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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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    bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Our attitude torwards working people in this country is at a all-time low.

    Strikers are, by definition, NOT working people.
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,177
    I'm sure those hypercritical of union workers' pay will want to closely inspect pay and other benefits for the upper management and executives of the motor vehicle companies to see how their pay compares to other workers in this county--and even to other executives' pay in similar positions in other countries.

    Sometimes people pick which workers they wish to criticize while other, gross raping of the companies goes on.

    Besides remuneration "schemes" one can look at business decisions made by executives in the past and blame them for poor performance by their company. None of the workers assembling vehicles at Moraine plant last winter got to choose the softness of the plastics or the shape of the air conditioning vents nor the motor's cam location (OHV/OHC) for the product; they don't spend their day in an office in a white shirt pushing paper. :blush:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ronald Reagan, yes broke up the air traffic controller strike and perhaps that is one reason why I disliked him so much ???? Trust me I wasn't crying the day he passed away

    Me neither. Ronald Reagan was no friend of the working man and his legacy still continues to this day.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    has NEVER created one job in this country, only the capitalists and employers they work for...that is why I believe that rights should go to the capitalist, not the worker...

    Only one Henry Ford created millions of jobs, but all those workers did not create Henry Ford...

    If there were no capitalists, all those "working people" would not be working, as the masses depend on others to employ them (I am referring to big business here, not so much the corner pizza store)

    "Our grandparents and great grandparents would be spinning in their graves if they could see how weak, brainwashed, and stupid, this country has become"...I agree, when you take a look at the average childish mentality of the union worker, who destroys the means of production if he can't have his way...yes, that lack of intelligence would shock our great grandparents, who actually came over here with a real work ethic...the same will never be said about any union member...

    And I agree with previous posters..."knowing" about the current crop of sabotage, who in their right mind would hurry to buy a Big 3 product ever again...one would have to be a fool, idiot, or union member with A-plan benefits, at least as long as Ford remains in business...
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,177
    >And I agree with previous posters..."knowing" about the current crop of sabotage, who in their right mind would hurry to buy a Big 3 Georgetown Toyota/Smyrna Nissan product ever again...one would have to be a fool, idiot, or ...

    Imagine all the disgruntled people working the temporary positions at those plants hoping for full time but will never be upgraded. Do some searching on the net. Disgruntled workers aren't unique to union folk.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very true. There are disgruntled workers in every workplace. As the workforce at the foreign auto maker's plants age you will see a lot more complaining. You will also see more lawsuits generated by folks getting laid off because at 55 they cannot run, jump, lift as much as an 18 year old employee. Part timers will not hang around if they can find a decent company to work for. Honda & Toyota's day is coming as their workforce ages. We do have laws in this country to protect older workers. Too bad we do not have decent laws concerning part time workers.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Vincent Quijano was not reluctant at all on a sick day to join his co-workers when they marched off the job Monday morning at a GM (Charts, Fortune 500) assembly and metal fabricating plants in Lordstown that makes Chevrolet Cobalts and Pontiac G5s.

    Classic, this guy is to sick to go to work but not to sick to carry a picket sign.

    The article can be found at GM workers worried
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    im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Rocky,

    Explain to me how a long strike would increase job security for GM's workers? If GM Loses a fortune in this strike, how is that going to secure them the funds needed to guarantee new model development?

    It won't.

    Let's clear a few things up..

    1) It's in GM's best interest to stay afloat. Now, I understand that the typical UAW member doesn't seem to appreciate this, but the fact remains that if GM can't stay afloat and stay competitive, then they will go under and then NOBODY will have a job.

    If you don't understand that, please let me know and I will be happy to clarify it.

    2) GM Can no longer afford the incredible benefits that they have been paying their workers.

    Period.

    What's more important, benefits that are among the highest in the world for now or ensuring that GM is around in 20 years when you guys need to cash those retirement checks.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    GM will make whatever deal they have to with the workers, if they indeed want to stay afloat. They've been doing that since the union was formed in the 30's. The shareholders won't stand for idle plants, and the management won't have anything to manage if they walk away from the contract talks. It's not the end of the world, it's just two gorillas negotiating. (Ok, with the decline in union membership and the decline in GM's fortunes, maybe it's more like a Jerry Lawler/Andy Kaufman grudge match.) :D

    Retirement checks are backed up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. Benefits may get cut if GM goes banko but the feds will have to change the law or not fund PBGC for the checks to go away. My sister's retirement is getting funded that way after her employer went Chapter 11 a few years ago and dumped the pension obligations on the taxpayer.
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    euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Again, Unearned Union pride causes another strike. Middlefinger should go to Management with hat in hand, apologize for calling a dumb strike and sincerely ask for forgiveness.

    Then, accept the facts that cannot change and agree to work with less benefits, no job securities, reduced retired benefits including medical, but at least having a job! ;)
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    "If you don't understand that, please let me know and I will be happy to clarify it."

    I wouldn't bet on that doing any good.

    This has to be the dumbest strike I have seen in my life. There's been good reason for no auto strikes in 30 years. The companies are too fragile.

    GM can deal with this for a few weeks but if it goes longer than that I will have to change my bet on the first US car company to go under.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    imidazsol97: I'm sure those hypercritical of union workers' pay will want to closely inspect pay and other benefits for the upper management and executives of the motor vehicle companies to see how their pay compares to other workers in this county--and even to other executives' pay in similar positions in other countries.

    I'm sure that those who are concerned about the gap between worker and executive pay will be buying a Honda or a Toyota, as those companies typically pay their CEOs a much smaller amount than the domestic companies pay their CEOs.

    Given your concern regarding this matter - based on repeated posts - I'm sure that any day now you'll be trading that LeSabre in on an Avalon. ;)
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    volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    GM will make whatever deal they have to with the workers, if they indeed want to stay afloat.

    Not this time, I think.
    The stakes for GM are simply to high.
    This time I think the union is going to have to make some serious concessions.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    that there are disgruntled workers everywhere, but no one if forcing them to stay, let them find something better...

    The reason there are no "protections" for part time workers is that they are more transient than servers in the average diner...

    Remember, many of the import auto plants are in the South, where the prevailing wage was nowhere near what I would bet Honda and Toyota pay...they probably make more working parttime than they did previously working full time...

    Despite what you may like to think, workers are really quite expendable (forget my attitude, it is THEY who make themselves so easily expendable as they move from job to job every 3-6 months or so and will not stay in one place, so who can count on them at all???...then, everyone jumps up and screams that it is THEIR right to move on, yet they think that employers should give a hoot about them???...give me a break...) and it is the employers who should have the rights...

    ALWAYS REMEMBER: it is not the worker who makes this economy run, despite what false pride makes them think, it is the employer who, hopefully, makes sufficient profit to create a job that employs that worker...no profit, no job...and you can take all those "worker rights" and flush them down the toilet, because if no employer/capitalist makes sufficient profit, then the so-called "important" worker sits home and eats his futon couch for dinner...

    Sometimes I am surprised that workers actually think they are important in the equation, when all they do is (hopefully) show up (hopefully) sober and leave at 5 pm...it is the owner who pays the bills, buys the inventory, and makes the business run...when employees someday understand that their jobs will NEVER exist unless there is profit, then we can talk sense...

    Nobody, but nobody ever started a business to "create jobs", they started a business to make profit for themselves...if the business grows so much they cannot handle it by themselves, a job is "created" out of thin air...if that profit is no longer there, neither is the job...

    So, for GM workers to demand that a car, some car, continue to be built in a plant (Chevy Cobalt, I believe) scheduled for 2009 shutdown is beyond ludicrous...those workers have no right to demand ANYTHING, and ought to be glad they are employed into 2009...reality is setting in and the union is just one large crybaby...

    And to sabotage the plants and possibly the finished product verifies to the world what I have been saying all along, that they have the mind of a 5 year old, and to follow their union leadership off the cliff makes them even dumber than even I thought they were...

    Is WalMart up in Michigan and Ohio???...I think they will shortly have a lot of apps for greeter, and I question whether these folks have the qualifications to be a greeter...

    Capitalism will only survive if the capitalists exist...10 million workers will accomplish nothing unless someone else, an employer, gives them something to do...when worker bees understand that concept, the world will be a better place...

    Karl Marx had it all wrong..."workers unite"...unite to do WHAT???...where are they until someone actually employs them???...and who, in their right mind, would even CONSIDER employing a former UAW member???...with their entitlement attitude???...if ever destruction was self-imposed, you are watching it unfold like a bad movie...
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    How companies treat their workers affects their bottom line. When you have someone like Nardelli whacking jobs at Home Depot, making people work part time without benefits and then skimming off excessive wages to pad his own pay and benefits, it's not only the workers who get shafted.

    All that business reputation trickles down and guys like me wound up driving the extra mile to Ace Hardware. That affects the stock performance and the board changes management.

    Wal-Mart supposedly has improved their employee relations and fewer of their employees are on food stamps now, and health benefits have gotten better. That info hasn't trickled down too far yet, in spite of Al Gore being on board with them on the energy efficiency side, and sales (and stock prices) are flat compared to Target over the last year.

    If GM (or Toyota or Ford) gets a rep for abusing the workers, then lots of people are going to go elsewhere to get a car. Another example would be the textile backlash re slave labor and Nike.

    So yeah, the worker is important in this equation.
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    im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    That most UAW members are well aware of the fact that they are not likely to get a job that's as good as what they have now should they get fired.

    In short, they have it pretty darned good right now and they know it. They also know what happened to other laid-off GM workers.. they didn't stumble into other jobs that were nearly as well paid as what they had.

    So I doubt that most UAW members are stupid enough to want a strike and that they are pragmatic.

    I think that the ones who are in fantasyland are, I hope, in the vocal minority.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I would hope that would be the case.

    I'm a a funny position here compared with the ones siding with one side or the other. There is no good middle ground that everyone is going to be happy with. I am quite sure that the remaining UAW workers at GM are filled with the stories of how well dad and grandpa were treated in the factory but that is gone and it is not retrievable. It's no fun adjusting downward economically but there's not any wiggle room here.

    Meanwhile, I'm with steve for more reasons than his outstanding first name. I find myself in Home Depot less and less for exactly that reason. Once I am at the local hardware store I find that while a price on a given item might be higher they'll deliver to my house for free. I also find much more helpful advice than I'd ever get at Home Depot.

    I am interested in doing business with good citizens be they corporate giants or the local business guy.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    btw, my sister's outfit went on strike a decade before she retired and she crossed the line. :shades:

    If the decision was easy, GM and the UAW would have had a contract well before the last one expired.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    "If the decision was easy, GM and the UAW would have had a contract well before the last one expired."

    Man, ain't that the truth. Now you are down to the reality they all knew they would have to face and teh two sides don't trust each other.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    GM Car Guru Lutz Silent as UAW Workers Hoist Picket Signs (Inside Line)
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    dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I think all GM upper management has been told to keep their mouths shut on this issue i.e. no public comments. I'm sure Lutz is seeing hhis dream of the electric car going down the drain.

    I just can't understand how the UAW thinks they can dictate the direction and business practices of GM. I wonder if all the members feel this way. The ones I saw on the news yesterday didn't seem happy that they were holding picket signs. If I were running GM, I would stick to my guns and break the union. A few weeks and many of the members will beg to come backc to work.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    my last post, and the (AJC) Atlanta Journal Constitution, Section D, Page 1, lead article...I will leave out the employee's name who was quoted..."It's a good cause," said XXX...a 31 year employee of the (Doraville) assembly plant. "We don't know what's going on, but we're pretty sure if we're striking it's for our benefit." (Bold added by me)...

    Let's see...he works (or at least draws a check, whether he works is another story) for GM, he is a union member for 31 years, he knows what is happening at GM and he no doubt receives union bulletins, and yet, he has no idea what is going on, but he is sure it is for his benefit???

    If this does not showcase the union intelligence and union mentality, I don't know what does...I could not have written this myself and had it this good...

    Can anybody spell "ignorant ostrich syndrome?"...but is it the rank and file or the leaders that are guilty of this???...or both???

    Many thanks to the AJC, for quoting in print what I have said for years...
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "This strike ... it helps no one," said Jessie Dominguez, chairman of the union local. "But you know, it sets the pattern for all American workers, whether you're unionized or not."

    That's from a story about a striking GM parts warehouse in California . link

    On the dealers side, "Predicting that the strike will be short, Whitney said the Buick, Cadillac GMC and Pontiac dealer has a 2 ½ -month supply of vehicles." (Same link)

    And this quote was of interest too:

    "Those planning to buy a GM vehicle should act quickly," Reed said. "Before the inventory dwindles down and negotiations become challenge as demand exceeds supply." (lots of good quotes from that link)
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    BTW, for all of my ranting, I am NOT justifying $400 million dollar parachutes or CEOs being paid $100 million just to leave the company...that is also ridiculous...

    But, I would gamble that if someone was never to buy a GM car again because of 1 of 2 reasons...1) the CEO is overpaid by $100 million, or, 2) the assembly workers sabotaged the product and sabotaged the plant, shutting GM down for another 2 weeks...I would bet Reason #1 would NEVER be the choice, whereas Reason #2 could truly destroy GM's remaining market share...

    How it treats its employees matters, but only up to a point...I know a number of folks who never heard of edmunds (yes, it can be true) but know that union folks are paid over $30/hour to tighten 5 nuts on lug bolts, and they think it is ridiculous, so don't be to sure they care how GM treats them, many probably feel that this showdown is long overdue and they are rooting for GM...only the mainstream media will only interview union folks to get their side of the story...how do I know this???

    Simple...Big 3 market share under 50%, and Japanese are increasing their market share...the market is speaking and the UAW and anyone that takes their side is ignoring the pink elephant in the room, and that is that American buyers are deserting them one at a time and buying Japanese...

    Many folks think that the UAW has been overpaid for simplistic work for many years, and could care less how GM treats them, IMO...
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, all I can say is that I'm a bit less enthusiastic about getting a Town & Country to replace my current union assembled Japanese minivan knowing that Nardelli is running the show at Cerberus.

    I do agree that lots (most?) people don't research cars here (or anywhere) and lots of those same people may not even know that there's a GM strike going on, much less know who the CEO of Chrysler is.

    You might enjoy Karl's Toyota blog today btw.

    Oh, $30 an hour wouldn't be enough to get me to bolt on lug nuts 8 hours a day. Makes my back hurt just thinking about it. :sick:
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    big_prizebig_prize Member Posts: 50
    CNN reports:

    "The UAW members at GM get only a nominal strike benefit of $200 a week, compared to the $27.81 an hour that the UAW-estimated average straight-time pay for a member at GM. The low level of strike benefits, less than one day's pay a week, means that the UAW has more than a year of money available to pay strikers at GM."

    link title

    With 73000 workers, at 200 per week, 52 weeks a year, that's....759 million dollars. You're telling me that the UAW has banked over $759000000 for strike pay?! How? Don't the UAW members question why they're dumping their money into this fund. They could have had it already.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Please pardon my fascination with this topic - I saw that story Big_Prize. The strike fund is indeed around a billion.

    What they didn't mention is what if all ~550,000 UAW members strike? Ford and Chrysler don't have contracts with the union now either. Are they going to get a free ride while GM gets ridden down? The strike fund would dissipate pretty fast if they all struck.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Strike funds are common in most Unions. I paid 35 cents per hour into the strike fund for 37 years and never saw a dime of it. We had one bargaining unit on strike for over a year and they used most of our reserves. We also borrowed from it for buildings etc. Better than paying a bank interest on your offices.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    If this lasts anything more than a week or two Toyota will be able to dump their Tundra rebates as that market starts hurting for vehicles...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I thought the Doraville, GA plant was supposed to be closed after GM cancelled the triplet vans. Hmm... are those still in production? If not what is the main product now rolling out of that plant?

    My parent's house is just 5 mins away from that plant so I am curious. Used to pass by that every morning on my way to school on I-285. Good times...
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    The rest of the article did point out that it was odd that they were striking since the plant would be closed, I think, in about 9 months, sometime in 2008...so, your thinking is on the money...

    Strike benefit...maybe the UAW can pay out $200 weekly for a year, but how long will the workers be able to make their mortgage and car payments and Mastercard payments, along with electric, gas and water???...I believe the strike fund will last but not the strikers...

    Hey, I'm a bankruptcy attorney...maybe I should start picketing with my services...nah, I don't feel safe in Doraville...:):):)
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,177
    >I'm a bankruptcy attorney...

    Does the ABA act like a union for attorneys? I noticed the ABA recommending OHIO do away with the death penalty with a lot of publicity this week. They had a loaded group against the death penalty study the matter and write a long report for the Governor and Attorney General. They're hoping to circumvent legislation and the will of the people by having the Gov put a hold on enforcing the law. Sort of like a union...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Breaking news....

    UAW, GM close to reaching contract deal (Yahoo)

    "Both of the people requested anonymity because the talks are private. One said negotiating teams were working out "small details," while the other said that work was almost wrapped up on an innovative plan for the company to pay the union to form a trust and take over responsibility for retiree health care."
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    anotherguyanotherguy Member Posts: 32
    "You will not see scabs slapping vehicles togeather at GM, pal. I'm sure the UAW, workers rigged the machines where only they know how to get em' to work again to prevent that from happening."

    Am I dreaming, or did you just brag about how UAW workers will sabotage company property? Anybody who did that in my factory would not just be fired, they would be in jail.

    That union members would do that is bad enough. That union members would be proud of that - brag about it - has only confirmed the worst rumors I've heard about unions. You want to pull crap like that and then you wonder why nobody wants to let the unions into their shops?
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,177
    :blush::) :shades: :surprise:

    Tentative agreement 3 am Wednesday morning.
    WSJ

    >Settlement date (all are 2007 unless noted otherwise):

    September 23, Rockylee
    September 30, 6 pm (EDT?), steve
    September 30, grbeck

    October 5, fezo
    October 7, gagrice
    October 13, Imidazol97

    Rocky,
    Please let Steve know your routing number for your bank account so the prize can be sent!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Ronald Reagan, yes broke up the air traffic controller strike and perhaps that is one reason why I disliked him so much ???? Trust me I wasn't crying the day he passed away.

    The PATCO strike was flat-out illegal. Air traffic controllers are Federal employees, barred by law from striking.

    At that time (early 1980s), controllers were the highest-paid non-management workers in the Federal government. With a little OT, a controller in one of the NYC-area airports could pull down $75K/year in 1980 dollars - more than $200K in today's money.

    I was a Fed worker at the time, making $22K/year at a job that required a 4-year college degree. (Back then, controllers only had to be HS grads.) Believe me -- neither I nor my colleagues wept for the fired controllers. We saw them as a bunch of over-paid prima donnas who gambled & lost. Even those of us who disliked Reagan thought that he was right to fire them.
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    PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Has to be ratified, but it's apparently done.

    WILL it be ratified is the question now.

    Be Careful What You Ask For
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    rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070926/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_talks

    -Rocky
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    rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    imidazol97, I left you a response in pf_flyer's link

    Be Careful What You Ask For

    -Rocky
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    rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Rocky,
    Please let Steve know your routing number for your bank account so the prize can be sent!

    ROTFLMAO !!!!! :D

    Okay Steve, you can wire the million dollar prize to my account. :P

    -Rocky
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would think it would be. I am not sure why the Big 3 did not let the Union control the health care system years ago. Our Union had its own health care plan starting in the 1970s. It was much easier to cut benefits when the members could see it going broke.
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    rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Am I dreaming, or did you just brag about how UAW workers will sabotage company property? Anybody who did that in my factory would not just be fired, they would be in jail.

    Yeah, since most of the workers own a large piece of GM, they would be sabatoging their own plant to keep scabs out. ;) As far as proving who sabatoged what good luck getting a jail sentence to stick.

    That union members would do that is bad enough. That union members would be proud of that - brag about it - has only confirmed the worst rumors I've heard about unions.

    I, nor they could give a rat about what you think. You are anti-union and would attempt to replace them with scabs and they gotta do what they can to protect themselves from a self serving greedy executives in a country that doesn't have strike laws to protect workers from scabs.

    You want to pull crap like that and then you wonder why nobody wants to let the unions into their shops?

    I don't know of one company that wants a union in their shop. If you treat your employees with respect and compensate them good their is no need for a union.

    -Rocky
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    True. If the automakers treated their workers well in the first place there would never be a UAW. Henry Ford was the worst offender. He had his own private security force to opress his workers led by a thug named Harry Bennett.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't know of one company that wants a union in their shop. If you treat your employees with respect and compensate them good their is no need for a union.

    Actually it can be beneficial to a company. Where you have a large number of people doing the same job it is easier to administer the pay scale. You don't have every Tom, Dick and Alice walking into the bosses office saying they want a raise because they put more lug nuts on than the guy next to them.

    When RCA took over the long distance in Alaska from the Air Force they were happy to have us go Union. How would you like to negotiate pay with 1000 telephone operators with all different levels of expertise?
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    rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    gagrice and lemko, what you guys are saying is true.

    gagrice, it's tough as a company dealing with employees thinking they should earn more than the next guy. Jealousy plays a big role and can hurt emmployee morale. A union takes away that jealousy feeling among the employees and in all my experiences working in unions and being brought up in a union household and family you would not find more individuals in one family that are more proud and always prided themselves on doing the best job possible for their employer than my family members and friends.

    -Rocky
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe the tendancy in a Union shop is to police each other. I know if someone was slacking off in our small group the others including the shop steward would jump on them. My experience has been that management was clueless as to who was working hard and who was not. I was thinking over my 45 year career in communications. I only had two supervisors in that many years that really knew job and could see who was and was not working. Most were losers that were promoted to management by saying the right things to the people above them. The other side of the coin is I cannot remember a year that I did not make more money than my supervisor. I was never laid off and many of my bosses were let go. I had a great Union career and a great Union retirement. I do feel for those coming up now that will not have the benefits that I had.
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    im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Yeah, since most of the workers own a large piece of GM, they would be sabatoging their own plant to keep scabs out. As far as proving who sabatoged what good luck getting a jail sentence to stick.

    It's easier than you think. An employee who sabotages an expensive machine can be criminally liable for a whole lot more than you think. At the very least they deserve to be thrown out on the street and don't deserve a job. Poor babies worrying about their scabs.. I don't have a lot of sympathy for what are about the highest paid assembly laborers in the world crying that they aren't getting enough.


    I, nor they could give a rat about what you think. You are anti-union and would attempt to replace them with scabs and they gotta do what they can to protect themselves from a self serving greedy executives in a country that doesn't have strike laws to protect workers from scabs.

    Of course you don't give a rat what anyone else thinks. If it were up to the UAW General Motors would be bled into the ground. It amazes me that you don't grasp the simple concept that GM must remain competitive to survive.

    What costs GM more per car, the steel that goes into that car or retiree benefits per car? Guess what, it isn't the Steel.

    You guys want to end up like American steelworkers? Oh yeah, they had it great! Until the steel mills all started closing down. But those poor workers! Wait, it cost 4-5 times the labor per ton of steel that foreign and non-union mills had... and then steel prices took a dive, and the union mills couldn't afford to compete, and the Unions said "Ahh to hell with you!" and then the steel mills closed down.

    Also look up a clown named Derek Robinson and what happened to British Leyland. Ahh, the Unions really showed the British Automobile industry who was boss, didn't they? 50 years ago only America made more cars than England. Nowadays the largest British-Owned automobile manufacturer might be Morgan. Ford no longer makes cars in England, Vauxhall makes the Astra there but most other Vauxhalls are made in Europe. British Leyland flat-out Died. Jaguar and Rover are foreign owned. What's the biggest truly British car maker left? Morgan?

    The choice is VERY simple. Adapt or Die. Period. The 1950s are OVER. Detroit has gone from owning 98% of the American automobile market to owning less than HALF! Every year they lose market share and that sucks, now they are finally bringing out products that can stem that tide and finally getting themselves in gear, and in order to do so they absolutely MUST shed costs.

    Or they can continue on their previous path.. more plant closings, more layoffs, smaller and smaller market share...... Is that what you really want?

    I can't see how anyone can truly be that Myopic to think that there's any other alternative.
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    im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    In a perfect world this would be the case, but as a car dealer, I have never seen a dealership go union and not have a noticeable drop in employee productivity.

    Also, I have never seen a dealership go union and the employees net the same amount of money per hour.

    Never.
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    anotherguyanotherguy Member Posts: 32
    "Yeah, since most of the workers own a large piece of GM, they would be sabatoging their own plant to keep scabs out. As far as proving who sabatoged what good luck getting a jail sentence to stick."

    That's like going to an Air Force base and asking to borrow one of "your" ICBMs for the afternoon! If the worker(s) owned 100% of GM, then yeah, go ahead and sabotage the machine. Unfortunately, other people (including me) also own GM stock, and we don't want our machines sabotaged. As for proving who sabotaged the machine, so what? Getting away with a crime isn't the same as it not being a crime.

    "I, nor they could give a rat about what you think. You are anti-union and would attempt to replace them with scabs and they gotta do what they can to protect themselves from a self serving greedy executives in a country that doesn't have strike laws to protect workers from scabs."

    How did you decide that I was anti-union? Because I said I would fire someone who sabotaged the company's equipment?

    In truth, my opinion of unions is neutral. I have several family members who are (or were) union members, but I've never had a union job. Most of the union workers I've dealt with are no better or worse than anybody else. A significant minority have been excellent. One was incompetent and lazy, but had so mastered the grievance process that he not only kept his job, but got himself promoted to a position where he was completely out of his depth. After 9 months into a training process that most people graduate from in 3 weeks he finally left for another union job.

    "I don't know of one company that wants a union in their shop. If you treat your employees with respect and compensate them good their is no need for a union."

    Yes, sometimes need unions to protect workers from abusive employers. Sometimes (like when they sabotage equipment) the union workers are themselves abusive. In those cases the company is in its rights to protect itself.
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    dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I've been around payscales/rates in union and non-union environments. Usually companies pay based on some type of position whether hourly or salary. Lots of large employers with large non union work forces. Look at Wal-mart. Do you think they negotiate hourly rates with each individual employee. Not a chance, and that would be impossible. Like many companies, they pay an hourly rate based on the job classifications and seniority. I've seen it vary from that model in management payscales where raises are sometimes partially based on performance evaluation.

    Only environment where I've seen where pay was negotiated individually has been in small business's and man what a mess that can create.
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