United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

m1miata

Not sure you are following this line of thought here. While it is true that you can leverage a large following of workers against a company to receive more in wages, it is ALL GONE if the customer decides to not buy the product or can not afford the product. All this does is exaggerates a problem if company pays more than they can afford to, then the product is cheapened in some way, or is not as new, as in development lags, so in reality it literally kills off a company in short order. GM may very well have had extra cash to blow on wages, but that was long-long ago. If they accepted less of a cut from the UAW, trust me, they do have a plan B, and C. I would be the first to say, hey great give everyone a bonus and increase the wages, if it all made sense for a company which has debt, obligations of all sorts, no doubt, possible recession in the works, cost of retooling to keep up with the other brands, people getting paid not to work, retiree benefits and such. Why not stabilize, improve, and build a better company, then reap the rewards? I think other plans, be it B or a C plan could look ugly for the workers. Just a thought. L

rockylee

You are correct in saying they are a lost brand looking for a new audience. The quirky lovers don't like this cream of Saabs, but they were only a small following and it's hard to have a buisness and sell just a few. The traditionalist still think Saab's are quirky so it's going to take time for people to warm up to them.

-Rocky

m1miata

I think people may be looking for more SAAB in their SAAB. Just a thought.

As for made in Mexico, I see no problem. GM is a Global Manufacturer, as in General Motors -- Global Manufacturer, as is all others which will survive. See you have to focus on Customer First, which means GM has to build some in Mexico, which saves the company , which all trickles down to saving your job here as well. No profits - no GM = no paycheck.
L

rockylee

Well why do you think the UAW, is bringing a crappy contract back to it's membership. They know that GM, is in desperate need of relief. I like I said before feel it starts at the top. The wealthy executives only need one year to become millionaires and be set for life. A UAW, worker might work 30+ years and not be set at all with the way things are going. I understand the customer concept. I would like for my government to tighten it's belt on the whole subject of currency, trade, issues. That would help both GM & UAW out.

-rockylee

rockylee

Well with all these union give backs GM, should have a lot easier time making a profit in U.S.

-Rocky

dino001

But unions, if they want to stay at least partially relevant, need to be ready to change those lines on the fly, be ready to accept swift reassignments, retooling, etc. No more "We were promised we'll be producing Cobalt for next 20 years - now they're changing that line again - lets strike".

Ability of GM to turn on a dime and change production, especially if model is not performing well, is critical. It has to be customer-demand run business, not one determined by production capacity. Today's big hit may be tomorrow's money loser - just ask DCX about their 300 or Ford about Explorer.

So far all I hear is all sorts of demands for "guarantees", especially for productions - not exactly customer-oriented approach.. In today's world nothing is guaranteed - if GM is not guaranteed their Sludgmobile XLS and Wondermachine LTZ will be sold in certain quantities and at price level that is profitable, how can unions be guaranteed those models will be manufactured? It could be a good faith estimate, but not a guarantee. As long as rigid production capacity "guarantees" remain in place and no real changes made to lines themselves, GM cars will remain rental darlings and multithousand cash rebates.

bumpy

Saabs built in Michigan? My first thought is to say you're nuts, but Buicks are built in China now (and the way things are going, that's where they'll all be built before long) so why not?

marsha7

Those union givebacks, as you call them, may not make GM profitable if all the other things you were proudly gloating about come true, like sabotaging the plants, or as I have previously mentioned, sabotaging the products out of spite (aka, cutting off your nose to spite your face)...

Knowing how union "brethren" stick together, I wonder hoe many Fords and Dodges have been sabotaged in the anticipation that GM/UAW would not settle???...considering your gloating, I would be quite hesitatnt about purchasing any Big 3 product right now, and you seemed quite knowledgeable concerning what the line workers would do...

Going back to a previous post by rocky, sadly, we have not yet been able to outlaw collective bargaining (working on it, though...:):):)...), but if workers have the right to collective bargain, then managment retains the right to fire them at will, IMO...so, the workers take the risk of losing their jobs and mgmt takes the risk of running a plant with inexperienced workers...seems an equitable risk to me...

im_brentwood

Yes, they might only have labor costs that are 40% higher instead of 45% higher than their competitors now.

The UAW is still sitting very high on the hog. There's a reason that no foreign manufacturer has built a plant in a state that wasn't "right to work".

marsha7

I agree...in right to work states, bad workers have no grievance process, and are fired immediately, which is the way the world should work, not taking two year's worth of grievance appeals to remove a drunk worker from the line, while he spends two years contributing to the making of shoddy product...

One day, when the unions are gone, someone will remind them that it isn't about them, it is about us, the customers, who really decide if they remain employed, simply by buying their product or someone else's...their benefits, pensions, paychecks still come from the customer, and, in a perverted sense, a well run company should care more about its customers than its employees, because there will be no employees if there are no customers for your product or service...

Some call that cruel, I call it the open market...getting rid of bad employees should be a priority even for the UAW, as it would help everybody if the product was made better, so if all they do is "protect" the job of a bad worker (in the short run) they really hurt the good ones in the long run...

That lesson is slowly being impressed upon them, each time a plant closes or is relocated elsewhere...how long before the enlightenment really occurs is anyone's guess...

gagrice

You seem to gloss over the Federal laws that protect workers from unfair labor practices. Collective bargaining is one of those laws. A right to work state does not have the ability to circumvent those labor laws. It just says you do not have to join the Union. Making it difficult to get enough members to make it worth the effort. In my experience most managers were too stupid to know if someone was goofing off or not. In 45 years working for 3 different companies, I never saw a manager build a proper case against a poor performing employee. In fact most of the loser employees were close to the managers tail end and kept their jobs by means other than good performance. I think you have an unfair opinion of most of the workers in the USA. Most of the time they carry a lot of poor performing management.

im_brentwood

I disagree.

I've seen my Grandfather's company deal with the Unions... and when my father was the president of a large prepress company in NY City he had to deal with it as well.

They catch a guy smoking pot on the job.. union gets him his job back., catch a guy sleeping on the job, union gets him his job back.

You name it, I've seen it.

PF_Flyer

The UAW might want to flip back a few pages in the history book...

Deja Vu?

I may want to revise my guess on ratification %

imidazol97

>but if workers have the right to collective bargain, then managment retains the right to fire them at will

These two parts of the sentence contradict each other.

Are you trying to say you don't like unions? Is there a deep-seated reason for your dislike? Maybe Dr. Phil...

imidazol97

> I think you have an unfair opinion of most of the workers in the USA. Most of the time they carry a lot of poor performing management.

That's an especially true statement. I've seen both sides. I have watched here as the gluttons in management gourge on the company money, especially being greedy compared to the always righteous Japanese _image_ Americans like to throw up--true or not, and the poor workers and development of new products are the ones losing money.

I've documented as a part of my job violations of state law and turned those over to other management types as required by state law and they were not handled at all. Management often doesn't follow through with whatever is required to dismiss an ill-acting employee. :shades:

As for polarizing the two sides without the unions through the decades American workers would look a lot more like third world countries' workers than they already do. No wonder so many people choose to live off the public dole in the various money fountains the legislators, the majority of whom have law degrees, have deemed to buy votes with through the decades. Image how productive this country would be if people weren't paid for doing nothing but claiming social subsidy payments, sometimes under false pretenses or multiple names. :sick:

I suspect the Browns football game in Cleveland wouldn't have to pay people from Dayton (and Cincinnati)ballpark concessions to ride their bus to Cleveland to work the concession stands in Cleveland for the day; they probably would have enough people willing to work at the above minimum pay in Cleveland. Does anyone else see a problem with the antiunion venom and upper managements' excessive pay scales and parachutes and even the arrogance in our legislative bodies through the decades and currently being tied to the hatred against the UAW shown here?

Jimmy Hoffa is gone. :mad:

lemko

Heck, just clone me a couple million times and GM, or at least the Cadillac and Buick Divisions will be fine.

rockylee

like sabotaging the plants, or as I have previously mentioned, sabotaging the products out of spite (aka, cutting off your nose to spite your face)..

If they sabatoged anything it would not be the product but rather the machines that make the product to prevent scabs from being able to figure out how to get the machinery running.

Knowing how union "brethren" stick together, I wonder hoe many Fords and Dodges have been sabotaged in the anticipation that GM/UAW would not settle???...considering your gloating, I would be quite hesitatnt about purchasing any Big 3 product right now, and you seemed quite knowledgeable concerning what the line workers would do...

You wouldn't buy a Big 3 vehicle because of that but rather your anti-union liberatarian political position. The UAW, workers as I said did not sabatoge the product. If they did anything they made sure the machinery didn't work. I'm not gloating about this at all because nobody really wins in a strike. However with our anti-union labor laws on the books the union workers got to do somethingto protect themselves from scabs.

Going back to a previous post by rocky, sadly, we have not yet been able to outlaw collective bargaining (working on it, though......), but if workers have the right to collective bargain, then managment retains the right to fire them at will, IMO...so, the workers take the risk of losing their jobs and mgmt takes the risk of running a plant with inexperienced workers...seems an equitable risk to me...

Well hopefully we are able to get a law passed in the next administration that makes it illegal to cross a picket line and easier to organize.

-Rocky

rockylee

We could build em' in Minnesota, and they would still be built by scandinavians. :P

-Rocky

rockylee

The UAW, will not resist production changes as longas new models are coming to the plant to replace the slow selling previous model being built there.

-Rocky

rockylee

Well it has been said the VEBA, agreement would cut that cost disadvantage gap in half. I believe that "gap" has been and still is very over inflated especially considering that the UAW plants are the most efficient at building products.

-rockylee

rockylee

Your dreaming if you think unions will totally dry up. I and many others personally see them making a come back because of people with your mentality that want to be able to use a worker up and then discard he/she in a trash bin at will with no recourse. This will lead to socialism, because eventually the working people are going to have enough and revolt.

-rockylee

rockylee

I've seen the same thing with my father's boss. Burt, would grab a female on the butt, management would give him his job back. Well after the fourth time they finally had to fire him. He worked at two other company's and got fired from each of them for it.

-rockylee

marsha7

I am aware of Fed labor laws, my posts reflected what I WISH it was...i.e. since workers have the right to collective bargain, employers, IMO, SHOULD have the right to simply fire them and sstart over with new employees...

I also agree with brentwood's summary of the true purpose of a union, to protect the worthless, useless and shiftless...

If this was the 1940s, I would truly agree that unions grew out of the actual abuse of workers...but the world has changed, and unions are causing damage to business...

GM may have agreed to this, but if market share plummets, can you spell either BREACH or BANKRUPTCY???...because that is what they will be forced into...

Ford has mortgaged everything, 23 billion, I believe, to try and bring itself back...labor problems will only guarantee their demise...

Chrysler is now private, IIRC, so the new owners do NOT have to deal with the stockholders, they can ride it out as long as they can try...

Unions have their heads in the sand, which is why so many industries are moving overseas...

And the beat goes on...

marsha7

you posted while I was typing...sexual harassment is intolerable to me, so I can never side with mgmt if they gave him his job back...he should have been fired (if proven) and sent out to picket with the line folks...some sarcasm, there...

rockylee

The problem is the average folks in this country have their head in the sand. They are more worried about who's going to win American Idol, than what law a crooked politician is trying to pass on behalf of the company. You get what you want by the blind, as they aren't able to see what's going on.

Until we elect people who are going to protect this country from 3rd world wages and trade we will keep going in the crapper. :sick:

-Rocky

imidazol97

> would truly agree that unions grew out of the actual abuse of workers...but the world has changed, and unions are causing damage to business...

Are management people "causing damage to business"?

>so many industries are moving overseas...

Industries are moving overseas because management sees a way to make even more profit for themselves with $.50 per day workers. How did this work with the $200 Nikes? Who Knows how much they saved by paying $.50 day to make $250 special #23 shoes?

im_brentwood

I think that if it required deep concessions from the UAW to bail Ford out, the UAW would tell them to go and pound sand.

IMO, a big strike from the UAW would kill Ford as an independent company. And swines like Gettelfinger know this and I am sure he's dying to take advantage of it.

ROcky, whoever said that UAW plants are the most efficient? They are full of childish employees "We'll sabotage machines so no scabs can get through while we have our routine temper tantrum". You do realize that if such a thing were to happen that a lot of people WOULD lose their jobs (Rightfully so!) and that destruction of company property IS a criminal offense and easy enough to catch, right?

If some self-righteous goon ruins a coffeemaker, GM probably isn't going to go nuts. But if the same goon ruins or disables a multi-million dollar robot, you can bet that their insurance company is going to require an investigation before they just go ahead and write a check for said equipment.

THat is, of course, unless you live in a fantasyland where it's still 1958.

Efficiency? Detroit has only approached world standard levels of efficiency by fighting the UAW tooth and nail all the way. At one point Detroit was using almost TWICE as much labor per car as the Japanese were, and producing an inferior product qualitywise.

I love my 06 STS but one of the first things I did was rip the UAW label off of it.

rockylee

Those shoes were made with young chinese kids chained to a machine. But if it saves a buck for the pseudo-capitalist liberatarian than by golly put it in production. :sick:

I can always apologize after I'm dead and asked the tough questions.

-Rocky

grbeck

rockylee: Well the big difference is the individual is counting on his superiors to compensate him. The union negotiates using the power of a large group of employees to get what they want.

The union is still counting on management to compensate workers. The difference is that the union uses a united front to get management to agree to higher pay for workers than one worker could through his or her own efforts. But the ultimate source of the money is the same.

And if there is no money, the workers are out of luck, union or no union.

grbeck

im_brentwood: ROcky, whoever said that UAW plants are the most efficient?

That comparison isn't quite accurate.

The efficient union plants tend to be set up to produce one vehicle, or very closely related vehicles.

GM's Oshawa plant in Canada is regularly named one of top plants for efficiency, but it has produced the W-body platform (Impala, if I recall correctly) for years. Same for Ford's recently closed Atlanta plant, which produced the Taurus platform for years. The Big Three plants still rely on the Model T paradigm (produce lots of the same model in large numbers as fast as possible).

The transplant operations are more flexible. For example, a Honda factory may produce the Civic, CR-V and Element, and can switch production among those models, depending on demand. That may not look as efficient on paper, but it improves flexibility and profitability in the long run.

rockylee

ROcky, whoever said that UAW plants are the most efficient?

There are sites proving that.

They are full of childish employees "We'll sabotage machines so no scabs can get through while we have our routine temper tantrum". You do realize that if such a thing were to happen that a lot of people WOULD lose their jobs (Rightfully so!) and that destruction of company property IS a criminal offense and easy enough to catch, right?

As I said good luck proving who did what ? It is childish to believe otherwise.

If some self-righteous goon ruins a coffeemaker, GM probably isn't going to go nuts. But if the same goon ruins or disables a multi-million dollar robot, you can bet that their insurance company is going to require an investigation before they just go ahead and write a check for said equipment.

He didn't ruin it. He temporarily disabled it. Unless you are one of the scabs that wants his job what do you care ????

THat is, of course, unless you live in a fantasyland where it's still 1958.

No if it was 1958, their would be baseball bats for picket signs to club any scab.

Efficiency? Detroit has only approached world standard levels of efficiency by fighting the UAW tooth and nail all the way.

A union shop out works a non-union shop 3-2 in this country.
A union shop vs. A Toyota, plant in Japan, is 3 to 1

At one point Detroit was using almost TWICE as much labor per car as the Japanese were, and producing an inferior product qualitywise.

Yes because back in the day GM, was happy making $40 million dollars per plant and everyone ate steak and was happy. Sure back then UAW, workers thought quality was at a all-time low but upper management didn't care about engineering good cars until their backs were against the wall in the 90's. You can thank executives like Roger Smith, for signing off on shoddy engineered cars. :mad:

I love my 06 STS but one of the first things I did was rip the UAW label off of it.

Well I'm glad to learn you like and drive American Made, at least. I do think it is a lil' childish to rip the sticker off but I can forgive you as it is at least a american car. :shades:

-rockylee

lemko

Here is yet another manufacturer running away to China:

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20070928_ap_devilb- isshealthcareplansoutsourcing80jobs.html

Disgusting!

lemko

Heck, I'd proudly have the UAW label as a chrome emblem on my ride. Still very happy with my three UAW-assembled GM cars!

fezo

And they said at least health care was something they couldn't outsource....

bumpy

No if it was 1958, their would be baseball bats for picket signs to club any scab.

Jeebus. :sick: We might as well call it the United Auto Mafia.

Sure back then UAW, workers thought quality was at a all-time low but upper management didn't care about engineering good cars until their backs were against the wall in the 90's.

True as far as it goes, but the UAW didn't care about slapping together good cars either. Labor and management were too busy slipping knives between each other's ribs to realize the public had divorced them both.

gagrice

We now have a Democratic Congress. Have you seen any Pro Union legislation? In fact the minimum wage legislation was a sham. It seems that Speaker Pelosi wanted to protect a couple companies that were big contributors by exempting them from the law. Nothing done for labor by the Dems. They are all talk and no action. So who do you think will do anything for Labor?

In truth there has to be someone willing to manufacture something in this country that people want to buy. If the laws are so regressive that a profit cannot be made, no one will want to take the risk. It is much easier to let a contract to someone in China or India to build your widget and all you have to do is market the product.

Not only labor but many states make it less than worthwhile to manufacture anything in this country. The wave of the future in automobiles will probably be electric. I don't think you could get an environmental go ahead to manufacture batteries or electric motors in this country. Manufacturing is being squeezed out on several fronts.

rockylee

Well when people start dieing then maybe something will be done. It always seems like afew people gotta drop dead before somebody goes Oops !!!! :confuse:

-Rocky

stever

Chrysler is now private, IIRC, so the new owners do NOT have to deal with the stockholders

Chrysler LLC doesn't have to deal with stockholders of a publicly traded concern, but Cerberus isn't one guy with tons of money. It's a private investment group made up of investor's assets ($16 billion in 2005), so there a lots of guys with lots of money who are used to being movers and shakers who now have an ownership interest in the fund. They may be a lot tougher on management than public shareholders, CALPERs or the UAW ever would be.

In the news, UAW dissidents argue against ratifying GM deal (Reuters)

"Danger VEBA - Vandalizing Employee Benefits Again."

rockylee

Yeah I always thought a 100% union american made vehicle would sell pretty well still.

-Rocky

rockylee

fezo, just wait your prescriptions will come from China, in the near future.

It's all about who can do it the cheapest !!!!! :sick:

-rockylee

dieselone

The article brought part of the cause. Medicare!!! Trust me, you'll see more of this if we get a national healthcare program. Medicare D is already killing small Pharmacies (they are selling out to larger chains left and right because they can't afford to operate under the plan). Reduced reimbursement rates and to long to pay. Just wait until the government gets their hands on the rest of the healthcare industry. I wonder how many more jobs it will cost? Oh, I guess that's ok since they are not UAW jobs so who cares!

im_brentwood

There are sites proving that.

OK, then please list them.

He didn't ruin it. He temporarily disabled it. Unless you are one of the scabs that wants his job what do you care ????
It's still sabotage/damage, still highly illegal. Perhaps if some of the most highly compensated assembley workers on the planet didn't go on strike at the drop of the hat then there would be no need for replacement workers. That being said, GM did not have to resort to that. And if the average worker should be upset at anyone, it's the UAW themselves. The strike put 73,000 workers out of work for how many days? How much money did the workers lose by not working?

And let's face it, MAYBE 10% of them were on the picket lines, I'll bet that most of them were at home and pissed off because a 3rd party kept them from making money.

A union shop out works a non-union shop 3-2 in this country.
A union shop vs. A Toyota, plant in Japan, is 3 to 1

Prove it. This I want to see.

Yes because back in the day GM, was happy making $40 million dollars per plant and everyone ate steak and was happy. Sure back then UAW, workers thought quality was at a all-time low but upper management didn't care about engineering good cars until their backs were against the wall in the 90's. You can thank executives like Roger Smith, for signing off on shoddy engineered cars

Yes, and there was NO FOREIGN COMPETITION. Let me clue you in, and I will try and make it simple...

Market Conditions change. You can either adapt to changing market conditions or you can become a Dinosaur.

Well I'm glad to learn you like and drive American Made, at least. I do think it is a lil' childish to rip the sticker off but I can forgive you as it is at least a american car

It's an excellent car but not up to the standards of a BMW, Audi or Mercedes. Hopefully they will get there.

I took the UAW sticker off for many reasons, one of which is that I am not a socialist.

im_brentwood

Exactly!

I love hearing about how Hillary wants national healthcare.. and it amazes me even further when people think that it's going to be free!

National healthcare is neither free nor efficient.

rockylee

Jeebus. We might as well call it the United Auto Mafia.

LOL.....I guess if you weren't a scab, you would not have anything to worry about would ya ?

True as far as it goes, but the UAW didn't care about slapping together good cars either. Labor and management were too busy slipping knives between each other's ribs to realize the public had divorced them both.

Well it's been said many times on here and I'll say it again :confuse: the UAW, was never in charge of engineering or signing off on product for production. It wasn't until recently that the UAW, said they are going to have more control over what their members build so they don't take the rap for shoddy made products.

-Rocky

rockylee

I actually do not like Pelosi. Her and the other left coast liberal Boxer, are two peas in a pod. They both are worth less. :mad:

So who do you think will do anything for Labor?

Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, and probably Obama.

Hillary, has support but I don't believe she is quite as pro-labor as the ones above especially the first two.

In truth there has to be someone willing to manufacture something in this country that people want to buy. If the laws are so regressive that a profit cannot be made, no one will want to take the risk. It is much easier to let a contract to someone in China or India to build your widget and all you have to do is market the product.

Agree gagrice, as I said until we do something about our trade laws the same issues will apply.

Not only labor but many states make it less than worthwhile to manufacture anything in this country. The wave of the future in automobiles will probably be electric. I don't think you could get an environmental go ahead to manufacture batteries or electric motors in this country. Manufacturing is being squeezed out on several fronts.

You are probably correct but I'm trying to remain optomistic, even though I'm negative on here.

-Rocky

imidazol97

>Democratic Congress. Have you seen any Pro Union legislation? In fact the minimum wage legislation was a sham. It seems that Speaker Pelosi

They are too busy trying to do anything that would reflect on the current president rather than doing something to benefit the country. Pelosi did hold up the one child she could find who has parents who make more than the SCHIP program and to justify raising the income level. Maybe eventually they'll get to my level and pay for my health insurance--after all, someone else should pay for it, not me.

I wish I could rescind some of my proDem votes last year. They haven't done anything productive, other than Attorney General Dann in Ohio who is suing to close unproductive charter schools.

Ohio is now courting a Russian steel maker. Of course one of the current ones killed the union by baiting them to strike so they could replace the workers with scabs.

imidazol97

>prescriptions will come from China,

Naaah. The drug maker companies have too muh clout with our crooked politicians in DC

rockylee

I know that Shotwell fellar. He's a nice guy and I'm glad he's looking out for the future workers. It's a painful decision to have to make. Especially since all the details haven't been explained.

-Rocky

british_rover

I don't think a pure single payer system, something similar to what the UK has, could work in the US. A system like Germany or Australia where there is more of a mix of public and private might work for some people in the US.

I don't see anyone system working in the US because it would be much too complicated.

rockylee

Your propoganda, has gotten so crazy I'm not going to bother commenting. :confuse:

-Rocky