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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Indeed.

    Worked for it is such a slippery term. A very large percentage of the very wealthy - the ones deciding whether to save $2 million on a yacht purchase - earned their money through that hard process known as inheritance.

    The ones that got that rich by working without a multi-million dollar start are few and far between.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Worked for it is such a slippery term. A very large percentage of the very wealthy - the ones deciding whether to save $2 million on a yacht purchase - earned their money through that hard process known as inheritance.

    would you care to try and back that up?

    spend your money how you see fit, and let other spend theirs how they see fit. regardless of how someone gets their money, its none of your business what they do with it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    iluv,

    I just listed my resume online pal, for Boeing. It's not like I got a job offer yet. If I was offered a job, I'd really consider it as Boeing, is one of the few great manufactoring company's left. ;)

    I will keep you posted if I hear anything. ;)

    -Rocky
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    Airbus right now and their future looks bright. If you get an offer I wouldn't blame you if you did want to seriously consider it. In my case, they did me a huge favor in laying me off. :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    DETROIT - The Detroit Three automakers all are struggling with declining U.S. market share, health care costs and bloated infrastructure, but they have unique issues that could make it difficult for the United Auto Workers to impose a contract with General Motors Corp. on Ford and Chrysler.

    Talks between GM and the UAW continued Tuesday afternoon, GM spokesman Tom Wickham said, the fourth day of bargaining since their contract was set to expire.

    Negotiators were optimistic but progress was slow as bargainers dealt with the details of a major health care agreement as well as changes to plant work rules, according to a person briefed on the talks. The person requested anonymity because the talks were private.

    In a letter sent Monday night to local union leaders, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and his bargaining team said they may establish a firm deadline if the talks don't accelerate. Because they have been extending their contract on an hour-by-hour basis, GM workers could strike at any time.

    "We have made progress in many areas of the discussions with GM but there are several major issues separating the parties that must be resolved," said the letter, which was obtained by The Associated Press.

    Wickham would not comment on the UAW letter.

    The UAW chose GM as the lead company in the negotiations last week. Under the union's long-standing practice of pattern bargaining, the UAW is expected to reach an agreement with GM and then ask Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC to accept similar terms.

    The companies entered this year's talks in similarly precarious situations. All three lost money last year and their combined share of the U.S. market has plunged from 73 percent in 1996 to 54 percent last year. All are restructuring and struggling with high costs and overcapacity at U.S. plants. They say wages and benefits for U.S. hourly workers cost them $25 more per hour than their Japanese rivals.

    Efraim Levy, a senior industry analyst with Standard & Poor's rating agency, said pattern bargaining will work this year because, for the most part, the automakers are seeking the same things. They want to hold the line on wages and make changes to things like the jobs bank, which pays workers even when they're laid off.

    GM is pushing hardest for the formation of a UAW-run trust fund that would take over the automakers' estimated $90 billion in retiree health care costs, Levy said, but Ford and Chrysler also would benefit, since the fund would allow them to remove those obligations from their books and insulate them from further escalation in health care costs.

    But the companies also have significant differences. David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research, said the UAW probably will tailor the agreements to individual automakers.

    "We're into new earth, and circumstances are very different between the companies," said Cole.

    Cole said Ford may negotiate temporary wage cuts, for example, because its financial situation is the most dire.

    Chrysler's status as a private company also could affect the pattern. Chrysler's new owner, Cerberus Capital Management LP, is focused on creating short-term cash rather than achieving long-term cash savings, so it may not want to commit large amounts of cash to a health care fund. Since Chrysler's shares are no longer publicly traded, it also won't be able to contribute stock to a health care trust fund.

    "Chrysler might deviate just a little bit because the health care isn't the overriding issue for them," said Erich Merkle, vice president of auto industry forecasting for consulting company IRN Inc. in Grand Rapids.

    Chrysler also wants to shed some of its non-automotive businesses as part of the contract talks, something Ford and GM aren't asking for.

    GM is pushing the union to adopt more flexible work rules to make its plants more competitive. If the Detroit Three could reduce job classifications and relax other union work rules to the level of their Japanese competitors, they could save $200 per vehicle, according to Laurie Harbour-Felax, an operations expert and managing director of Stout Risius Ross.

    "A Toyota worker typically has other responsibilities, like cleaning their work area and doing certain elements of maintenance activity," she said. "In a typical Big Three plant, those workers don't have that same range of job responsibility."

    Ford has gone further than its U.S. rivals in establishing new work rules at nearly all of its U.S. plants, a two-year effort that is saving the company $800 million a year, spokeswoman Marcey Evans said. So Ford may push for something else.

    "Ford isn't looking for that kind of savings because they've already gotten it," said Aaron Bragman, an industry analyst with Global Insight. "The three automakers are in very different positions."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_talks_135

    -Rocky
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    It doesn't interest me enough to fully research it but last time Forbes reported on their 400 richest Americans and reported how they came about it over 50% had inherited it - more if you include the ones that were given million dollar businesses right off the bat.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    SW WA is an economic wasteland compared to many other areas of the state. And it has the social ills to prove it.


    One does NOT increase their stature in the minds of thinking men by weakly trying to disparage others who are more informed and intelligent. :P
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Playing off of someone's "Leavens" is nice work if you can get it, however, not all "rich" folk received an inheritance. The 400 richest Americans is not the group that includes men and women who worked hard and are worth 10 million or less. Through frugal spending, conservative living values, & taking risks, the man who came into this world with nothing can accumulate quite a bit of wealth. We all have our talents and gifts. Some have made a fortune in Real Estate, some in the Stock Market, and many in various production businesses which have provided employment for others unwilling or not interested in attaining lofty financial goals. It is not easy to identify who these "little" millionaires are because they don't flaunt their wealth, but they are out there and they worked, risked, & made it. I say, "Good for them." ;)
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, I agree on the good for them.

    My comments were directed at the guys that were trying to save $2 million on a yacht. I don't think the folks you describe (and there are indeed a lot of those) are the folks buying the yachts.

    I certainly have nothing against accumulating wealth. Wish I were better at it myself.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Most people in this country that are considered millionaires did not inherit the money. 80% made it on their own and most have hit that milestone in the past 10 years. Good for them.

    Who cares when, where, what, how, etc. the 400 richest in this country did are doing. Seems many always are worrying about what others are doing, but should be worried about themselves.

    Who cares if they inherited it, good for them. I plan to leave as much as possible to my kids. It may not put them on a Forbes list, but hopefully I can leave enough to allow them a luxury or two.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    It was only an issue on the "save $2 million a yacht question."

    Net worth is a funny thing. I wonder how many paper millionaires will lose that status with the real estate bust. I know if you looked at it right now I could say that I lost $150K or more on my house due to the bust, but it wasn't real money. It was just theoretically what I could have snagged if I timed the market just right, sold at the top, rented for a bit and bought at the bottom. Interesting to play with but nothing I'm concerned with. On the other hand, I know people that think that way and act like the market has somehow come into their house and pried the money from their hands.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I wouldn't include primary real estate in the formula for net worth. I know some reports do and others don't.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,439
    Who is looking to increase stature? I am simply stating facts. I know a bit about that area, and I know it has some rampant issues. Denying it will not make the problems vanish. But, at least the housing is cheap...for the price of a boring old McMansion in my area, I could become a veritable slum lord down there, owning block upon block of decaying old housing, as so many of the monied families in those towns do.

    I see that increasing stature mainly among certain senior participants here, ones who likely do have the knowledge nor credentials to judge levels of information nor intelligence ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,439
    Those with <10M worth aren't the ones looking for cut rate yachts to flaunt.

    Good for them does apply...to some.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's their money. they worked for it, they earned it. they should be able to spend it however or wherever they see fit, on whatever they want. it's really none of your, or anyone else's business.

    You are absolutely correct. That does not mean I have to respect them for doing that. Just as I have no respect for someone that spends the food and rent money on booze or gambling leaving their children hungry. In both cases I have made a judgment that has no effect on that person. Just an observation. If I were to go to the shoe store and find two pairs of shoes that I like and one is made in China for two bucks less than the pair made here, I would chose the pair made here. For me to do anything else would be anti-American.
  • kronykrony Member Posts: 110
    I think UAW workers are being welcomed to the real world. This year my company (a Fortune 500 manufacturer) changed our health care to a program to a $3000 deductible for salary employees. Certainly one way to get your act together to get healthy.

    Pretty tough blow at the first of the year if you are making 30-40K...I think we'll see this type of deal everywhere in another 5 years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I retired and my bank of hours ran out I found a health care plan with a $2700 deductible. It saved me about $350 per month in premiums. If I get a serious illness the deductible will seem like peanuts.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Does it cover 100% after your deductible ?

    -Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yes, with no lifetime cap. Our Teamster plan was $1 million lifetime. Most of the other HMOs are $5 million.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Holy Smokes gagrice, that's really not bad.On my old policy with pantex we had a 1500 deductible or $3K family and it paid 90/10 and I thought that was good. We went from $1 million to $2 million a couple years ago on the cap. How much was your deductible on your Teamster plan ? :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Teamster plan was only $200 deductible per year for the family. Paid about 70% with a maximum out of pocket in a year of $1500. Dental was not that great, about 50% covered up to $2000 per year.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well honestly that seems like a good plan also. You did say the plan that you got now is $350.00 a month cheaper, right ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yes, I pay $263 per month. It is with Kaiser that is only in a few states. It is here and Hawaii, so that is all I am concerned about. So far I have not needed it and am thankful.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Next year when I turn 65 the premium will go down to about $100 per month as a supplemental for Medicare.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Wow, that's cheap. So the Teamster healthcare monthly premium is $263+$350=$613 ??????

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I doubt many of those "mini-millionaires" would be interested in blowing all their wealth on something as frivolous as a yacht. Most of them live modestly and drive 20 year-old Buicks.

    I have little respect for newbie real estate millionaires because many of them are responsible for the housing mess we're currently in. I know one young guy who made it big in real estate and now he's a great big (word that can't be used in polite company). He was such a nice kid when I knew him in high school but success went to his head.

    The kind of guy I admire is one who has a mundane business like the owner of the excellent car wash/detailing salon on the Boulevard and keeps a low profile. Heck, my best friend and his wife are successful physical therapists with offices all over their region. This is a guy who would like to buy a new Corvette every year but won't because his priorities are his business and family. I doubt very much he'd be blowing his money on a yacht, let alone a poorly-made Chinese-manufactured one.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    have little respect for newbie real estate millionaires because many of them are responsible for the housing mess we're currently in.

    Only the mortgagors are responsible for the housing mess as nobody used force to make them take out an ARM without reading the fine print. The RE sales force enabled the sale, but the primary responsibility of the housing mess is on the backs of the people without virtue who tried to house their families in homes they couldn't afford. :(
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Only the mortgagors are responsible for the housing mess as nobody used force to make them take out an ARM without reading the fine print. The RE sales force enabled the sale, but the primary responsibility of the housing mess is on the backs of the people without virtue who tried to house their families in homes they couldn't afford. :(


    I agree, but at same time I do feel bad for low educated/ income people that had a conventional mortgage or a home that was or nearly paid for and got suckered into a magically low payment via refinancing with an ARM or interest only loan with a ridiculously low introductory payment.

    It's a tough call, at what point do we step in to save people from themselves.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Along with your question is, "At what point does a person stop passing the buck for his mistakes onto others?"

    Virtue commands taking responsibility for your actions.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    That's a tough one. For the ones that figured they were becoming new land barons and didn't figure out that it was all a bubble I don't feel too much pity.

    I do feel sorry for folks I slightly know who got hooked on a sub-prime mortgage and kept sinking worse and worse into it and ended up losing their house. They just aren't that bright to figure out that the numbers were just completely of of whack.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    You know, you can bang on the yacht guy,but most of us really aren't any different.
    Look at Wal Mart.
    At the end of the day,people shop price and don't really think about where something comes from,or how that impacts the economy.
    All they know is,the saved $X dollars,and thats enough for them.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    You know, you can bang on the yacht guy,but most of us really aren't any different.
    Look at Wal Mart.


    Very true. We all (at least most) want cheap stuff.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Along with your question is, "At what point does a person stop passing the buck for his mistakes onto others?"

    Virtue commands taking responsibility for your actions.


    I can't disagree
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Responsibility extends beyond the individual to the organization, be it a corporation, government, mortgage company or union. They all have duties, obligations, and burdens.

    Contract talks continue to grind on. (Reuters)

    This is day 5 without a contract between the UAW and GM if you're keeping score.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    At the end of the day,people shop price and don't really think about where something comes from,or how that impacts the economy.
    All they know is,the saved $X dollars,and thats enough for them.

    Then they complain to their co-workers that all they got was a measly 25 cent raise this year.
    That is one way it stagnates the economy. Granted, I am insinuating higher inflation, but in many ways thats what it takes to make the world go around.

    There's no shame in asking for a little extra in the paycheck when you find out that your favorite grinder at the deli went up 50 cents, (among other things)nor is there shame in not complaining about the price hike. These are the things that drive the economy.

    People are becoming "dependant" on cheap products because they feel they aren't getting ahead, or are falling behind in life, and they're too afraid to stand up for themselves and demand better pay or go look elsewhere for a better paying job.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    fintail: Not to mention how much many of them "worked" for thir money is easily debated.

    Read The Millionaire Next Door, which focuses on people who have a net worth of over $1 million, and Richistan, which focuses on the super rich.

    Virtually all of them earned their fortunes through a combination of hard work and innovation, and, in the case of the "lower class" millionaires, an avoidance of unnecessary expenditures.

    The idea that most of the wealthy inherited their money has been outdated for years.

    Incidentally, those who DID inherit their wealth are more likely to fall on the left side of the political spectrum in their beliefs than those who worked for it, especially if they live on the coasts.

    Which is why it's best not to indulge in stereotypes. ;)

    fintail: This mindset is leading to the exploding socio-economic gaps of this socity, and the ills which are following.

    Which mindset? The one where they "can't stand criticism," or the one in which "they do not care"? Those are two very different attitudes.

    And if there is a correlation between society's ills and income distribution, then one must explain why those ills exploded during the 1960s, when income distribution was more even than it is today, and then improved during the 1990s, when income distribution was more polarized.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    But that doesn't apply to the automobile industry.

    GM, Ford and Chrysler are being whipped by Honda, Toyota and Nissan in the mass market, and BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz in the "class" market.

    Those foreign nameplate vehicles aren't selling on lower prices. In most cases, after rebates, the domestic model is CHEAPER than the foreign model. But more people still prefer the foreign models.

    Remember that Walmart (everyone's favorite whipping boy in these discussions) doesn't manufacture or sell cars, and the Chinese aren't ready for primetime, and probably won't be for at least another decade, at a minimum.

    GM, Ford and Chrysler are getting beaten by companies building cars either right here in the U.S.A., or in Germany and Japan, which are no longer low-wage countries.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I liked Die Broke too.

    The author didn't intend the audience to be the automakers though. ;)
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    But that doesn't apply to the automobile industry.

    Actually, it does.
    the japanese(and later the Koreans) came here with cars priced below comparable American cars.
    Once the established themselves,the prices went up.
    Even Lexus operated that way,undercutting Mercedes Benz.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    People are becoming "dependant" on cheap products because they feel they aren't getting ahead, or are falling behind in life, and they're too afraid to stand up for themselves and demand better pay or go look elsewhere for a better paying job.

    I really don't think that has anything to do with it.
    Even people of means will nickel and dime you if they can.
    What is the one thing that is relentlessly drilled here on Edmunds? "How much discount can I get"
    Unless its a "gotta have it" or status item,people are just programmed to shop.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,677
    Are we allowed to start a pool as to when the UAW GM will settle?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oooh, good idea.

    I'm in for Sunday, September 30th at 6pm. Such an optimist. :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,677
    October 13, (2007)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,677
    Steve said:

    >September 30th at 6pm.

    We hope that's 2007? ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, 2007 - I'm that optimistic at least, lol.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,439
    It is also best we do not indulge in propagandistic publications, with unjustifiable condescension... :sick:

    Are you somehow trying to make a half-baked argument that social ills do not increase as income disparities increase?

    It is extremely amusing how some people become very defensive when the uber-rich are taken to task in even the slightest way. It's almost as if these people are being insulted personally. Don't kid yourself, you will never be even close to them.

    You would be well advised from demanding what anyone 'must' do...
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    their time defending the UAW wages, and there are many who believe that it just ain't worth $35/hour to tighten 5 lug nuts on a wheel, the market seems to be a cruel master...

    They may be paying the $35/hour, but to an constantly shrinking pool of folks who are doing it...while the UAW makes its demands as tho they live in a vacuum, the Big 3 are losing market share by the day...

    I often wonder why the market share has shrunk so far so fast...do buyers REALLY try to avoid union made products, believing them to be inferior, or are they even AWARE that the Big 3 have unionized workers???

    Is the UAW so damn stupid that they can continue asking for the moon while their products do not sell???...I remember back in the 1980s that UAW folks would not even SIT in a Honda or Toyota because of their resentment of the product...now if these folks had the brains of the average dog, they would have at least tried to discover WHY people started deserting them in droves for them newfangled Japanese cars...but no, they stuck their heads in the sand and just wished that they would go away...NOT ONE THOUGHT ABOUT ANY SELF REFLECTION, AND THAT MAYBE THE QUALITY OF THEIR PRODUCT WAS LACKING...that is why I have little respect for the union...they put on their blinders rather than examine what was perceived to be a better product (it was, by a long shot) and try and make themselves better...

    If the union bosses had said at local meetings that they need to make a better product and maybe compete with a better product, we might be in a different world right now...

    But all the union did was "full speed ahead with no self examination", continue making the same crap that got them into trouble, and they wonder why the chickens have come home to roost...

    If GM was smart, they would take a strike, deplete the union strike fund, and bust the union once and for all...then rehire the workers who are not problem workers, and have a work force like the Hondas/Toy plants...once you can fire them at will, their workmanship will usually go up, because there are CONSEQUENCES to shoddy workmanship...now there isn't...
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    You've stated the "Inconvenient Truth" very well. ;)
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