United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Just ridiculous. That is EXACTLY only one reason Unions are not effective. There are many other inconsistencies that add up to incompetence because they are barriers to improvement for both the workers and the business.

    There are inconsistencies on the management side as well.

    Someday, there will be balance that is a perfect blend of win-win for every stakeholder. That can't happen until greed is eradicated. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "The legal profession infiltrates the state governments and sets up the rules to mandate everything be done by attorneys that could be done by an individual to guarantee jobs for life. The legal.zoom websites must be giving them fits."

    I often wonder about that...I certainly believe that it's a good thing for citizens to do some of their own legal work, if it is simple filing of forms (deeds, corporations, etc.)...they can do anything they want, really, unlike the people in the union shop who go nuts if the union man isn't there to turn off the leaking water...but remember one thing...feel free to do it yourself, but if you screw it up and need to hire an attorney to "un-screw it", don't be surprised if we charge a healthy fee, first to undo what YOU did, and then to re-do it correctly...I am not your teacher to look over your shoulder like in first grade... ;);)

    circlew: "The UAW may have played a role in Detroit’s decline, but now it has an opportunity to play a role in its potential comeback."...this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard...the union deserves not one whit of credit if anything goes right...so, they take the last 25 years and run the compnay into the ground, with lousy quality, stupid work rules, and poor workmanship (I won't even add the drunk, drugged and stupid), and now that they have agreed to alter a few work rules, THEY get credit for "bringing the carmakers back???"...that is like me throwing you overboard in the ocean, and, just before you drown, throw you a life preserver and you come out of the water thanking me for saving your life...I was the one who almost ended it, and I certainly don't deserve credit for saving it...

    In my little town, we are surrounded by other little towns, and each town has its own little newspaper...reading the Letters to the Editor sections, you would be amazed at the people who, after seeing their tax dollars go to the Big 2, and finally understanding what the UAW has done, write in and say how they will never buy a GM or Chrysler car again (I am sure if they give it time Ford will be on their list, too)...they are only one writer here and one writer there, but I wonder what the unsaid opinion of the masses is out there...

    Remember, the Big 3 took about 25 years to drive away (no pun) buyers, ONE BY ONE, to Toyota, Honda and Nissan, until the point came that the Big 3 had less than a 50% market share, down from about 85% years ago...that steady drip, drip, drip needed enough time to take its full effect, but it did bankruptcy 2 of the Big 3...

    It won't take much to simply turn their Chapter 11s into Chapter 7s and liquidate the companies, simply because no one buys the product...the curtain has been removed from the Wizard...they can fire the management and it won't do a thing, there are so few of them...now that the people know what the UAW is, what it does, and what it has done, they may desert the Big 3 forever...

    Like it or not, even the billionaire lemko cannot buy enough Caddys to keep GM afloat... :P ;) :shades:
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,378
    My first exposure to the Union mentality was the spouse of a coworker. She told me that her husband (an accountant) could not carry a 3 inch stack of computer printouts to another floor in the building. A union person had to be called or a union grievance would be filed. Carrying that paper would endanger the union job. That's when I first realized how stupid and damaging the union environment was to this country.

    Talk to some of the automobile PR folks about dealing with unions at Cobo Hall for the Detroit Auto Show. Need to plug in a light fixture? Wait for the IBEW "electrician", and so on.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,378
    It won't take much to simply turn their Chapter 11s into Chapter 7s and liquidate the companies, simply because no one buys the product...the curtain has been removed from the Wizard...they can fire the management and it won't do a thing, there are so few of them...now that the people know what the UAW is, what it does, and what it has done, they may desert the Big 3 forever...

    That's my fervent wish as well, but I think that the Obamessiah and his Democratic acolytes will do their utmost to prop the "Big" 2.1 up, regardless of their free market viability. See George Will's column Have We got a Deal For You; Will's closing paragraphs sum up the matter perfectly:

    Washington's "rescue" of GM began because GM is "too big to fail," and bankruptcy is (well, was) "unthinkable." Big? GM's market capitalization, $375.8 million on Wednesday, is about the size of California Pizza Kitchen's ($340 million) -- is it too big to fail? -- and one-eleventh that of Harley-Davidson ($4.3 billion). Fail? If GM has not already failed, New Coke was a success.

    The administration is determined to prop up GM as a jobs program for the UAW and Midwestern states rich in electoral votes. This frenzy will intensify as the administration's decisions deepen the debacle.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Just you show me an employee who abuses the attendance system and you most certainly will see him or her lose their job, arbitration or no arbitation. It an insult to intelligent folks intelligence that these myths continue.

    At my company, just that situation existed not too many years ago. A number of assembly line workers, represented by IBEW, were habitually absent from work 1) every Friday between June and Sept, and 2) missed every Monday during the NFL season. Maybe not the same person in both instances, but you catch my drift. HR made a big to do about it and was going to implement a new attendance tracking/discipline system when somebody pointed out that they already had the rules and procedures in place for handling such cases - they just weren't being followed by management. So, the new rules were never implemented. WE never heard anything more about it.

    So yes, in this case the myth was based on reality.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    She told me that her husband (an accountant) could not carry a 3 inch stack of computer printouts to another floor in the building. A union person had to be called or a union grievance would be filed. Carrying that paper would endanger the union job. That's when I first realized how stupid and damaging the union environment was to this country.

    I had a similar experience, which probably helped sour me on unions. I had a grievance filed against me by some snot of a union rep when I carried a piece of equipment (that I designed) from one area to another. Said that job was reserved for an expediter class 3, level 2, whatever that was.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    when somebody pointed out that they already had the rules and procedures in place for handling such cases - they just weren't being followed by management

    Thats exactly the issue. A grievance is a violation of the contract. The very contract signed by management. You should look at the grievance as a speeding ticket and or other violation, to be argued by the UAW (union) and labor relations (management).

    So if management entered into the agreement, of their own free will, they must live up to the requirements. The same holds true for unions. The progressive disciplinary process and the greivance process are part of any good contract. Don't worry about the company, they have very compentent and able legal advise.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    I'm merely pointing out the obvious:

    Eons ago, when Sears was the top retailer, they were in fact full time jobs. These jobs had benefits, including profit sharing. Sears was forced to buy out the old employees to bring in the part time folks. You need to take a good look at what the Walmart employees drive. Draw your own conclusions. Is this what America is to become? We need to avoid the sure mass revolt that will come. You speak as if the UAW is the only worker under attack.

    This only stands to reason.

    Now that the boilerplate and grandiose promises of last the global poverty summit are history, the governments involved should remember the Hippocratic Oath’s advice for physicians: First, do no harm. For even if foreign aid bureaucrats knew how to cure poverty (which they don’t) and ostensibly undercut terrorism’s appeal, their efforts would be nullified by the breakneck trade and investment expansion that their governments keep pushing. The dangers created by these policies are aptly described by the phrase “the race to the bottom.”

    Today’s version of globalization is portrayed as the ultimate anti-poverty weapon because it promises to raise worldwide living standards by using free market forces. Indeed, this version of globalization foresees turning the third world’s poverty-stricken masses into robust consumers. Therefore, rather than representing competitors for workers in the wealthy countries, they will become customers.

    The ideas and observations behind “the race to the bottom” explain why this thinking is pie-in-the-sky. Specifically, as precious investment capital becomes free to roam the world in search of the lowest costs, the greatest efficiencies, and the highest rates of return, governments everywhere will feel powerful pressure to lure that capital by offering the cheapest workers and the weakest regulations protecting health, safety, and the environment.

    Further, much of this foreign investment has been redirected from China’s more expensive neighbors – South Korea, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia. The latter two countries, of course, are slated to receive big aid packages and trade breaks due to Al Qaeda penetration of their Moslem populations. Yet here’s the race-to-the-bottom kicker: In Wonacott’s words, “As other countries feel pressure to match China’s low wages, there’s a risk that wage stagnation will spread to Malaysia, Mexico and elsewhere.”

    Hopefully America’s hard-pressed workers won’t have to turn to bomb-throwing themselves before the nation’s chattering classes address their plight.


    http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=403
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    You only see the one side of "sentimentality" in losing M&P, dallasdude, you apparently conveniently ignore the true economic benefit of the opposite side

    I would suggest that you are only a pencil pusher and the sum total of your work can be replaced by a more productive Chindian. You just don't realize that your in the same boat as that UAW employee. Its one thing to replace mail persons, realtors and others by the internet. These have and do occur in a society as technology makes progress. Where are all of the draftsmen, file clerks, and so forth? However, these displaced folks will look elsewhere for opportunity. The labor market of displaced folks will also grow by those displaced by job export and no one can rationally think that they can all be absorbed. So don't assume that your lot in life isn't too far from that mom n pop. Sooner or later they will come for you.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Eons ago, when Sears was the top retailer, they were in fact full time jobs. These jobs had benefits, including profit sharing.

    But Sears hasn't been the top retailer since the 1970s, when it lost its vision & began to stumble - much like General Motors.

    Even before then, the big discount chains of the day - Kmart, E.J. Korvettes, Caldor, etc. - were eating into Sears' customer base & profits, weakening the company's ability to pay those benefits.

    Sears was in trouble long before Walmart became a retailing force.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I would suggest that you are only a pencil pusher and the sum total of your work can be replaced by a more productive Chindian.

    Calm down, big fella! Nothing good on TV down there?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    The individual person has to decide if a job is worth the hassle. No matter what level you are at. I do not think there is such a thing as a perfect job or workplace. At least I did not find it in 46 years

    I guess I'm one of those lucky ones then. I've been with the same company almost 41 years now, which includes a 2 year hiatus with a local AT&T branch. We design and build high-tech products for our nation's defense, including fire-control and mapping radars and other sensors. What's kept the job interesting is that the technology is ever changing, as is the mission. The technology I apply today was not even a dream in someone's mind when I started. I have a lot of flexibility in my job - one being able to chose I the programs I work on. Plus, there's little chance of my job being outsourced to India ;). So for me, it's been the perfect fit.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,040
    At my company, just that situation existed not too many years ago. A number of assembly line workers, represented by IBEW, were habitually absent from work 1) every Friday between June and Sept, and 2) missed every Monday during the NFL season.

    Heck, those time/attendance policies get abused everywhere, it seems. Back in the 1990's, we had this lady who worked in the office next door. Her hours were supposed to be 8:30-5:15, with a 45 minute lunch. Well, it was rare to see her before 9:00. She'd often take a 3 hour lunch. Our supervisor went home at 4, and she would look out the window, watch his truck leave the parking lot, and then be out the door herself!

    This went on for YEARS! And would have gone on for years more, except that she raised enough of a fuss about other things (she practically got away with murder, but that wasn't enough for her), so upper management pulled a little trick on her. Offered her a job at our headquarters building. She thought she was getting a promotion, but they really did this to keep an eye on her, so that they could catch her first-hand at her antics. Whenever our supervisor complained, it always degenerated into a he said/she said type of thing, and nothing got done.

    Well, in her new position, the second or third time she went on one of those three hour tours she called a lunch, when she got back management told her to clean out her desk and go home...she's fired!

    Which really was a sigh of relief. More often than not, around here, if they want to get rid of you they just promote you to another project! That gets you out of the hair of the people you're currently annoying, and buys you a few more years to aggravate your new customers and coworkers, and let the cycle perpetuate.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Abuse is not limited to Union workers or the UAW we love to blast.

    In the course of our investigating company finances for an upcoming contract negotiation we found some very damning evidence against our general manager. He took someone or some group to lunch every day. You know the two martini lunches management loves. This in itself could be charged to discussing the phone business. However he would get a receipt from the restaurant and put it on a BER ( business expense report). That also seemed somewhat innocent. Except he charged the meals on the company AMEX Card. We were able to get the documents that proved what was happening. We took it to a board member that we thought was honest and had the Telephone Cooperative's best interest in mind. Big mistake. My partner and I were given the crappy jobs for over two years until that GM's contract was up and he retired to a condo in Honolulu. Which we were pretty sure the company also bought for him.

    Stealing $50-$75 per day from the company is small potatoes when you look at $38,000+ per day Wagoner squeezed out of GM, even years they had gigantic losses. Now we are carrying on that tradition with tax dollars.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Absolutely. Any model based on abuse/greed is a house of cards waiting to crumble. UAW is just a small example from the labor side. The management side abuses dwarfs what the UAW did but that's for another discussion.

    For now, WE will pay to implement changes that MIGHT improve the US auto landscape...but for the political undertones already apparent.

    Regards,
    OW
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Heck, those time/attendance policies get abused everywhere, it seems. Back in the 1990's, we had this lady who worked in the office next door. Her hours were supposed to be 8:30-5:15, with a 45 minute lunch. Well, it was rare to see her before 9:00. She'd often take a 3 hour lunch. Our supervisor went home at 4, and she would look out the window, watch his truck leave the parking lot, and then be out the door herself!

    Here at my company someone like that would easily get fired for putting in a false time card. Everything we do as a defense contractor is subject to audit by the federal govt. You badge in, in the morning, badge out when you leave, sign in to the network shortly after you badge in as well as sign off of the network just prior to leaving. If you put in 8 hours on your time card for that day, it's very easy to verify the hours you worked.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Everything we do as a defense contractor is subject to audit by the federal govt.

    Not sure if the Government has improved their methods since 1970. When I went to work for RCA in 1970 on the Alaska Long Distance system, it was run by the Air Force. We had Air Force techs, Civil service techs and RCA techs. The classic example I have ever witnessed was a Civil Service tech that would come in to work about 3:45 PM every day. And leave about 4:45 PM. The day shift got off at 4:15 PM. So we thought this guy was really gungho coming in and starting to work a half hour early. The Evening supervisor thought he was really gungho staying over half an hour after his shift ended. He did this for over 6 months and would not have gotten caught if he had not gotten greedy and put down for overtime. The evening supervisor asked the day supervisor why he authorized OT for this guy. That is when the truth came out and he was fired after a lengthy battle with the Government union.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    But Sears hasn't been the top retailer since the 1970s, when it lost its vision & began to stumble - much like General Motors.

    Even before then, the big discount chains of the day - Kmart, E.J. Korvettes, Caldor, etc. - were eating into Sears' customer base & profits, weakening the company's ability to pay those benefits.

    Sears was in trouble long before Walmart became a retailing force.


    No doubt. Walmart was far from alone in killing Sears. Sears was eaten alive by all sides and internally. Their downfall probably started around the time they built Sears Tower.

    The likes of Kohl's, Best Buy, Home Depot, and Walmart have all but finished off Sears. Amazon should not be overlooked either, their pricing is very aggressive and I'd imagine their overhead is less than a brick & mortar chain. I usually don't need a sales person who doesn't know what he/she is talking about to sell me a TV or laptop etc. Should I feel bad that someone may lose their job because I don't need or value their service? Or should I feel obligated to buy from the least efficient source just to support a job?

    I doubt most people on these boards bought their car from a dealer that quoted them the highest price.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    DallasDude - you're fighting the last war, or maybe the one before that.

    To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld,

    You can't live in the world you want to live in, you have to live in the world you're in.

    The fact is that the UAW model has failed, and that globalization WILL continue to occur. As has been pointed out elsewhere, tariffs closing our economic borders are neither practical nor even possible in the year 2009.

    Even if a movement in that direction were to start today, it would take decades before your closed market with artificially supported wages (and prices) would actually begin to work.

    What I think is difficult for you to accept is the fact that the UAW experiment (circa 1936 - 2009) was actually a pretty short one - it only lasted about as long as the experiment with Communism (1917 -1989). Roughly 75 years for either of them.
    (Note that I'm not saying that Unionism equals Communism, only that both were social-welfare system experiments).

    Both were based on noble ideals - and both were worth trying. Ultimately it was the way in which the theories were implemented that killed them. The truth - and the consequences - were just too far from the ideals.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Nostalgia remains as the remaining purpose for unions. I spent 11 years trying to engineer a product that would be union made. Most of those years, it was designed from the beginning to be produced for a loss. All corners were cut. Suppliers were beaten down in price. About 45% productivity was expected from the union workers and that was factored into the entire product and manufacturing designs. All this to keep our foot in the door at GM. Mitsubishi and Nippondenso were trying to get GM to close the door on us. The Japanese were using $10.50 labor and we were using $30.00 an hour labor with 45% efficiency. The fact that we only lost only 10-20% on each one and consistently outperformed the competition in head to head tests is our testament to American ingenuity.

    This was during GM's reinvention of itself in the mid 90's till '04. Now with union wages set to fall 10-20%, we can break even, except I'm not there anymore.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Let him have his say (I use him and his generically, as dallasDUDE could be female)...

    Dallas, in one sense, you have a valid point, one that I have made myself in the past...with the exception of trial lawyers, much of law IS paper pushing and filing...wills, trusts, corporations, bankruptcy, contract law, all come down to paper...

    Like any field, the question becomes "do you want to handle this on your own?" or pay someone to (hopefully) do it correctly the first time...many pro se folks in bankruptcy fail to fill out the forms correctly, thinking that if they want to surrender their car, they only fill out that form...then they get hammered by the Trustee and their bankruptcy may be thrown out of court...I would say about 10-15% of the cases that I observe in court are pro se...some do it correctly, some screw it up royally...

    Your Chindia example fails, IMO, because most people want to have a rapport with a person, not someone with a heavy accent who calls himself "Brian" when his real name is Patel...but the simple filling out of a quit claim deed why not use LegalZoom or some service in Chindia, where they email you the form to file with the Court???

    Same thing with divorce...for the simple uncontested divorce, use Brian Patel...once it is no longer simple or uncontested, Brian overseas will not do, and I don't see that happening...

    But I have made your point before, dallas, that attorneys are subject to the same market forces as the UAW, and I have never tried to avoid that...in fact, it was me who, while railing at the abuses of the UAW, realized that my field has to compete with forces that we did not have 10 years ago...

    The BIGGEST difference between the $35/hour floorsweeper and attorneys is that we often wear ties to work, as they do not allow overalls in Court for attorneys...clients, maybe, but not attorneys... :P ;):blush:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I met a forklift driver this weekend that makes 38/hr. No he isn't UAW and not in the auto industry. His forklift is a bit bigger and it says Caterpillar on it. He in the Teamsters heavy equipment operators union. $38/hr is not shabby for a 30 year old H.S. grad, plus if I understood him right he gets double time over 50hrs/wk.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Try to expand your view. The income mobility in this country is alive and well. The UAW world has collapsed due to market forces but people are more clever than you think.

    How much income mobility exists in America? Research consistently affirms that there is substantial upward income mobility in the United States, with the lowest income earners typically showing the strongest results. A Treasury Department study of the 1996–2005 period used IRS income tax data to discern considerable mobility: more than 55% of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile. More than half the people in the lowest fifth of earners moved to a higher quintile over this period (29% to the second, 14% to the third, 10% to the fourth, and 5% to the highest).

    Moreover, there is a great deal of movement in and out of the top income groups. The Treasury data show that 57% "of households in the top 1% in 2005 were not there nine years earlier." The rich sometimes get richer, but they get poorer as well. The study also reveals that income mobility has increased, not decreased, during the past twenty years. For example, 47.3% of those in the lowest income quintile in 1987 saw their incomes increase by at least 100% by 1996. That number jumped to 53.5% from 1996 to 2005.


    A common misperception is that the top or bottom income quintiles, or the top or bottom X% by income, are static, closed, private clubs with very little turnover - once you get into a top or bottom quintile, or a certain income percent, you stay there for life, making it difficult for people to move to a different group. But reality is very different - people move up and down the income quintiles and percentage groups throughout their careers and lives. The top or bottom 1/5/10%, just like the top or bottom quintiles, are never the same people from year to year, there is constant turnover as we move up and down the quintiles.

    Lighten up and open up, Dude! Everything does not revolve around Unions. Far from it.

    IOW, Wal-Mart and Sears will not have the same people working there form year to year. Good jobs will evolve just like the low payers. We are not all doomed! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    "that attorneys are subject to the same market forces as the UAW"

    The solicitor profession is forced to compete with workers in rogue locales that operate in a complete void of social and environmental responsibility, as workers in western manufacturing are forced to compete? That's cool.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    But virtually nobody who studies or observes economics will debate that The gap between rich and poor is widening and is infact greater that at any time since before the depression. Income mobility exists, for now, but it is not the law of the land.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Agreed, but do you know of a cure that isn't worse than the sickness?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    > He in the Teamsters heavy equipment operators union. $38/hr is not shabby for a 30 year old H.S. grad

    $38 for a high school grad to drive an oversized version of a lawn tractor is overpaid. Those forklift operators and floorsweepers at UAW didn't deserve their pay and this guy should not be overpaid like that either.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Because people's shopping patterns are not evenly spread throughout the day."

    Then use a split shift. Have them work 9-1 and 5-8 if that is when peak demand is.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    The gap between the rich and the poor may be increasing but the U.S. population is still doing very well compared to the rest of the world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income#International_statistics

    Whether you look at raw dollars or purchasing power parity figures (on the same chart) the U.S. citizen on average has one of the best incomes on the planet

    Recent researchers collecting data on the economic mobility of families across generations, looked at the probability of reaching a particular income distribution in regards to where their parents were ranked and found that 42 percent of those whose parents were in the bottom quintile ended up in the bottom quintile themselves, 23 percent of them ended in the second quintile, 19 percent in the middle quintile, 11 percent in the fourth quintile and 6 percent in the top quintile.[1]
    This shows that 58 percent of people in the United are upwardly economically mobile across generations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

    However, - in general (UAW excepted) those with only a High School education earn less than those who go on to college:

    Wages and earnings tend to correlate with the amount of education a person has obtained. In 2003, those workers with less than a high school diploma, earned a median income of $21,000; while those workers with a four year college degree earned a median income of $53,000 (James 2005). The poverty line in 2005 according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services was $19,350 for a four-person household; therefore, those with less education are more likely to be bordering on this line than those with more education. With a college degree, it is more likely for one to attain a professional-level job wherein he or she may earn a higher salary in comparison to someone working in a secondary, service-based job

    So - If you want to say that things are going greater for the rich than they are for the lower and middle classes, OK... that's true. But things are still pretty damn good in this country for the lower and middle classes compared to most places in the world.

    It's sort of like saying that the rich are getting 5 scoops of ice cream and the poor are only getting one.... yeah, but they're still getting ice cream....
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Then use a split shift. Have them work 9-1 and 5-8 if that is when peak demand is.

    You're serious? :(

    Hey YOU drive in to work to be there a 9 am, go home at 1 pm and then come back at 5 pm until 8 pm.

    You're not serious. :)
    :sick: That's an 11 hour day with a 4 hour unpaid break in the middle. :sick:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....I wrote previously that I needed u-shaped bulbs for my office...M&P sold them for $16.50, Home Depot sold them for $5.50...would YOU spend $165.00 for 10 of them when the same 10 cost $55.00 from HD???.."

    That is a point well taken. One question though. In most cases price differences aren't that great. I worked for a M&P Pharmacy when I was a teen. Then, as now his prices were reasonably competitive with the likes of CVS. We also have a M&P appliance store. Their prices are generally w/in $200 of a HD or Sears. One caveat; "free" delivery AND removal of the old appliance ( I put free in quotes because that may be the difference in price).

    Now, in both examples, I believe prices are competitive because they purchase through wholesalers that buy in bulk like a Sears or CVS and sell to M&P's. But some products like soda, foods, cleaning products, etc. it seems that there are no place for the M&P's to go to get a "bulk discount". I remember reading where a M&P was complaining that they could buy Coke from Walmart cheaper than Coke would sell it to them. That is where I would have a problem, as it could be perceived that larger retailers are making deals with companies that would sqeeze competition out.

    But I would agree that price gouging is price gouging, and those that employ it deserve to not be patronized, no matter how small they may be.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    I am saying that over time the top few percent are progressing much more than the rest. Surely people in the US and NA as a whole do have it better than most of the rest of the world, but that's not the point, and nobody is arguing that.

    How long can the gap keep growing before we end up with a society that is truly just serfs and elites? The desire of the globalists,btw.

    BTW, many people love to brag about American incomes and purchasing power, but those don't seem to translate directly into quality of life ideals. The purchasing power is also exaggerated due to so much shoddy merchandise imported from slave labor locales.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Well, It is offered as an operator at Verizon. Many people would take advantage of it, as they could get the kids up and off to school, go to work, come home in time for the kids to get off the bus, make supper, spouse comes home from their job, and they go back for 3 or 4 hrs.

    It's amazing what you'll do for $800/wk plus bennies ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    $38 for a high school grad to drive an oversized version of a lawn tractor is overpaid.

    He may be qualified on several large pieces of earth moving equipment as well. Teamsters gained 80,000 new positions in 2008. Does not sound like they are putting companies out of business like the UAW. Also how much of his health care is he paying and does he have to pay into his 401K with that $38 per hour? Some Davis Bacon jobs pay a flat hourly rate with NO benefits included. You are on your own for pension and HC.

    PS
    He is a highly skilled Teamster not an unskilled UAW worker.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I remember reading where a M&P was complaining that they could buy Coke from Walmart cheaper than Coke would sell it to them. That is where I would have a problem, as it could be perceived that larger retailers are making deals with companies that would sqeeze competition out.

    That happens all of the time. My dad is in purchasing for a regional grocery chain that has annual sales of about $1 billion per year. He has told me several times that even with the amount of sales his company does, there are still items that Walmart can sell at a profit that is cheaper than what he can buy direct. Walmart still has a over 300 times the purchasing power and they have all of the manufacturers in their back pocket. But hey, that's business, and that competition helps the consumer. The company my dad works for has still found ways to compete, like better selection, store location, and service. They've had several new Walmart supercenters move close to their stores and they still were able to improve sales by 15% so far this year.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >He may be qualified on several large pieces of earth moving equipment as well.

    He might be qualified to be president, but if he's only driving a forklift then he should get pay commensurate with what he's actually doing at the time. (I'm being stubborn on these issues since that's the way UAW workers were characterized by a few.)
    As for the 401K and pension--life is rough.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Also how much of his health care is he paying and does he have to pay into his 401K with that $38 per hour?

    From what I heard, the teamster contract he works for also has a rock solid pension too. This is a local in Chicago. Maybe the Daley machine is helping take care of him. I know several teamster heavy equipment operators and a few cement truck drivers up their that make good money. All over $28/hr, plus pension, medical etc.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hey YOU drive in to work to be there a 9 am, go home at 1 pm and then come back at 5 pm until 8 pm.

    Split shifts were common for Telephone operators. Most were Union jobs. I don't think you will ever see the end of part time workers. Too many people only want to work 20 hours per week. And Temporary is entirely different. I think that there should be some kind of rules on companies that keep people on as temps for years at a time.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know you are playing devil's advocate for the forklift operator that went bankrupt when he lost his $16k per year in OT. I have no doubt that many Union people make more than the the UAW workers. The issue is the company going bankrupt and US subsidizing them. The $28 per hour was only a fraction of what it was costing Delphi to keep this guy on the job. By the fact that he was party to the UAW contracts, he has to accept that a big share of his package is not going to benefit him, but the retirees that have gone on before. He signed on to work at a job that was part of a giant Ponzi scheme. In about 1990 our retirees had 100% health care for life including dental and eye care. The local Teamster Pension Trust could see it would not be sustainable. So they decided to drop the health care and the pensioners had to get their own. Along with the rest of us when we retired. The UAW was not smart enough to think ahead. GM management was not smart enough to avoid the trap. So why should we contribute good money to keep them going?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Now, in both examples, I believe prices are competitive because they purchase through wholesalers that buy in bulk like a Sears or CVS and sell to M&P's. But some products like soda, foods, cleaning products, etc. it seems that there are no place for the M&P's to go to get a "bulk discount". I remember reading where a M&P was complaining that they could buy Coke from Walmart cheaper than Coke would sell it to them. That is where I would have a problem, as it could be perceived that larger retailers are making deals with companies that would sqeeze competition out

    I'm not sure about the products you're talking about, but around here, when it comes to appliances, there's a old M&P store that's been in business for over 50 years that still matches or beats the big box stores such as Best Buy, Lowe's, HD, Costco, or even WM. They operate out of a row house on the East side of town. No showroom and no stock (except for some small stuff like range hoods or window AC units), and the house was probably paid for 25 years ago. They want you to shop for the appliance at the above mentioned stores, figure out what you want, get a price, then come to them with the model number of the appliance. The 70 or 80 year old owner then pulls out his catalog, gets his price from the manufacturer, adds a small profit for himself, and that's your price. Definitely different from Marsha7's experience buying the u-tube lights.

    We bought a gas range from them that was ~$300 cheaper there than from L's.

    It did include free delivery, though we had to take the old unit to the landfill ourselves.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    The appliance store near me has the appliances in stock, and a showroom as big as what you'd find at a Sears (albeit, that's all they sell), but they are part of a co-op of stores that buys them from the mfr's. These people do remove the old appliance for you.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    What it boils down to is this...M&P stores are NOT worth "protecting" because there is nothing to protect except the image of the little old storekeeper...they either compete or they don't, and if they don't then the store closes and the space is vacant until someone else rents it...no one has any valid reason otherwise...

    From other posters here, it appears that some M&P stores CAN compete, simply because the old store owner decided that he could adapt to the Walmarts of the wworld and give you a reason to keep coming to him...by bringing him the model number, he can order the item, deliver it same day, almost the equivalent of drop shipping, where he makes money on the sale and has NO inventory cost...that is a store owner who has joined the modern era, whereas the store owner that wanted to sell me bulbs just ain't gonna cut it at those prices...

    In Sam Walton's autobiography, even he said that WalMart is a general store and that smaller folks could compete by concentrating on his weaknesses, one of them being service...

    My point is simple...either Mom & Pop adapt or they deserve to die along with buggy whip makers, wagon wheel makers, etc....they have no right to exist just because they have been there so long...

    "Then use a split shift. Have them work 9-1 and 5-8 if that is when peak demand is."...cooter, I can't believe you would expect this from most normal people...a most ridiculous schedule, with almost half a day off in the middle, just to be full-time???...it may work for some, but don't expect it to become the norm...there is nothing wrong with a bunch of temps or part -timers, if that is what the company wants...no one has the right to demand 40 hours if the compnay does not want it...if that means high turnover due to lack of career options, so be it...

    Why do people think that a company has to offer them anything, just because they want it???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    either Mom & Pop adapt or they deserve to die along with buggy whip makers

    My brother in law tells about his mom and the general store his folks had for over 40 years. It was in a little community outside San Diego. When his Dad died he tried helping his mom keep the store going. He found stuff that had been on the shelves for 30+ years. He tried to get her to have a big clearance sale and get rid of the old crap. She was not going to take a loss on any of it. So she hung in till she died and the kids sold off the whole mess to someone else. Either compete or die is the way things should be.

    The UAW workers now have millions of folks willing to do what they do for less than half what they have charged the D3 for the last 50 years. Compete or die.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The only 80's car I ever saw the wheels come off of was a mazda 626. There was a wheel with 2 1/2 feet of axle still attached laying next to a 626 that had drud itself to a stop along the side of the road. I think the axle was still stuck a couple of inches into the car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You need to be around PU trucks more. Ford F250 and F350 are always losing axles or breaking them. Probably the weakest link in those trucks. At least up to 2006. They do not like 40 below weather much up in the Arctic.

    PS
    I don't think the UAW designed them. They did strike when American Axle went out on strike.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "......"...cooter, I can't believe you would expect this from most normal people..."

    I'll bet there are plenty of moms that would take those hours. As an operator, we had DOZENS of moms that would work those hours during the school year, then switch to nights during the summer.

    ".....Why do people think that a company has to offer them anything, just because they want it??? "

    It's just another way to keep a quality set of employees. Why would it be wrong to ask this of an employer if it would keep the turnover rate lower?
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    "...cooter, I can't believe you would expect this from most normal people..."
    I was dreaming about such work hours when I was young and played lot of sport. Eat and sleep in the middle of the day - priceless!!!
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Many people would take advantage of it, as they could get the kids up and off to school, go to work, come home in time for the kids to get off the bus, make supper,

    "make supper" - Now, that's a term that I can relate to. I "betcha" that most UAW folks on the dayshift come home to a meal they call supper. Sure more honest than the mcmansion crowd that mostly have a "Dinner" meal every weekday about 5-7 PM where it is mainly something like hamburger helper or similar.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,040
    I'll bet there are plenty of moms that would take those hours. As an operator, we had DOZENS of moms that would work those hours during the school year, then switch to nights during the summer.

    I guess there are some people that would appreciate a shift like that. I have a friend who works as a waiter, and sometimes they'll give him a split shift. He'll go in for lunch, and then essentially take a 3-4 hour lunch break, and then go back for the dinner rush. Personally I'd hate a shift like that, as I'd prefer to just get work out of the way for the day and be done with it, but there are some jobs that lend themselves well to it.

    As for my friend, he'll run errands or find something to do on that long lunch break.

    Also, I guess if you worked close to home, it wouldn't be too big of a deal. My Mom and Grandmom used to work at a hospital about 2 miles from Grandmom's house, and they'd run home to catch "The Young and The Restless" on tv! Not exactly a split shift though, probably just an hour lunch. I'd imagine back then, Y&R was just 1/2 hour.

    However, it wouldn't fit me at all. If I had a 3-4 hour break in between work shifts, all I'd be doing is thinking about going back to work, so it wouldn't be enjoyable time.

    Sure, I could adapt if I really had to, and there was no other choice. But I'd rather not. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's just another way to keep a quality set of employees.

    Improving wages and working conditions has been done throughout the ages to keep good employees. Ford raised wages long before there was a UAW to keep the turnover down. Unions have played a big part in getting good wages and working conditions. I think the pendulum is swinging back in favor of the employer as the Unions have strangled productivity in many cases. The loss of a million UAW jobs over the last few decades is a telling figure. If the Union does not look at the big picture they are doomed. No goose, no eggs. The UAW has killed the goose laying the golden eggs.
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