You do realize companies, such as GM have bought into other markets, such as Germany, and have owned companies such as Opel pre-WWII era. A global market is nothing new. With jet planes and the modern communications, we are now seeing jobs taken abroad more and more, as it is now cost effective to do so. Products can be shipped quicker and services can be done over the Internet and by telephone cheaply, so yes we lose more jobs. A bunch of companies would have jumped in even sooner, had it been cost efficient some years ago. It is a World economy, and has been so for many a day. All this talk about money on a car sold going to Japan has to be put up to a mirror, as all that money from a sold Opel seems to going to USA -- big deal, it is all in the game. Build a better car, and do it for the right price, and you've got success - you have customers.
People are worried about those in Mexico not having a good paying job to support their family and thus sneaking across the borders into USA. What is wrong about building some plants there instead of some island elsewhere in the world or China? Keeping more jobs in all of America should be a positive thing. L
If we have agreed this much, in such a short time, I may be forced to terminate my marsha7 designation and go inot hiding for the next five years...this agreement between us is unprecedented, kinda like have a female President...
But it DOES mean it's a good time to play the lottery, don't you think???
dieselone: your father's experience with union mill workers is the perfect example of what I think about unions and their workers...
If I had a manufacturing plant, I would absolutely certify that no "former" union workers ever were employed there, because they bring with them an entitlement attitude and lousy work habits that are harder to break than a heroin addiction, and, quite frankly, it isn't worth the time to re-train them, cuz they will just spend the next 40 years complaining that it ain't like it was...can't be bothered, they are simply people to avoid employing for the next 3-4 generations (just to make sure the union contamination is washed out of their blood and their DNA)...
Well they did fight a decade ago but everyone was on the NAFTA & globalization bandwagon and would not listen.
Fighting globalization is like fighting summer storms or trying river to flow up. NAFTA might have closed a few factories in Ohio and Michigan (which is never nice for the people who worked there), but it also opened many more in Carolinas or Tennessee.
Just 20 years ago a typesetter was an important highly skilled and well-paying job. So what? What do you do with scores of those people who suddenly become obsolete? Nothing - they have to learn new skills and move on. What is different about UAW then? Other than larger concentration in a given geographical area - nothing. Oh, I forgot - threat of violence.
There are industries where highly qualified (and expensive) labor is paramount and those will stay here. Others will go. You can kick, scream, petition, threaten, riot, wink, drop spells, pray and do thousands of other things - if it makes no economical sense the jobs will disappear. Others will show up. In a different location, different specialty? Tough. I see no reason for employers to pay 50/hr if they could pay $10 same way as a consumer who will not pay $100 if they could pay $20. If there are less expensive equivalents there is no way of stopping that. The overpriced jobs are gone - same as overpriced products.
I read an interesting story yesterday and durn if I can't find the link now. It was about the growing concern over foreign ownership of US companies, especially in view of the fall in value of the dollar.
One company back East (CT?) got bought out and were thrilled since the new foreign owners are continuing to operate the factory in the States instead of moving the jobs offshore. And they new owner is flush so is investing in new tooling to increase productivity.
Not much to do with the UAW, but not all the doom and gloom over foreign ownership is warranted.
If I had a manufacturing plant, I would absolutely certify that no "former" union workers ever were employed there, because they bring with them an entitlement attitude and lousy work habits that are harder to break than a heroin addiction, and, quite frankly, it isn't worth the time to re-train them, cuz they will just spend the next 40 years complaining that it ain't like it was...can't be bothered, they are simply people to avoid employing for the next 3-4 generations (just to make sure the union contamination is washed out of their blood and their DNA)...
Wow, and I get tared and feathered for the things I say ! :surprise:
Because we have people who think just like you is why we are spiraling downward like a terd in the toilet. We can't afford to sustain our standard of living with free market capitalism. The cheapest competitor is always going to win and the final product get's cheaper and lasts half as long but as long as it looks new for a short period or is "trendy" it will fit the bill.
So dino, who's going to buy the crap when every american except the top 1 or 2 % are broke ? You won't have to worry about violence from the UAW, but from your ex middle management neighbor who is starving, dead broke, and has a family to feed. I know we have a lot of armchair CEO's in this forum so I'm sure you guys are in that 1 or 2 % the regular folks who revolt will over throw
I sometimes wonder if the blue collar workers wouldn't be better off if foreign owners come buy up american company's and throw these cookie cutter MBA rats out on their behinds. :mad: Tell em' they are mentally unskilled to work there.
Wal-Mart's results the last couple of years have belied that. Costco and Target are both growing sales faster. (WSJ)
"American shoppers are increasingly looking for qualities that Wal-Mart has trouble providing. "For the first time in a long time, quality has a chance to gain on price," says Lee Peterson, a vice president at Dublin, Ohio-based brand consulting firm WD Partners Inc."
So ... perhaps the Big 3 and the UAW need to chase Toyota on quality more than price.
What are you saying here? Suggesting we move on to socialism. Perhaps do away with the Constitution, and all current private enterprise? Just scrap the whole USA as we know it and turn to communism? Where exactly would you have us going to, as we look away from a world economy and our current corporate structure and laws. Where to? Is life better in Cuba? Perhaps it is the cigars? L
Yep, I shop Target for stuff in general, larger items and specials at Costco, then as a last resort will go to Wal-Mart as they have a few things others do not have and a pretty good price. The other two are nicer stores overall. Wal-Mart is starting to feel like one of those dollar stores, with nothing but China products, though they have domestic products too, just fewer it seems. And those other two stores do have loads of China products. Just seems like Wally World stores are lacking in appearance, IMHO and they have perhaps a great lean towards the lower end stuff. As for employees - no comment. Some are good people, so no sweeping comments as every experience and store seems different. - L
Wal Mart has been known to hire some upscale people. There was an old man hired as a greeter and he was very good at it, but his only defiency was coming to work late. One day the store supervisor spoke to him and asked if was always late in his former job. He confessed that was usual. The manager said, "Well, what did other people say to you when you came in late all the time?" The greeter replied, they always said, "Good Morning General".
Well Loren, I think we'd be better suited to move away from the Czar/Dictator which is in power now to at least some form of western socialism, where people without wealth still have a voice and labor unions still have rights.
>Wow, and I get tarred and feathered for the things I say !
Noone else must have read it. I think it's just trolling for comments.
Maybe union people need to be like attorneys and work 26 hours per day (billing time) and be productive at the effective rate of $200 hour and then the quality of their labor would satisfy the union-haters.
I've never been to Costco, need to get a membership there one day. They treat their employees really well I heard.
If I had the choice, I'd definitely shop Costco over Walmart/Sams Club. Costco actually pays decent wages for their fulltime help.
I used to have a membership at Costco but since we've moved, we don't have one around here. Ironically, the avg. shopper @ Costco has a household income over $70k/yr, at Sam's club it's around $35k.
So dino, who's going to buy the crap when every american except the top 1 or 2 % are broke ?
You and your UAW buddies are not "every American". There are plenty of jobs left and new are created every day. Perhaps it's time to hit books (or other means of training) and move South or West. I know, it's hard. News for you - life is hard.
So what about those poor typesetters? Would you like to turn the clock back and bring their jobs back? Lets forbid computer publishing and bring back to printing press in name of "saving jobs". How about that? It was a real tragedy - those were real people who had well-paying jobs. And those jobs were lost to computers. Oh - you don't care, cause that was progress and they did not have UAW card? That's what I thought. So why should I care about UAW? It was tough for typesetters, why should be easy for anybody else who happens to hold an obsolete job?
I defense of dieselone, he is right. Workers at large scale grocery stores are constantly in motion. I do physical inventory for retail stores as a side line and I've seen them in action. There really is no time for sitting around or taking smoke breaks.
True that. My girlfriend and I were looking for lawn chairs and saw some at Wal~Mart. She tried one out and it started to bend under her petite frame. My hefty bulk would've flattened it. I'd be willing to pay more for chairs that at least didn't bend under a little woman's weight.
Per Big Three quality vs. Toyota - we're very happy with the Buick LaCrosse she purchased two years ago. I had a Camry rental in California this summer and saw nothing special about it. There was no epiphany or any "Wow, this car is a quantum leap over our Buicks!" Heck, I think I'd have been happier driving on I-5 in my old '88 Park Avenue. You can't beat those plush seats for comfort.
rocky: let's just say that if you were to apply at my (mythical) plant, between GPS, radar, sonar, laser guidance, and Superman's x-ray vision, you wouldn't stand a chance...if fact, if you were driving on an Interstate highway within 50 miles of the plant, a mysterious force would draw you back where you started, kinda like a tractor beam from the USS Enterprise (starship, not aircraft carrier)...:):):):):):):)
Whether it is the UAW, auto mgmt, WalMart, Costco, typesetters, buggy whip makers, the one thing everybody fights is change, which is often incremental and often earth shattering...those who are victims of change will sometimes survive and adapt, or sometimes wither and die...
Someone posted about WalMart...originally, they bought American products (while Sam was alive...that stopped about 20 minutes after his funeral...something else...Sam has a policy that if 3 people stood in line at a cash register, another one was opened immediately...within a mere 3 minutes of his death, that policy was terminated, never to be resurrected again)...now they buy Chinese junk...for some consumers, this is all they can afford, and it is good...but, there appears to be a backlash, as Target and some other stores use WalMart as a bottom feeder and attempt to go a little upscale...this is how the economy adapts (or does not adapt, as the case may be)...it has taken years, and everyone looks at WalMart, but Target has also been a force and is drawing customers away from Walmart, if they want something a little better...
The UAW is simply fighting change, even while they lose market share day by day, and cannot see the forest for the trees, wanting the same level of benefits that they had in the glorious 70s-80s...but slowly they must adapt...
One poster had it right...they never seem to compete on quality, only price...like it or not, despite the problems that Toyota and Honda had, they still maintain an aura of better quality overall, and have a better reputation than the Big 3...if quality really was Job 1, and it showed in the cars as they hit 70K, 80K, 90K miles, maybe some loyalty will come back to the Big 3...but as long as they continue to play defense, it will be tough coming back...
They need to stop cutting the corners that make them seem cheap...the lousy interiors, the cheap switches, it just seems that if there is a corner to cut, Big 3 will find it...some dashboard switches just seem more ergonomic in a Honda, like someone actually asked 500 people "how would you make this better, what is it lacking?"...when you see some of the switches on American cars, it looks like they were designed by a child...every time you turn a knob or flip a switch that feels cheap or poorly designed, that will stick in your mind a long time when it is time for a new car...then you sit in a Honda, for example, switches and levers simply have a "nice feel", the door closes solid, and you just get the impression that the vehicle is well made...
Well Loren, I think we'd be better suited to move away from the Czar/Dictator which is in power now to at least some form of western socialism, where people without wealth still have a voice and labor unions still have rights.
I used to be a real lefty socialist. As I saw more of the world, I gradually realized that socialism breeds mediocrity & stagnation. There's no change, no innovation. Hell, if the U.S. had gone socialist in 1890, we would never have developed an automobile industry. Socialists have never particularly liked cars. Too individualistic.
And without a car industry, there wouldn't be a UAW for us to argue about in this forum.
I want no part of socialism. Anything the government gets their fingers in seems to go down hill. Just wait until we get socialized medicine.
I've heard a few politicians along with Michael Moore talk about taking profit out of health care, thus reducing costs while providing better coverage. I'll believe it when I see it.
For example, my wife works for a large drug store chain. They are providing flu shots administered by the pharmacist in the pharmacy for around $25. Making a nice little profit (a Pharmacists is paid about $45-50/hr plus benefits).
Our county health department is advertising the same flu shot for $30 and they are not paying a nurse anywhere near $50/hr. to administer the shot. Where is the extra money going? Bureaucratic waste is my bet.
>They need to stop cutting the corners that make them seem cheap...the lousy interiors, the cheap switches, it just seems that if there is a corner to cut, Big 3 will find it...some dashboard switches just seem more ergonomic in a Honda, like someone actually asked 500 people "how would you make this better, what is it lacking?"...
It's really weird to read someone's deifying Honda's interior and switch design along with all foreign cars and being anti US-designed cars in the process and wording.
I sat in Hondas a few months ago. Nothing impressed me. Minimalism is what I saw. The Accord seats were hard and had harder spots in them. The armrest was partly covered in a sticky mesh, the rest of the car and armrest was hard plastic.
The xB I sat in, with a drooling salesman who had siamesed himself to me despite being told to "flake off," had the worst looking plastics and even screws showing. The Camry I sat in was not much, if any, better. Even Consumer Reports found flaws in the interior there.
Let's get real in these trite criticisms. Go sit in a LaCrosse and Lucerne and Enclave and Aura. Drive a real one for a while.
Pick your other US brand car and start making real comparisons.
The problem is they would rather gripe about how bad american cars are instead of actually comparing them. If a bought and paid for pro-import car editor said it's true well it must be. :confuse:
If one can't adapt, one die. Even the all mighty one upstairs can't do anything about that.
Sooner or later in the not too distant future, machines will be advance enough to replace most workers on the assembly line. What will those UAW people do then? Demand that GM has to use man labor? Let's get real here.
Don't quote me on this but I heard a rumor that Toyota is going to covert one plant to completely automated so there won't be any danger of having a prounion employee in it.
Naah. They can train one of the locals who has had all the union washed out of their blood for 4 generations. Or maybe just find a local attorney to do it.
You won't have to work too hard to get me to agree that the latest stuff out of Detroit is much more appealing, & that some of GM's newest offerings can hold their own against the top-tier Japanese brands. But do you think that we'd be seeing these improvements in the absence of foreign competition? GM had to bleed away market share for decades before it got busy & made its products better.
Detroit lost a whole generation of buyers to imports. Sorry to say this, but it'll take years to win back a significant percentage of them. Many of them will never come back.
Detroit lost a whole generation of buyers to imports.
And the amazing thing is that they lost people I never would have figured them to lose. My Dad was one. 4 bad cars out of 5 from 1965 through 1973 and he switched to Honda for the rest of his life.
And the bleeding hasn't stopped yet. One of the techs working at a friend's garage, 56 years old, has owned nothing but Chevy since he was 16, just bought a Honda.
If he has a mediocre expeience with his new car in fairly short order, maybe some domestic gets him back, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Well who's going to fix those advance machines or are these machine i-robots ???? :confuse: What if they accidentally get smart and want the UAW to represent them. You can bet Johnny Five, would of wanted UAW help because he was alive. :P
OMG, we can't solve the problems in Iraq, but now we have machines so advance they are going replace human beings. Well if they are that smart, then may be we can replace a few executives, a president, among other things.
We can replace the physical type of works with machines but human brain is hard to be replaced.
Doesn't seem to me that the UAW type of works involve too much brain power. US needs to be the innovative center of the world, not the world's factory. Leave that to China, Vietnam or even Africa in the future.
you are killing me !!!!! Have you honestly ever been inside a automobile plant before ???? I have and not all jobs inside those plants are mindless sheep jobs. The machinery my father worked with I highly doubt you or anyone else in here could find the "ON" button let alone fix, or run quality parts off of it. :confuse:
No mere mortal could ever hope to do a UAW job rocky? Come on. Put down the koolaid
What is so "bad" or dishonorable pf_flyer, about building cars in a UAW plant ? :confuse: Is some jobs very hard work ? Yes !!! Some easy ? Yes !!! However even many of the easy jobs mentally are physically hard.
Sure it's more/less the same crap a different day but that is the case with a lot of jobs. However saying the jobs require no skills when I and other's know better is merely propoganda and disrespectful.
you are killing me !!!!! Have you honestly ever been inside a automobile plant before ???? I have and not all jobs inside those plants are mindless sheep jobs. The machinery my father worked with I highly doubt you or anyone else in here could find the "ON" button let alone fix, or run quality parts off of it. :confuse:
No, but I have something called a "brain" and I could learn how to run the equipment in a lot shorter time than it would take me to acquire the education necessary to be a scientist, doctor, lawyer, engineer etc... Assuming I have the brain power to get the advanced degrees. I had a hard enough time getting a B.S. degree LOL.
What is so "bad" or dishonorable pf_flyer, about building cars in a UAW plant ? :confuse: Is some jobs very hard work ? Yes !!! Some easy ? Yes !!! However even many of the easy jobs mentally are physically hard.
Well as dad, said the guy he replaced had a college degree. I believe he said it was in education and after 4 months of training him on his job dad said he felt he was adequate at best. Dad, said after he retired the guy decided he couldn't handle that job and transferred to GM. Dad, said it would take somebody that was very mechanically inclined to do his job and would take a few months of training.
I of course agree with you it's tougher to obtain a B.S. than any automobile job with the exception of the skilled trades. But honestly everyone I talk to says the same thing a Bachelor's degree is nothing more than a glorified high school diploma.
>But honestly everyone I talk to says the same thing a Bachelor's degree is nothing more than a glorified high school diploma.
Thirty years ago a BA meant work had been put forth and achievements accomplished. Then most states were forced into a "civil rights" plan where everyone with a high school diploma had the right for the state's citizens to pay lots of money for them to attend college at state run colleges. Things went downhill from there. The people, however, got what they wanted--everyone has a right to a college degree, whether they are college material or not.
Bachelor's degree is nothing more than a glorified high school diploma.
That depends on the school you attend and the degree you get.
You can get a Pharmacy degree and start out over $100k for a 40 hour work week (with employers throwing $30k signing bonus's at you) or you can get a degree in social work and be lucky to make $20k.
The fact remains those with a 4 yr. degree on avg. make a lot more than those who don't.
I will make sure my kids get a good education, period. The rest is up to them.
My parents and my wife's parents did the same thing and so far it has worked.
I can admit I'm not college material. I do respect those who are and have achieved a college degree. The problem is today because of what you say is true that a lot of employers not only expect a college degree, but they also expect 5+ experience in that field as a requirement for the job.
-Rocky
P.S. Guys, my new employer well pretty much lied to me. I got talking to some of the training managers and they told me it could be some time before you get a office job as a manager. I was like to them I was told they were going to open the G.R. office really soon. He said they have been saying that the whole time I've been working here but has it happened ? I was like I didn't come here to work as a door to door salesman strictly on commission with no benefits. If that's going to be the case I want no part of this job, and feel lied to. :sick: The field manager said yeah they promise new guys the moon but as you can see the money is not quite what they make it out to be. He said he works 6 days a week 8 a.m till 9:00 at night. One guy hasn't seen his wife and kids for 6 months and was catching a flight to head home. I'm like no thanks, today. I'm not selling natural gas, like those Amway, Kirby, folks on promises. :mad:
That depends on the school you attend and the degree you get.
True, but even people with thosedegrees have a hard time finding a job as employers want several years of experience or their not interested. :confuse:
The real winners are in vocational tech programs at the area vocational schools in programs that tie in with course work and associate diplomas at the local two-year Community College and some of those tie into course work for the area 4-year schools.
True, but even people with thosedegrees have a hard time finding a job as employers want several years of experience or their not interested
Not always true. Do you know how many companies recruit strait from the universities? Many. That's part of my wife's job, recruiting from universities. Her company spends a lot of time and money getting new grads.
Seriously there has never been a piece of machinery I couldn't figure out in a couple of hours.
I took metal fabrication and engineering process lab classes in college. I had never used a lathe in my life and by the end of the first class the instructor was using my parts as examples for everyone else.
The only machine that gave me any trouble during the whole semester long class was the CNC machine.
imidaz, quote "Naah. They can train one of the locals who has had all the union washed out of their blood for 4 generations. Or maybe just find a local attorney to do it."
I said 3 to 4 generations...maybe some folks will have that stuff cleansed out of them in only 3 generations, saving us, oh, about 18-20 years...speaking of local attys, maybe I ought to do it, but the Doraville and Hapeville plants are closing, so I will consider it my missed opportunity...
Silverfox: your description fits the exact image of what I have known a union shop to be...and not ONE union member has the perception, intelligence or mental awareness to comprehend the featherbedding and increased expense that the multiple duplication entails...to them, having one person point you in a direction, another person to guide you in, another separate team to unload, another team to discuss where to put it, etc, is simply normal working of a business...and all those folks who stand around doing nothing seems normal to the union member, whereas the cost of keeping them on the payroll is enormous, but they cannot understand how that simply consumes profit...in their minds, jobs are "created"...that is why the nonunion south is such a nice place to be...that attitude that surrounded me in Detroit is gone, esp with Doraville (GM) and Hapeville (Ford) closing...
Comments
People are worried about those in Mexico not having a good paying job to support their family and thus sneaking across the borders into USA. What is wrong about building some plants there instead of some island elsewhere in the world or China? Keeping more jobs in all of America should be a positive thing. L
I may have to say goodbye forever...
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But it DOES mean it's a good time to play the lottery, don't you think???
dieselone: your father's experience with union mill workers is the perfect example of what I think about unions and their workers...
If I had a manufacturing plant, I would absolutely certify that no "former" union workers ever were employed there, because they bring with them an entitlement attitude and lousy work habits that are harder to break than a heroin addiction, and, quite frankly, it isn't worth the time to re-train them, cuz they will just spend the next 40 years complaining that it ain't like it was...can't be bothered, they are simply people to avoid employing for the next 3-4 generations (just to make sure the union contamination is washed out of their blood and their DNA)...
Fighting globalization is like fighting summer storms or trying river to flow up. NAFTA might have closed a few factories in Ohio and Michigan (which is never nice for the people who worked there), but it also opened many more in Carolinas or Tennessee.
Just 20 years ago a typesetter was an important highly skilled and well-paying job. So what? What do you do with scores of those people who suddenly become obsolete? Nothing - they have to learn new skills and move on. What is different about UAW then? Other than larger concentration in a given geographical area - nothing. Oh, I forgot - threat of violence.
There are industries where highly qualified (and expensive) labor is paramount and those will stay here. Others will go. You can kick, scream, petition, threaten, riot, wink, drop spells, pray and do thousands of other things - if it makes no economical sense the jobs will disappear. Others will show up. In a different location, different specialty? Tough. I see no reason for employers to pay 50/hr if they could pay $10 same way as a consumer who will not pay $100 if they could pay $20. If there are less expensive equivalents there is no way of stopping that. The overpriced jobs are gone - same as overpriced products.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
One company back East (CT?) got bought out and were thrilled since the new foreign owners are continuing to operate the factory in the States instead of moving the jobs offshore. And they new owner is flush so is investing in new tooling to increase productivity.
Not much to do with the UAW, but not all the doom and gloom over foreign ownership is warranted.
Wow, and I get tared and feathered for the things I say ! :surprise:
-Rocky
So dino, who's going to buy the crap when every american except the top 1 or 2 % are broke ?
You won't have to worry about violence from the UAW, but from your ex middle management neighbor who is starving, dead broke, and has a family to feed. I know we have a lot of armchair CEO's in this forum so I'm sure you guys are in that 1 or 2 % the regular folks who revolt will over throw
-Rocky
-Rocky
Wal-Mart's results the last couple of years have belied that. Costco and Target are both growing sales faster. (WSJ)
"American shoppers are increasingly looking for qualities that Wal-Mart has trouble providing. "For the first time in a long time, quality has a chance to gain on price," says Lee Peterson, a vice president at Dublin, Ohio-based brand consulting firm WD Partners Inc."
So ... perhaps the Big 3 and the UAW need to chase Toyota on quality more than price.
Perhaps you have a good point pal.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Noone else must have read it. I think it's just trolling for comments.
Maybe union people need to be like attorneys and work 26 hours per day (billing time) and be productive at the effective rate of $200 hour and then the quality of their labor would satisfy the union-haters.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If I had the choice, I'd definitely shop Costco over Walmart/Sams Club. Costco actually pays decent wages for their fulltime help.
I used to have a membership at Costco but since we've moved, we don't have one around here. Ironically, the avg. shopper @ Costco has a household income over $70k/yr, at Sam's club it's around $35k.
You and your UAW buddies are not "every American". There are plenty of jobs left and new are created every day. Perhaps it's time to hit books (or other means of training) and move South or West. I know, it's hard. News for you - life is hard.
So what about those poor typesetters? Would you like to turn the clock back and bring their jobs back? Lets forbid computer publishing and bring back to printing press in name of "saving jobs". How about that? It was a real tragedy - those were real people who had well-paying jobs. And those jobs were lost to computers. Oh - you don't care, cause that was progress and they did not have UAW card? That's what I thought. So why should I care about UAW? It was tough for typesetters, why should be easy for anybody else who happens to hold an obsolete job?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Per Big Three quality vs. Toyota - we're very happy with the Buick LaCrosse she purchased two years ago. I had a Camry rental in California this summer and saw nothing special about it. There was no epiphany or any "Wow, this car is a quantum leap over our Buicks!" Heck, I think I'd have been happier driving on I-5 in my old '88 Park Avenue. You can't beat those plush seats for comfort.
Whether it is the UAW, auto mgmt, WalMart, Costco, typesetters, buggy whip makers, the one thing everybody fights is change, which is often incremental and often earth shattering...those who are victims of change will sometimes survive and adapt, or sometimes wither and die...
Someone posted about WalMart...originally, they bought American products (while Sam was alive...that stopped about 20 minutes after his funeral...something else...Sam has a policy that if 3 people stood in line at a cash register, another one was opened immediately...within a mere 3 minutes of his death, that policy was terminated, never to be resurrected again)...now they buy Chinese junk...for some consumers, this is all they can afford, and it is good...but, there appears to be a backlash, as Target and some other stores use WalMart as a bottom feeder and attempt to go a little upscale...this is how the economy adapts (or does not adapt, as the case may be)...it has taken years, and everyone looks at WalMart, but Target has also been a force and is drawing customers away from Walmart, if they want something a little better...
The UAW is simply fighting change, even while they lose market share day by day, and cannot see the forest for the trees, wanting the same level of benefits that they had in the glorious 70s-80s...but slowly they must adapt...
One poster had it right...they never seem to compete on quality, only price...like it or not, despite the problems that Toyota and Honda had, they still maintain an aura of better quality overall, and have a better reputation than the Big 3...if quality really was Job 1, and it showed in the cars as they hit 70K, 80K, 90K miles, maybe some loyalty will come back to the Big 3...but as long as they continue to play defense, it will be tough coming back...
They need to stop cutting the corners that make them seem cheap...the lousy interiors, the cheap switches, it just seems that if there is a corner to cut, Big 3 will find it...some dashboard switches just seem more ergonomic in a Honda, like someone actually asked 500 people "how would you make this better, what is it lacking?"...when you see some of the switches on American cars, it looks like they were designed by a child...every time you turn a knob or flip a switch that feels cheap or poorly designed, that will stick in your mind a long time when it is time for a new car...then you sit in a Honda, for example, switches and levers simply have a "nice feel", the door closes solid, and you just get the impression that the vehicle is well made...
I used to be a real lefty socialist. As I saw more of the world, I gradually realized that socialism breeds mediocrity & stagnation. There's no change, no innovation. Hell, if the U.S. had gone socialist in 1890, we would never have developed an automobile industry. Socialists have never particularly liked cars. Too individualistic.
And without a car industry, there wouldn't be a UAW for us to argue about in this forum.
I've heard a few politicians along with Michael Moore talk about taking profit out of health care, thus reducing costs while providing better coverage. I'll believe it when I see it.
For example, my wife works for a large drug store chain. They are providing flu shots administered by the pharmacist in the pharmacy for around $25. Making a nice little profit (a Pharmacists is paid about $45-50/hr plus benefits).
Our county health department is advertising the same flu shot for $30 and they are not paying a nurse anywhere near $50/hr. to administer the shot. Where is the extra money going? Bureaucratic waste is my bet.
It's really weird to read someone's deifying Honda's interior and switch design along with all foreign cars and being anti US-designed cars in the process and wording.
I sat in Hondas a few months ago. Nothing impressed me. Minimalism is what I saw. The Accord seats were hard and had harder spots in them. The armrest was partly covered in a sticky mesh, the rest of the car and armrest was hard plastic.
The xB I sat in, with a drooling salesman who had siamesed himself to me despite being told to "flake off," had the worst looking plastics and even screws showing. The Camry I sat in was not much, if any, better. Even Consumer Reports found flaws in the interior there.
Let's get real in these trite criticisms. Go sit in a LaCrosse and Lucerne and Enclave and Aura. Drive a real one for a while.
Pick your other US brand car and start making real comparisons.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
If one can't adapt, one die. Even the all mighty one upstairs can't do anything about that.
Sooner or later in the not too distant future, machines will be advance enough to replace most workers on the assembly line. What will those UAW people do then? Demand that GM has to use man labor? Let's get real here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Naah. They can train one of the locals who has had all the union washed out of their blood for 4 generations. Or maybe just find a local attorney to do it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Detroit lost a whole generation of buyers to imports. Sorry to say this, but it'll take years to win back a significant percentage of them. Many of them will never come back.
-Rocky
And the amazing thing is that they lost people I never would have figured them to lose. My Dad was one. 4 bad cars out of 5 from 1965 through 1973 and he switched to Honda for the rest of his life.
And the bleeding hasn't stopped yet. One of the techs working at a friend's garage, 56 years old, has owned nothing but Chevy since he was 16, just bought a Honda.
If he has a mediocre expeience with his new car in fairly short order, maybe some domestic gets him back, but I wouldn't bet on it.
OMG, we can't solve the problems in Iraq, but now we have machines so advance they are going replace human beings. Well if they are that smart, then may be we can replace a few executives, a president, among other things.
-Rocky
We can replace the physical type of works with machines but human brain is hard to be replaced.
Doesn't seem to me that the UAW type of works involve too much brain power. US needs to be the innovative center of the world, not the world's factory. Leave that to China, Vietnam or even Africa in the future.
Got to get better, not standing still...
you are killing me !!!!! Have you honestly ever been inside a automobile plant before ???? I have and not all jobs inside those plants are mindless sheep jobs. The machinery my father worked with I highly doubt you or anyone else in here could find the "ON" button let alone fix, or run quality parts off of it. :confuse:
-Rocky
What is so "bad" or dishonorable pf_flyer, about building cars in a UAW plant ? :confuse: Is some jobs very hard work ? Yes !!! Some easy ? Yes !!! However even many of the easy jobs mentally are physically hard.
Sure it's more/less the same crap a different day but that is the case with a lot of jobs. However saying the jobs require no skills when I and other's know better is merely propoganda and disrespectful.
-Rocky
No, but I have something called a "brain" and I could learn how to run the equipment in a lot shorter time than it would take me to acquire the education necessary to be a scientist, doctor, lawyer, engineer etc... Assuming I have the brain power to get the advanced degrees. I had a hard enough time getting a B.S. degree LOL.
Nothing is dishornorable about it.
I of course agree with you it's tougher to obtain a B.S. than any automobile job with the exception of the skilled trades. But honestly everyone I talk to says the same thing a Bachelor's degree is nothing more than a glorified high school diploma.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Thirty years ago a BA meant work had been put forth and achievements accomplished. Then most states were forced into a "civil rights" plan where everyone with a high school diploma had the right for the state's citizens to pay lots of money for them to attend college at state run colleges. Things went downhill from there. The people, however, got what they wanted--everyone has a right to a college degree, whether they are college material or not.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That depends on the school you attend and the degree you get.
You can get a Pharmacy degree and start out over $100k for a 40 hour work week (with employers throwing $30k signing bonus's at you) or you can get a degree in social work and be lucky to make $20k.
The fact remains those with a 4 yr. degree on avg. make a lot more than those who don't.
I will make sure my kids get a good education, period. The rest is up to them.
My parents and my wife's parents did the same thing and so far it has worked.
-Rocky
P.S. Guys, my new employer well pretty much lied to me. I got talking to some of the training managers and they told me it could be some time before you get a office job as a manager. I was like to them I was told they were going to open the G.R. office really soon. He said they have been saying that the whole time I've been working here but has it happened ? I was like I didn't come here to work as a door to door salesman strictly on commission with no benefits. If that's going to be the case I want no part of this job, and feel lied to. :sick: The field manager said yeah they promise new guys the moon but as you can see the money is not quite what they make it out to be. He said he works 6 days a week 8 a.m till 9:00 at night. One guy hasn't seen his wife and kids for 6 months and was catching a flight to head home. I'm like no thanks, today. I'm not selling natural gas, like those Amway, Kirby, folks on promises. :mad:
True, but even people with thosedegrees have a hard time finding a job as employers want several years of experience or their not interested. :confuse:
-Rocky
P.S. Glad your saving for your kids.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not always true. Do you know how many companies recruit strait from the universities? Many. That's part of my wife's job, recruiting from universities. Her company spends a lot of time and money getting new grads.
I took metal fabrication and engineering process lab classes in college. I had never used a lathe in my life and by the end of the first class the instructor was using my parts as examples for everyone else.
The only machine that gave me any trouble during the whole semester long class was the CNC machine.
I said 3 to 4 generations...maybe some folks will have that stuff cleansed out of them in only 3 generations, saving us, oh, about 18-20 years...speaking of local attys, maybe I ought to do it, but the Doraville and Hapeville plants are closing, so I will consider it my missed opportunity...
Silverfox: your description fits the exact image of what I have known a union shop to be...and not ONE union member has the perception, intelligence or mental awareness to comprehend the featherbedding and increased expense that the multiple duplication entails...to them, having one person point you in a direction, another person to guide you in, another separate team to unload, another team to discuss where to put it, etc, is simply normal working of a business...and all those folks who stand around doing nothing seems normal to the union member, whereas the cost of keeping them on the payroll is enormous, but they cannot understand how that simply consumes profit...in their minds, jobs are "created"...that is why the nonunion south is such a nice place to be...that attitude that surrounded me in Detroit is gone, esp with Doraville (GM) and Hapeville (Ford) closing...
-Rocky