I think Rocky moved from Texas the land of opportunity back to Michigan. One of the few states not doing great. Though my friends moved to Detroit from San Diego and are happy as clams. If you are in a town that was all one company and they pulled the plug. You are not going to be too pleased with the economy.
"Strikes at Hyundai are common. Workers already have walked off the job twice this year. The union has gone on strike every year but one since it was founded in 1987."
off the job just as easy. Spose I could click on the link and find out. That's a lot of lost revenue for Hyundai there. Some have to wait for the model they want just a little longer than usual...this is normal for Hyundai ever since I started studying them and Kia closer than ever in the fall of 1998. Fierce loyalty to their unions.
It's true that both manufacturers have improved quality throughout strikes of late.
The union haters will probably be gleeful as states' GDP decreases as more production is ceased in those states where union jobs were making things until now. E.g., Delphi plants in W. Ohio are closing. Ohio and Michigan will end up as Jamaica in GDP.
Gagrice, your response is in your carspace friends request pal. I didn't realize you weren't my pal yet ? :surprise: OMG !!! It was to long and to far off-topic to explain my situation.......
Nonsense. The UAW has played dirty tricks for years and Detroit has capitulated. When times got tough and Detroit had to react the UAW's reaction has generally been "tough". When the Japanese manufacturers have a $2,500 PER CAR advantage over Detroit in retiree benefits alone, and when GM is the biggest health care provider in the country, there's a huge problem. Do UAW members like thier benefits? Of course they do, they are outstanding but they come at a price.. There's a reason people buy imports.. for a long time they were better cars than the domestics. Wanna know a secret? There's more component cost in building a Camry than in building a Taurus, about $1,500 worth... Toyota's workers make sacrifices when needed... and now GM is dangerously close to not being #1 anymore and it sucks.
GM's market share has been cut by more than HALF!
Oh, wait, what's Detroit's dollar disadvantage to Toyota/Honda/Nissan/etc again?
Ron Gettlefinger's only real job lately seems to be sword-waving, had he gotten what he wanted from Delphi they would have gone out of business.
The UAW still doesn't get that killing to golden goose will starve their members... they can either adapt or more jobs will go overseas.
All the UAW has done is made it so Foreign competitors can build factories in MY country and beat our own businesses on their home turf.
You're not going to get any sympathy from me for the UAW, they dug their own bed, they can lie in it no matter how bad it stinks.
imidazol97: The union haters will probably be gleeful as states' GDP decreases as more production is ceased in those states where union jobs were making things until now. E.g., Delphi plants in W. Ohio are closing. Ohio and Michigan will end up as Jamaica in GDP.
Except that this map doesn't quite make the point that you apparently want to make.
Texas, which is hardly union-friendly, is growing and has a higher GDP than Michigan, which is about as union-friendly as any state in the union (except, possibly for New York). Just got back from Texas, and there sure wasn't much gloom-and-doom in Dallas, San Antonio and Austin...
You'd be very surprised just how many union shops their really is in Texas. Where I use to live their were several union jobs. austin, has a lot of union jobs as well. Of course they are more of a liberal city. Dallas & Houston, has it's fair share as well. The bottom line is sure their isn't unions in rural places (Most of Texas) but many of those same places are filled with fallen down schools, gang and major drug problems, and housing that would look like a eyesore in Mexico. Most Texans are actually considered poor and just because they prop up a Toyota plant in San Antonio, working illegal aliens doesn't mean the whole state is doing well. Texas, is bleeding hundreds of millions in red ink in it's budget. :surprise:
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because your mind is made up already. Billions of dollars annually in extra profit in the Japanese automobile manufactors portfolio can be attributed to the Currency Manipulation advantage they have on us. You can only point the blame at Dubya and congress that are allowing this to continue. Toyota, pays it's workers a lot more in wages and benefits than the UAW in Japan and they still export 51% oftheircars into this country. That should tell you something or then again maybe not ? :confuse:
There are an awful lot more to employee costs than their direct wages.
Like enormous pensions. Like healthcare for life, and extremely expensive healthcare at that. Hardly any company pays for the health insurance for their retirees, but GM sure does.
As I said, it's not the hourly wage that's the issue. It's that the big 3 have, on average, a $2,500 per car disadvantage in retiree benefits alone.
And then there were the days when the UAW dictated how many people you had to have on the assembly line for a certain job regardless of advantages in manufacturing technology.
Toyota, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Nissan, etc don't have those expenses, hence they have an unfair advantage.
I don't know where you get that from, the economy is doing great. I'm making more and more every year. The only place thats doing bad is the poor old union dominated rust belt. But that a very good example of how the union is killing the golden goose. Take detroit. some of the lowest cost of living in the country, led by the incredibly cheap housing. you could very comfortable live off 40k a year. But what does the UAW do? their 80-100k a year employees will threaten to strike if they don't get even more. Gee, wonder why that part of the country is falling apart, people are leaving in droves, and the entire manufacturing base is either moving south or out of the country.
> Take detroit. some of the lowest cost of living in the country, led by the incredibly cheap housing. you could very comfortable live off 40k a year. But what does the UAW do? their 80-100k a year employees will threaten to strike if they don't get even more.
Your economics don't match reality. Unions have taken wage decreases over the last years. Delphi has taken a vaste decrease and a decrease in numbers of jobs just to retain those they still have.
The new GM Trucks and SUV's 2007+ are as solid as your Sequoia ever dreamed of. :confuse: I have been in both gagrice, and I'm not sure what you are talking about pal. :confuse:
As far as the Astra, I believe it's going to be built in Mexico, last I heard. I was just referring to a earlier post that said GM, can't engineer good small cars. The Astra, appears to be one even though like the Fusion, it is unfortunately made in Mexico. (last I heard)
rockylee: The bottom line is sure their isn't unions in rural places (Most of Texas) but many of those same places are filled with fallen down schools, gang and major drug problems, and housing that would look like a eyesore in Mexico.
Gangs, drugs and substandard housing? Sounds like Detroit, Los Angeles, Cleveland, etc. Not rural Texas.
rockylee: Most Texans are actually considered poor and just because they prop up a Toyota plant in San Antonio, working illegal aliens doesn't mean the whole state is doing well. Texas, is bleeding hundreds of millions in red ink in it's budget.
Most Texans are NOT considered poor, and the Toyota plant is not employing illegal aliens.
imidazol97: Your economics don't match reality. Unions have taken wage decreases over the last years. Delphi has taken a vaste decrease and a decrease in numbers of jobs just to retain those they still have.
No, ONE branch of TWO unions working at ONE particular company took a pay cut - i.e., the workers at Delphi, which are represented by the UAW and the IBEW.
GM and Ford workers have not taken a wage cut - if I recall correctly, a scheduled wage INCREASE was instead diverted to help pay for health care costs. But that is not the same thing as a wage cut.
And note that the UAW would not agree to similar provisions for Chrysler, because it was still part of Daimler at the time, which was profitable.
Don't be too sure. It happened to the largest corporation in the World, WalMart. Illegals get SS and ID cards that are difficult to deny employment with. There are many companies that have checked out these SS numbers with the Feds and they come back legit. So they could very well be hiring illegals. Remember Bank of America is giving them Credit Cards.
Oh, and they can vote in CA, because it is against state law to make them show proof of citizenship here.
gagrice: Illegals get SS and ID cards that are difficult to deny employment with. There are many companies that have checked out these SS numbers with the Feds and they come back legit. So they could very well be hiring illegals.
If that is the case, the companies are not knowingly hiring illegal aliens. The problem is with the federal system that checks these numbers. The companies - including Toyota - are not responsible for the design and daily operation of this system.
I agree. It makes it difficult with the laws that are in place to verify who is and who is not a legal resident. You hire a person to do your lawn and he has what looks like a legal green card or SS card. What is the homeowner or business man supposed to do? I think Congress knows just how screwed up our system is. That is why the gridlock in doing anything.
It would not surprise me to find that there are members in the UAW that are not legal residents. Having just gone through the retirement process, it is the only time in my 45 years of employment that I was required to show a certified birth certificate proving where I was born. In 45 years of working I was a member of 3 different unions. None ever asked for proof of citizenship. Only a drivers license and a SS number...
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, unions in Japan, does dictate how many you have to have on assembly line. They have "nap" time at work. There militant union makes the UAW, look like [non-permissible content removed] cats and is one reason why they started to come here and exploit our..... Well I won't say what I really mean !!!!!
BMW, Mercedes, Audi, worker's work a 35 hour work week, get a month's worth of paid vacation when the day they start, get a company paid breakfast, get beer at lunch. They also aren't required to work weekends or holidays and can't be forced to work over time last time I knew. You continue to amaze me with your "facts" :confuse:
I also as well wouldn't be a bit surprised if their were illegal alien UAW members. A lawsuit was filed by the union for the union members working for Swift, during the raid last year against the ICE last year made the news papers.
I don't agree with it but the union feels obligated to protect it's membership.
What this means to you: If you want to buy american, made by union members and with a large % of domestic content here's a large list to choose from !!!!
Top-quality products available from nine different manufacturers
The UAW announced today that a list of 2008 union-made cars, trucks, pickups, vans, CUVs and SUVs is now available on the UAW Web site at 2008 Union-Built Car and Truck Guide (810 KB).
“Getting to know more about the great selection of union-made vehicles in the marketplace is a great way to observe Labor Day,” said UAW President Gettelfinger. “Union members in the United States and Canada make a wide variety of top-quality vehicles in every category and in every price range.”
Vehicles from nine different manufacturers are produced in union-represented auto assembly plants in the United States and Canada, according to the list distributed today by the UAW. Union-made products are available in every price range and in every product category, including hybrids, clean diesels and energy-saving flex-fuel vehicles.
UAW-made vehicles, said Gettelfinger, have recently won top-quality rankings from J.D. Power and Associates and the University of Michigan Consumer Satisfaction Survey.
In addition, the most recent Harbour Report, a closely watched study of auto plant efficiency, showed that when union plants are compared with nonunion facilities that build the same type of vehicle, union plants are more productive in 12 out of 13 cases.
“Members of our union are totally dedicated to safety, quality and productivity, and their hard work is paying off,” said Gettelfinger.
The 2008 union-made vehicle guide includes vehicles assembled in the United States and Canada by members of the UAW, the CAW and the IUE-CWA. Union-made vehicles include various Chrysler, Ford, General Motors models, as well as specific models of Isuzu, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Saab, Suzuki and Toyota vehicles.
The complete list is available at 2008 Union-Built Car and Truck Guide.
They don't get the extraordinary benefits that UAW workers get, and you can be certain that when push comes to shove, they don't try and kick the company out of business.
Much of the work week and vacation "benefits" are related to EU laws, not the efforts of the Unions.
American auto workers are still, by far, the most highly compensated mass-production auto workers on the planet.
Yes, let's bring up the wonders of British Unions... Derek Robinson aka "Red Robbo" anyone? He took on BL.. and ended up costing tens of thousands of British workers their jobs. Well done indeed. Maybe the people at the UAW ought to take a gander at what happened when you finally kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
British Leyland was never a goose that laid golden eggs. It was more an ugly duck that laid lead eggs. I think B-L would've collapsed with or without the union's help.
In order to counter the unstable situation on the French labor market at the end of the nineties, the French government decreed a 35 hour work week in January of 2000. Working hours agreed through collective bargaining with the trade unions seldom vary from the requirements of French law. However, in practice there are numerous exceptions to these agreements, permitting a higher number of weekly working hours.
Huh? When this was floated in the UK the Unions flipped. I was watching it on the news at the time... the general consensus was the employers would expect the same productivity with a 12% decrease in compensation.
I was focusing on the sentence that said "French industrial law has been greatly influenced by the French trade unions."
The 35 hour work week didn't work out like the Socialists expected. Thanks for causing me a long diversion reading about living and working in France btw. :P (yet another fun link)
the difference in japan is everybody belongs to the union. There's no non union competition over there. and by the way, their auto industry (in japan) has been in decline for about 15 years now, with no improvement in sight, and their economy is still strugling. Another great example of what a union can do for you.
The only reason why their economy is in decline like ours is because it's impossible with or without a union to compete with some one living in either a grass hut on a rice field eating snakes or some body living 5+ in a dinky apartment making $0.42 per/hr. We and Japan, seem to be headed that direction. :sick:
If we're smart, we're NOT headed in that direction, far from it.
There's a whole host of things hurting this country, but a big part of it is realizing that we need to do what's required to be competitive. The problem that I have with the UAW is that they don't seem to realize that they are going to need to adapt... it's not 1955 anymore.
50+ years ago the only foreign cars that were sold here didn'[t have domestic competitors. There was no American Jaguar XK120 competitor in 1949 and no American Rolls-Royce, no American MG, no American Beetle.
The extreme vast majority bought cars made right here. Now things are different, and America is now part of a much wider global economy. We can either adapt or die. Pick one. But the UAW pulling the same old song and dance they did 20..30..40..50..60 years ago just isnt going to cut it today. What if GM's only option is to move all production to Mexico? Don't laugh too hard, it's been considered.. mainly by Chrysler.
We don't need 42c/hr employees but most of the current UAW contracts are untenable in the long term. Foreign competition isn't what's going to bring this country down, failure to realize that the fat times we had in the past are over and are not coming back will.
Our economy isn't in decline. the growth has slowed a bit, but the feds have been trying to slow it down for three years now. Where have you been the last five years?
Comments
You make a valid point. The UAW has done a good job of making that happen.. along with tort lawyers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I wonder when it was made though because the GDP of developing countries can swing wildly from year to year.
Hyundai Motor, Union to Keep Talking (AP)
"Last year was Hyundai's worst ever in terms of labor unrest.
A total of four walkouts cost the automaker 118,293 vehicles in lost production worth $1.75 billion, according to company figures."
Doesn't seem to have hurt their JD Power rankings.
It's true that both manufacturers have improved quality throughout strikes of late.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
This is the text associated:
Text says 2007 IIRC.
The union haters will probably be gleeful as states' GDP decreases as more production is ceased in those states where union jobs were making things until now. E.g., Delphi plants in W. Ohio are closing. Ohio and Michigan will end up as Jamaica in GDP.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Nah, that would be the Pseudo-Capitalist right wing that have no loyalty to their nation. The only thing american they care about is the dollar. :mad:
-Rocky
GM's market share has been cut by more than HALF!
Oh, wait, what's Detroit's dollar disadvantage to Toyota/Honda/Nissan/etc again?
Ron Gettlefinger's only real job lately seems to be sword-waving, had he gotten what he wanted from Delphi they would have gone out of business.
The UAW still doesn't get that killing to golden goose will starve their members... they can either adapt or more jobs will go overseas.
All the UAW has done is made it so Foreign competitors can build factories in MY country and beat our own businesses on their home turf.
You're not going to get any sympathy from me for the UAW, they dug their own bed, they can lie in it no matter how bad it stinks.
Except that this map doesn't quite make the point that you apparently want to make.
Texas, which is hardly union-friendly, is growing and has a higher GDP than Michigan, which is about as union-friendly as any state in the union (except, possibly for New York). Just got back from Texas, and there sure wasn't much gloom-and-doom in Dallas, San Antonio and Austin...
-Rocky
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because your mind is made up already. Billions of dollars annually in extra profit in the Japanese automobile manufactors portfolio can be attributed to the Currency Manipulation advantage they have on us. You can only point the blame at Dubya and congress that are allowing this to continue. Toyota, pays it's workers a lot more in wages and benefits than the UAW in Japan and they still export 51% oftheircars into this country. That should tell you something or then again maybe not ? :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Like enormous pensions. Like healthcare for life, and extremely expensive healthcare at that. Hardly any company pays for the health insurance for their retirees, but GM sure does.
As I said, it's not the hourly wage that's the issue. It's that the big 3 have, on average, a $2,500 per car disadvantage in retiree benefits alone.
And then there were the days when the UAW dictated how many people you had to have on the assembly line for a certain job regardless of advantages in manufacturing technology.
Toyota, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Nissan, etc don't have those expenses, hence they have an unfair advantage.
Your economics don't match reality. Unions have taken wage decreases over the last years. Delphi has taken a vaste decrease and a decrease in numbers of jobs just to retain those they still have.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As far as the Astra, I believe it's going to be built in Mexico, last I heard. I was just referring to a earlier post that said GM, can't engineer good small cars. The Astra, appears to be one even though like the
Fusion, it is unfortunately made in Mexico. (last I heard)
-Rocky
Gangs, drugs and substandard housing? Sounds like Detroit, Los Angeles, Cleveland, etc. Not rural Texas.
rockylee: Most Texans are actually considered poor and just because they prop up a Toyota plant in San Antonio, working illegal aliens doesn't mean the whole state is doing well. Texas, is bleeding hundreds of millions in red ink in it's budget.
Most Texans are NOT considered poor, and the Toyota plant is not employing illegal aliens.
No, ONE branch of TWO unions working at ONE particular company took a pay cut - i.e., the workers at Delphi, which are represented by the UAW and the IBEW.
GM and Ford workers have not taken a wage cut - if I recall correctly, a scheduled wage INCREASE was instead diverted to help pay for health care costs. But that is not the same thing as a wage cut.
And note that the UAW would not agree to similar provisions for Chrysler, because it was still part of Daimler at the time, which was profitable.
The average wage in the Dallas metropolitan area is $19 per hour ($38,000 per year).
The average house costs $160,000.
We'll be happy to compare our numbers with ANY other state, including Michigan, New York or even Kalifornia.
500,000 people moved to Texas last year from those and other states. They must know something, eh?
Oh,
and they can vote in CA, because it is against state law to make them show proof of citizenship here.
If that is the case, the companies are not knowingly hiring illegal aliens. The problem is with the federal system that checks these numbers. The companies - including Toyota - are not responsible for the design and daily operation of this system.
It would not surprise me to find that there are members in the UAW that are not legal residents. Having just gone through the retirement process, it is the only time in my 45 years of employment that I was required to show a certified birth certificate proving where I was born. In 45 years of working I was a member of 3 different unions. None ever asked for proof of citizenship. Only a drivers license and a SS number...
BMW, Mercedes, Audi, worker's work a 35 hour work week, get a month's worth of paid vacation when the day they start, get a company paid breakfast, get beer at lunch. They also aren't required to work weekends or holidays and can't be forced to work over time last time I knew. You continue to amaze me with your "facts" :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
I think you meant the IUE-CWA ? :confuse:
-Rocky
I don't agree with it but the union feels obligated to protect it's membership.
-Rocky
What this means to you: If you want to buy american, made by union members and with a large % of domestic content here's a large list to choose from !!!!
-Rocky
Union-made vehicle list available for Labor Day
Top-quality products available from nine different manufacturers
The UAW announced today that a list of 2008 union-made cars, trucks, pickups, vans, CUVs and SUVs is now available on the UAW Web site at 2008 Union-Built Car and Truck Guide (810 KB).
“Getting to know more about the great selection of union-made vehicles in the marketplace is a great way to observe Labor Day,” said UAW President Gettelfinger. “Union members in the United States and Canada make a wide variety of top-quality vehicles in every category and in every price range.”
Vehicles from nine different manufacturers are produced in union-represented auto assembly plants in the United States and Canada, according to the list distributed today by the UAW. Union-made products are available in every price range and in every product category, including hybrids, clean diesels and energy-saving flex-fuel vehicles.
UAW-made vehicles, said Gettelfinger, have recently won top-quality rankings from J.D. Power and Associates and the University of Michigan Consumer Satisfaction Survey.
In addition, the most recent Harbour Report, a closely watched study of auto plant efficiency, showed that when union plants are compared with nonunion facilities that build the same type of vehicle, union plants are more productive in 12 out of 13 cases.
“Members of our union are totally dedicated to safety, quality and productivity, and their hard work is paying off,” said Gettelfinger.
The 2008 union-made vehicle guide includes vehicles assembled in the United States and Canada by members of the UAW, the CAW and the IUE-CWA. Union-made vehicles include various Chrysler, Ford, General Motors models, as well as specific models of Isuzu, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Saab, Suzuki and Toyota vehicles.
The complete list is available at 2008 Union-Built Car and Truck Guide.
http://www.uaw.org/news/newsarticle.cfm?ArtId=491
-Rocky
Not every category. The last UAW-built subcompact was the Toyota Corolla. :surprise:
They don't get the extraordinary benefits that UAW workers get, and you can be certain that when push comes to shove, they don't try and kick the company out of business.
Much of the work week and vacation "benefits" are related to EU laws, not the efforts of the Unions.
American auto workers are still, by far, the most highly compensated mass-production auto workers on the planet.
Yes, let's bring up the wonders of British Unions... Derek Robinson aka "Red Robbo" anyone? He took on BL.. and ended up costing tens of thousands of British workers their jobs. Well done indeed. Maybe the people at the UAW ought to take a gander at what happened when you finally kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
Clarkcon's Car Years "Who killed the British Car Industry?"
That is part 1 and you can find parts 2 and 3 linked from that page.
I think much of that is due to the efforts of the unions getting those laws passed. link
Huh? When this was floated in the UK the Unions flipped. I was watching it on the news at the time... the general consensus was the employers would expect the same productivity with a 12% decrease in compensation.
The 35 hour work week didn't work out like the Socialists expected. Thanks for causing me a long diversion reading about living and working in France btw. :P (yet another fun link)
What they said about working on Sundays was a hoot too.. "Why not just pay the worker more?"
It had me laughing out loud!
-Rocky
There's a whole host of things hurting this country, but a big part of it is realizing that we need to do what's required to be competitive. The problem that I have with the UAW is that they don't seem to realize that they are going to need to adapt... it's not 1955 anymore.
50+ years ago the only foreign cars that were sold here didn'[t have domestic competitors. There was no American Jaguar XK120 competitor in 1949 and no American Rolls-Royce, no American MG, no American Beetle.
The extreme vast majority bought cars made right here. Now things are different, and America is now part of a much wider global economy. We can either adapt or die. Pick one. But the UAW pulling the same old song and dance they did 20..30..40..50..60 years ago just isnt going to cut it today. What if GM's only option is to move all production to Mexico? Don't laugh too hard, it's been considered.. mainly by Chrysler.
We don't need 42c/hr employees but most of the current UAW contracts are untenable in the long term. Foreign competition isn't what's going to bring this country down, failure to realize that the fat times we had in the past are over and are not coming back will.