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That reminds me - the Canadian auto workers split off from the UAW twenty years ago. Anyone familiar with how they are managing with the auto industry?
to tell you the truth, it already has. only about 10% of the workforce is unionized now, and most of that is government and education. As I said, the UAW is just a throwback to a bygone era, an era marked by some of the worst economic conditions ever seen. Stagflation, the misery index, double digit inflation and interest rates (theoreticly impossible, don't know how carter pulled that off) and double digit unemployment. the more unions that dissappeared the better the economy got. any institution that artifically inflates wages and holds down productivity will do no good for the economy.
I find your observation absolutely hilarious when host STEVE, gave several links telling quite the opposite story. Are you sure you live in the same country as me ???? :confuse:
-Rocky
"Are you sure you live in the same country as I" (do)
I don't know ? The country some have describe sounds nothing like the country where I live ? :confuse:
-Rocky
Absolutely!!! Amazing how the double standard allows companies to spend BILLIONS of dollars on lobbyists to to convince (read: PAY OFF) federal, state, and local govenments to give them subsidies and tax breaks and make laws that benefit them, yet if a UNION tries to do this, or threatens w/ a strike, we're seen as evil, anti American, anti Capitalist (how standing up for yourself to get the best deal is anti capitalist is BEYOND me???)and troublemakers.
When the suits say"No fair" and pick up their toys and go to China and leave us w/o a job, they say "Go to school and train yourself like we did". No mention that this training and re-training costs MONEY that we no longer have cause we're OUT OF A JOB, but that's OK, just borrow the money (let's not mention that they have investments in the credit card comapnies that charge usurious rates that they lobbied to allow and are making money hand over fist).
What I'd REALLY like to know is how long before they take those jobs we RE-TRAIN for away and send them overseas????
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
were you arround in the 70's? surely you don't think it was better then do you? The numbers I gave you were not made up. there was in fact 10-12% interest rates. try buying a home with those kinds of rates. inflation was likewise running in excess of 10%, and unemployment was arround 12% also. The misery index was created durring the 70's for the explicit purpose of measuring just how bad things were, and stagflation is a real word that was used to describe the economy of the time. stagnant economy with high inflation.
There is a reason that stupid peanut farmer was trounced in '80, and why reagan was re-elected by the largest landslide in election history.
Carter just continued the mess that was there.
I dropped off my resume at Delphi, yesterday. My step-dad thinks they will be hirring within' the next year once these new contracts get off the ground. There are some with recall UAW seniority rights from Coopersville, that are making the transfer.
-Rocky
We lost most of our Union members when the Pipeline was completed in 1977. The Local 959 went from 25k members to about 12k members.
My view of the UAW: There control over the operation of the factories was bad for the auto makers and the Union. When the Big 3 needed to modernize the UAW had too much say over what could be done. The Union made it easier to go build factories in Mexico or Canada than fight the UAW over updating the factories in the USA. I also blame the UAW for not being farsighted enough to cut out health benefits for retirees. That is a license to steal for the insurance companies. And that is exactly what they are doing. When you have a goose that is laying golden eggs you protect it. The UAW was not protecting the Big 3 as they could have.
Some here just worked two jobs reducing the hours on the second job if they were working at the auto-related plants.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Experience is knowing when you have made the same mistake twice."
Last time I checked, UAW leaders diddn't wear turbans
-Rocky
Delphi: "Were trying to exit bankruptcy and save the company"
Ron G: "We're sick of Delphi, if they dont give us what we want we'll go on strike"
Yes, you do that. You shut them down and put them out of business... lose even more jobs, that'll teach em! Solidarity brothers, we'll win the fight!
Yes, and lose the war, but who's counting?
They can negotiate what would be a pretty decent contract and help the situation or they can go on with their long ingrained habit and kill the company.
I like to think that both sides have learned enough over the years to figure some of this out. You don't just accidentally lose half your market share.
"The use of temporary workers is actually more important to companies than eliminating the jobs bank, which gets all the attention," said Alan Baum, analyst with the Planning Edge, a Birmingham, Michigan, firm that studies product and production trends. "The companies all want to use more temporary workers," he said."
GM-UAW Talks: Temporary Workers Are a Sticking Point
"For the UAW, the risk of jeopardizing the turnarounds of GM, Ford and Chrysler puts union jobs in peril as well. Further, the UAW has shown extreme patience and pragmatism with auto suppliers in terms of continuing to negotiate without striking. Look how long the UAW negotiated with bankrupt auto supplier Delphi to achieve its goals without a strike."
UAW-Big Three Talks: The Clock Is Ticking
A MarketWatch commentator suggests there could be a short strike against GM to allow UAW workers to let off some steam.
The political season is gearing up fast - is there any reason to think that the UAW would call a strike, even a short one, to help weed out candidates the union would support?
The UAW-GM, workers are faced with similar terms and conditions. I doubt we will see terms and conditions as bad as those the Delphi, workers accepted. :sick:
-Rocky
There will never be contracts like your dad and I worked under. Too many outside forces are working against the working man. I watched our health care go from 100% medical, dental & eycare for life, to 70% medical, 50% dental and $100 per year in eyecare. All under a Teamster provided plan. When I retired it was costing the company over $5 per hour for that lousy coverage. Health care costs are out of control. It is not GMs or the UAWs fault. It is our society that has to have every medical test under the sun, to cover the Drs. behind. Those MRI machines in every hospital cost over a million dollars, plus routine maintenance. Don't get me started on malpractice insurance. That costs you and I a bunch out of every office visit. You can thank hacks like John Edwards for those high premiums. He has a 28,000 square foot mansion built on malpractice lawsuits. Think anyone he represented can afford that kind of home???
In about 1989 we lost our Fitness centers with free membership & 100% legal paid. Got 2 divorces all paid for via our free legal. Our 2006 contract was cut up after I left the bargaining unit. The guys left behind have less sick leave and vacation. It is bleak being a Union member. Even worse working for a non-union company.
WalMart anyone????
I have to say again. THIS IS NOT A GOOD TIME TO STRIKE. Take the cuts and see if the Big 3 gain any market share. Don't give the automakers reason to go to Mexico or China.
PS
I am paying for my own insurance under Kaiser. It is better coverage for less money.
The bottom line is Reagan, gave tax breaks to business that off-shored or went south of the border thus that is why you saw such a expansion of manufactoring fleeing the country leaving empty buildings that once employed americans with good jobs. We once upon a time had a solid balance of service and manufactoring jobs. Now both fields have been expolited thanks to the foreign workers here legally and illegally andofcourseperforming the work over sea's. Free Trade, has been the biggest economic disaster on record.
However gagrice, is right about the reasons why health care is so expensive. I'll add that the illegal alien problem surely has contributed to it as much if not more to the sheer cost of health care as the uninsured.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I personally think they are going regardless.......I however do agree the UAW, should take some concessions but I don't think it would be fair for the UAW, to roll over and die either this contract. I think because the UAW, will ultimately end up taking concessions they should get something in return. Signed promises of X amount of new plants and other investments to be built by UAW workers.
-Rocky
How do you figure? reagans economic expansion was the larest since the post war boom, and was a complet 180 degre turnaround from the previous 10 years. The proof of reagans policis is in the way people view him. As I said before, he was relected in the largest landslide in the countries history. only lost 1 state, and that was mondale's home state of MN. George H.W. bush was elected entirely on reagans coattails. and lastly, when the man died, he was mourned for a week, with millions lining up to view his casket.
The only people that considered "reaganomics" a failure were a small smattering of people who just don't like republicans. The vast majoity of the country agreed 100% with his econmic policies becaue they worked.
The vast majoity of the country agreed 100% with his econmic policies becaue they worked.
I think Ross Perot, explained that one to the country 15 years ago and when people were laughing at him then aren't laughing at him now.
-Rocky
Lots of docs own testing labs (and hospitals too) and send themselves business. It's called self-referring. As always, follow the money. Kaiser is one of the insurance companies trying to crack down on the unneeded testing (link). Lots of good reading out there about defensive medicine, but it's not related to the UAW so I'll quit there.
Re the UAW, I'm not convinced that the rank and file would avoid a strike at all costs. Lots of them have seen their pay and hours get attacked while the middle managers and higher level folks screw up in various ways yet still get paychecks (and bonuses). Some of the rank and file think their union bosses are too friendly with management as well and are going wonder what was left at the bargaining table when a proposed contract deal is made.
I wonder how long the billion dollar UAW strike fund would last? (Detroit News)
Oh, and the deadline has passed - GM, UAW contract extended "hour-to-hour". (Reuters)
-Rocky
These contracts, while great for workers, are no longer sustainable. It reminds me of the buggy whip speech that Danny DeVito made in the movie "Other People's Money".
The truth of the matter is that the market has changed drastically, and it's either adapt or die. In a perfect world it would be 1955 all over again, 97% of the cars sold here would be made here, we would be the world's dominant economy, life would be great and it would eb sunny every day.
Guess what, that only exists in TV Land reruns anymore.
THIS IS NOT A GOOD TIME TO STRIKE. Take the cuts and see if the Big 3 gain any market share. Don't give the automakers reason to go to Mexico or China.
Best statement I've seen in here yet.
And those Delphi workers who took a pay cut seem to have had choices... the other choice was vote against the new contract and lose their jobs.
Frankly, I can't see how you or anyone else who bolts cars together for a living is worth that kind of a contract.
It isn't rocket science,or brain surgery,its assembling cars. To be fair, I also don't think the execs are worth their compensation either. the difference is,it is easier to fire the execs.
I am a firm believer that compensation should match performance.
If I don't sell a car,I don't get paid.
I'm not saying you don't deserve a living wage,but union contracts have gone so far beyond that,its ridiculous.
The UAW is blind if they think that they can continue to live in the past. the American auto indusstry simply cannot continue to support those contracts. They just can't.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Frankly, I can't see how you or anyone else who bolts cars together for a living is worth that kind of a contract.
Only pompous, arrogant people make comments like that. Who are YOU to assert what someone is "worth"??? They assemble cars that cost between $15-70K, so I think getting $25-35/hr is just fine. It's not your, mine or their fault that there are 12 MILLION people here that don't belong here who use OUR hospitals as PCP's and pay NOTHING!!!! It's not our fault that someone comes out of surgery w/ a scratch that wasn't there before and thinks they're entitled to $250,000 pain and suffering.
It isn't rocket science,or brain surgery,:
Who the hell is a brain surgeon to hold MY life hostage for $100,000 surgery, if I can't afford to pay??? If they're worth that, then a blue collar worker is worth $30/hr!!!!
the difference is,it is easier to fire the execs.:
Sure, for several million dollars. You think they'll leave just because you tell them to??? Not a shot in HELL!!! Look at that fat cat running Chrysler: on a $200 MILLION golden parachute from Home Depot? Hell, fire me and give me $1 mil, and I'll go work for peanuts somewhere else.
Think about that; ONE PERSON gets 200 MIL, and nobody says boo, yet they ask for fully paid healthcare for the rest of their lives, and EVERYBODY is in an uproar.
I'll guarantee it costs GM MORE to pay off the last 5 guys that ran them and their mistakes plus the next 5 guys and THEIR mistakes than it will to pay the healthcare of all the unionized workers.
Hell the $2 BILLION they pissed away on FIAT would more than pay for the VEBA GM wants to set up for the UAW.
Some recent links:
Auto, electronics workers get pay hikes (Japan Times)
Union warns Porsche on changing rules at VW (MSNBC)
Strike closes EC’s auto giants (Dispatch Online, South Africa - Sep 13, 2007)
"Union leaders accepted Hyundai's offer of a 5.8 percent increase in basic monthly salary for each worker, an increase in the annual bonus, and a pair of separate lump-sum payments, the two sides said."
Hyundai has tentative union contract (Detroit News)
Bajaj Auto offers talks with Akurdi unions next week (The Economic Times, India)
That's it, send ALL OUR MONEY overseas, we'll just print more.
How hard you are to replace as a worker determines your worth.Since auto assembly doesn't require any special skills or education,line workers are easily replaceable.
Now, paying someone $25/hr isn't the issue.
It is ALL the other compensation that is over the top.
Compensation that people with more valuable skills don't recieve.
I am not blaming the UAW for getting these contracts in the first place,the manufacturers deserve their share of blame.
However, the market conditions have changed,and it is no longer realistic for the UAW to demand this kind of compensation. If they persist,they will simply find themselves without jobs,and consequently without any members.
That's it, send ALL OUR MONEY overseas, we'll just print more.
Don't be silly.
Remember all the foreign automakers that have plants here?
Why is that exactly?
Because it makes more financial sense to build cars here than in their home countries.
You don't receive it, because you don't demand it. I demand it, I GET IT: FULLY PAID HEALTHCARE, VISION, AND DENTAL, with NO CO-PAY on PREMIUMS.
As far as the American car market goes, I don't think GM, Ford, and Chrysler will take their toys and go running to China and India to build their cars if they don't get their way. There would be TREMENDOUS backlash if they did. In the same way Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (as well as Hyundai and the Germans) will never abandon the US manufacturing segemnt: There are too many people here that wont accept that part of manufacturing leaving the US. The [non-permissible content removed] Big 3 don't like to wave Old Glory over their products for fun, they see the value in their products being "US MADE". The main reason they aren't unionized is because considering the part of the country they manufacture in, it's tough to convince the workers otherwise. They probably have it better than they ever have anyways. If they DID unionize, rest assured the foreign manufactuers wouldn't go anywhere. Old Glory is TOO VALUABLE a marketing asset.
BTW, it's pretty cynical to bash the UAW over a "potential" strike. While I wont say it WONT happen, considering both sides are negotiating I'd have to say the beancounters on BOTH sides have told them what they can afford, and it probably will come down to who blinks first.
After that, both sides will go home and declare victory, saying they are satisfied w/ the new contract.
I'll say this volvomax, not all jobs in those autoplants are as easy as you think and many require skills or OJT to become proficient. My father's job he taught to his replacement for 4 months and the guy still was only adequate dad said at best.
-Rocky
That is probably the best post I've ever read in this forum including it's past names/titles.
-Rocky
I have to agree. A Japanese company that pulled up and took off if they lost an election to the UAW would be lambasted in the press. They would just have to negotiate and quit treating their employees as a disposable commodity. I would love to see a couple Toyota plants go Union. Level out the playing field.
If our government had any huevos they would add a healthy tariff to every car built outside the USA. Especially from Japan. Play their game for a while and see how they like it.
The Japanese do a much better job of protecting their workforce at home than we do.
Here's the problem, Health car costs have skyrocketed. Foreign competition is generally not unionized and therefore has a substantial cost advantage over the domestic manufacturers.
Long term one of two things is going to happen...
1) Detroit will continue with their enormous retiree and current employee costs. They will continue to struggle and, eventually, end up like British Leyland (BL alone is reason enough to dislike unions). You'll all be out of work.
2) Detroit will be forced to continue to move production to foreign countries. UAW membership ranks will dwindle.
3) The UAW will wake up and realize that keeping their members employed is their primary objective and work with Detroit.
Pick one of the three. But free full benefits for life is simply not sustainable with the way the market has adapted. Period.