 13 million of us union folks left. That's why I pray the UAW, will organize the wealthy Toyota, and Honda, plants so if something happens to the Big 3 I can at least not feel as guilty buying one of their cars. I talk junk when I get mad at the executives at GM, Ford, Chrysler, and say I'm going to buy another foreign car but that is just me blowing smoke fumes. I guarantee you I will be driving another GM, car as my next new or used one. :shades:
I think GM, is done with minivans as sales have tanked just like the midsize sport utes. So that's why GM, is going to replace both with the CUV's I guess. I guess if ya want a good van, get ya a Saturn Outlook FWD. they will carry more people than a van comfortably and get as good if not better mpg.
Not the same as a minivan. The vans just make amazing use of space. They can haul 6 of us and camping equipment. I figure someone will work out something that will hold as much.
Both GM and Ford were right to drop the vans they had. They weren't cutting it and it would be prohibitively expensive to start over.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
We've had a minivan since 1989 - I'd really miss the sliding doors I think. I suppose it's not feasible but my ideal would be a slider that starts at the driver's door and goes back to allow access to the second row too.
But we're getting a bit far afield from the topic, unless you know of a Teamster trying to invent such a thing.
If the company goes to bankruptcy court, none of those good-paying jobs will be secure for very long, and you know that. And you also know that this downsizing by the domestics was inevitable and a long time in coming. Really, it has been in the cards for 5 or 10 years, more for people really attuned to the industry. Line workers have had a goodly amount of time to prepare and make alternate plans, haven't they?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
" But then againthe people who saved thousands on Hykias can buy that much more goods and services"
And how would they do that if their job is one of the ones to go to Korea? What comes around, goes around. As far as a CEO of a company is concerned, if a job can be shipped overseas they'll try. If not, they'll try to get an immigrant to do it for minimum wage. How does that help US????!!!!
There's my problem. In both cases that's with the third seat up because if I'm taking the family on vacation that's how the vehicle will be set up.
By all means, show me I'm wrong!
A Sienna has even more cargo room than the Ody.
I'm not saying that in the future I might decide that something along the lines of an Acadia/Enclave with a cap or a pull along trailer might not work. It might well. Especially as the older ones become more independent as the oldest already is on her way.
I went back to my traditional way of buying - used but not so much. I've had the Ody three months and it's 3 years old with 25K on it. Give it maybe three years and I'll pull a similar deal.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The line workers have prepared but most people don't want to live their life in limbo off of the rumor mill. I think my mother said it best live for today as tommorow might not come. She said sure prepare for tommorow but stressing yourself out and not enjoying life because you might not have a job tommorow because nobody knows what plant might close until it's to late is no wayto live. I guess after you go through breast cancer like her you look at life differently.
I would sure like to see a breakdown on how Ford figures their labor costs. This does not look right to me.
Since 1997, Ford said its total average hourly cost-per-hour worked increased 62 percent, from $43.55 to $70.51.
Unless they are loading those figures with management and retirees benefit costs. That would not be right. The current retirees benefits should be coming out of the benefits put aside for them when they were working. Sounds like they were not honest in past dealings. When they say almost funded in reference to the retirement plan. That is something to be scared of. I was one of the watchdogs on our retirement plan in Alaska. You have to watch because Unions and Companies notoriously dip into those funds to operate the company or Union business.
The next time Democratic leaders lament the decline of American industry, please refer them to the current Congressional brawl over auto fuel-efficiency standards. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and most of their colleagues are siding with upscale environmental lobbies over American carmakers and workers. Call it their Drive-a-Toyota Act.
You would be very correct gagrice. I just don't understand it. Out oneside of Nancy's mouth she preaches jobs and pro- union words but out the other sideof her mouth she cater's to a small minority of america's populace the "tree huggers" :sick:
I would sure like to see a breakdown on how Ford figures their labor costs. This does not look right to me.
gagrice,
It's utter nonsense pal, how these people come up with these number's. The problem is GM, operated like George Dubya, and didn't pay as they go !!!!! What I mean by that is GM, didn't fully fund it's pension obligations and got behind. Well a couple ofyears ago when Dubya, told them they needed to take care of their obligations and they finally caved in and stuck billions in to the fund. Well in doing so the fund has made so much money in the stock market it will take care of most of the next generation autoworker's that will be elgible for pension.
I as I told you and every one else last week it just doesn't add up. If GM, offered a enhanced 401K with a dollar for dollar match up to 10-20% it would cost em' more money sticking money into a 401K, over 30 or 40 years per employee than it would giving them a define benefit plan in the first place. I will give GE, one thing inthe past they understood this and is why today they have around $30 billion in their pension fund thus costing them nothing for retirees. GM, back in the 30's shouldof done this exactthing and they wouldn't of been faced with this problem. As it looks though it seems they have at least band-aid the situation for the short-term.
putting out some seriously competitive cars, not just huge pick-em-up trucks and SUV's, the UAW workers would not have to be chewing their fingernails down to the bone and stressing out now.
In my own case, Boeing Aircraft in Washington state is going to beat the band right now. My Mom lives in Mukilteo and the Boeing jets fly right over her house there at Paine Field/Everett Boeing factory.
She sent me the Boeing 787 "Dreamliner" newspaper clip of the rollout for that new wonder jet from Boeing that's turning the commercial unit of Boeing around right now. She suggested to me they're hiring all-out right now.
There's no way I'm going back to those bozos. The SPEEA union is good at taking your money but powerless when the Boeing dogs decide its time to cut your throat and lay you off. I've had enough of that emotional rollercoaster and to get suckered in to going back now would be a death-knell.
You can work your fingers off to the bone for Boeing and some dork in a business suit will pick your workgroup and slice them to dog food whenever they feel like it. I have a real hard time respecting a company like that. They could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] about you. I gave and gave to that place and was crapped upon for my efforts. The facade of Boeing is the success they're having now is a dangerous power ploy for them. Watch out anyone working for them who would like to actually stay there and...I don't know...maybe retire there? They'll slit your throat so fast it'll make your head...ummm...fall off.
I am now in the medical profession, which is frought with problems, yes. But my job in this little Arizona cowtown is a good one. I have a boss who is a real person, who has feelings and a brain.
Boeing can take their "Dreamliner" and fly off to Mars with it. Take the administrative staff with you and pray you don't have respiratory problems up in space. What a farce, at Boeing it's either backstabbing fellow employee's or upper management pinheads who wouldn't know a good engineering drawing if it was rolled up and bonked over their thick head. I am so glad to be out of that hell-hole Boeing and down here in the SW desert.
Who knows, gagrice, that figure that Ford is commenting on now may be spun to cover one of their recent bonehead management decisions. I mean, if Ford fails, it's their own stupidity that will be to blame.
I don't think Cerberus is out of the car woods yet with Chrysler, either. The stress in that company would be enough to send all the workers to Prozac, including Chery of China building the new Hornet.
GM should make it with some diesel offerings and green-thinking, combined with enormous success in China and thier Daewoo-Asian opening to that region. Still a ways to go build-wise for their American vehicle offerings but I do think they're changing their course for the better. Leaking money losses will probably still haunt them for a while longer, though.
Working for GM right now would have some fun similarities to working for Boeing when things turn sour. Boeing business is cyclical and Boeing will forget you when it comes time to remember the people that helped them get through their worst times. Funny...I'm getting a hazy image of that pinhead NBA referee who feels like it's just fine to throw NBA basketball games. There's very little loyalty anywhere now from anybody, for anyone honest and smart.
It's all coming to a head and when the man upstairs puts the hammer down it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Sports and business is all screwed up right now because of people's morals. If a higher power doesn't intervene soon then even those with a head on their shoulders would be crushed in the onslaught. Not a problem, it will happen very, very soon. Justice will prevail, thankfully.
If you think Judge Judith Sheindlin provides you justice, just hang on for the big show coming up.
I am sure GM & Ford have done just as you say they have borrowed against the future.
I am not sure Dubya is as much to blame as the last Congress. They were spending like they were the other guys. The President did not stand up and veto as he should have.
I think Michigan and the auto towns are probably not in as bad of a condition as CA will be when we stop making war. With houses averaging well over half a million dollars and foreclosures outpacing sales. It ain't gonna be pretty when the hammer falls.
Comments
I also see those service jobs getting exported to India, as well. Sure unemployment is low but people are making less today in real wages than they were a decade plus ago and that includes company's cuts in benefits and the overall cost of living. Wages have not even came close to keeping up.
Rocky
In 2005 I made $105k the same house 36 years later is selling for $650k and a new PU truck for $30k. Food and gas have not hit us as bad as the big items.
To keep up with inflation I should have been making $250K plus a year.
UAW members are not over paid. Upper level managers are over paid. CEOs are way overpaid. Workers need to unite if they want to survive. Not just at Toyota, but Wally World, Kroger & Safeway. I think if you look closely the only large companies that appreciate their employees are the oil companies. They have managed to keep out most Unions by paying good wages and benefits. Microsoft is also an exception, paying higher than average to keep good employees.
We pay less, in inflation adjusted dollars, for food and clothing then we did in 1960.
Gasoline hit its peak price - adjusted for inflation - in March 1981. It may have finally bested that price since last year.
Housing is another matter entirely, but that is based on factors such as demographics, speculation by "flippers" and the self-segregation of people into certain neighborhoods, based on the quality of schools and crime rates.
For example, I recall reading that a house in the Benedict Canyon area of Beverly Hills sold for $82,000 in the mid-1960s. My parents' built their home in 1966 in central Pennsylvania, and the cost was $25,000 - or a little less than 1/3 the price of the Beverly Hills house.
Fast forward to the mid-1990s, and the Beverly Hills house sold for over $2 million. Is my parents' house worth a little less than 1/3 of that price? No way, and they don't live in a depressed area. Quite the opposite. Something more than the rate of inflation is pushing up the price of Southern California real estate, and it isn't just occurring in the posh sections of Southern California.
It is all over California. There are many cities now that have to subsidize teachers and police housing so they can afford to live where they work. Silicon Valley being the prime example.
Man $11 an hour in 1970, would make you a very well off finacially. Holy Smokes, those wages were almost un heard of back then weren't they ? It's been nice and educational listening to you old timers on past prices as my family has really never put it into perspective like you guys have taught me. If I could of go back into the past and gobbled up real estate for my family back in the 1960's I'd be rich today.
How much did a Cadillac cost in the early 70's ? I know UAW workers made good but they weren't leading the pack in wages as so many other company's made more than them. However they weren't poor either. I can only put it in perspective of my childhood as our new home in 1986' in Wayland, Mi. I thing dad paid $62,000. That same home is probably worth now $120K+. My mom in step-dad in 92 or 93 baught their home for $77K in Wyoming, Mi. Now that same home is worth between $160-$170K. :surprise: I know UAW wages or wages in general have not even came close to keep up with the cost of living. It's crazy. My father's property he baught from my grandparents on the lake in the late 90's has more than doubled. It's like worth 2 1/2 times what he paid for it. :surprise: However my dad and step-dad almost have it paid for from what I understand.
Rocky
An interesting turn of events was the Company that hired me and brought me to Alaska, RCA Global Communications wanted us to go Teamsters, which we did. They found it easier to deal with one wage scale in each classification.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
The AVEO, can blow up for all I care. That goes for all the other cracker box, sardine cans, from South Korea. The Hyundai/Kia workers are unionized but the country has a poor human rights record. The average guy/gal works more hours and longer weeks than any other country in the world. I believe the average person works 60 something hours a week and 72 hour work weeks aren't on common. It's basically work that long or be fired. Well enough about South Korea, before I get side tracked.
Where is your evidence that Chrysler, is going to import Chinese, automobiles ???? The last I new Kerkorkian and the UAW were going to team up and buy Chrysler from Diamler Benz. Do you really think the UAW, is going to allow a company they partially own to sell non-union Chinese, made automobiles. I think not !!!
Rocky
First of all, the UAW doesn't own any part of anything at Chrysler yet, there is speculation and that's all. And Kerkorian won't be any more successful at buying Chrysler than he was at taking over GM last year.
Secondly, Chrysler has already released news to the press that it intends to join into a deal with SAIC in China to produce "a small car for U.S. sale". Everyone figures it has to be the new Hornet that made such a splash as a concept, but that is not set in stone. I just used the name as shorthand. It could be something else, but Chrysler has said it will be a small car, for U.S. sale. Now, if some capital group like Magna or Cerberus buys Chrysler, everything in the works could be put on hold, of course.
I will add that having read through the posts here, I am convinced that the UAW will not successfully unionize the Kentucky plant or any of Toyota's other plants either. But this is a personal conviction which I will not attempt to support by jumping into the heavy politics being discussed in this thread. I shy away from heavily political discussions. I do think the future for unions in the U.S. is tenuous as the labor market is flooded with folks who can be quickly trained to replace union workers in many functions and fields. The flight attendants and pilots have folded to corporate demands or lost their jobs, the teachers in some cases have experienced the same.
Plus, speaking of the UAW specifically, it would seem the worker and by extension the union has less leverage when a strike would accomplish something good for the corporation, which is already at overcapacity and just ACHING to shut down plants without having to pay the workers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
P.S. I respect your $0.02 and I'm sorry if I came across emotional but really I am a pretty laid back guy. Well not all the time but.....
http://info.detnews.com/poll/result.cfm?topic=gm_toyota_0425&end
-Rocky
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/geneva_2006/0603_dodge_hornet/#Scene_2
I hope they build it! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-Rocky
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Rocky
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
An Alternative Theory of Unions
Some quotes:
In a rapidly growing market, you don't worry too much about efficiency. It's more important to grow fast. If there's some mundane problem getting in your way, and there's a simple solution that's somewhat expensive, just take it and get on with more important things. [...] Difficult though it may be to imagine now, manufacturing was a growth industry in the mid twentieth century. This was an era when small firms making everything from cars to candy were getting consolidated into a new kind of corporation with national reach and huge economies of scale. You had to grow fast or die. [...] If you looked in the head of a 1950s auto executive, the attitude must have been: sure, give 'em whatever they ask for, so long as the new model isn't delayed. [...] Circumstances being what they were, companies would have been stupid to insist on paying them so little.
If you want a less controversial example of this phenomenon, ask anyone who worked as a consultant building web sites during the Internet Bubble. In the late nineties you could get paid huge sums of money for building the most trivial things. And yet does anyone who was there have any expectation those days will ever return? I doubt it. Surely everyone realizes that was just a temporary aberration.
People who think the labor movement was the creation of heroic union organizers have a problem to explain: why are unions shrinking now? The best they can do is fall back on the default explanation of people living in fallen civilizations. Our ancestors were giants. The workers of the early twentieth century must have had a moral courage that's lacking today.
That's actually quite a easy question to answer Mr. Graham.
Let's see the republican party has and for the fore see able future been owned by corporate america thus the republican party through the years passed laws to give tax breaks to corporations who off-shore their buisness or move it south of the border. This is Capitalism. Ronald Reagan, was a Capitalist also and probably did more damage to labor unions than any president before or after him. The Right-Winger's passed in a lot of red states passed "Right to Work" (for less) legistlation which squashed labor unions power to organize. That is why you have seen a further decrease in unions. The big union busting days happened on Reagans watch. They allowed corporate american to leave this country to go make another buck tariff free and exploit the third world country's who have no choice but to accept the poverty wages or starve. It's like legal slavery.
I don't know if unions will ever recover until theirs a revolt by the poor and middle class over class warfare between rich and poor. It could happen in my lifetime. Some positive signs of light have happened that now many Toyota Workers, are showing a interest in the UAW. The bottom line is "real wages" have decreased over the last 20-30 years. I know folks working in factory's now that aren't making what people made in the 80's.
The IUE-CWA, Teamster's, IBEW, MTC, etc, etc, I feel will grow again as more and more corporate greed continues with no end in sight. It's proven in history than the poor will only be abused so long and then revolt.
Just my $0.02 response and opinion.
-Rocky
Right to work laws kill unions. It was a clear attempt (and a successful one) to keep workers from bargaining as a group. Such laws basically outlaw Union shops. You can have a Union but cannot force anyone to join them. The effect is to lower wages and limit workers rights.
This indeed started in earnest under Reagan's watch and has really not slowed.
As far as Reagonomic's go the man was loved by millions but man oh man the guy had a strong dislike for unions and he made them pay dearly when he had the presidency and both the house and senate in his back pocket. My grandmother who worked for the IUE, had a strong dislike for Reagan.
Reagan, was a Villian in my family. His administration did destroy working class family's with labor unions
(My family lost very good jobs under his watch)and he gave corporate america the power to up root and leave the U.S. and gave them a tax break as a parting gift. :confuse:
I guess I will never understand why he did this. He seemed like a nice guy. I know Jack Welch, just loved him and I guess history shows why. I often wonder if Welch and Reagan, use to talk about how they slashed thousands of union jobs over a glass of scotch.
I remember going to the auto plants and other factories threatening to close their doors with grandma as a youngster and see the anger on her face. Dad, thought he might lose his job back in the 80's at GM. He was laid off a couple times and while laid-off he had to go work in some sweat shops to make ends meet until GM, would call him back. Thankfully in the 90's the good times came and he never was laid-off again until he took some voluntary time-off (lay-off) in the early-mid 2000's all the way up till he retired. Dad, said to me it looks like 20 years later the 80's are here again with ups and downs in the auto-industry and it's time for me to get out.
-Rocky
I think when I post I try to walk a line where I am at least trying to understand the other side.
I was just having my fun with the reality comment. I mean I think we all have our opinions and try to find things that make them correct. Funny thing - some people look at the same facts and see it differently.
Most of my comments on vehicles are theoretical in the sense that I don't expect to be buying soon and the market will be different.
I try to buy at least American content and assembly but that often ends up being a Honda. My first Ody was actually from Ontario. The current one is from Alabama. Tough to buy a union made van these days. Chrysler is the only one.
He told me the whole story and boy ol' Ronald put the screws to those guys. Yes lemko, that incident gave american buisness a new found confidence. As fezo, said it hasn't slowed down since. Only 13 million of us union folks left. That's why I pray the UAW, will organize the wealthy Toyota, and Honda, plants so if something happens to the Big 3 I can at least not feel as guilty buying one of their cars. I talk junk when I get mad at the executives at GM, Ford, Chrysler, and say I'm going to buy another foreign car but that is just me blowing smoke fumes.
-Rocky
Was it union made ? :surprise: Ya know by CAW workers ?
-Rocky
Come on - let's see a good us minivan!
-Rocky
Both GM and Ford were right to drop the vans they had. They weren't cutting it and it would be prohibitively expensive to start over.
-Rocky
But we're getting a bit far afield from the topic, unless you know of a Teamster trying to invent such a thing.
Buh bye some more good paying jobs.
-Rocky
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm
-Rocky
If the company goes to bankruptcy court, none of those good-paying jobs will be secure for very long, and you know that. And you also know that this downsizing by the domestics was inevitable and a long time in coming. Really, it has been in the cards for 5 or 10 years, more for people really attuned to the industry. Line workers have had a goodly amount of time to prepare and make alternate plans, haven't they?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And how would they do that if their job is one of the ones to go to Korea? What comes around, goes around. As far as a CEO of a company is concerned, if a job can be shipped overseas they'll try. If not, they'll try to get an immigrant to do it for minimum wage. How does that help US????!!!!
Acadia - 19 cu ft
There's my problem. In both cases that's with the third seat up because if I'm taking the family on vacation that's how the vehicle will be set up.
By all means, show me I'm wrong!
A Sienna has even more cargo room than the Ody.
I'm not saying that in the future I might decide that something along the lines of an Acadia/Enclave with a cap or a pull along trailer might not work. It might well. Especially as the older ones become more independent as the oldest already is on her way.
I went back to my traditional way of buying - used but not so much. I've had the Ody three months and it's 3 years old with 25K on it. Give it maybe three years and I'll pull a similar deal.
-Rocky
This will be an interesting next few months !!!!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Since 1997, Ford said its total average hourly cost-per-hour worked increased 62 percent, from $43.55 to $70.51.
Unless they are loading those figures with management and retirees benefit costs. That would not be right. The current retirees benefits should be coming out of the benefits put aside for them when they were working. Sounds like they were not honest in past dealings. When they say almost funded in reference to the retirement plan. That is something to be scared of. I was one of the watchdogs on our retirement plan in Alaska. You have to watch because Unions and Companies notoriously dip into those funds to operate the company or Union business.
I do not think they are the friends of the UAW.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118333897536154838.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
You would be very correct gagrice. I just don't understand it. Out oneside of Nancy's mouth she preaches jobs and pro- union words but out the other sideof her mouth she cater's to a small minority of america's populace the "tree huggers" :sick:
-Rocky
gagrice,
It's utter nonsense pal, how these people come up with these number's. The problem is GM, operated like George Dubya, and didn't pay as they go !!!!! What I mean by that is GM, didn't fully fund it's pension obligations and got behind. Well a couple ofyears ago when Dubya, told them they needed to take care of their obligations and they finally caved in and stuck billions in to the fund. Well in doing so the fund has made so much money in the stock market it will take care of most of the next generation autoworker's that will be elgible for pension.
I as I told you and every one else last week it just doesn't add up. If GM, offered a enhanced 401K with a dollar for dollar match up to 10-20% it would cost em' more money sticking money into a 401K, over 30 or 40 years per employee than it would giving them a define benefit plan in the first place. I will give GE, one thing inthe past they understood this and is why today they have around $30 billion in their pension fund thus costing them nothing for retirees. GM, back in the 30's shouldof done this exactthing and they wouldn't of been faced with this problem. As it looks though it seems they have at least band-aid the situation for the short-term.
-Rocky
In my own case, Boeing Aircraft in Washington state is going to beat the band right now. My Mom lives in Mukilteo and the Boeing jets fly right over her house there at Paine Field/Everett Boeing factory.
She sent me the Boeing 787 "Dreamliner" newspaper clip of the rollout for that new wonder jet from Boeing that's turning the commercial unit of Boeing around right now. She suggested to me they're hiring all-out right now.
There's no way I'm going back to those bozos. The SPEEA union is good at taking your money but powerless when the Boeing dogs decide its time to cut your throat and lay you off. I've had enough of that emotional rollercoaster and to get suckered in to going back now would be a death-knell.
You can work your fingers off to the bone for Boeing and some dork in a business suit will pick your workgroup and slice them to dog food whenever they feel like it. I have a real hard time respecting a company like that. They could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] about you. I gave and gave to that place and was crapped upon for my efforts. The facade of Boeing is the success they're having now is a dangerous power ploy for them. Watch out anyone working for them who would like to actually stay there and...I don't know...maybe retire there? They'll slit your throat so fast it'll make your head...ummm...fall off.
I am now in the medical profession, which is frought with problems, yes. But my job in this little Arizona cowtown is a good one. I have a boss who is a real person, who has feelings and a brain.
Boeing can take their "Dreamliner" and fly off to Mars with it. Take the administrative staff with you and pray you don't have respiratory problems up in space. What a farce, at Boeing it's either backstabbing fellow employee's or upper management pinheads who wouldn't know a good engineering drawing if it was rolled up and bonked over their thick head. I am so glad to be out of that hell-hole Boeing and down here in the SW desert.
Who knows, gagrice, that figure that Ford is commenting on now may be spun to cover one of their recent bonehead management decisions. I mean, if Ford fails, it's their own stupidity that will be to blame.
I don't think Cerberus is out of the car woods yet with Chrysler, either. The stress in that company would be enough to send all the workers to Prozac, including Chery of China building the new Hornet.
GM should make it with some diesel offerings and green-thinking, combined with enormous success in China and thier Daewoo-Asian opening to that region. Still a ways to go build-wise for their American vehicle offerings but I do think they're changing their course for the better. Leaking money losses will probably still haunt them for a while longer, though.
Working for GM right now would have some fun similarities to working for Boeing when things turn sour. Boeing business is cyclical and Boeing will forget you when it comes time to remember the people that helped them get through their worst times. Funny...I'm getting a hazy image of that pinhead NBA referee who feels like it's just fine to throw NBA basketball games. There's very little loyalty anywhere now from anybody, for anyone honest and smart.
It's all coming to a head and when the man upstairs puts the hammer down it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Sports and business is all screwed up right now because of people's morals. If a higher power doesn't intervene soon then even those with a head on their shoulders would be crushed in the onslaught. Not a problem, it will happen very, very soon. Justice will prevail, thankfully.
If you think Judge Judith Sheindlin provides you justice, just hang on for the big show coming up.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I am not sure Dubya is as much to blame as the last Congress. They were spending like they were the other guys. The President did not stand up and veto as he should have.
I think Michigan and the auto towns are probably not in as bad of a condition as CA will be when we stop making war. With houses averaging well over half a million dollars and foreclosures outpacing sales. It ain't gonna be pretty when the hammer falls.