the UAW, was never in charge of engineering or signing off on product for production
Poorly-designed parts can be mitigated by good assembly practices or exacerbated by poor assembly practices, and more often than not the UAW membership opted for the latter. To my knowledge, the UAW has never called a strike to protest the design and quality of parts provided by engineering and management. The UAW has called innumerable strikes to protest the paucity of their remuneration. I think that makes clear where the union's priorities lie.
Back in the 1950s the basic arrangement arrived at between the GM and the UAW was that in exchange for having absolutely no say in how the company was operated the workers would receive an unusually generous pay and benefits package. Especially the benefits. This was the bargain GM struck. It agreed to pay huge amounts in order to not have to listen to its workers or include them in the business. The UAW we have is the UAW GM asked for, one interested solely in pay and benefits.
I'm really quite surprised the talk hasn't turned to whether this settlement is actually a good idea for the UAW given the past experience with a VEBA at Caterpillar. FAR more GM retirees than at Caterpillar and their VEBA taps out after 6 years?
I hope this all works out, but wild predictions of retirees being safe for 80 years aside, if the VEBA does run dry as it did at Caterpillar, that's going to be hard to blame on the evil corporation since the UAW is going to be in charge of administration of the VEBA.
I still think the rank and file will wind up approving it because they're being told it's a good thing, but the longer it takes to get it voted on, the closer it's going to be IMHO.
Well actually Saab's being made here in the U.S. was and still is being considered. Actually the Spring Hill Tennesee plant was one of the prospects. So I wouldn't call that neccessary a dream.
More like a nightmare. If SAAB's are made in America from Opel and Chevy designs,then what is SAAB really? Why would ANY discerning auto buyer spend money on one? Luxury car buyers aren't just buying steel. They are buying heritage,cachet,philosophy. SAAB has lost ALL of that.
rockylee: So as you've seen they have given up that right to challenge management on engineering to get some good pay and benefits.
Are you talking about engineering the actual vehicle, or production engineering (i.e., the process by which the vehicle is assembled)?
I can see where the UAW would have expertise with the latter. If anything, the companies have been foolish NOT to seek UAW input in this area.
If you are talking about engineering the vehicle (ohc versus ohv; what type of suspension design to use, etc.)...I don't see where UAW members would have any particular expertise in this area.
And I certainly don't see where the UAW would have any expertise in long-range forecasting (what is likely to be popular in the years ahead), marketing, styling or product planning.
"Born from jets" is the stupidest slogan I've ever heard. What's even more stupid is Saab actually puts the ignition on the center console to mimic the "jet feel". Maybe what Saab should do is fire the whole marketing team and whoever designed and approved the ignition location and put all the money into making a better interior.
It's terrible that a pseudo-luxury brand has worse interior than say Honda Accord.
If you move the ignition location in a SAAB the SAAB nuts will come to your house to draw and quarter you.
Real SAABs have had the ignition down in the center console forever. It is just like how real Porsches have the ignition on the left side of the steering wheel.
Five points if you can tell me why that is the case.
Five points if you can tell me why that is the case.
It's dated back to the Le Mans Series. Because with the ignition on the left side the drive can start the car and shift into first gear at almost the same time which serves the purpose of saving time during the race.
Now give me my 5 points. :P
As for Saab, is it really that the ignition was always on the center console? Why's that? Does it serve any purpose? I actually thought this is the new thing that Saab picked it up in recent years like late 90s.
Oh, Saab has had the ignition on the floor forever. Way back when I had one I loved that. Of course back then they didn't say they were "born from jets" even though they were making those at the time, too.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The oldest Saabs I have ever worked on from the early 80s had it in the center console. I would have to ask Shifty how far back it goes as I don't have any experience on the truly early 2 cycle SAABS.
Here is something cool from the early years - '72 The Sonett. Now that is one cool looking sports car, from the Swedish plane builder. SOME PICS and the engine is a V4 Ford ??? Look at THIS Interesting. Saab had so much strange product, nowadays in comparison, it is just boring. They took all the fun out of it.
"UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said during a press conference after the meeting with local leaders in Detroit that he hopes to conclude rank-and-file voting on the terms of the deal by Oct. 10. He said the overwhelming show of support from local leaders "gives us a pretty good indication" that the vote will be accepted nationwide."
steve host: good clarification...I did not mean to impky that Cerberus was one person, but I am sure that the group will make decisions faster than the average corporate committee...
rocky: you, for once ( ) got it right...yes, there have been severe mgmt screwups that also disgust me, and THEY should be thrown out...didn't GM have to pay a $billion to cancel a contract with Fiat???...if true, who was the lawyer that let them sign that one???
"Born from jets" is a slogan that doesn't address anything of interest to customers, I'd say, and ignition placement is simply Saab custom, accepted by fans, ridiculed by others. Saab's challenge has always been making the step from cult favorite to transportation.
But I'd say Saab interiors are ergonomically terrific, functionally attractive and durable. To me, those are much better qualities than some of the high-design interiors I'm seeing on the new cars.
I think Saabs would lose some of their appeal if they stopped building them in Sweden and Bavaria.
hope this all works out, but wild predictions of retirees being safe for 80 years aside, if the VEBA does run dry as it did at Caterpillar, that's going to be hard to blame on the evil corporation since the UAW is going to be in charge of administration of the VEBA.
Excellent point, but I suspect the employees voting will be most concerned with whether or not the VEBA will last until they head for the last roundup, which will be much less than 80 years from now. After that, it's someone else's problem ... like Social Security and Medicare.
I think that no matter what assurances "leaders" may offer at this time, the hard fact is that retirees in the future are going to be much more responsible for their own retirement than current retirees and particularly past retirees.
Now wait until private sector employees without guaranteed pensions and medical care begin to figure out that their taxes are paying for the guaranteed pensions and medical care of public employees:-o
I've tired of the repeated stereotypes or characterizations that AREN'T true across the board, but tend to just smear the whole group of American cars. Frankly the BMW I was in last summer rode poorly and had terribly uncomfortable seats.
Which BMW was it? BMW has gotten on this kick of putting runflats on all their cars which in some cases has caused very poor handling. They claim to have redone the suspension on the newer BMWs to mitigate the poor performance of the runflats.
I agree that some of the BMWs with runflats ride very rough without offering spectacular handling. Take the runflats off and boom amazing car again with great handling and a more compliant ride.
Out of curiosity, what do the GM workers drive to work in each day? Is it a car made by the brand of which they assemble? What happens if they drive say a Japan make to work?
How long it this new contract for? Will Ford and Chrysler be able or willing to match this contract, or has GM set them up for failure, one way or another? What happens if one of the other big three says fine, we throw in the towel, go for bankruptcy, get new financing out of bankruptcy and start making cars for less money than GM? Those stock holders of the original Kmart stock ended up with a nice piece of wallpaper. I would imagine however the current Kmart/Sears to be of temporary status on the retail scene. But who knows, perhaps they do survive.
You need something for French and Italian automakers.
And soon Chinese. I had a red '61 MGA roadster once. There should be a law against buying a brand unless the vehicle is produced in the country of origin. A Chinese MG? The horror. The horror.
I'd have no problem, though, if they wanted to produce DeSotos or Edsels.
I'm talking about common sense stuff. Like the UAW, workers didn't know the butt ugly Aztek, was going to be a flop ???? Hell even my GM, relatives were grumbling with discust when that puppy came out. :surprise:
I do think GM, management should take around photo concepts and ask everyones opinion. I think Ford, was doing this for a while last year or the year before. Hell it's more likely a UAW, worker is going to buy your average GM, product than some guy in GM, management as they usually only drive Caddy's and Buicks finest. Not to disregard theiropinion but I think if GM, really wants to know how it's going to sell they could use imput from real consumers like the workers and still keep a lid on what they are making until they are ready to show it off at the autoshow. This saves time and money and is good for employee morale as they get to be involved and their opinion is important.
Out of curiosity, what do the GM workers drive to work in each day? Is it a car made by the brand of which they assemble? What happens if they drive say a Japan make to work?
98% of em' drive GM cars. The other 2 point something percent drive a Ford or Chrysler. Less than 1% drive something else but others claim to have seen UAW, workers driving foreign cars. I have not seen it with my own eyes but if they did it would be properly keyed as it should be. Trust me a few disgruntled workers in the past attempted this feat and they didn't like the results. Do you think management did anything to investigate ? Hell No !!!! As dad, said they probably participated when nobody was looking !!!!
How long it this new contract for?
4 years.
Will Ford and Chrysler be able or willing to match this contract, or has GM set them up for failure, one way or another?
Actually it is said that Ford, will benefit more than GM, from this type of contract. Chrysler, has a new owner and money to spend and will get much needed relief as well.
What happens if one of the other big three says fine, we throw in the towel, go for bankruptcy, get new financing out of bankruptcy and start making cars for less money than GM?
I suppose it's possible as anything is. I don't see that scenario happening in the next 4 years at least.
Those stock holders of the original Kmart stock ended up with a nice piece of wallpaper. I would imagine however the current Kmart/Sears to be of temporary status on the retail scene. But who knows, perhaps they do survive.
I think Kmart/Sears, will survive just like each of the big 3. Remember Ford, has ARM and Chrysler has Jim Press. Both have proven track records of success.
"LOL.....I guess if you weren't a scab, you would not have anything to worry about would ya ?"
How is "I wouldn't have hit you with a baseball bat if you hadn't crossed our picket line" different from "I wouldn't have hit you with a baseball bat if you had just given me your wallet"? Both are assault with a deadly weapon because the other person wouldn't comply with a demand that you had no legal right to make. You seem to think that certain crimes (assault and sabotage at a minimum) suddenly become legal if you have a union card.
I have not seen it with my own eyes but if they did it would be properly keyed as it should be.
Ahh, the union way, see something you don't like, then resolve it by assault/battery/vandalism. Hmm, kind of like how my kids try to resolve issues. When they don't get their way, they kick, scream, and throw tantrums. But they are 9 & 5. NOT 50!!
Anyway, I've known a few people that were UAW memebers and I've never seen them drive anything but the vehicles of the companies they worked for. Quite frankly that is how it should be. It makes since to support you employer.
I grew up around the steel mills in NW Indiana. In the early 80's you wouldn't see anyone associated with the steel mills drive a foreign car, but that changed by the 90's. I knew several mill workers that drove their domestic vehicle to work and the wife would drive a Toy/Honda. I lived mainly around those who were in management/purchasing/engineering, but even the union members own foreign cars today.
My father-in-law worked as a iron worker in the mills for 30+ years, my MIL drives a Camry. Same with the retired teamster across the street from him, he has a camry too.
drive GM and Ford cars, but they receive substantial discounts to do so (e.g. Ford's "A Plan.)" They pay THOUSANDS of dollars less than you or I would pay to buy the same car. In other words, you and I pay THOUSANDS of dollars more.
Why the discount? Could it be that the union workers who demand "American Car" loyalty from all us aren't really that loyal themselves, unless they get a "special" price? Don't they want to buy their cars at full price to support their union brothers? Isn't the quality of the vehicles built by union labor enough of an incentive?
When I was a kid, I remember seeing a sign in the parking lot of the local GM plant. It read, "If you drive a foreign car, don't park it here." Now THERE'S an incentive to buy GM!
But what exactly is a foreign car? The Ford Focus is built in Mexico. The Honda Civic is built in the U.S. So I must be doing my country a favor by driving a Honda.
Here's another thought: GM pays its average worker $80/hour in salary and benefits. Toyota pays $50/hour. So how does Toyota build higher quality cars than GM, and outsell GM, too?
The silly nitpicking on what happens in strikes and pontificating about how this is wrong from an intellectual point of view is boring.
As for the cars people drive, I suspect if I go to the Honda plants a few miles north and cruise by their parking lots, I'll see Hondas of various models from Civic to Acura models. I know what I see round Smyrna's Nissan plant--guess. I also note that there's a lot of junker Nissan (Datsun) product that have been bought so people have the right brand transportation to work to meet what the other (nonunion) workers expect. At home they have probably their Chevy/Ford pickup and Tahoe and Escalade along with their Cavalier and Focuses. I suspect the market is good for beater Nissans in the area. That is what I would do if I didn't want to buy a new car to have the right vehicle so I don't get it keyed by the _nonunion_ people in the lot.
Now someone needs to tells us the mantra that Focuses are made in some other North American area to finish off my post and we'll have come full circle yet another boring time. At least it's not made in Japan by union labor there.
I wonder how many people pontificating about union labor HERE are driving their foreign car made by UNION labor THERE. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
I wonder how many people pontificating about union labor HERE are driving their foreign car made by UNION labor THERE. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
I don't know, was my Mexican made Suburban built with union labor?
As for the tantrums, I was referring to how the 5 & 9 year old go about their disagreements with each other. They act like the kids they are. Which I think anymore is like many adults.
98% of em' drive GM cars. The other 2 point something percent drive a Ford or Chrysler. Less than 1% drive something else but others claim to have seen UAW, workers driving foreign cars. I have not seen it with my own eyes but if they did it would be properly keyed as it should be.
Most employees believe in and are loyal to the company they work for. Too bad though that GM, Ford and Chrysler workers had not started buying and driving Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans back in the early 80's along with their domestic brands. They would have discovered what many Americans did about Japanese brand quality. They would have then been a very strong voice to their management asking for improvements in design, engineering, materials and asssembly processes.
"In a move designed to rally support for Ford's Way Forward restructuring plan announced by company officials on Monday, Dearborn Truck Plant Manager Rob Webber announced that starting next week, only Ford vehicles will be permitted in the parking lot at the plant.
Non-Ford vehicles may still park in employee lots, albeit across the street."
That blog isn't about getting skinny, but the irony is that all the FoMoCo employees who drive Hondas are probably healthier since they get more exercise walking further to the plant doors.
So this is the year 2007, and nothing has changed within the UAW. OK, it is what it is.
Anyone think GM accepted a higher wage and benefit scale than Ford and Chrysler will be able to offer in hopes of knocking off one or both of the competition? Is this the same old game plan, and nothing has changed? OK, we relive this over one more time. I guess when it worked in the past, it appears it may work again. Only problem is that Toyota and Honda, plus all the rest, just got stronger. Oh well, not my worry. If everyone is happy so far, then all is well. The ball is still rolling and the checks keep a coming in. So far product appears to be OK, so as long as the next couple of years hold up for reliability of the cars, it will setup GM and Ford for some greater success with the new stuff to come, hopefully in a couple years, or less.
Well I hope it all works out so that the USA keeps more production here. And I do hope there is more incentives from our government for companies to manufacturer products here in the US or A. When I was young, I use to like to watch the afternoon shows liked Industry on Parade, showcasing our mighty industries. - L
The union said assembly line workers will get economic gains totaling $13,056 over the life of the four-year contract. They will get bonuses in each year of the contract, including a $3,000 bonus when the contract is ratified, as well as cost-of-living increases.
But some workers will be making less than before.
New hires who are doing what are considered noncore functions, such as combining parts from suppliers to prepare them for the assembly line, managing parts and chemicals and driving finished vehicles, will make between $14 and $16.23 an hour, or about half the starting wage of $28.12 that assembly workers would make under the new contract. Those workers also would get a 401(k)-style retirement plan instead of a fixed pension, according to the summary.
Interesting stuff. Sounds like the ratification of the contract will be gained by allowing existing GM employees to stay on the gravy train while some of their new hire "brothers" take one for the team. Does anyone remember the key line from 1984? -- "Do it to Julia!"
Wish I could say there was some way around it. As one of the Fords said not too long ago, "We've figured out what unskilled labor is worth and it's not $65 an hour." He didn't say anything about the relative worth of Ford management.
GM, really wants to know how it's going to sell they could use imput from real consumers like the workers and still keep a lid on what they are making until they are ready to show it off at the autoshow. This saves time and money and is good for employee morale as they get to be involved and their opinion is important.
I'm amazed GM doesn't ask employees for an opinion. Are you sure that's so across the board? Employees would have some useful feedback, even if their v'points weren't completely neutral, plus they'd feel more like participants, less like humanoids. Besides, low cost and no down side (that I can see).
One of my car mags had a piece on GM's rollout of the new Corvette. Sounded like they did a lot of consumer research, including current owners who visited the plant and were treated like VIPs. (They looked like a bunch of AARPies, LOL.)
You mean GM never asks for employee feedback on product design? Hard to believe. Don't understand that one.
How about input from those currently owning another brand of car, preferably a non-domestic make, so they get an idea of what's missing?
Of course the workers on the line should have lot's of input. Suggestions may help in the assembly and enhancement of product. I would imagine there is already something in place for that to happen. As for how they like the product, such great to have input on that too, though I would be offering a lot of people from those states which buy the most cars, an opportunity to say ya or nay as to car designs / styles appeal.
As for those AARP people you mentioned going into to look over the new Corvette's, they are indeed the bulk of the sales of new Vettes. L
"Ahh, the union way, see something you don't like, then resolve it by assault/battery/vandalism."
Exactly! Rocky has no problems with union members sabotaging company equipment, assaulting non-union workers with baseball bats or vandalizing cars made by non-union workers. He also can't even see why anyone else would have a problem with it, or at least not anyone whose opinion actually matters (another union member). Then he can't understand why the average person isn't pro-union anymore.
Comments
Poorly-designed parts can be mitigated by good assembly practices or exacerbated by poor assembly practices, and more often than not the UAW membership opted for the latter. To my knowledge, the UAW has never called a strike to protest the design and quality of parts provided by engineering and management. The UAW has called innumerable strikes to protest the paucity of their remuneration. I think that makes clear where the union's priorities lie.
Back in the 1950s the basic arrangement arrived at between the GM and the UAW was that in exchange for having absolutely no say in how the company was operated the workers would receive an unusually generous pay and benefits package. Especially the benefits. This was the bargain GM struck. It agreed to pay huge amounts in order to not have to listen to its workers or include them in the business. The UAW we have is the UAW GM asked for, one interested solely in pay and benefits.
I hope this all works out, but wild predictions of retirees being safe for 80 years aside, if the VEBA does run dry as it did at Caterpillar, that's going to be hard to blame on the evil corporation since the UAW is going to be in charge of administration of the VEBA.
I still think the rank and file will wind up approving it because they're being told it's a good thing, but the longer it takes to get it voted on, the closer it's going to be IMHO.
-Rocky
Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, and probably Obama.
Not gonna happen, Rocky. More details in Presidential Primaries and Election
-Rocky
More like a nightmare.
If SAAB's are made in America from Opel and Chevy designs,then what is SAAB really?
Why would ANY discerning auto buyer spend money on one?
Luxury car buyers aren't just buying steel.
They are buying heritage,cachet,philosophy.
SAAB has lost ALL of that.
Are you talking about engineering the actual vehicle, or production engineering (i.e., the process by which the vehicle is assembled)?
I can see where the UAW would have expertise with the latter. If anything, the companies have been foolish NOT to seek UAW input in this area.
If you are talking about engineering the vehicle (ohc versus ohv; what type of suspension design to use, etc.)...I don't see where UAW members would have any particular expertise in this area.
And I certainly don't see where the UAW would have any expertise in long-range forecasting (what is likely to be popular in the years ahead), marketing, styling or product planning.
L
It's terrible that a pseudo-luxury brand has worse interior than say Honda Accord.
Real SAABs have had the ignition down in the center console forever. It is just like how real Porsches have the ignition on the left side of the steering wheel.
Five points if you can tell me why that is the case.
It's dated back to the Le Mans Series. Because with the ignition on the left side the drive can start the car and shift into first gear at almost the same time which serves the purpose of saving time during the race.
Now give me my 5 points. :P
As for Saab, is it really that the ignition was always on the center console? Why's that? Does it serve any purpose? I actually thought this is the new thing that Saab picked it up in recent years like late 90s.
That's all I asked.
SOME PICS and the engine is a V4 Ford ??? Look at THIS Interesting. Saab had so much strange product, nowadays in comparison, it is just boring.
L
Local Leaders Back Contract (WSJ)
steve host: good clarification...I did not mean to impky that Cerberus was one person, but I am sure that the group will make decisions faster than the average corporate committee...
rocky: you, for once (
But I'd say Saab interiors are ergonomically terrific, functionally attractive and durable. To me, those are much better qualities than some of the high-design interiors I'm seeing on the new cars.
I think Saabs would lose some of their appeal if they stopped building them in Sweden and Bavaria.
Excellent point, but I suspect the employees voting will be most concerned with whether or not the VEBA will last until they head for the last roundup, which will be much less than 80 years from now. After that, it's someone else's problem ... like Social Security and Medicare.
I think that no matter what assurances "leaders" may offer at this time, the hard fact is that retirees in the future are going to be much more responsible for their own retirement than current retirees and particularly past retirees.
Now wait until private sector employees without guaranteed pensions and medical care begin to figure out that their taxes are paying for the guaranteed pensions and medical care of public employees:-o
There is actually this running joke I do about how the Swedes make the Best seats, decent handling cars and lousy cup holders.
The Germans make the best handling cars, decent seats and lousy cup holders.
Japanese make Decent handling, decent seats, great cup holders.
Americans make lousy handling cars, lousy seats, and GREAT cup holders. :P
All of those are huge generalizations of course.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the UAW fought against putting them in cars :shades:
PS
A guy that eats at the same Mexican restaurant as we do, just bought a 650i convertible. That is one butt ugly car.
I agree that some of the BMWs with runflats ride very rough without offering spectacular handling. Take the runflats off and boom amazing car again with great handling and a more compliant ride.
And the BMW Z3 was a great little sports car made in USA. Just a thought.
L
How long it this new contract for? Will Ford and Chrysler be able or willing to match this contract, or has GM set them up for failure, one way or another? What happens if one of the other big three says fine, we throw in the towel, go for bankruptcy, get new financing out of bankruptcy and start making cars for less money than GM? Those stock holders of the original Kmart stock ended up with a nice piece of wallpaper. I would imagine however the current Kmart/Sears to be of temporary status on the retail scene. But who knows, perhaps they do survive.
L
You need something for French and Italian automakers.
And soon Chinese. I had a red '61 MGA roadster once. There should be a law against buying a brand unless the vehicle is produced in the country of origin. A Chinese MG? The horror. The horror.
I'd have no problem, though, if they wanted to produce DeSotos or Edsels.
-Rocky
I do think GM, management should take around photo concepts and ask everyones opinion. I think Ford, was doing this for a while last year or the year before. Hell it's more likely a UAW, worker is going to buy your average GM, product than some guy in GM, management as they usually only drive Caddy's and Buicks finest.
-Rocky
That's all I asked.
I've posted links in the past and my sources would not be credible in your eyes so why bother ? :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
98% of em' drive GM cars. The other 2 point something percent drive a Ford or Chrysler. Less than 1% drive something else but others claim to have seen UAW, workers driving foreign cars. I have not seen it with my own eyes but if they did it would be properly keyed as it should be.
How long it this new contract for?
4 years.
Will Ford and Chrysler be able or willing to match this contract, or has GM set them up for failure, one way or another?
Actually it is said that Ford, will benefit more than GM, from this type of contract.
What happens if one of the other big three says fine, we throw in the towel, go for bankruptcy, get new financing out of bankruptcy and start making cars for less money than GM?
I suppose it's possible as anything is. I don't see that scenario happening in the next 4 years at least.
Those stock holders of the original Kmart stock ended up with a nice piece of wallpaper. I would imagine however the current Kmart/Sears to be of temporary status on the retail scene. But who knows, perhaps they do survive.
I think Kmart/Sears, will survive just like each of the big 3. Remember Ford, has ARM and Chrysler has Jim Press. Both have proven track records of success.
-Rocky
How is "I wouldn't have hit you with a baseball bat if you hadn't crossed our picket line" different from "I wouldn't have hit you with a baseball bat if you had just given me your wallet"? Both are assault with a deadly weapon because the other person wouldn't comply with a demand that you had no legal right to make. You seem to think that certain crimes (assault and sabotage at a minimum) suddenly become legal if you have a union card.
Ahh, the union way, see something you don't like, then resolve it by assault/battery/vandalism. Hmm, kind of like how my kids try to resolve issues. When they don't get their way, they kick, scream, and throw tantrums. But they are 9 & 5. NOT 50!!
Anyway, I've known a few people that were UAW memebers and I've never seen them drive anything but the vehicles of the companies they worked for. Quite frankly that is how it should be. It makes since to support you employer.
I grew up around the steel mills in NW Indiana. In the early 80's you wouldn't see anyone associated with the steel mills drive a foreign car, but that changed by the 90's. I knew several mill workers that drove their domestic vehicle to work and the wife would drive a Toy/Honda. I lived mainly around those who were in management/purchasing/engineering, but even the union members own foreign cars today.
My father-in-law worked as a iron worker in the mills for 30+ years, my MIL drives a Camry. Same with the retired teamster across the street from him, he has a camry too.
Why the discount? Could it be that the union workers who demand "American Car" loyalty from all us aren't really that loyal themselves, unless they get a "special" price? Don't they want to buy their cars at full price to support their union brothers? Isn't the quality of the vehicles built by union labor enough of an incentive?
When I was a kid, I remember seeing a sign in the parking lot of the local GM plant. It read, "If you drive a foreign car, don't park it here." Now THERE'S an incentive to buy GM!
But what exactly is a foreign car? The Ford Focus is built in Mexico. The Honda Civic is built in the U.S. So I must be doing my country a favor by driving a Honda.
Here's another thought: GM pays its average worker $80/hour in salary and benefits. Toyota pays $50/hour. So how does Toyota build higher quality cars than GM, and outsell GM, too?
You have a 9 year old still throwing tantrums?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for the cars people drive, I suspect if I go to the Honda plants a few miles north and cruise by their parking lots, I'll see Hondas of various models from Civic to Acura models. I know what I see round Smyrna's Nissan plant--guess. I also note that there's a lot of junker Nissan (Datsun) product that have been bought so people have the right brand transportation to work to meet what the other (nonunion) workers expect. At home they have probably their Chevy/Ford pickup and Tahoe and Escalade along with their Cavalier and Focuses. I suspect the market is good for beater Nissans in the area. That is what I would do if I didn't want to buy a new car to have the right vehicle so I don't get it keyed by the _nonunion_ people in the lot.
Now someone needs to tells us the mantra that Focuses are made in some other North American area to finish off my post and we'll have come full circle yet another boring time. At least it's not made in Japan by union labor there.
I wonder how many people pontificating about union labor HERE are driving their foreign car made by UNION labor THERE. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know, was my Mexican made Suburban built with union labor?
As for the tantrums, I was referring to how the 5 & 9 year old go about their disagreements with each other. They act like the kids they are. Which I think anymore is like many adults.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Most employees believe in and are loyal to the company they work for. Too bad though that GM, Ford and Chrysler workers had not started buying and driving Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans back in the early 80's along with their domestic brands. They would have discovered what many Americans did about Japanese brand quality. They would have then been a very strong voice to their management asking for improvements in design, engineering, materials and asssembly processes.
Non-Ford vehicles may still park in employee lots, albeit across the street."
Lean Blog
That blog isn't about getting skinny, but the irony is that all the FoMoCo employees who drive Hondas are probably healthier since they get more exercise walking further to the plant doors.
Anyone think GM accepted a higher wage and benefit scale than Ford and Chrysler will be able to offer in hopes of knocking off one or both of the competition? Is this the same old game plan, and nothing has changed? OK, we relive this over one more time. I guess when it worked in the past, it appears it may work again. Only problem is that Toyota and Honda, plus all the rest, just got stronger. Oh well, not my worry. If everyone is happy so far, then all is well. The ball is still rolling and the checks keep a coming in. So far product appears to be OK, so as long as the next couple of years hold up for reliability of the cars, it will setup GM and Ford for some greater success with the new stuff to come, hopefully in a couple years, or less.
Well I hope it all works out so that the USA keeps more production here. And I do hope there is more incentives from our government for companies to manufacturer products here in the US or A. When I was young, I use to like to watch the afternoon shows liked Industry on Parade, showcasing our mighty industries. - L
But some workers will be making less than before.
New hires who are doing what are considered noncore functions, such as combining parts from suppliers to prepare them for the assembly line, managing parts and chemicals and driving finished vehicles, will make between $14 and $16.23 an hour, or about half the starting wage of $28.12 that assembly workers would make under the new contract. Those workers also would get a 401(k)-style retirement plan instead of a fixed pension, according to the summary.
Interesting stuff. Sounds like the ratification of the contract will be gained by allowing existing GM employees to stay on the gravy train while some of their new hire "brothers" take one for the team. Does anyone remember the key line from 1984? -- "Do it to Julia!"
Wish I could say there was some way around it. As one of the Fords said not too long ago, "We've figured out what unskilled labor is worth and it's not $65 an hour." He didn't say anything about the relative worth of Ford management.
I'm amazed GM doesn't ask employees for an opinion. Are you sure that's so across the board? Employees would have some useful feedback, even if their v'points weren't completely neutral, plus they'd feel more like participants, less like humanoids. Besides, low cost and no down side (that I can see).
One of my car mags had a piece on GM's rollout of the new Corvette. Sounded like they did a lot of consumer research, including current owners who visited the plant and were treated like VIPs. (They looked like a bunch of AARPies, LOL.)
You mean GM never asks for employee feedback on product design? Hard to believe. Don't understand that one.
Of course the workers on the line should have lot's of input. Suggestions may help in the assembly and enhancement of product. I would imagine there is already something in place for that to happen. As for how they like the product, such great to have input on that too, though I would be offering a lot of people from those states which buy the most cars, an opportunity to say ya or nay as to car designs / styles appeal.
As for those AARP people you mentioned going into to look over the new Corvette's, they are indeed the bulk of the sales of new Vettes.
L
Exactly! Rocky has no problems with union members sabotaging company equipment, assaulting non-union workers with baseball bats or vandalizing cars made by non-union workers. He also can't even see why anyone else would have a problem with it, or at least not anyone whose opinion actually matters (another union member). Then he can't understand why the average person isn't pro-union anymore.