United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

dino001

But there was 6 years of turbocharged growth, plust another 10 years before then. Plenty of time to make some savings, so times like today are not as scary. Just consume less when times are good and when times get bet you can consume about the same.

I'm not trying to downplay health insurance. It is a problem, big one. But still vast majority of people with jobs have health insurance, too.

I do also believe a lot of people got into bankrupcy because of events beyond their control. But more actually had plenty of opportunities to hedge themselves in many different ways (save more, consume less, etc.) - and they didn't. That's all I can say.

wrs4

Trouble is JA will buy it.

dino001

$850 is still a lot of money if you biweekly take home paycheck is $1500 or so ($50K after all deductions). Yes, it's not a fortune, but if you have no savings, you have no business buying that TV, yet - even if it's 50% off and all your neighbors and coworkers have one.

gagrice

Would it have been illegal for Ford, GM and Chrysler to coordinate and lock down all their facitlities whenever one company was struck by the UAW? Or, was it mainly self-interest of the 2 non-struck companies to keep their production going?

I think it was self interest. When the Union struck Safeway/Vons here in CA, both Albertson's and Ralphs locked out the Union workers and started hiring non union people to take their place. The Unions got less than initially offered after a very long strike. GM should have locked out the UAW when they went on strike in 1998. They did not and have gone down hill ever since.

andre1969

But there was 6 years of turbocharged growth, plust another 10 years before then. Plenty of time to make some savings, so times like today are not as scare. Just consume less when times are good and when times get bet you can consume about the same.

I think the problem here is the human mindset in general. We tend to forget the past too easily, and once things get into a set pattern, we think it'll go on that way forever. So when the economy is doing well, we think it'll keep on doing it, forgetting that everything is cyclical, with bubbles and bursts. Similarly, when the economy starts to tank, and you keep seeing your net worth fall week after week, it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This is why in investing, so many people end up inadvertently buying high and selling low. Instead of going for consistency and the long haul, they tend to get in at the peak, thinking the prosperity will go on forever. And then when the market starts to tank, they sell at a loss, subconsciously fearing that if they stay in, their investment will tank all the way to zero.

I seem to recall some study done that in general, if you lose $20, but then find $20 lying on the street the next day, you're still going to be bummed about it because psychologically, losing that $20 "hurts" more than finding the $20 "helps". Even though in reality, you're back where you started.

Emotions can be tricky things.

marsha7

You do have valid points, no doubt...some things ARE due to situations we cannot control...but I stand firm on my point that many have just lived beyond their means on credit, because they "had" to have the things their neighbors had, often including the house they simply could not afford from day one...like it or not, it is true...

lemko: "I got this one co-worker who's alway bragging about her $2,500 handbag. She thinks we're impressed. We think she's an idiot."...berri, this may be one person, but it makes my point...not everybody needs a handbag from Hermes, Coach, Dooney & Burke, or a $2000 alligator wallet from Hugo Bosca, or the AMG version of the Benz, but folks buy that stuff, and I would doubt they pay cash...

For those who are victims of circumstance they cannot control, I feel for them...but don't even TRY to tell me that the majority of the economic distress was caused by prudent people who are innocent victims...it was caused by people who did not know how to put away their credit cards, and had to have all the latest goodies...

Just the sheer number of people who waited in line OVERNIGHT for the $600 iPhone, just to be the first on their block, ought to tell you why we are in trouble...do we have to worry about civil unrest because they have to downgrade to an ordinary $590 flip phone???...do they really NEED mobile web, texting, data programs, etc???...can't they go 8 hours before they check email at home???

Nobody takes the time to literally STEP BACK and look at what we have done to ourselves, nobody did it TO us...why not the $40 monthly phone plan with 700 minutes instead of 5000???...why not the used DTS for $30K instead of the $70K AMG 6.5?...why do you think that every gadget you have you cannot live without, especially if you bought it on credit???

dino001

No argument there. Of course, still doen't excuse us from taking responsibility for what we do or not do. Explains - yes, excuses - no.

lokki

"The globalization ripoff started under Nixon,,,,"

Uhm, sorry - globalization had already started by 3500 B.C.

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_ancient_trade_routes_mesopotamia.html-

And the economy was already globalized by the year 1 A.D.

"[B]y the beginning of the first century A.D., merchants, diplomats, and travelers could (in theory) cross the ancient world from Britain and Spain in the west to China and Japan in the east. The trade routes served principally to transfer raw materials, foodstuffs, and luxury goods from areas with surpluses to others where they were in short supply. Some areas had a monopoly on certain materials or goods. China, for example, supplied West Asia and the Mediterranean world with silk, while spices were obtained principally from South Asia."

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/trade/hd_trade.htm

mrsixpack

Well Chrysler Group is 55% owned by the United Auto Workers union so now its up to them ! I can't see them going on strike again because they would be striking themselfs ! If Chrysler now fails or any UNION shops get closed.....who they going to blame but themselfs ?

This is going to be so much fun to watch !

berri

but don't even TRY to tell me that the majority of the economic distress was caused by prudent people who are innocent victims

No doubt some personal and corporate bankruptcies were caused by dumb decisions, some dumb luck. Either way though, this is a small percentage of the problem. As an attorney I'm sure you are aware of the massive amount of financial fraud and malfeasance being uncovered. Bankers and brokers were spinning info on inadequate borrowers so they could get their commisons, then selling it off to incompetent Fannie Mae for the taxpayers to absorb. Quant heads on Wall Street were using "formula's" without adequate qualitative analysis to market these messes into derivatives. The real issue as usual was herd mentality and greed, whether aspirational greed by consumers or financial greed by business. I'm sure you know from your clients that many people are not very sophisticated in business matters. Ultimately they are responsible for their actions, but in many cases they were also duped either unethically or illegally. The blame spreads as widely as manure on a corn field.

marsha7

"As an attorney I'm sure you are aware of the massive amount of financial fraud and malfeasance being uncovered."...

I cannot dispute that, and I must agree with you...

While not making excuses for anyone, we still must act like adults...when someone filled out a "no income verification" mortgage app, and filled in an amount must larger than they earn, they MUST take responsibility for their misdeeds (ahem, lying)...yes, a lousy banker or mortgage broker told them it would be approved, but the borrower must still be sufficiently conscious to know that if they can barely pay $900 a month for rent, how can they pay $1500 a month for a mortgage???...IMO, a crooked banker can't FORCE you to sign on the dotted line, you must be responsible enough to know what you can afford...at least you should know how much monthly payment you can make...

For all the bad bankers and bad brokers, I just have this stubborn belief that people should be able to handle their finances...frankly, if you dispute me on that, then you are simply making the argument that people are unqualified for a checking acoount, credit card, car loan, jewelry loan, furniture loan, etc...either they can manage their affairs or they can't...

Now for those who lived within their means and simply lost a job, or became severely ill, that is a different story...those ARE circumstances beyond their control...

berri

IMO, a crooked banker can't FORCE you to sign on the dotted line

Agreed, except there are more and more situations coming to front where the bankers and brokers didn't fully, or at least adequately disclose. You can't expect everyone to be able to read and comprehend some of those mortgage documents and their financial and legal unique language. They are not all lawyers or MBA's. There are also situations where the banker or broker mislead people by only discussing the potential positives. It is simply inexcusable and unethical for bankers to be duping old lady widows into financing the home they already own. Many of these older people grew up trusting their institutions like banks. We need to tighten the disclosure rules and start sending crooked bankers to the state pen along with bank robbers. What is the difference?

circlew

but my girlfriend lives under this delusion that I'm rich.

Well, after all, your the owner of a Cadillac! Ya gotta be richer than them there UAW's!

Regards,
OW

circlew

Agree with you. Fiscal responsibility will beat the Jones every time. $50K is more than enough to live rather well. Just don't mortgage your future and spend less than you make.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Well, ain't that thepot calling the kettle black!

"Unions are political organizations, and since retirees don't vote, if they don't get paid it won't be the end of the UAW or its leadership."

Like a said, it morphed into a new Ponzi Scheme Club. Join at your own risk!!

Regards,
OW

circlew

Actually, my best sport is to shop the LCD/Plasma just to watch the prices drop. The knuckleheads that buy the first out electronics keep getting burned and it's laughable. I still have a tube TV and a small 19" LCD I got for free by switching to FIOS. Look at the Iphone...price dropped to $99 when the new one came out this week!

Will they ever really learn?

A $500 stove cooks just as good as a $6,000 Viking.

Regards,
OW

cooterbfd

"The middle class will have NO TROUBLE if it simply lives in the middle class...the problem was that they overextended themselves by faking the upper class when they leased Mercedes they could not afford (Buick wasn't good enough, it had to be a Benz), bought houses with subprime mortgages they could not afford (2000 sq ft wasn't good enough, it had to be 4500 sq ft on a lake), bought Sub Xero refrigerators they could not afford (Kenmore wasn't good enough) and so on and so on..."

On this, I will agree, as Mercedes, Sub Zero, Abercrombie & Fitch, etc. set their prices (just like Kenmore or Buick) and we can take it or leave it, and they could adjust their prices to OUR demands if we left it.

As for the housing market, I too agree about the McMansion mentality (whatever happened to buying a 1500 sq ft Ranch now, and improving the proporty as you can afford it???).

But I think there is one glitch in this; deed restrictions. I can't tell you the number of developments I've seen where you wouldn't be allowed to purchase the land unless you were to build a house of a certain size or style, so the entire development "conformed".

Problem is, because these houses were selling for $400, 500, 600 thousand or more, the person with a 1500 sq ft ranch is told by the RE agent that he can now fetch $300,000 for his $200,000 house. In turn the $800/month apartment was now "worth" $1200. All that upward pressure in RE prices was felt by everyone, as you MUST have a roof over your head, but you don't "NEED" the high priced car.

marsha7

No doubt you must have a roof over your head, but my only answer to your proposed situation is this: find another subdivision...deed restrictions are a poor answer to asking someone, "why did you buy a home you could never afford?"...because it was in a subdivision that I liked???

roadburner

Actually, my best sport is to shop the LCD/Plasma just to watch the prices drop.

Procrastination sure paid off for me; I managed to score a Pioneer Kuro Elite for 50% off MSRP...

roadburner

The new GM chairman should feel right at home; today he admitted that “I don’t know anything about cars.”

gagrice

Good chance your new GM car will be equipped with an AT&T phone.

dave8697

The UAW put on some nice antique car shows in Anderson back in the day. What factory job these days lets you afford a collectors car and a nice boat.

tlong

The new GM chairman should feel right at home; today he admitted that “I don’t know anything about cars.”

Well, Mulally did not have car experience. Wagoner did. So perhaps this is progress. :shades:

dave8697

Your exception of the lower income people getting a break on taxes only applies to federal income taxes.

My state wants 4.65% OF EVERYTHING I earn, including the rent I get mailed to me from Florida and my 0.8% CD interest. Soc sec drops off at over about $105k. Florida wants 3% of the value of the rental house in property taxes each year. Indianapolis and surrounding counties get 9% sales tax on restaurant food and 7-8% sales tax on everything else. Car excise taxes are about $300-400 a year. This year they invented a $25 tire tax. Alcohol and cig taxes...As far as gas goes, I gotta gross $5 to buy one gallon at $2.89, and over $4 of the $5 goes to taxes, eventually, and as soon as they get Obama to understand that the gov is the big tax collector on fuels, he will be in with big oil too.

In a % of gross income comparison, the little guy making $75k at a job pays enough to make the $750k earner very happy to net near half a $Million. And the $75k guy gets no help to put his kids thru college. The $40k family gets lots of free financial aid and the $750k family has to be able to make like the $75k family and pay their own way in full, only on 10 times the income.

I have seen the 10 guys who get beer together joke. Federal taxes only.

tlong

"Can I get the UAW deal?

In exchange for my tax dough and future being pi@@ed away i would like to get 55% ownership in Federal Land. Oh - and as a sweetener, toss in a few billion to wash away my bad decisions to date."

tlong

Your exception of the lower income people getting a break on taxes only applies to federal income taxes.

Well in MY state (the most populous in the union), we pay a *progressive* income tax, just like our Federal taxes.

Most people who earn under $40K/year pay no federal income taxes at all.
Agreed that SS, Medicare, sales tax are regressive.

In a % of gross income comparison, the little guy making $75k at a job pays enough to make the $750k earner very happy to net near half a $Million. And the $75k guy gets no help to put his kids thru college. The $40k family gets lots of free financial aid and the $750k family has to be able to make like the $75k family and pay their own way in full, only on 10 times the income.

Ahh, the eternal debate. Put too much progressive tax and you kill of business, which can drop overall income. Too flat and it penalizes the poorer. Lots of arguments on both sides. But of course in the example you cite, many of the $75K earners have big screen TVs, 2-3 cars, boats, take vacations every year, etc. To Marsha's point, are we also living well beyond our means?

chetj

i read that GM paid over 50 million to the bloodsucking lawyers during bankruptcy...lawyers charged between 150 and 750$ a hour...and you think the uaw is overpaid? no offense....where is rocky, he was The Man in this forum

circlew

Best TV on the market...my neighbor sold them for 50% off but I resisted still.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Perfect choice...that and the UAW sticker are a great sign things won't change much.

Regards,
OW

marsha7

I agree with you...when I see $500/hour I think that is ridiculous...

marsha7

Rocky left because we made too much sense, and it went against everything he had been taught since he was born...all he knew was UAW and never could see it from the outside...he will be missed, and I hope all works out from the "Beth" side for him, as he has been thru enough on the "domestic" front...

xrunner2

Interesting Fortune article. Did not realize that UAW cannot strike until 2015,

Also, wonder what will happen with 2000+ page contract with GM and other carmakers. Being union can hopefully more clearly see they are a key stakeholder, will they whittle down ponderous work rules, encourage their employees to be more flexible.

lemko

That reminds me of a commercial that looks like an ad for an expensive watch. They show this adventurer going through the rapids in a kayak and the announcer says, "What would you do with such a watch? I guess you would just tell time! That $6,000 watch could cost you $30,000 in investment income over time!"

Funny. I wear a Pulsar watch I purchased at Caldor, (remember them?) for $32 in 1992 and it still keeps excellent time.

andre1969

No doubt you must have a roof over your head, but my only answer to your proposed situation is this: find another subdivision...deed restrictions are a poor answer to asking someone, "why did you buy a home you could never afford?"...because it was in a subdivision that I liked???

Well in my area, if you wanted a new, single family home, McMansions are pretty much the only game in town. Anything smaller, you're going with a townhouse or condo if you want new. Or an older home if you want to stay single-family and semi-affordable. And even that wasn't a given, because the McMansions were jacking up the prices of surrounding neighborhoods, to the point that it was starting to turn once-affordable homes into teardown specials where the only value was in the land.

Honestly though, the way they're piling these houses up on top of each other, they might as well be townhouses!

Personally, I've tried the condo thing. And to quote Katie Scarlett O'Hara from Gone with the Wind.... "As God as my witness, I'll NEVER live in multi-family housing again!!" :P Oh, and in that vein, the model home in one of the McMansion neighborhoods is named, pompously enough, The Tara.

gagrice

Funny. I wear a Pulsar watch I purchased at Caldor, (remember them?) for $32 in 1992

I can top that. I found a Seiko Dive Watch back in the 80s on the beach in Kona. It kept perfect time for me over the years and my son wanted it a couple years ago, now he wears it. Gets a new battery about every 5 years.

Don't try that with a UAW built watch.

circlew

You can't take this stuff personally. When you do, your TOAST.

UAW is dying. It's a cycle. Perhaps a different organized form of labor will emerge when the new National Health Care system emerges.

We need to stop politicking and start taking care of each other instead of seeking the highest pay.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Yep, C7 in 1999....Same watch would'a cost you $28 in Wal-Mart! :sick:

Regards,
OW

marsha7

"Well in my area, if you wanted a new, single family home, McMansions are pretty much the only game in town. Anything smaller, you're going with a townhouse or condo if you want new"...maybe I am missing your point, or you are missing mine...

If McMansions are the only game in town, and you cannot afford it, then you have to change towns...it IS that simple...I don't care if Grandma lives down the street or you can't be more than a mile from Mommy, if you can't afford it, you have to walk away...don't forget, if you cannot afford it, they will foreclose and take it, and guess what???...YOU WILL LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

So why not do the smart thing, live somewhere else NOW, something you can afford, and get on with your life...

Everyone who "justifies" buying too much home because "that's all there is" seems to forget that you have no divine right to live in any given neighborhood...if it costs too much, then it costs too much...be an adult, live within your means, and don't buy what you can't afford...there is NO response out there that can justify buying more than your paycheck can afford, and that is what millions did...they had no right to buy them, and they sure as hell have no right to keep them...

Empty neighborhoods are the result of stupid people making stupid decisions with money they never had...

stever

I found my Timex on the beach in Carmel in 1969. I never wear a watch, but it still was working a couple of years ago.

Xrunner2, re the no-strike clause. I think that just means the UAW can't legally strike until 2015.

"A recent economic study by Dr. Anne Layne-Farrar reveals that every three percentage points gained in union membership through card checks and mandatory arbitration would result in a one percentage point rise in the unemployment the following year."

Opinion from the Detroit Free Press.

fintail

I bought a cool looking Timex Dynabeat (electro-mechanical - predates quartz) at an estate sale about 5 years ago for a quarter. Put a battery in it and it fired right up, I wear it every day. It's even a minor collectible now, and gets as many compliments as a much more expensive item no doubt.

I doubt it was union made, though

marsha7

Timex...takes a licking and keeps on ticking...

I still have a Spiro Agnew watch in mint condition...I wonder if it has any value...I know Spiro Agnew has no value, but what about the watch???

Oh I almost ran off topic, but, I am sure, in its day, that some UAW members probably wore their Agnew watches to work, even tho they are overpaid and unskilled...the workers, not the watches...

fezo

A Spiro Agnew watch? That's a new one one me.

I'd have taken you for a Dick Cheney watch... Fires right up....

I have a couple of watches in the house but the main one is a $30 Timex I've had at least 15 years. Has an alarm and a light up feature called Indiglo. I've worn it everywhere including the ocean. I've replaced that battery twice and the strap twice - only because the second strap was velcro and didn't hold up to the abuse. Sadly, unlike its predecessors it was not made in Connecticut but rather the Philippines...

dave8697

2008 saw $10.9 Trillion of America's wealth dissappear.

I had to convert that American wealth loss into potential lost GM sales.

The answer is 109 years of GM losing 40% of it's annual vehicle sales revenue!

Yet there are those who believe GM sales drops or market share losses of any amount represent a severe lack of quality.

A lot of posts about how people do not NEED new cars. Maybe some people cut back because they lost wealth.

A trillion is a thousand billions.

dave8697

Congress trying to limit CEO pay to 100 times that of lowest paid worker at companies. Min wage soon to be $7.25 an hour. That limits CEO pay to $725 an hour. Lawyers working the BK get that. $1,508,000 per year. $87,000 for the 3 weeks of vacation. Where could you go if you only had $87,000 to spend on your 3 week vacation?

roadburner

Congress trying to limit CEO pay to 100 times that of lowest paid worker at companies.

Welcome to 1984.

Ja, ve vill tell you how much you can make.
Ve are your government.
Ve are here to help you. :sick:

tlong

Government wants to limit executive salaries IF your company is receiving major government loan assistance (like the banks and auto companies).

It works for me.

Company is free to NOT receive the government $$ and they can pay executives whatever they want. :shades:

gagrice

So if the janitor is making $35 per hour the CEO gets $3,500 per hour or $7,280,000 per year. I think I could live on that OK. You forget the starting pay for a UAW unskilled monkey putting on lug nuts is $15 per hour. Twice minimum wage.

mrsixpack

With the UAW union now owning 55% of the Chrysler Group, how can they be trusted or allowed to represent the union workers at Ford and GM ? I think thats called a conflict of interest !!!!!!!!!!

roadburner

Government wants to limit executive salaries IF your company is receiving major government loan assistance (like the banks and auto companies).

That's not what concerns me- what raised my hackles is this story:
The Obama administration plans to seek legislation that would try to rein in compensation at publicly traded companies through nonbinding shareholder votes and by decreasing management influence on pay decisions.

tlong

Agree about the concerns. It appears to me that they are trying to strengthen the regulatory environment around excessive pay, and to strengthen the shareholder's voices in the situation vs. the management (foxes in henhouse). Given that the previous situation has demonstrably created an economy that has threatened the entire country, I'm willing to suspend some of my concerns about too much regulatory structure, as the alternative has already occurred and it has been a disaster.

So how would executive pay limitations affect the UAW and it's significant ownership in the D2? :P