The UAW continues working without an agreement this morning at the International plant. The deadline was this morning. The company said they would move production to another plant instead of negotiating. That's one way to bust the union.
However the production is still going and workers are still working. Hopefully the negotiations will continue instead of an AK Steel setup by management occuring in Springfield.
Great observation. In the case of the 1988 Honda Accord, import fanboys can't use the argument that not a lot were built. I remember the 1988 Honda Accord, (the one with the pop-up lights) was very popular. Seemed everybody and his brother had one. I can't remember the last time I saw an '88 Accord, but I still see PLENTY of Buick Park Avenues and LeSabres of my car's vintage. Did all those Accords migrate to California or are they all now Yuengling beer cans?
I believe you have misrepresented the news article. The company didn't say they "would move production to another plant instead of negotiating". What the article says is: "company officials announced that truck assembly is going to be moved out of the Springfield plant to plants in Texas and Mexico until negotiations conclude."There's a difference. There's more to the story too. Truck sales are in the tank right now. Few big rigs are being purchased these days. This manufacturer is hanging on by a thread. So are all the other big rig manufacturers. A couple of years ago, the International assembly plant in Chatham Ontario was a candidate for closure due to low sales. The Canadian version of UAW--the CAW--decided to hold demonstrations at the site. These became violent very quickly because an unruly mob showed up--including the Union President who was charged with throwing a cement block through a vehicle window, resulting in serious injuries to the driver. He was charged and stood trial for a number of criminal offences. One of his cronies stood up in court and took the blame by lying and saying it a was him who threw the thing, not the President! The good news is that site is still operating, albeit on a much reduced scale. So this company is perhaps justifiably gunshy about any mgt/labor situation getting out of hand. Let's face it, there's often much more to these situations than first meets the eye.
Wonder how older Toyonda workers will fare sans union? Maybe they'll get the picture when their Japanese masters kick them out in the street at 50 and tell them to go work at Wal~Mart.
I also think that seeing an older guy get the shaft after many years of service builds no loyalty to the company in that younger worker.
Re pollution in Shanghai. Yes, it's bad, but not a lot different than many cities in this country (and some others too). You should visit Detroit on a hot humid day around the middle of July! You can't see the downriver area (where all ,the big steel plants are) from the other side of the Detroit river--about one mile away! When the sun is low on the horizon it just disappears into an orange murk! Furthermore, all the streets, sidewalks, and buildings everywhere are covered with a brown iron oxide stain. Nice!!
Re your older guy editorial "an older guy get the shaft after many years of service builds no loyalty to the company in that younger worker": Better have a chat with your UAW hierarchy. One of their big red buttons of late is for workers with 30 or more years seniority to take voluntary retirement so younger workers can be guaranteed a job!! Is your comment therefore sort of a dichotomy?
I have a friend that works for Chrysler in Detroit. She told me they only allow DC products in their parking lot. That was before the sellout.
It was like that before the Daimler / Chrysler "merger of equals". The lots nearest the building are for Chrysler vehicles, and the farther lots are for "competitive vehicles".
While it is true that older people should be treated with more respect by companies in general, at 50 in the auto industry, I would be retired. Start at say 20, you would have 30 years in of wear and tear on the old body. At their extremely generous wage scale, you should be able to invest your money and be retired by or before 50. Just a thought. - L
I have no prblem with good non-union workers, it's the people that cross the picket-line that I have a problem with.
Respect between and for unions of union people is something that most non-unionized workers can't appreciate. I was in a union at one time many years ago and worked at a company location of approx 2,000+ employees.
The union called a strike at one particular time and I honored it and walked the picket lines at the plant entrance every day over a couple of weeks. I had seen time after time trucks pulling up to entrance and drivers asking us what was going on. When we explained, and of course they saw our signs, not a one of them crossed the line. They turned around. I believe these were Teamster members driving the trucks. Company management had to make arrangements to go get goods and drive them into the plant by themselves. How many white collars (or non-unionized) of any company would sympathize/empathize with their peers at another company.
People are still DRIVING old Hondas in California. They are also driving older Buicks. Those older Buicks are now on the second owner status as drive to school cars, or they are still first owner cars, as in never driven over 60 MPH and usually 3 to 4,ooo miles per year. Big deal. My Olds98 back in 1986-90, actually driven less than a full four years was crap. Never did run one year without plenty of woes, had bad paint and new transmission, along with many other new parts when traded in. I guess you may find it still on the road, as you can just keep replacing all those GM parts. Face it, the cars just did not compare back then. L
I did some thinking before I decided to respond xrunner2. We all know and can throw stones at GM, for the 80's cars. However after doing some thinking about this subject I don't remember seeing any japanese car's from the 80's in a very long time. You would think such superior automobiles would still be around today. I do recall seeing some 80's domestic products on the road the last couple of days like a couple of old Chevy, Ford Pick-up's.
I see 80's Japanese cars as well as 80's GM, Ford and Chrysler on the road. Unless there are particular collectibles, such as Corvettes, late 60's Mustangs, etc., or you are very poor, don't know why anywone would want to drive 20-25 year old cars today. And, these American collectibles can last 50, 60, 70+ years given that their owners generally only drive them on weekends and keep them out of the elements. But, some people out of choice, do like to drive old non-collectibles.
In my own case, cross-shopped American brands vs Honda/Toyota in 84 and 86 and IMO, the Japanese brands were superior to American. Unlike many GM plant workers, I owned and drove an 84 and 86 Hondas and an 86 Suburban, each for approx 14 years. I could clearly see the differences. While the Suburban was a great utility vehicle that served me well, no way was it a match for quality, reliability, fit/finish, interior, paint, etc to the Hondas. Kept Hondas to 195K and 247K miles and easily sold via newspaper want-ads.
Dad, got to retire at the young age of 49 and had 27 years in. Your theory of starting at 20 and retiring at 50 sounds good and all but is not reality for most people. Alot of folks didn't start until they were much older because GM, didn't hire until then.
Come-on, xrunner2 those toyonda's had the same hard plastic as the american cars. Had friends who owned em'. :confuse: I don't know what all this quality talk is about because after 5 years in the rust belt those cars looked like they were shot up with all the holes in the sheet metal. But yeah, they were superior. :surprise:
I've been wondering how they came up with that number myself. After a little research, I came up with a study done by Ernst & Young Global Automotive Center, done on the 2003 UAW agreement. They forecast in that study that in 2007 the average hourly cost of $64.99. It is broken down as follows: Wages $28.44 OT 3.90 Vacation 6.62 Upfront Bonus 0.60 Other Misc. 2.09 Total Wages 41.65
Pension 4.94 Group Life 1.40 Healthcare 13.38 FICA&UC 3.26 Other Misc 0.35 Total Ben 23.34
Total 64.99
This does not include the cost of current retirees, but does include the future cost of retirement for active workers.
Since UAW is so vocal about which direct the company should go maybe they should just simply take the helm.
With the newly draw up contract between the UAW and GM, the automaker will transfer almost $30 billion into a what is basically a health care fund, with another $5 billion to $7 billion added down the road. As Salmon says, that's more than enough to just buy the General outright, essentially turning it into an employee-owned company.
Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
Notice that they don't dispute the number that the companies cite, they are just explaining it.
That seems pretty accurate. It doesn't include the healthcare give back from the UAW a couple years ago. Now with the UAW, taking on VEBA, that number should fall quite a bit.
-Rocky
P.S. That is the CREDIBLE evidence from a 3rd party I was looking for. Thanks for the find.
Perhaps a good idea if they could get another union like the IUE-CWA, Teamster's, etc, to go in with them and buy it out right. Of course I doubt we'll ever see that happen.
I wonder how much per hour the company is paying management per hour using the same kind of all-inclusive cost dumping? It's actually ridiculous to calculate in that manner.
So roughly $64.99 an hour for everything as of 2003. The $65 an hour is the number Delphi CEO Steve Miller, has used several times along with Bill Ford. Once you factor in everything it adds up. However a piece from that article:
How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
How much are labor costs in relation to the total price of a new vehicle?
The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
I wonder how much per hour the company is paying management per hour using the same kind of all-inclusive cost dumping? It's actually ridiculous to calculate in that manner.
You bring up a good point imidazol97 !!!!
Was it not Ford's executive "FIELDS" that was using the corporate jet to fly to Florida, every weekend costing FoMoCo. like $2.4 million. :surprise: Yeah, stuff like that is left out of the executive compensation calculations. :surprise:
who posted that they still see a lot of older Buicks from the 1980s, but no Hondas/Toyotas...
The only American cars I see that old are sitting up on milk crates, no wheels, solid rust, next to the barn, and that is only because someone mowed the grass right up to the vehicle, which was hidden from view until the mowing
Altho, just tonite, I saw a restored 1970 Olds Cutlass, 2 door, convertible, silver in showrrom condition...I guessed 1971, as the taillights were distinctive, but he said it was a 70...those were the days of REAL Rocket 350 engines, and boy, do I miss those...
Outside of the Southwestern US the HonToys from 1990s are all rusted away. See the pic of my son's 1993 4RUnner. The Japanese do not know how to rust proof their vehicles. Unless they have learned recently. How will we know until the vehicle is 15 years old? All four fenders rusted through. Reminds me or VW and Audi from the early 1970s. They figured it out.
Morale you say? Well yes. Morale booster. You may have meant moral. That is more of a stretch. Guess in most case, you have a point. Each situation is different however. And I certainly would understand someone in need of feeding his family making a tough choice in the matter, and not really seeing how this person is morally wrong. Not sure that morals are alway high on the list in such periods. People kinda make up their own list of morals to suit the moment. And yes, standing by a fellow worker is a good thing, in most cases. A Union worker is going to be expected not to cross the lines. Seems logical to me. - L
Guess that is why everyone seems to want to move to the West these days. That snow and salt is pretty nasty. Don't worry about a little rust, the truck will last forever, it's a Toyota -- drive on! L
Aren't they using US steel for body panels these days. Didn't they change the metal in Japan made products some time around mid-nineties ? Look, if you want to dig up real problems, start with the 1970's, '80's and 90's domestic problem cars right off the production line. Best not to go there. Things have improved for domestic cars. If you dig up the past, Pandora's Box will open, and countless accounts of crappy cars will be posted. Let's not go there. All cars are pretty close now for reliability. Durability, is a possible. I'll leave it at that. L
P.S. Not implying that these quality issues were caused by UAW, as most all the issues seemed to stem from design, cheap parts, engineering goofs, and such. Perhaps it was the bean counters. So in a way, we are straying into something aside of the topic anyway here.
Out family had a '68 and a '72 Cutlass Supreme. Nice looking car, that '72. I wish I had bought a last of Cutlass 442 in 1986, instead of that '87 Olds98 Regency. I think GM understood most RWD car building more, though I must add, the '68 Toronado is sweet looking indeed. The last of the RWD Supremes are still pretty good, though a '72 or '73 would be finer looks wise - you know show car stuff. Today, the New Malibu, is my guess as the future bigger seller and performer in the middle class car, as is the XR Aura. When the RWD Impala hits the showroom, it could be a big hit. That's in the future, and who knows the future? L
No doubt the early asian cars rusted early, particularly early toyota trucks, but they seem to run for ever.
As for rust, it's not like the domestics don't. The front bumper on my Suburban is starting to rust and my FIL has a 95 tahoe that he washed religiously and all four door are about to rust completely thru. I don't think we want to start up an 80's to early 90's car comparison thread. That is a big part of the reason GM finds themselves in the situation they are in.
Actually it has sat in his driveway for over a year. He is just now getting it back on the road. I sent him the recall notices on the steering. My son likes his Toyotas. I don't like having a vehicle sitting in the dealers shop so I don't buy Japanese vehicles anymore. Not everyone has the same experience with their vehicles.
If the auto makers were building vehicles the way they should they would give longer rust through warranties. only 5 years for Toyota, GM 6 years. VW 12 years. guess which one does the best job on rustproofing?
PS My son's 4Runner was rusted through at 10 years. :sick:
Aren't they using US steel for body panels these days.
I don't know Loren ??? I would assume it's Japanese or Chinese since they are the biggest steel producers. The problem with the Japanese cars back then 70's/80's was their steel didn't have the what do you call it ???? Missing elements in their steel ????? I guess some might call it Impurity or Temper Embrittlement, causing premature rusting and corrosion.
Didn't they change the metal in Japan made products some time around mid-nineties ? Look, if you want to dig up real problems, start with the 1970's, '80's and 90's domestic problem cars right off the production line. Best not to go there. Things have improved for domestic cars. If you dig up the past, Pandora's Box will open, and countless accounts of crappy cars will be posted. Let's not go there. All cars are pretty close now for reliability. Durability, is a possible. I'll leave it at that. L
P.S. Not implying that these quality issues were caused by UAW, as most all the issues seemed to stem from design, cheap parts, engineering goofs, and such. Perhaps it was the bean counters. So in a way, we are straying into something aside of the topic anyway here.
I know you and others will throw daggers at the 80's domestic vehicles. However your opposition could do the same torwards your Japanese/Euro makes and models of the same era. I could pop the lid off that old can of worms where Toyota, hid their recalls if ya like ? :P
VW 12 years. guess which one does the best job on rustproofing?
Now that you mention it, I'd say in general it seems German cars don't seem to rust to bad. I can't say that I can recall seeing a rusted out BMW, Porche, or MB. I've seen a few old VW Bugs and Rabbits that were rusted, but in all they seem to resist rust pretty well.
Has to do with some iron ore content. I am no expert on the making of the best steel. I do know that the steel is now better, and they use more coatings these days.
What are you saying here? Valued added worth per hour??? Is this value added from the end product through its life, until sold, or something else? Or it this the markup on those cars being sold which they worked on during one hours time? Not sure what the hell this means. Please decode this. L
How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
1 U.S. Census Bureau, Annual Survey of Manufactures 2005 data
I don't know exactly how it's calculated Loren. If nobody else looks up the article first I willtry to get around to it. I have a job interview east of Lansing, at 2 P.M. thus I better get some sleep as I have a long drive and day a head of me.
-good night from the Great Lake State
-Rocky
P.S. Here's a link worth reading I found earlier.....
Don't forget Rocky, the UAW is getting the VEBA funded by GM.. they have to put in, what, $30 Billion?
So where's your source on the productivity of Union shops? You claimed you remember reading it in a Union newsletter and quote it as gospel, yet when GM claims a figure you call it "propaganda".
Which one is it?
As I have said before, on a dealership level I have NEVER seen a dealer service department go Union and not drop in productivity and profitability. Not once ever.
Just to keep things in perspective. In 1970 as a journeyman Telephone technician I was making $5+ per hour. A new home in a decent neighborhood in San Diego sold for under $25k. That very same home today is more than $600,000. I would have to be making $120 per hour to stay up with the inflation in housing. So that $206 per worker hour is not that far off. I think the difference went into the pockets of the upper management.
The $28 per hour fits about what you can buy a home in Michigan for, and that is $200k. That is based on 6.5% interest. If Interest was to go up to 8% that wage would not be enough to safely buy the average home.
When I say safely, I mean without all the smoke & mirrors that has resulted in the highest rate of home loan default on record. The CA real estate market is buried in foreclosures. I know personally 3 families that are losing their homes because they were sucked into sub prime loans. It is going to get real bad in the next few years.
I say go team to the UAW for keeping a few people at a living wage.
Don't most car dealerships work on a commission basis, in both sales and service? Commission or piece work does not lend themselves to Unions. Piece work in CA killed both the construction and clothing Unions back in the 1940s & 50s. Some construction Unions such a plumbing and electrical made a come back. My mother & grandmother worked piece work to support my sister and me in a Los Angeles sewing shop.
A new home in a decent neighborhood in San Diego sold for under $25k. That very same home today is more than $600,000
That is not your typical appreciation around the country. The mid For Ex. my FIL still lives in the same house he bought in NW Indiana (he's a retired iron worker from the steel mills). He paid about $20k for it in 1973. He'd be lucky to get $100k for it today.
Accourding to the National Association or Realtors "The median existing single-family home price in the Midwest was $163,500" during the second quarter of this year. Still very affordable for many.
The NAR reported the highest metro area is San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara area of California where the median price was $865,000. Wow, need some serious coin to afford a house out there.
Just an example. Houses built by piece work can run from very good to horrible. CA is notorious for shoddy built homes. The housing boom subdivisions from the 1960s are in many cases being leveled. The slabs without steel are falling apart.
My cousin worked for a Union Contractor in Minneapolis. If the builder could slide a piece of paper between the miter joints on the trim it was ripped out and redone. You did not get many bad joints before he sent you packing. Workers are only as good as the supervision above them.
GM should demand quality work from their line workers to the CEO. Then we will get top quality cars and trucks. I don't see the UAW trying to resist if it is administered fairly.
My cousin worked for a Union Contractor in Minneapolis. If the builder could slide a piece of paper between the miter joints on the trim it was ripped out and redone. You did not get many bad joints before he sent you packing. Workers are only as good as the supervision above them.
True, if you look at any list that reports most admired companies, best managed, best companies to work for etc, you won't see a member of the Big 3 mentioned.
Comments
However the production is still going and workers are still working. Hopefully the negotiations will continue instead of an AK Steel setup by management occuring in Springfield.
link title
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The company didn't say they "would move production to another plant instead of negotiating".
What the article says is: "company officials announced that truck assembly is going to be moved out of the Springfield plant to plants in Texas and Mexico until negotiations conclude."There's a difference.
There's more to the story too.
Truck sales are in the tank right now. Few big rigs are being purchased these days. This manufacturer is hanging on by a thread. So are all the other big rig manufacturers.
A couple of years ago, the International assembly plant in Chatham Ontario was a candidate for closure due to low sales. The Canadian version of UAW--the CAW--decided to hold demonstrations at the site. These became violent very quickly because an unruly mob showed up--including the Union President who was charged with throwing a cement block through a vehicle window, resulting in serious injuries to the driver. He was charged and stood trial for a number of criminal offences.
One of his cronies stood up in court and took the blame by lying and saying it a was him who threw the thing, not the President!
The good news is that site is still operating, albeit on a much reduced scale.
So this company is perhaps justifiably gunshy about any mgt/labor situation getting out of hand.
Let's face it, there's often much more to these situations than first meets the eye.
I also think that seeing an older guy get the shaft after many years of service builds no loyalty to the company in that younger worker.
Furthermore, all the streets, sidewalks, and buildings everywhere are covered with a brown iron oxide stain. Nice!!
Re your older guy editorial "an older guy get the shaft after many years of service builds no loyalty to the company in that younger worker":
Better have a chat with your UAW hierarchy.
One of their big red buttons of late is for workers with 30 or more years seniority to take voluntary retirement so younger workers can be guaranteed a job!!
Is your comment therefore sort of a dichotomy?
It was like that before the Daimler / Chrysler "merger of equals". The lots nearest the building are for Chrysler vehicles, and the farther lots are for "competitive vehicles".
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20070930_Editorial___Three_Gorges_Dam.htm- l
Respect between and for unions of union people is something that most non-unionized workers can't appreciate. I was in a union at one time many years ago and worked at a company location of approx 2,000+ employees.
The union called a strike at one particular time and I honored it and walked the picket lines at the plant entrance every day over a couple of weeks. I had seen time after time trucks pulling up to entrance and drivers asking us what was going on. When we explained, and of course they saw our signs, not a one of them crossed the line. They turned around. I believe these were Teamster members driving the trucks. Company management had to make arrangements to go get goods and drive them into the plant by themselves. How many white collars (or non-unionized) of any company would sympathize/empathize with their peers at another company.
I see 80's Japanese cars as well as 80's GM, Ford and Chrysler on the road. Unless there are particular collectibles, such as Corvettes, late 60's Mustangs, etc., or you are very poor, don't know why anywone would want to drive 20-25 year old cars today. And, these American collectibles can last 50, 60, 70+ years given that their owners generally only drive them on weekends and keep them out of the elements. But, some people out of choice, do like to drive old non-collectibles.
In my own case, cross-shopped American brands vs Honda/Toyota in 84 and 86 and IMO, the Japanese brands were superior to American. Unlike many GM plant workers, I owned and drove an 84 and 86 Hondas and an 86 Suburban, each for approx 14 years. I could clearly see the differences. While the Suburban was a great utility vehicle that served me well, no way was it a match for quality, reliability, fit/finish, interior, paint, etc to the Hondas. Kept Hondas to 195K and 247K miles and easily sold via newspaper want-ads.
-Rocky
whether you agree or don't agree now with organized labor you honoring the strike back then was the right morale thing to do IMHO.
-Rocky
I don't know what all this quality talk is about because after 5 years in the rust belt those cars looked like they were shot up with all the holes in the sheet metal. But yeah, they were superior. :surprise:
-Rocky
930,000 mile '95 Honda Civic
Wages $28.44
OT 3.90
Vacation 6.62
Upfront Bonus 0.60
Other Misc. 2.09
Total Wages 41.65
Pension 4.94
Group Life 1.40
Healthcare 13.38
FICA&UC 3.26
Other Misc 0.35
Total Ben 23.34
Total 64.99
This does not include the cost of current retirees, but does include the future cost of retirement for active workers.
Source: pgs 30-31 http://www.cargroup.org/pdfs/LaborPaperFinal.PDF
With the newly draw up contract between the UAW and GM, the automaker will transfer almost $30 billion into a what is basically a health care fund, with another $5 billion to $7 billion added down the road. As Salmon says, that's more than enough to just buy the General outright, essentially turning it into an employee-owned company.
Source: Could the UAW buy GM?
Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
Notice that they don't dispute the number that the companies cite, they are just explaining it.
-Rocky
P.S. That is the CREDIBLE evidence from a 3rd party I was looking for. Thanks for the find.
They would have blown their cash buying GM and STILL have to pay the benefits that they would owe themselves.
-Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
How much are labor costs in relation to the total price of a new vehicle?
The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
-Rocky
You bring up a good point imidazol97 !!!!
Was it not Ford's executive "FIELDS" that was using the corporate jet to fly to Florida, every weekend costing FoMoCo. like $2.4 million. :surprise: Yeah, stuff like that is left out of the executive compensation calculations. :surprise:
-Rocky
does that include the management cost? What is the cost of managers per car--all those not physically working as are the UAW.
>the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour
The extra about the $65 cited goes to cover management cost since the company has nominally not been making any money.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The only American cars I see that old are sitting up on milk crates, no wheels, solid rust, next to the barn, and that is only because someone mowed the grass right up to the vehicle, which was hidden from view until the mowing
Altho, just tonite, I saw a restored 1970 Olds Cutlass, 2 door, convertible, silver in showrrom condition...I guessed 1971, as the taillights were distinctive, but he said it was a 70...those were the days of REAL Rocket 350 engines, and boy, do I miss those...
L
P.S. Not implying that these quality issues were caused by UAW, as most all the issues seemed to stem from design, cheap parts, engineering goofs, and such. Perhaps it was the bean counters. So in a way, we are straying into something aside of the topic anyway here.
As for rust, it's not like the domestics don't. The front bumper on my Suburban is starting to rust and my FIL has a 95 tahoe that he washed religiously and all four door are about to rust completely thru. I don't think we want to start up an 80's to early 90's car comparison thread. That is a big part of the reason GM finds themselves in the situation they are in.
PS
My son's 4Runner was rusted through at 10 years. :sick:
I don't know Loren ??? I would assume it's Japanese or Chinese since they are the biggest steel producers. The problem with the Japanese cars back then 70's/80's was their steel didn't have the what do you call it ???? Missing elements in their steel ????? I guess some might call it Impurity or Temper Embrittlement, causing premature rusting and corrosion.
Didn't they change the metal in Japan made products some time around mid-nineties ? Look, if you want to dig up real problems, start with the 1970's, '80's and 90's domestic problem cars right off the production line. Best not to go there. Things have improved for domestic cars. If you dig up the past, Pandora's Box will open, and countless accounts of crappy cars will be posted. Let's not go there. All cars are pretty close now for reliability. Durability, is a possible. I'll leave it at that. L
P.S. Not implying that these quality issues were caused by UAW, as most all the issues seemed to stem from design, cheap parts, engineering goofs, and such. Perhaps it was the bean counters. So in a way, we are straying into something aside of the topic anyway here.
I know you and others will throw daggers at the 80's domestic vehicles. However your opposition could do the same torwards your Japanese/Euro makes and models of the same era. I could pop the lid off that old can of worms where Toyota, hid their recalls if ya like ?
-Rocky
Well if it's not VW, then who gagrice ???? I guess Audi is the same as VW on warranty ????
-Rocky
Now that you mention it, I'd say in general it seems German cars don't seem to rust to bad. I can't say that I can recall seeing a rusted out BMW, Porche, or MB. I've seen a few old VW Bugs and Rabbits that were rusted, but in all they seem to resist rust pretty well.
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
1 U.S. Census Bureau, Annual Survey of Manufactures 2005 data
I don't know exactly how it's calculated Loren. If nobody else looks up the article first I willtry to get around to it.
I have a job interview east of Lansing, at 2 P.M. thus I better get some sleep as I have a long drive and day a head of me.
-good night from the Great Lake State
-Rocky
P.S. Here's a link worth reading I found earlier.....
http://www.uaw.org/barg/072/barg072_complete.pdf
So where's your source on the productivity of Union shops? You claimed you remember reading it in a Union newsletter and quote it as gospel, yet when GM claims a figure you call it "propaganda".
Which one is it?
As I have said before, on a dealership level I have NEVER seen a dealer service department go Union and not drop in productivity and profitability. Not once ever.
The $28 per hour fits about what you can buy a home in Michigan for, and that is $200k. That is based on 6.5% interest. If Interest was to go up to 8% that wage would not be enough to safely buy the average home.
When I say safely, I mean without all the smoke & mirrors that has resulted in the highest rate of home loan default on record. The CA real estate market is buried in foreclosures. I know personally 3 families that are losing their homes because they were sucked into sub prime loans. It is going to get real bad in the next few years.
I say go team to the UAW for keeping a few people at a living wage.
PS
Good luck on the job interview....
That is not your typical appreciation around the country. The mid For Ex. my FIL still lives in the same house he bought in NW Indiana (he's a retired iron worker from the steel mills). He paid about $20k for it in 1973. He'd be lucky to get $100k for it today.
Accourding to the National Association or Realtors "The median existing single-family home price in the Midwest was $163,500" during the second quarter of this year. Still very affordable for many.
The NAR reported the highest metro area is San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara area of California where the median price was $865,000. Wow, need some serious coin to afford a house out there.
Comparing a sales/service environment to manufacturing is completely apples and oranges.
My cousin worked for a Union Contractor in Minneapolis. If the builder could slide a piece of paper between the miter joints on the trim it was ripped out and redone. You did not get many bad joints before he sent you packing. Workers are only as good as the supervision above them.
GM should demand quality work from their line workers to the CEO. Then we will get top quality cars and trucks. I don't see the UAW trying to resist if it is administered fairly.
True, if you look at any list that reports most admired companies, best managed, best companies to work for etc, you won't see a member of the Big 3 mentioned.