Plug into www.collegeboard.com as recommended by Scott Burns whose column appears in your Seattle Times. Sunday, October 7, 2007 page H2, Business Section.
If you still have or can obtain last Sunday's Times, his article is worth the read.
Wonder how the numbers would pan out if you got through school paying your own way or with the help of your folks? The union apprenticeship programs seem to pay ok while you are grinding your way through ~5 years of learning a journeyman trade, but you may have some long gaps when your name doesn't get called on the list if the job market is slow.
A test for tobacco? Geeze, where the heck are they going to find an applicant as most guys I knew when I worked in an industrial setting smoked! Good God, what's next? A test for McDonald's? "Sorry, you're highly skilled and definately qualified for the job, but you're a Big Mac junkie. Lola Granola over there can't lift more than 10 lbs. and has absolutely no experience, but she gets the job because she neither smokes or eats junk food."
I use tobacco, as I said lemko. It makes no sense and what you just said is how I see it pal. :confuse:
Hey, if you do get that Ford dealership job, keep us posted of your experiences in the "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" forum under "Smart Shopper."
I will pal. Just remind me once I tell ya I got the job. I would like to apply for this Chevy sales job up north but it's a couple hours away. They said they would train and required no previous sales experience. I have a good feeling something is going to work out for me soon.
Back to the UAW:
Well I did hear back from UAW local 730 and they told me to forward Michelle Krebs story to UAW HQ by calling them. So tommorow that's my plan.
If by any chance I'm one of those 'names you're not mentioning', please understand than any employer worth its salt will always try to hire the best candidate for the job. There is a highly respected management guru named Jim Collins who suggests in his book 'From Good To Great' that 'People are not your most importsnt asset---the RIGHT people are your most important asset!' You seem to have a problem with that philosophy. I would humbly suggest you do some serious thinking about it if you are serious about finding that elusive right job. Like I said in an earlier post, there should be three main criteria (The three 'C's') a candidate's must demonstrate---(1) Competence; (2) Charisma; and (3) Character. Of the three, 'Character' is the most important. If you can accept that and put it into practice, your chances of finding that right job are much improved.
Interesting article indeed--but not new news. It certainly underscores the value of education in the workplace. The downside of that issue is the elitism associated with higher education. We are taught that higher education is the 'key to success', but it creates an elitist mindset that stigmatizes other forms of education and training, such as skilled trades, services, etc. Hence there are serious shortages in the work force in these non 'college education' employment sectors. Many countries in Europe for example, recognized this a long time ago, and their education systems are dual track; one involves university education, and the other involves other forms of education and training. Both tracks have equal status in their systems, and someone who studies 'Hotel Management' for example is considered no less important than someone who studies 'Medicine'. I believe the European system is the better of the two in the long run.
"I'm glad I'm not applying at some of y'alls company's. (I won't mention any names ) It would be like working for Pol Pot."
I get this sneaky feeling that some of those "y'alls" are highly unlikely to hire you, so that evens the playing field, don't you think???... :P
You can have all the bad habits you want, just don't expect to be able to work many places with them...
Once you accept the concept that you really don't have as many rights as your fantasies tell you that you do, you will achieve total comprehension and nirvana, and understand why some folks don't want you within a mile of their business...the concept is simple, you just refuse to accept it...your right to have certain habits ends at the door to employment with my office, as now the rights are all mine, and you have no choice but to submit, IF YOU WANT TO WORK IN THIS ENVIRONMENT...so stop twaddling about your rights, as you simply don't have any...
Has the UAW ever gone on strike for a legitimate reason (i.e. public safety or the longevity of a particular company via quality as opposed to greed)? The member of the UAW have always had better than average wages and benefits in my lifetime (~1970 and on). Did the UAW go on strike after? 1. the publication of condemning data about the Chevy Corvair in the 1960's. 2. the information about the Ford Pinto and rear impact explosions in the 1970's. 3. the information about Ford Explorers and rollovers in the late 1990's. 4. after the 3rd straight blistering of the Chevy Suburban by Consumer Reports in the 1990's.
There are lots of nuances involving product quality and safety that would warrant a work force on strike until the engineers resolve the defect. Has a useful strike ever been waged by the UAW or is always "stickin' it to the man" by asking for more money?
Ford Pinto and rear impact explosions in the 1970's.
I suspect that unions have gone on strike to protect their own workers. Coal miners would probably be a recent example if one started searching. (Quikies - link and link)
The other stuff threatens union jobs, but the nexus isn't close enough to warrant a strike that would take money out of the worker's pocket when other market forces are working on the company to better their product.
Article says Honda is accepting job applications for its new plant from people who live in certain restricted geographic areas - which just happens to exclude those areas where most laid-off UAW workers live. Says a lot about what Honda thinks of the mindset of a union worker - Honda would would rather have an untrained worker than one who worked in a union shop.
I can feel the pain for those former UAW workers toward this issue. It's really not their fault about joining UAW, anybody under that situation would do exactly the same. However, that doesn't mean that I think there is any wrong doing in Honda's part. If I am Honda I would also not hire any former UAW worker and train newbies myself. I much rather to influence my philosophy and preferred working habits into those "un-contaminated" minds rather than those who are used to the "union way".
I know it definitely sucks for those former UAW workers but there is really nothing they can do about it. This is reality and they can either choose to whine about it or suck it up and move on. If they want to blame someone, blame the UAW.
"When is the auto business -- and the union that depends on it for survival -- going to start running like a business and not a post-war industrial welfare state?"
"word is leaking out – or deliberately being leaked out to strengthen the automakers hand – that Cerberus Capital Management, Chrysler’s new owner, is planning even deeper job cuts than announced earlier this year."
Wrong!! Self esteem has little to do with it, and competence has everything to do with it. The European educational model has been proven better on average that the North American system in many ways. I say "on average' because it is more consistently better overall. Some secondary schools and universities in the US are world class--Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech, are examples of this, and can match any of the best in the world--but that standard isn't met by the vast majority here. And where the NA model is poor---it is really poor. The European model stresses competence, and consistently produces more 'competence' than its NA counterpart. I do heartily agree however, that "there is too much unearned self esteem in this land". Also, far too much self indulgence. Those are two big reasons why we aren't well liked by the rest of the world.
and, I assume, Nissan, (plus the Korean makers) would be fools to hire anyone that has a thrid cousin who belonged to the UAW...they are trouble makers, rabble rousers, and certainly make life difficult for the automakers...
Plus, most import plants go where they can fire rotten employees w/o union grievance procedures, which are designed by their nature to keep the most worthless and useless employees on the line...
It should be easy to provide ONE benefit the unions provide the corporations? Just ONE? Shouldn't this work both ways?? Seems Union workers feel they're owed everything and owe nothing in return?
If building competitive, well built automobiles at a profit is a "race to the bottom", LETS GO!! I read where Toyota plants in USA, with no unions, are actually paying workers more than at Big 3 plants with their bonus and incentive plans!!
What benefit does the Union provide the OEMs? Lower costs? Higher Quality? Just seems like extortion to me?
They provide neither. I guess you need to ask your dad or grandfather how things were when working in a factory years ago before unions. When they could work you 10-12 hours a day, six or seven days a week and pay strait time at wages that would barely pay your bills. You could work for them 5-10 years and get a weeks vacation.
One thing unions has also done is raise the wages of other companies and personal. A supervisor I use to work for was all for us getting a raise and more benefits. He said what ever we got, they got a little more. Non union shops would raise their wages to keep their employees from jumping ship to union shops.
Unions aren't all good. Some times they go overboard and put the company in a bad position by demanding to much. I think the auto union has done that. But it was the unions and manufacturing that made the middle class in this country.
I am certain your company is a model of success and your arrogance and judgemental attitude is well-deserved.
Some people who claim to have rights "all theirs" can have said rights removed permanently, in a split second. It will be more common in time, as the economy devolves.
w/o union grievance procedures, which are designed by their nature to keep the most worthless and useless employees on the line...
That is not really true. It also behooves the Union to have workers that are competent. In my 45 years experience, management was where most of the incompetence was resting. A good manager will build a case against a lousy worker that the Union will not be able to protect. Most of the time it is personality conflicts and not actual poor workmanship that brings on a grievance. As a shop steward I was trained by the Union to weed out the frivolous grievances.
That said if I was Honda or Toyota I would not hire from a UAW region either. They will pass out Union cards and try to organize. The purpose to get better wages and benefits than the non-union auto maker provides.
The last few NLRB elections I was involved in ended with the companies out smarting the Union. They would offer big bonuses and add money to the 401K. My reaction, good for them. The company is treating the employees as they should. Without Unions we would be back to sweatshops and slave labor. It is all part of the checks and balance between the workers and the companies.
I do agree on standards for hiring. I would not hire people covered with holes and tattoos in and on their body. It is repulsive to much of the public. Not an image most companies want to put forth. A smoker does raise your health care premiums. I find no problem with drug and alcohol testing.
"... are actually paying workers more than at Big 3 plants with their bonus and incentive plans!!" ==========================================================
Sometimes posts are made that are knowingly false, or misleading, just to stir up destructive discussions.
You didn't get the point. Put another way: the European education system promotes more self esteem than competence.
When it comes to higher education, the USA is supreme because it is more competitive to enter, study, & graduate. The key word is "competitive".
If the European education was better, the countries over there would be better and they are not. No country over there has the problem of illegal immigrants trying to get in because this is where they want to be, knowing it's better.
So the rest of the world doesn't like us. Our economy and system is not running a popularity contest. We are who we are and we are the best. What does it gain us to be liked? Feel good emotions don't count. :P
Well I found out one thing and that is I will never buy anything Honda, ever again !!!!! That was the final straw !!!! :mad: I wanna know if I can file a multi-billion dollar lawsuit against Honda, for discrimination ???? :mad:
They provide neither. I guess you need to ask your dad or grandfather how things were when working in a factory years ago before unions
Oh no doubt, 100 years ago there was a need for unions, but times have changed, people are better educated etc... Now the tides have changed though, unions are the a equivalent of dinosaurs, so politically slanted, no concern for the companies they extort, all about themselves - The opposite of what JFK asked of Americans years ago.
I think it's unions destroying the middle class today. At least that's what happening in Michigan where unions are strongest.
Still my simple question remains unanswered - What do Unions do for the Big 3? What benefit do they provide to the Big 3?
I love it! Honda really cares about people. But only if they're "certain" people. They have hiring areas but if you move into that area to qualify as a worker, it might slow down the startup of the factory? Duh.
If it's not transparent that the Honda folks are discriminating, along with the Republican governor of Indiana, against blacks and union workers, you've got your head in the sand. Compared to actions in other plants and startups it's even more clear here. But y'all come and buy our cars, now, ya' hear. Just don't apply to work for us.
I said that there was discrimination when the Honda planst in Ohio started up. Some probably didn't believe me. The EEOC suit in Oho is funny.
I'll bet that anyone living within the 20 county employment zone in Indiana that has a clear union history (union in the blood, I believe marsha7 called it?) won't be employed.
>Actually makes me more likely to buy a Honda.
Actually the behavior says a lot about how the Japanese feel about people in the US> We want the lesser_educated to work so they won"t figure out they"re being underpaid! B
How did the word "discrimination" come to have a negative connotation? If you decide to buy a Ford doesn't that mean that you are "discriminating" against Chevy? Businesses have a responsibility first to their owners (shareholders) to earn a profit so they can stay in business to continue to earn said profit. Whatever management does or does not do will ultimately be measured by the bottom line. Businesses are not created to supply jobs but to earn a profit and if they don't, they will go away along with those jobs. Heard on the news this morning that GM workers approved the contract at the 66% level; If this is correct, my 72.5% guess finished out of the money. DQ
I think it's unions destroying the middle class today. At least that's what happening in Michigan where unions are strongest.
I think you nailed it. It can't be just a coincidence that all union-strong industries and states are dying and those not-unionized are growing and blooming.
Since union bosses largest concern is membership dues and their well-paid leaderhip jobs, their efforts will be in preserving them for long-enough time so they can comfortably retire. If the industries they are slaying are to die next day, so be it - what do they care? They will be retired already - on union pension of course, not the companies' they destroy. And I would not be very surprised if those union pension fun managers were not investing in union-run industries. They know better...
silverfox: The European educational model has been proven better on average that the North American system in many ways.
Europeans are struggling with grade inflation and meaningless degrees, too. For example, my cousins in Germany keep going back to the university for yet another degree, paid for by the government, but never seem to get a real job.
Plus, American schools are better at nurturing and encouraging students with a more entrepreneurial bent.
American schools have struggled with educating the poor and minorities. Now European schools are now struggling with the same set of challenges, as shown by the recent riots in France, as well as problems with assimilating immigrants from the Middle East in Germany and England.
silverfox: Some secondary schools and universities in the US are world class--Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech, are examples of this, and can match any of the best in the world--but that standard isn't met by the vast majority here.
The majority of European universities are not world-class, either.
silverfox: I say "on average' because it is more consistently better overall.
They are both about the same, based on real-world (not test) results. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.
imidazol97: Actually the behavior says a lot about how the Japanese feel about people in the US> We want the lesser_educated to work so they won"t figure out they"re being underpaid!
We divine how an entire nation feels about America workers based on the (alleged) actions of one company regarding one set of American workers?
Honda (and Toyota) want a MORE educated worker in their plants than the typical UAW member. Under their system, workers are expected to assume responsibility for quality and take proactive steps if something is wrong (i.e, stop the line if there is a quality problem).
A worker has labored under the "that's-not-my-job" union mentality and "the-line-keeps-running-no-matter-what" management attitude would not be considered a desirable candidate.
Japanese automobile companies have typically been much more selective in their hiring than American companies have been.
As for being "underpaid" - if the workers don't like the pay, they don't have to work at any Honda operation. They are free to seek higher pay at another plant, if they believe that their skill set will garner them more in wages and benefits.
I think it only goes to show just how good the domestic automakers are to match the foreign manufacturers' quality despite all those disadvantages. Geeze, without all those disadvantages, domestic vehicles would probably be far superior to the foreign makes.
more on the companies right(s)to demand testing for hiring candidates and current employees. We may or may not like it but here is a way to start working on this horribly overpriced health care system in America.
I once toiled for Boeing making airplanes and now work in the Allied Health field. I am making more money in healthcare but my benefits are a tad worse so the money is close to my 2003 Boeing employee compensation. But working right in the field I see how much we charge people for our hospital services. All I can say is "Yikes!"
Although it may seem militaristic and harsh and "against our rights" I can see the smarts in discriminating against tobacco or alcohol or tobacco chewers or overeaters(gross overeaters) when making a hiring decision. In this manner companies can start fighting back against huge healthcare costs, loss of service to them because of time off for medical emergencies, etc. It is a direct way that companies can address what Hillary and Bill discussed they would attempt to overhaul in 1993.
Managers and lawyers and guns and money(what a song, Mr.Warren Zevon!)will pave this issue more clearly(or frustratingly!)for all of us in the coming years and groups like the ACLU will fight it. But it's merits must be considered in light of health care costs dragging down profits and employees bad habits effects on productivity.
The disconnect is that people want the right to engage in certain behaviors that are detrimental to health in the long run, but still expect someone else to pick up the tab for the doctor bills resulting from said behaviors.
I'm all for people having the right to choose their eating, smoking, drinking and exercise (or lack thereof) habits. But I also believe that they can pay for the negative consequences that may arise from those choices.
It's a very sticky problem, and not one that only affects the automobile industry.
It's not like you are looking forward to buy a Honda anyway.
By the way, I would love to see the outcome of that multi-billion dollar discrimination law suit that you are going to file against Honda. Hopefully through that Honda will re-enforce its belief that stay away from UAW is a really really good idea...
I won't spend too much more time on this because it has little to do with the UAW topic we're supposed to be discussing, so here's my final comment. Suffice to say, believe what you wish, but there are numerous international comparison studies of both US and European educational systems I'll only cite a few key statistics here.
USA Ranking on Adult Literacy Scale: #9 (#1 Sweden and #2 Norway)- OECD
USA Ranking of Student Reading Ability: #12 (#1 Finland and #2 South Korea)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking of Student Problem Solving Ability: #26 (#1 South Korea and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking on Student Mathematics Ability: # 24 (#1 Hong Kong and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking of Student Science Ability: #19 (#1 Finland and #2 Japan)- OECD PISA 2005
USA Ranking on Journalistic Press Freedom Index: #32 (#1 Finland, Iceland, Norway and the Netherlands tied)- Reporters Without Borders 2005
USA Ranking on Quality of Life Survey: #13 (#1 Ireland and #2 Switzerland)- The Economist Magazine ...Wikipedia "Celtic Tiger" if you still have your doubts.
USA Ranking on Environmental Sustainability Index: #45 (#1 Finland and #2 Norway)- Yale University ESI 2005
USA Ranking on Overall Currency Strength: #3 (US Dollar) (#1 UK pound sterling and #2 European Union euro)- FTSE 2006....the dollar is now a liability, so many banks worldwide have planned to switch to euro
USA Ranking on Human Development Index (GDP, education, etc.): #10 (#1 Norway and #2 Iceland)- UN Human Development Report 2005
Miscellany: New international student enrollment in US grad schools has decreased by 6%, because of xenophobic post-9/11 US visa restrictions, jacked-up tuition fees and better educational opportunities in the EU and Asia. So no, not everyone wants to come here anymore, because it's become a land of incredibly limited opportunity, and we've lowered our educational standards.
Personally, I would agree we are quite capable of doing better. We have the capability, but do we have the will to make that happen? That's where I think we have a problem.
people in the media start throwing out 'statistics' from some tests which probably aren't conducted in a correct manner citing that the "US is #2038 behind in math or science." The tests usually compare only the few percent from one country to another. How do the other 95% compare? The rest of the story is that people never want to cite that "Oh we're 23 behind Japan in something where they're #1 or #2" so we have to catch up.
They never cite that teachers in Japan are paid as professionals and have much time and freedom in preparing for their classwork along with a high respect level.
They never cite that students in Japan don't go to homes where Monday night football is favored by an overweight couch potato who sits on the counch and knows everything the counch should have done, etc., over Monday night studying for future tests and for learning in a subject.
People are selective about which fact--almost like politicians who play on the fact that most people are naive about things and will hear whatever 5-second soundbite sounds best and vote for that image the politician displays.
We need to do testing and compare about how our county picks their politicians. That will be much more productive.
For the most part I agree with you, however let me tell you about my personal experience:
I came to this country when I was 13 (8th grade) and I didn't learn a new thing in my math class until I was in the 11th grade (pre-cal).
Amazing. No?
On the other hand, when comes to higher education (college and beyond), that's where the US shines. I think this is because under our education system we promote the idea of being a "free thinker". A person who can think and develop logic by himself can be more successful once encounter with tougher and more complicated problems in college or grad school. Asian education system "stuff" knowledge into a person's brain rather than make them understand "why". This method works well back in secondary schools but unfortunately restricts a person's development afterward.
I wouldn't mind saying that US' education system is design for the elitist but ultimately this is better for the country's overall competitiveness. If I have to choose I'll choose ours over other countries'.
In my prior posts, I mentioned real-world results (i.e., how people fare AFTER they get out of school), not test results.
Those are what is important. And our students handle themselves as well as any European student.
There are lots of people who score well on tests, and fail in the real world.
As for your other rankings - environmental sustainability, quality of life...? Sounds like surveys with loaded questions to get the rankings that the surveyors wanted.
Ireland has a higher quality of life than the U.S.? Having been there, I can say that it is a wonderful country, but it isn't really "better" than the U.S.
Finland and Norway rank higher on the environmental sustainability index than the U.S.? When those countries have large geographic areas that require heating and cooling for all buildings at different parts of the year (as the northeastern U.S. does), or are unbearable without air conditioning for several months of the year (southern U.S.), let me know.
Ireland and Switzerland are hardly hellholes, but compared to the U.S., it's a case of six of one, a half-dozen of the other. They both have their strengths, although I note than neither Ireland or Switzerland admits large numbers of immigrants from a completely foreign culture (Eastern Europe doesn't count as a "completely foreign culture"). Wonder how that would affect their "rankings"...
My roommate in college came from the British education system. He tested out of and/or was awarded enough credits to skip all of the core required freshman courses. He started his freshman year as a sophomore with 32 credits. Ended up graduating in two and a half years with a two bachelors, one in computer science the other in math, and a minor in economics.
Yes, quality of life is subjective. Any place will have people who hate it there, and those who love it. If anything, however, nobody can truly claim the US has the highest quality of life in the first world. The domination has died.
Perhaps Ireland and Switzerland are simply smarter for not being misled into unsustainable immigration (unlike France and Germany, not to mention others). Should one nation seek to handicap itself, others should not have to compensate.
Comments
If you still have or can obtain last Sunday's Times, his article is worth the read.
Wonder how the numbers would pan out if you got through school paying your own way or with the help of your folks? The union apprenticeship programs seem to pay ok while you are grinding your way through ~5 years of learning a journeyman trade, but you may have some long gaps when your name doesn't get called on the list if the job market is slow.
I use tobacco, as I said lemko. It makes no sense and what you just said is how I see it pal. :confuse:
Hey, if you do get that Ford dealership job, keep us posted of your experiences in the "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" forum under "Smart Shopper."
I will pal. Just remind me once I tell ya I got the job. I would like to apply for this Chevy sales job up north but it's a couple hours away. They said they would train and required no previous sales experience. I have a good feeling something is going to work out for me soon.
Back to the UAW:
Well I did hear back from UAW local 730 and they told me to forward Michelle Krebs story to UAW HQ by calling them. So tommorow that's my plan.
-Rocky
(I won't mention any names
-Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071009/UPDATE/710090428/1148- /rss25
-Rocky
There is a highly respected management guru named Jim Collins who suggests in his book 'From Good To Great' that 'People are not your most importsnt asset---the RIGHT people are your most important asset!'
You seem to have a problem with that philosophy.
I would humbly suggest you do some serious thinking about it if you are serious about finding that elusive right job.
Like I said in an earlier post, there should be three main criteria (The three 'C's') a candidate's must demonstrate---(1) Competence; (2) Charisma; and (3) Character.
Of the three, 'Character' is the most important.
If you can accept that and put it into practice, your chances of finding that right job are much improved.
It certainly underscores the value of education in the workplace.
The downside of that issue is the elitism associated with higher education.
We are taught that higher education is the 'key to success', but it creates an elitist mindset that stigmatizes other forms of education and training, such as skilled trades, services, etc.
Hence there are serious shortages in the work force in these non 'college education' employment sectors.
Many countries in Europe for example, recognized this a long time ago, and their education systems are dual track; one involves university education, and the other involves other forms of education and training.
Both tracks have equal status in their systems, and someone who studies 'Hotel Management' for example is considered no less important than someone who studies 'Medicine'.
I believe the European system is the better of the two in the long run.
Let's see if anyone notices...
(I won't mention any names ) It would be like working for Pol Pot."
I get this sneaky feeling that some of those "y'alls" are highly unlikely to hire you, so that evens the playing field, don't you think???...
You can have all the bad habits you want, just don't expect to be able to work many places with them...
Once you accept the concept that you really don't have as many rights as your fantasies tell you that you do, you will achieve total comprehension and nirvana, and understand why some folks don't want you within a mile of their business...the concept is simple, you just refuse to accept it...your right to have certain habits ends at the door to employment with my office, as now the rights are all mine, and you have no choice but to submit, IF YOU WANT TO WORK IN THIS ENVIRONMENT...so stop twaddling about your rights, as you simply don't have any...
1. the publication of condemning data about the Chevy Corvair in the 1960's.
2. the information about the Ford Pinto and rear impact explosions in the 1970's.
3. the information about Ford Explorers and rollovers in the late 1990's.
4. after the 3rd straight blistering of the Chevy Suburban by Consumer Reports in the 1990's.
There are lots of nuances involving product quality and safety that would warrant a work force on strike until the engineers resolve the defect. Has a useful strike ever been waged by the UAW or is always "stickin' it to the man" by asking for more money?
I suspect that unions have gone on strike to protect their own workers. Coal miners would probably be a recent example if one started searching. (Quikies - link and link)
The other stuff threatens union jobs, but the nexus isn't close enough to warrant a strike that would take money out of the worker's pocket when other market forces are working on the company to better their product.
Strike news:
UAW strikes Chrysler
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119196377029953821.html
Article says Honda is accepting job applications for its new plant from people who live in certain restricted geographic areas - which just happens to exclude those areas where most laid-off UAW workers live. Says a lot about what Honda thinks of the mindset of a union worker - Honda would would rather have an untrained worker than one who worked in a union shop.
Actually makes me more likely to buy a Honda.
I know it definitely sucks for those former UAW workers but there is really nothing they can do about it. This is reality and they can either choose to whine about it or suck it up and move on. If they want to blame someone, blame the UAW.
Daniel Howes: Stakes high for UAW, Chrysler (Detroit News)
"word is leaking out – or deliberately being leaked out to strengthen the automakers hand – that Cerberus Capital Management, Chrysler’s new owner, is planning even deeper job cuts than announced earlier this year."
Chrysler’s Turn in the Spotlight This Week (AutoObserver)
But - it's over? Already?
Happy Ending To Detroit Drama (Forbes)
We didn't even have time to get a pool going. :P
Only if you believe self esteem is more important than competence.
Status should not be equal in all studies in a competitive and capitalistic society. MD's outrank RpH and RpH outrank RN and RN out ranks CNN.
There is already too much unearned self esteem in this land.
The European educational model has been proven better on average that the North American system in many ways.
I say "on average' because it is more consistently better overall.
Some secondary schools and universities in the US are world class--Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech, are examples of this, and can match any of the best in the world--but that standard isn't met by the vast majority here. And where the NA model is poor---it is really poor.
The European model stresses competence, and consistently produces more 'competence' than its NA counterpart.
I do heartily agree however, that "there is too much unearned self esteem in this land".
Also, far too much self indulgence.
Those are two big reasons why we aren't well liked by the rest of the world.
Plus, most import plants go where they can fire rotten employees w/o union grievance procedures, which are designed by their nature to keep the most worthless and useless employees on the line...
I have a question....
What benefit does the Union provide the OEMs? Lower costs? Higher Quality? Just seems like extortion to me?
Best wishes!
If building competitive, well built automobiles at a profit is a "race to the bottom", LETS GO!! I read where Toyota plants in USA, with no unions, are actually paying workers more than at Big 3 plants with their bonus and incentive plans!!
What benefit does the Union provide the OEMs? Lower costs? Higher Quality? Just seems like extortion to me?
They provide neither. I guess you need to ask your dad or grandfather how things were when working in a factory years ago before unions. When they could work you 10-12 hours a day, six or seven days a week and pay strait time at wages that would barely pay your bills. You could work for them 5-10 years and get a weeks vacation.
One thing unions has also done is raise the wages of other companies and personal. A supervisor I use to work for was all for us getting a raise and more benefits. He said what ever we got, they got a little more. Non union shops would raise their wages to keep their employees from jumping ship to union shops.
Unions aren't all good. Some times they go overboard and put the company in a bad position by demanding to much. I think the auto union has done that. But it was the unions and manufacturing that made the middle class in this country.
There's an awful lot of unearned self-importance in this land...
Some people who claim to have rights "all theirs" can have said rights removed permanently, in a split second. It will be more common in time, as the economy devolves.
That is not really true. It also behooves the Union to have workers that are competent. In my 45 years experience, management was where most of the incompetence was resting. A good manager will build a case against a lousy worker that the Union will not be able to protect. Most of the time it is personality conflicts and not actual poor workmanship that brings on a grievance. As a shop steward I was trained by the Union to weed out the frivolous grievances.
That said if I was Honda or Toyota I would not hire from a UAW region either. They will pass out Union cards and try to organize. The purpose to get better wages and benefits than the non-union auto maker provides.
The last few NLRB elections I was involved in ended with the companies out smarting the Union. They would offer big bonuses and add money to the 401K. My reaction, good for them. The company is treating the employees as they should. Without Unions we would be back to sweatshops and slave labor. It is all part of the checks and balance between the workers and the companies.
I do agree on standards for hiring. I would not hire people covered with holes and tattoos in and on their body. It is repulsive to much of the public. Not an image most companies want to put forth. A smoker does raise your health care premiums. I find no problem with drug and alcohol testing.
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Sometimes posts are made that are knowingly false, or misleading, just to stir up destructive discussions.
When it comes to higher education, the USA is supreme because it is more competitive to enter, study, & graduate.
The key word is "competitive".
If the European education was better, the countries over there would be better and they are not. No country over there has the problem of illegal immigrants trying to get in because this is where they want to be, knowing it's better.
So the rest of the world doesn't like us. Our economy and system is not running a popularity contest. We are who we are and we are the best. What does it gain us to be liked?
Feel good emotions don't count. :P
-Rocky
Actually Google it! It's knowingly True!! And even if some of their plants pay less, let the free market determine someone's value.
Oh no doubt, 100 years ago there was a need for unions, but times have changed, people are better educated etc... Now the tides have changed though, unions are the a equivalent of dinosaurs, so politically slanted, no concern for the companies they extort, all about themselves - The opposite of what JFK asked of Americans years ago.
I think it's unions destroying the middle class today. At least that's what happening in Michigan where unions are strongest.
Still my simple question remains unanswered - What do Unions do for the Big 3? What benefit do they provide to the Big 3?
If it's not transparent that the Honda folks are discriminating, along with the Republican governor of Indiana, against blacks and union workers, you've got your head in the sand. Compared to actions in other plants and startups it's even more clear here. But y'all come and buy our cars, now, ya' hear. Just don't apply to work for us.
I said that there was discrimination when the Honda planst in Ohio started up. Some probably didn't believe me. The EEOC suit in Oho is funny.
I'll bet that anyone living within the 20 county employment zone in Indiana that has a clear union history (union in the blood, I believe marsha7 called it?) won't be employed.
>Actually makes me more likely to buy a Honda.
Actually the behavior says a lot about how the Japanese feel about people in the US> We want the lesser_educated to work so they won"t figure out they"re being underpaid! B
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Heard on the news this morning that GM workers approved the contract at the 66% level; If this is correct, my 72.5% guess finished out of the money.
DQ
I think you nailed it. It can't be just a coincidence that all union-strong industries and states are dying and those not-unionized are growing and blooming.
Since union bosses largest concern is membership dues and their well-paid leaderhip jobs, their efforts will be in preserving them for long-enough time so they can comfortably retire. If the industries they are slaying are to die next day, so be it - what do they care? They will be retired already - on union pension of course, not the companies' they destroy. And I would not be very surprised if those union pension fun managers were not investing in union-run industries. They know better...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Europeans are struggling with grade inflation and meaningless degrees, too. For example, my cousins in Germany keep going back to the university for yet another degree, paid for by the government, but never seem to get a real job.
Plus, American schools are better at nurturing and encouraging students with a more entrepreneurial bent.
American schools have struggled with educating the poor and minorities. Now European schools are now struggling with the same set of challenges, as shown by the recent riots in France, as well as problems with assimilating immigrants from the Middle East in Germany and England.
silverfox: Some secondary schools and universities in the US are world class--Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech, are examples of this, and can match any of the best in the world--but that standard isn't met by the vast majority here.
The majority of European universities are not world-class, either.
silverfox: I say "on average' because it is more consistently better overall.
They are both about the same, based on real-world (not test) results. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.
We divine how an entire nation feels about America workers based on the (alleged) actions of one company regarding one set of American workers?
Honda (and Toyota) want a MORE educated worker in their plants than the typical UAW member. Under their system, workers are expected to assume responsibility for quality and take proactive steps if something is wrong (i.e, stop the line if there is a quality problem).
A worker has labored under the "that's-not-my-job" union mentality and "the-line-keeps-running-no-matter-what" management attitude would not be considered a desirable candidate.
Japanese automobile companies have typically been much more selective in their hiring than American companies have been.
As for being "underpaid" - if the workers don't like the pay, they don't have to work at any Honda operation. They are free to seek higher pay at another plant, if they believe that their skill set will garner them more in wages and benefits.
I once toiled for Boeing making airplanes and now work in the Allied Health field. I am making more money in healthcare but my benefits are a tad worse so the money is close to my 2003 Boeing employee compensation. But working right in the field I see how much we charge people for our hospital services. All I can say is "Yikes!"
Although it may seem militaristic and harsh and "against our rights" I can see the smarts in discriminating against tobacco or alcohol or tobacco chewers or overeaters(gross overeaters) when making a hiring decision. In this manner companies can start fighting back against huge healthcare costs, loss of service to them because of time off for medical emergencies, etc. It is a direct way that companies can address what Hillary and Bill discussed they would attempt to overhaul in 1993.
Managers and lawyers and guns and money(what a song, Mr.Warren Zevon!)will pave this issue more clearly(or frustratingly!)for all of us in the coming years and groups like the ACLU will fight it. But it's merits must be considered in light of health care costs dragging down profits and employees bad habits effects on productivity.
The merit is there!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'm all for people having the right to choose their eating, smoking, drinking and exercise (or lack thereof) habits. But I also believe that they can pay for the negative consequences that may arise from those choices.
It's a very sticky problem, and not one that only affects the automobile industry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's not like you are looking forward to buy a Honda anyway.
By the way, I would love to see the outcome of that multi-billion dollar discrimination law suit that you are going to file against Honda. Hopefully through that Honda will re-enforce its belief that stay away from UAW is a really really good idea...
Suffice to say, believe what you wish, but there are numerous international comparison studies of both US and European educational systems
I'll only cite a few key statistics here.
USA Ranking on Adult Literacy Scale: #9
(#1 Sweden and #2 Norway)- OECD
USA Ranking of Student Reading Ability: #12
(#1 Finland and #2 South Korea)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking of Student Problem Solving Ability: #26
(#1 South Korea and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking on Student Mathematics Ability: # 24
(#1 Hong Kong and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003
USA Ranking of Student Science Ability: #19
(#1 Finland and #2 Japan)- OECD PISA 2005
USA Ranking on Journalistic Press Freedom Index: #32
(#1 Finland, Iceland, Norway and the Netherlands tied)- Reporters Without Borders 2005
USA Ranking on Quality of Life Survey: #13
(#1 Ireland and #2 Switzerland)- The Economist Magazine ...Wikipedia "Celtic Tiger" if you still have your doubts.
USA Ranking on Environmental Sustainability Index: #45
(#1 Finland and #2 Norway)- Yale University ESI 2005
USA Ranking on Overall Currency Strength: #3 (US Dollar)
(#1 UK pound sterling and #2 European Union euro)- FTSE 2006....the dollar is now a liability, so many banks worldwide have planned to switch to euro
USA Ranking on Human Development Index (GDP, education, etc.): #10
(#1 Norway and #2 Iceland)- UN Human Development Report 2005
Miscellany: New international student enrollment in US grad schools has decreased by 6%, because of xenophobic post-9/11 US visa restrictions, jacked-up tuition fees and better educational opportunities in the EU and Asia. So no, not everyone wants to come here anymore, because it's become a land of incredibly limited opportunity, and we've lowered our educational standards.
Personally, I would agree we are quite capable of doing better.
We have the capability, but do we have the will to make that happen?
That's where I think we have a problem.
They never cite that teachers in Japan are paid as professionals and have much time and freedom in preparing for their classwork along with a high respect level.
They never cite that students in Japan don't go to homes where Monday night football is favored by an overweight couch potato who sits on the counch and knows everything the counch should have done, etc., over Monday night studying for future tests and for learning in a subject.
People are selective about which fact--almost like politicians who play on the fact that most people are naive about things and will hear whatever 5-second soundbite sounds best and vote for that image the politician displays.
We need to do testing and compare about how our county picks their politicians. That will be much more productive.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I came to this country when I was 13 (8th grade) and I didn't learn a new thing in my math class until I was in the 11th grade (pre-cal).
Amazing. No?
On the other hand, when comes to higher education (college and beyond), that's where the US shines. I think this is because under our education system we promote the idea of being a "free thinker". A person who can think and develop logic by himself can be more successful once encounter with tougher and more complicated problems in college or grad school. Asian education system "stuff" knowledge into a person's brain rather than make them understand "why". This method works well back in secondary schools but unfortunately restricts a person's development afterward.
I wouldn't mind saying that US' education system is design for the elitist but ultimately this is better for the country's overall competitiveness. If I have to choose I'll choose ours over other countries'.
Those are what is important. And our students handle themselves as well as any European student.
There are lots of people who score well on tests, and fail in the real world.
As for your other rankings - environmental sustainability, quality of life...? Sounds like surveys with loaded questions to get the rankings that the surveyors wanted.
Ireland has a higher quality of life than the U.S.? Having been there, I can say that it is a wonderful country, but it isn't really "better" than the U.S.
Finland and Norway rank higher on the environmental sustainability index than the U.S.? When those countries have large geographic areas that require heating and cooling for all buildings at different parts of the year (as the northeastern U.S. does), or are unbearable without air conditioning for several months of the year (southern U.S.), let me know.
Ireland and Switzerland are hardly hellholes, but compared to the U.S., it's a case of six of one, a half-dozen of the other. They both have their strengths, although I note than neither Ireland or Switzerland admits large numbers of immigrants from a completely foreign culture (Eastern Europe doesn't count as a "completely foreign culture"). Wonder how that would affect their "rankings"...
Perhaps Ireland and Switzerland are simply smarter for not being misled into unsustainable immigration (unlike France and Germany, not to mention others). Should one nation seek to handicap itself, others should not have to compensate.