>Someone getting $400+ per week on unemployment is not going to take a job paying $8 per hour. Unemployment is not a job.... I know people waiting for the unemployment to run out before they get serious about job hunting.
So unemployment has become the new welfare program.
I notice how the Obama gov has continued to give the programs so they look like the good guys but the states get the bill for the continuing the program. This is operating just like Medicaid where the states are going to have increased costs for the fed expanding who receives Medicaid--a backdoor step to increasing socialized medicine.
I notice how the Obama gov has continued to give the programs so they look like the good guys but the states get the bill for the continuing the program.
That is exactly right. A few smart governors tried to reject the money due to the strings attached. Once you offer more than the existing unemployment you are stuck with the new time frame. It is welfare pure and simple. A poor substitute for creating jobs. Something this administration has not done.
>A poor substitute for creating jobs. Something this administration has not done.
I've observed the change in "business activity" in this area of the country since the first quarter. The upchange in business is all that is saving this economy; but that's the normal progression of a recession. The increase in auto production, be it US makers or those who send the profits back to Japan (note toyota complaining about the exchange rate affecting how much money they get back from US), will help the economy in the end so $4C will help.
Note, my technique for business assessment is the type and number of trucks on the highways. Frequenting the I70 and I75 corridors I see the number of trucks and other business signs traveling around the Midwest. You could shoot a howitzer and not hit anything back in the First Quarter. Early summer the large semi numbers increased and, most importantly, the small box trucks moving "stuff" around the area in SW Ohio. Those box trucks represent the small businesses beginning to stir and get busier. Those business maintain and create new jobs. That I find important because we've lost so many jobs in the UAW through Delphi plant and GM plant closings. The temporaries at honda and toyota were let go, and that was even more jobs lost.
UAW pay jobs aren't coming back to here. But some higher-paying manufacturing jobs would be nice to replace the auto business UAW jobs that the Feds helped give away and the UAW workers' greed helped drive away.
The increase in auto production, be it US makers or those who send the profits back to Japan (note toyota complaining about the exchange rate affecting how much money they get back from US), will help the economy in the end so $4C will help.
FYI: the profits go to the shareholders, many of whom live outside of Japan. If you wanted to, you could buy shares in Toyota Motor Corp, which trades on the NYSE (symbol TM). In that case, your share of these profits would go to you - not to Tokyo.
Unemployment is an insurance that is paid for by your employment. Unfortunately that fund is being depleted by all of the states at an alarming rate due to the current economic conditions. You continue to state that the jobs are out there. You fail to come to grips with the reality that the jobs have been shipped overseas. So who is to buy those wiggets made overseas after all the good paying jobs are gone?
YOU fail to come to grips with the reasons that jobs have been shipped overseas.
We are in a global economy whether the Union members like it or not. If they expect to keep the high paying jobs they have to work harder and smarter. The UAW workers have done neither. In fact they have blocked progress in the USA. The new Ford plant that ended up in Brazil along with the Olympics are prime examples of what the rest of the world think of US. Corporations do not want to waste money on workers that feel they are entitled to a job. Workers that believe their job is more important than the company making a profit. I hate to see US lose jobs overseas. But you cannot blame the corporations when they see the UAW striking GM when they are losing $40 billion in one year. A big share going to UAW retirees.
Unemployment is an insurance that is paid for by your employment
That is exactly right. It is for a set amount of months. In most cases 6 months or less. When the Feds throw in more money and extend the benefits it is WELFARE. It is like you getting an insurance policy for $10,000 and expecting the insurance company to pay you $20,000 when due. So far most of the stimulus money has done NOTHING to stimulate the economy. It has just been handed out as welfare in the form of added unemployment and covering mandated Medicaid programs.
We should be getting some work from those collecting the welfare. Give them a broom and a trash bag to clean up our streets and highways. Or a brush and paint to cover up the graffiti found everywhere. Plenty of work that needs to be done. Let's spend our tax dollars wisely by putting those on unemployment back to work for that money the tax payers are doling out.
exactly. Let 'em work for their Fed. U.I. extensions. The trails need fixing, bridges need mending, etc. Let's get something for our tax dollar paid out!
Well, forget about the unemployed....here's a waste of money just BEGGING to stop hemorrhaging. Unions at their best! U.S. Postal Service, struggling with a massive $7 billion deficit caused by plummeting mail volume, spends more than a million dollars each week to pay thousands of employees to sit in empty rooms and do nothing.
It’s a practice called “standby time,” and it has existed for years — but postal employees say it was rarely used until this year. Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.
Mail volume is down 12.6 percent compared with last year, and many postal supervisors simply don’t have enough work to keep all employees busy. But a thicket of union rules prevents managers from laying off excess employees; a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them. So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year.
"a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them. So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year."
That's the one that really gets me. Other post offices need the help, and Union rules-skies prevent Managers from sending available(sitting on their butts)people over to help. :sick:
Hmmm....out of touch with reality is one of the earmarks of ALL Unions but the UAW are at the head of the club. Reviewing September's detailed sales results in the car business carried at the Wall Street Journal, three things stick out immediately:
* The awful performance at General Motors -- down 45% from September 2008. * Chrysler's even worse performance -- down "only" 42% from September 2008, but a mind-boggling 61% from September 2007 (62,197 in 2009, 156,799 in 2007) * Ford's tiny decline of only 6% from a year ago, despite the end of the Cash For Clunkers program in August.
No other major maker had a year-over-year September decline that was even half of that seen at GM or Chrysler.
Yet the press, while beginning to acknowledge serious problems at the companies, both of which were first bailed out by the government and then taken through government-orchestrated, contract law-violating, UAW-favoring bankruptcies, still will not entertain the possibility, despite the evidence, that consumers are shunning them because of their bailed-out status and their heavy-handed tactics in bankruptcy.
Of course, the current Administration is in collusion with the UAW all the way. Too bad everyone looses in the current economy. The sad truth is that it did not have to be that way sans GREED.
The Congressional Oversight Panel has already said taxpayers will not see most of the $81 billion that they put into the American car industry. The $14.3 billion put into Chrysler is more and more likely to be lost completely. The biggest single loser if Chrysler cannot survive is the UAW which owns 55% of the company.
* Ford's tiny decline of only 6% from a year ago, despite the end of the Cash For Clunkers program in August.
I guess it would not be convenient to mention that Honda and Toyota sales are down at approximately the same rate as Ford from a year ago, since that statistic would not fit the anti UAW agenda of some on this forum.
Thanks for reminding me why I rarely visit this forum anymore. Rocky was right to leave when he did.
I"I guess it would not be convenient to mention that Honda and Toyota sales are down at approximately the same rate as Ford from a year ago, since that statistic would not fit the anti UAW agenda of some on this forum. "
au contraire tedebear - It's very relevant and thoughtful of you to bring it up. Honda and Toyota sales ARE down... and yes, that's the same as Ford and GM - (but since you brought it up), the difference is that Honda and Toyota are better able to control their labor costs in times of poor sales as they are not burdened with the same kind of restrictive labor rules that the UAW imposes on companies.
So, yes, all their ships are taking on water in terms of bad sales... but Honda and Toyota have the advantage since they can more easily reassign all their sailors to bailing out their ships.
I can just see a bunch of Toyota employees getting shifted over to punch an extra retaining hole in floor mats.
Different union but "janitors are outraged after many of them were laid off from their jobs providing janitorial service for Toyota's National Sales and Marketing Headquarters in Torrance."
>anitors are outraged after many of them were laid off from their jobs providing janitorial service for Toyota's National Sales and Marketing Headquarters in Torrance."
I see mention of SEIU in that article. They'll have ACORN boycotting Toyota next. There's some poetic justice here seeing Toyota having problems the likes of what GM and others have gone through in the past as some people cheered.
"We are in a global economy whether the Union members like it or not. If they expect to keep the high paying jobs they have to work harder and smarter. The UAW workers have done neither."
And, considering the motivation, work ethic and lack of intelligence of the average (and sub-average) UAW "worker" (I should say..."position"), they will never comprehend the reason to work harder or smarter (to assume UAW can do ANYTHING smarter is assuming they have more brains than my Labrador retriever, and that is one assumption I would not make)...
To quote gagrice again..."We should be getting some work from those collecting the welfare. Give them a broom and a trash bag to clean up our streets and highways. Or a brush and paint to cover up the graffiti found everywhere. Plenty of work that needs to be done"...
While I was in Detroit, they actually did try and get welfare cheats recipients to clean and sweep the streets, pick up trash in parks, etc...the UNION screamed bloody murder saying that a union member should be doing that job for union wages...now, you NEVER saw anybody picking up trash, so the city was a large landfill, but the union told everyone how they protected "jobs"...
And the welfare cheats recipients sat on their duffs doing nothing...which, I guess was their future training for the UAW Jobs Bank, eh???
Who cares how or why the jobs disappeared. They're gone and they're not coming back and that is the problem! When we have massive angry armies of the unemployed, anything can and has happened! Look at Germany during the Depression!
I think I'd rather be kept busy working on a W.P.A. project than sitting around waiting for a handout. Imagine how clean and beautiful our cities could be if all those idled workers were out there cleaning up trash and graffiti and fixing our streets, roads, and bridges! Heck, I rather be outside on a construction crew than letting my mind atrophy watching Jerry Springer and guzzling Colt 45 or taking on some menial fast food or retail job. Heck, when I'm older I can look back and say with pride, "Hey, I helped build that bridge!"
Sadly the UAW mentality is such that they would feel degraded working for their unemployment check. They have been programmed to feel they somehow deserve to get a check whether they work or not. I am visiting here with my son from Alaska. He is working as a carpenter for $13 per hour. I asked him if that seemed low. He said the carpenters making $20+ per hour were all out of work. His boss keeps them busy year round. That is what I call a proper attitude. He would rather be working than getting $250 per week unemployment.
So I agree that programs like the WPA are preferable to extended unemployment checks. This President is too beholden to the Unions to ever propose such a plan.
Heck, I rather be outside on a construction crew than letting my mind atrophy watching Jerry Springer and guzzling Colt 45 or taking on some menial fast food or retail job.
My uncle works in construction, on a road/bridge crew, and he used to get laid off every year right around Christmas. He'd usually get called back to work sometime in March, but one year it got pushed out until late April, and he was getting worried.
He would get unemployment during that time off, although he still had to get out and look for a job. Kind of pointless though, to pick up some menial job, knowing that you're going to have to quit in a couple months when your company calls you back.
They're on a different contract now, and have year-round work, so he hasn't had that little Christmas "vacation" in probably 6 years or more. But I remember when he did, he'd be really active around the house, doing projects and such, and he'd help me with just about anything I needed. For about a month. Then he'd sort of just wind down and lose all motivation, until it he got called back to work.
What's that old cliche? Idle hands are the devil's workshop, or something like that?
Construction work is sporadic most of the time. Getting laid off and re-hired is the way it works. You pay into unemployment insurance and collect the weeks or months the work is gone. It was never meant to support a person full time for a year or more. Unless you worked for the auto companies and got into the jobs bank that paid full pay for sitting in a rubber room reading funny papers and watching Oprah.
I thought workers in the jobs bank could go to school while they were idled and GM would pay for it. I think I'd rather do that than sit in a room reading the paper or watching TV. I'm sure the smart guys took advantage of that opportunity.
Yes the smart ones did. From the WSJ article I read it was a small percentage that took advantage of the training. The rest were too lazy and knew they could not make the money they made for the auto makers doing anything else short of being a brain surgeon..
I was looking thru my local paper and a Ford dealer was advertising the new taurus SEL for $30,440! come on really, for a FORD? it is absolutely absurd that americal vehicles can reach upwards of $70K! no wonder the big 3 are going bust. why don't they build cars that average americans can afford? I remember the original sho was $25K and the new one is almost $50K. Maybe the UAW and the execs need to take a pay cut, and lower the price of the vehicles, otherwise the Koreans are going to do what the Japanese did in the 80's/90's. Wake up people, we all have to make adjustments in these trying times, why are you above any of that?
I think I'd rather be kept busy working on a W.P.A. project than sitting around waiting for a handout. Imagine how clean and beautiful our cities could be if all those idled workers were out there cleaning up trash and graffiti and fixing our streets, roads, and bridges!
But see, like Marsha7 said, in many places the local governments can't/won't do that. The construction unions want all that kind of work to go to their members at the prevailing wages, which is a lot more than what they're collecting on unemployment. So you just can't take someone out of work and give them a shovel to go work on a construction project.
And that is why the union has become for of a destructive force in America, rather than the constructive force they were in the 30's, 40's and probably into the 50's...now they are the biggest threat to the American economy since the Communists in the Cold War...(where is Joe McCarthy when we REALLY need him???)
So who is to buy those wiggets made overseas after all the good paying jobs are gone?
This is the question. Who is going to fuel the economy when the American consumer is gone? The American consumer has made America the envy of the world. What do you suppose we in America can sell (besides a Coke and a Big Mac) those under paid workers in China?
Who is going to fuel the economy when the American consumer is gone? The American consumer has made America the envy of the world.
That is absolutely false. The American inventor and entrepreneur have made America the envy of the World. The workers that are productive have been a plus. They can build nothing without the investment and a product to build. There in lies the problem. The UAW has pumped these non skilled workers full of lies. They make them believe they are indispensable. That is TOTAL ignorance. Anyone in any country in the World can be trained to put together a product someone else invents.
There is a Ford agency next to the Hotel I am staying at this week. They have a bunch of these cool little delivery vans called Transit Connect. They are made in Turkey. Engines are from Spain and the auto transmission is built in the USA. If the UAW keeps pushing Ford plants out of the US there will not be any work left as GM and C are all but history.
Whining about Chinese workers and their wages does not change anything. Even with your choice for Hope and Change last November.
It would be funny if it were not so true! NOT. You are one of the almost majority who need to be with Joe MaCarthy and guess what he is alive and well with the likes of Bernnie Madoff, AIG,ENRON executives who control the purse strings of the prior administration and the old congress boys that took 700 Billion and forced this administration to dedicate 10 Trillion more to keep America afloat. Those nuts are the ones you should be mad at. But I get how almost 50% of American workers are brainwashed by the likes of Rush? slow LIMBO and Beck the peck-er. The only hope for working Americans are the Unions and you are just to ignorant to know and to blind to see. I just hope you have a non union job and all the benifits they do not have, Like Walli World!!!!!!!! :confuse: :confuse:
There is a Ford agency next to the Hotel I am staying at this week. They have a bunch of these cool little delivery vans called Transit Connect. They are made in Turkey. Engines are from Spain and the auto transmission is built in the USA.
There's an interesting side note to the Transit Connect van. There is still a tariff in effect on imported, non US-built trucks. In order to avoid this tariff, Ford imports the vans with seats and rear windows in them which classifies them as a passenger vehicle, so no trariff. As soon as they come off the boat, they go to a warehouse where the cheap back seats are removed, and the rear windows replaced with a sheet metal panel. Voila - passenger van -> delivery van in about 10 minutes.
So who is to buy those wiggets made overseas after all the good paying jobs are gone?
Dallasdude -
I think that you mistake "all the good paying jobs" with manufacturing jobs. Ain't so. Hasn't been so in about forever.
See below:
Manufacturing's share of the U.S. economy continues its 50-year decline. Last year, manufacturing GDP fell to an all-time low of just 12 percent of the economy, according to a Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI analysis of recent data from the Commerce Department.
"Both major segments of manufacturing--durable and nondurable industries--declined," according to MAPI. Durable manufacturing accounted for 7 percent of the economy last year, down from 9.2 percent in 1995. Nondurable manufacturing fell to just 5 percent of the economy, from 6.7 percent in 1995.
"Damn!",you say, "things have gotten really bad since the economy went to Hell in 2008!"
However that quote is from a 2006 article written well before the 'crash' of General Motors et al.
Further, manufacturing has never been more than 1/3 of the economy, even at its peak
In 1993, manufacturing as a percentage of the U.S. economy stood at 15.9 percent, down from its post World War II peak of 28.3 percent in 1953.
Now, you may rightly sulk that kids can no longer safely ignore their parents' warnings that all the good jobs will go to the kids who study in school, but is that wrong? Shouldn't the kids who study in school get the good jobs?
basspro: You are one of the almost majority who need to be with Joe MaCarthy and guess what he is alive and well with the likes of Bernnie Madoff, AIG,ENRON executives who control the purse strings of the prior administration and the old congress boys that took 700 Billion and forced this administration to dedicate 10 Trillion more to keep America afloat.
Not that the facts matter to you, but Bernie Madoff donated heavily to the Democratic Party, so I fail to see how he would have any sway with the Bush Administration.
basspro: The only hope for working Americans are the Unions and you are just to ignorant to know and to blind to see.
Most of us can see what the unions (and management) helped do to GM and Chrysler, so we'll pass.
basspro: I just hope you have a non union job and all the benifits they do not have, Like Walli World!!!!!!!!
Another union booster who has no clue as to how most people live and work. It helps to get out into the real world once in a blue moon.
Who is going to fuel the economy when the American consumer is gone? The American consumer has made America the envy of the world. What do you suppose we in America can sell (besides a Coke and a Big Mac) those under paid workers in China?
It's funny, for years we in the U.S. felt bad for all the poor people of the world. We wanted them to have food and amenities like the rest of us. Now fast forward 20 years or so and the rest of the world is slowly catching up. Well that means of course that the US is going to have competition for products. Those poor people aren't going to catch up if their economies aren't producing valuable goods and services that make them more valuable and productive. It's going to creat a world economy rather than a highly US-centric economy.
So now that this is all happening there are us in the US that are moaning about the competition, about how we are no longer as predominant in the world. The US is STILL the biggest manufacturer in the world. We can make the best products if we quit moaning and channel all that energy to being smart, efficient, and flexible.
But of course our unions HATE smart, efficient, and flexible. They are the OPPOSITE of that.
I guess we were being disingenuous when we pretended that we wanted the rest of the world's poor to have it better.
Funny, I am in the MAJORITY. We won the congress and the presidency. We do know how the real world works and I hope the majority continues to vote the right way and maybe,just maybe we can fix some of the raping of America that has gone on far to long. The throw away the worker mentality needs to stop. my children need a good job. I do know how most people live and work and I also know how corporate America can never get enough money!! they care nothing about the worker and we must make them care with laws!! I DO SEE, I REALLY DO.
Corporate American took jobs overseas, Unions have no control over that. Unions across the nation have given up many time and many concessions and it is never enough. Corporate America want everyone at minimum wage and no benefits!! I have seen it for decades. I feel sorry for you ignorance.
For different take on that "Corporate American took jobs overseas, Unions have no control over that" view, here's an article from the WSJ that hints at some of the problems Delphi had with the (UAW) unions when it was going through bankruptcy.
Corporate American took jobs overseas, Unions have no control over that.
The UAW has less than 400,000 members. From a peak of 1.5 million. Those jobs went overseas as a result of UAW not giving in when the auto makers were losing money. They went on strike last year when GM was losing $40 billion. That is what is meant by Unions sending jobs overseas. Anyone that cannot see that is blind to reality. And I am a retired Union member of 46 years. I don't hate Unions. Only ones like the UAW that have destroyed the influence Unions once had.
Well, something went wrong. Unions should take responsibility as does management, or lack thereof.. It's all connected. When the business formula goes wrong and never corrected, it finally fails.
Simple.
This is happening to the USPS as we speak. It is a formula that has not been managed successfully to transition it into the future. Therefore, it is failing. Can't blame foreign countries for that nor the US Auto Industry failure afaic.
That's a pretty strong statement. Try life without a union and you might find a whole new world where people work together to make the best products, the highest efficiency. The U.S. used to work in that way, some industries still do. Just not the unionized portions of the US auto industry.
My "ignorance" started when about 25 years ago a coworker told me her husband (an accountant) could not carry computer printouts two floors in megacorp building. He would get in trouble as that would be hurting a union job! That's just STUPID!
WSJ: You were criticized for calling unionized Delphi workers overpaid. How should other bankrupt businesses deal with labor costs and unions?
Mr. Miller: Delphi's case was unique. Our labor costs were roughly triple what any other unionized U.S. [auto] supplier was bearing.
It was not my intention to take a hard line. The union leadership chose to portray it as a hard line. When I said, 'I can't afford $65 an hour for somebody mowing the lawn,' that was simply trying to explain some sources of our problem. It became an insult to many [Delphi] skilled workers. I regret it became so twisted.
My advice would be to work [issues] out directly with labor. As head of Bethlehem Steel, I met on a regular basis with the head of the steelworkers' union. I brought him to talk to my board about what we should be doing. It was a surprise and disappointment that I was unable to achieve that with the UAW.
Which shows that the UAW leadership is not interested in US corporations succeeding. When the jobs go overseas most times it is labor that forces them to leave this country. Non skilled labor should never be paid as much as skilled. That is what the UAW has done to destroy jobs in America. A fork lift operator making as much as a machinist is just ignorant. It was a Delphi fork lift operator that made the news when OT was cut and his $116k per year job was cut to $87k and he filed for bankruptcy.
So, yes, all their ships are taking on water in terms of bad sales... but Honda and Toyota have the advantage since they can more easily reassign all their sailors to bailing out their ships.
Got it?
No, apparently you and a few other UAW haters on here do not get it. The official figures are now in for September 2009 versus September 2008. Honda sales are down 20% and Toyota sales are down 19%, while the UAW-run Ford is down just a mere 5%. Explain that one, boys and girls.
I guess it is convenient to mention the UAW when they have ties to a company that has slow sales during the recession but things quickly get passed over when other companies in the same industry are doing much worse. Gee, if the UAW are such a bunch of blood-sucking leeches, as some on here claim, then every UAW-run company should be doing much worse than any other.
Now go ahead and put your anti UAW spin on this. We're anxiously awaiting.
I recall an old Warner Brothers' cartoon. The 1956 Looney Tunes cartoon short was called "Yankee Dood It," based on the fairy tale "The Shoemaker and the Elves" with Elmer Fudd as the King of industrial Elves. A hundred years after this fairy tale took place, he visits the shoemaker to retrieve the elves he has employed, while also imparting the virtues of mass production capitalism to him.
Elmer, as the elf, also explains how working conditions and wages had vastly improved. A segment set in 1900 shows a tired sweaty worker handing his wife a handful of change as he collapses into a chair in his rundown tenement apartment. The next segment set in the present (1950s) shows the same worker neatly dressed and vigorous coming home to his suburban house handing his wife a thick stack of bills. And then they both hop into his sleek new convertible for a picnic with the kids.
Heck, they should update this cartoon with the greedy Daffy Duck representing 21st Century Corporate America telling the shoemaker how he can close his factory in America, reopen it in China, and make windfall profits on the backs of dirt cheap foreign labor. Then we can see a segment where the unemployed American worker comes home exhausted with his pockets turned out after another fruitless day of job searching. His worried wife looks on with grave concern. Then the house gets foreclosed, the car is repossessed, and the kids have joined a street gang and are packing Glocks and slingin' rocks. The segment ends with the worker broke and homeless sitting on the railroad tracks with an empty malt liquor bottle in front of him awaiting an oncoming train.
So, yes, all their ships are taking on water in terms of bad sales... but Honda and Toyota have the advantage since they can more easily reassign all their sailors to bailing out their ships.
Got it?
No, apparently you and a few other UAW haters on here do not get it. The official figures are now in for September 2009 versus September 2008. Honda sales are down 20% and Toyota sales are down 19%, while the UAW-run Ford is down just a mere 5%. Explain that one, boys and girls.
Ok - one more time. Yes, the sales of all the companies are down. However the profitability of Honda and Toyota isn't being damaged as badly as the Detroit companies because their expenses are more controllable.
For GM, Chrysler (and to a lesser extent) and Ford, labor costs are a fixed expense. Honda and Toyota can more easily reduce production, temporarily close plants and reduce labor costs.
Here's an artice (from April, so a little dated) Honda profit dives 77% but remains in the black
Further, for September 2009 Ford sales were down 13.3% (adjusted for selling days) vs. Honda's down 12%. Toyota's sales losses were 13.3%, same as Ford's)
Oh, and another small lesson in reading statistics - Ford sales didn't fall as much in 2009 because they were already really low.... they didn't have as far to fall to reach them minimum 'loyal customer' bottom. They weren't very high in 2007 and fell father in 2008. So there wasn't as much room to drop. Got it this time?
As Expected, Ford Falls From 2nd Place in U.S. Sales 4 Jan 2008
Ford had the greatest decline. Its market share fell to 14.8 percent in 2007 from 16.4 a year earlier. Despite its recent push to sell more cars, they accounted for most of Ford’s decline.
You'll find this chart from from Ford informative :
No, apparently you and a few other UAW haters on here do not get it. The official figures are now in for September 2009 versus September 2008. Honda sales are down 20% and Toyota sales are down 19%, while the UAW-run Ford is down just a mere 5%. Explain that one, boys and girls.
Well, one rationale I can think of is that Ford had been bleeding for awhile, and was already pretty wrecked as of September 2008. Ford depends more on sales of larger vehicles to keep it afloat, and larger vehicles are what took the big hit back in 2008 as fuel prices soared. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda were riding pretty high back in 2008, thanks to smaller vehicles like the Prius, Civic, Corolla, Yaris, Fit, and even the Camry/Accord, which get good fuel economy for their size.
So fast forward to 2009, the economy crashed, pretty much hurting demand for all vehicles, not just larger ones. Plus, fuel prices fell, and a lot of new-vehicle sales had already been pulled forward as buyers scrambled to buy smaller, more efficient cars, thinking those fuel prices would stay high forever.
Well, Ford had pretty much already fallen, so it didn't have much further to go. Toyota and Honda, however, did. And I'd presume Nissan took a pretty big hit as well.
Please note that the Democratic Party is a coalition of groups. Not every Democrat is a union member, anymore than every Republican is an evangelical Christian.
You do realized that a majority of Democrats opposed the bailout of GM and Chrysler?
mpcross: The throw away the worker mentality needs to stop.
One thing that helped kill GM was the "UAW workers have lifetime employment regardless of whether people are buying enough GM cars to keep them employed" mentality.
The idea that no one should ever lose their job has been tried; it failed. GM didn't fail because it threw the worker away; it failed in part because the UAW seemed to think that employment of its members by GM should be guaranteed regardless of the demand for GM products.
GM tried to make up for this in other areas - by dumping unwanted cars on fleet customers; by decontenting as much as possible; by using cheaper components whenever possible; by ignoring the lower profit segements while focusing on higher profit full-size trucks and SUVs. In the long run, these tactics came back to bite GM on the backside.
mpcross: my children need a good job. I do know how most people live and work and I also know how corporate America can never get enough money!! they care nothing about the worker and we must make them care with laws!! I DO SEE, I REALLY DO.
You - and other workers - have jobs because companies make things that people want to buy. If said company isn't making things that large numbers of people want to buy at prices high enough to enable said company to earn a profit, there is no reason for this company to exist.
Companies exist to make money for shareholders by building products people want, and selling those products at a profit. They are not social welfare organizations designed to guarantee lifetime employment for employees.
Comments
So unemployment has become the new welfare program.
I notice how the Obama gov has continued to give the programs so they look like the good guys but the states get the bill for the continuing the program. This is operating just like Medicaid where the states are going to have increased costs for the fed expanding who receives Medicaid--a backdoor step to increasing socialized medicine.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is exactly right. A few smart governors tried to reject the money due to the strings attached. Once you offer more than the existing unemployment you are stuck with the new time frame. It is welfare pure and simple. A poor substitute for creating jobs. Something this administration has not done.
I've observed the change in "business activity" in this area of the country since the first quarter. The upchange in business is all that is saving this economy; but that's the normal progression of a recession. The increase in auto production, be it US makers or those who send the profits back to Japan (note toyota complaining about the exchange rate affecting how much money they get back from US), will help the economy in the end so $4C will help.
Note, my technique for business assessment is the type and number of trucks on the highways. Frequenting the I70 and I75 corridors I see the number of trucks and other business signs traveling around the Midwest. You could shoot a howitzer and not hit anything back in the First Quarter. Early summer the large semi numbers increased and, most importantly, the small box trucks moving "stuff" around the area in SW Ohio. Those box trucks represent the small businesses beginning to stir and get busier. Those business maintain and create new jobs. That I find important because we've lost so many jobs in the UAW through Delphi plant and GM plant closings. The temporaries at honda and toyota were let go, and that was even more jobs lost.
UAW pay jobs aren't coming back to here. But some higher-paying manufacturing jobs would be nice to replace the auto business UAW jobs that the Feds helped give away and the UAW workers' greed helped drive away.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FYI: the profits go to the shareholders, many of whom live outside of Japan. If you wanted to, you could buy shares in Toyota Motor Corp, which trades on the NYSE (symbol TM). In that case, your share of these profits would go to you - not to Tokyo.
The Top 5:
1. Virginia ($15,256 spent per capita)
2. Maryland ($13,829)
3. Alaska ($13,730).
4. Kentucky ($12,242)
5. New Mexico ($12,017)
The Bottom 5:
46. Minnesota ($7,326)
47. Oregon ($7,264)
48. Wisconsin ($7,132)
49. Nevada ($6,638)
50. Utah ($6,255)
http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/07/24/which-states-get-the-most-fede- ral-money/
" You fail to come to grips with the reality that the jobs have been shipped overseas"
YOU fail to come to grips with the reasons that jobs have been shipped overseas.
We are in a global economy whether the Union members like it or not. If they expect to keep the high paying jobs they have to work harder and smarter. The UAW workers have done neither. In fact they have blocked progress in the USA. The new Ford plant that ended up in Brazil along with the Olympics are prime examples of what the rest of the world think of US. Corporations do not want to waste money on workers that feel they are entitled to a job. Workers that believe their job is more important than the company making a profit. I hate to see US lose jobs overseas. But you cannot blame the corporations when they see the UAW striking GM when they are losing $40 billion in one year. A big share going to UAW retirees.
That is exactly right. It is for a set amount of months. In most cases 6 months or less. When the Feds throw in more money and extend the benefits it is WELFARE. It is like you getting an insurance policy for $10,000 and expecting the insurance company to pay you $20,000 when due. So far most of the stimulus money has done NOTHING to stimulate the economy. It has just been handed out as welfare in the form of added unemployment and covering mandated Medicaid programs.
We should be getting some work from those collecting the welfare. Give them a broom and a trash bag to clean up our streets and highways. Or a brush and paint to cover up the graffiti found everywhere. Plenty of work that needs to be done. Let's spend our tax dollars wisely by putting those on unemployment back to work for that money the tax payers are doling out.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
U.S. Postal Service, struggling with a massive $7 billion deficit caused by plummeting mail volume, spends more than a million dollars each week to pay thousands of employees to sit in empty rooms and do nothing.
It’s a practice called “standby time,” and it has existed for years — but postal employees say it was rarely used until this year. Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.
Mail volume is down 12.6 percent compared with last year, and many postal supervisors simply don’t have enough work to keep all employees busy. But a thicket of union rules prevents managers from laying off excess employees; a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them. So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year.
Hail Unions!
Regards,
OW
"a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them. So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year."
That's the one that really gets me. Other post offices need the help, and Union rules-skies prevent Managers from sending available(sitting on their butts)people over to help. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Reviewing September's detailed sales results in the car business carried at the Wall Street Journal, three things stick out immediately:
* The awful performance at General Motors -- down 45% from September 2008.
* Chrysler's even worse performance -- down "only" 42% from September 2008, but a mind-boggling 61% from September 2007 (62,197 in 2009, 156,799 in 2007)
* Ford's tiny decline of only 6% from a year ago, despite the end of the Cash For Clunkers program in August.
No other major maker had a year-over-year September decline that was even half of that seen at GM or Chrysler.
Yet the press, while beginning to acknowledge serious problems at the companies, both of which were first bailed out by the government and then taken through government-orchestrated, contract law-violating, UAW-favoring bankruptcies, still will not entertain the possibility, despite the evidence, that consumers are shunning them because of their bailed-out status and their heavy-handed tactics in bankruptcy.
Of course, the current Administration is in collusion with the UAW all the way. Too bad everyone looses in the current economy. The sad truth is that it did not have to be that way sans GREED.
The Congressional Oversight Panel has already said taxpayers will not see most of the $81 billion that they put into the American car industry. The $14.3 billion put into Chrysler is more and more likely to be lost completely. The biggest single loser if Chrysler cannot survive is the UAW which owns 55% of the company.
Regards,
OW
I guess it would not be convenient to mention that Honda and Toyota sales are down at approximately the same rate as Ford from a year ago, since that statistic would not fit the anti UAW agenda of some on this forum.
Thanks for reminding me why I rarely visit this forum anymore. Rocky was right to leave when he did.
au contraire tedebear -
It's very relevant and thoughtful of you to bring it up. Honda and Toyota sales ARE down... and yes, that's the same as Ford and GM - (but since you brought it up), the difference is that Honda and Toyota are better able to control their labor costs in times of poor sales as they are not burdened with the same kind of restrictive labor rules that the UAW imposes on companies.
So, yes, all their ships are taking on water in terms of bad sales... but Honda and Toyota have the advantage since they can more easily reassign all their sailors to bailing out their ships.
Got it?
Different union but "janitors are outraged after many of them were laid off from their jobs providing janitorial service for Toyota's National Sales and Marketing Headquarters in Torrance."
Loss of Toyota jobs ignites demonstration (ABC7 - LA)
I see mention of SEIU in that article. They'll have ACORN boycotting Toyota next. There's some poetic justice here seeing Toyota having problems the likes of what GM and others have gone through in the past as some people cheered.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And, considering the motivation, work ethic and lack of intelligence of the average (and sub-average) UAW "worker" (I should say..."position"), they will never comprehend the reason to work harder or smarter (to assume UAW can do ANYTHING smarter is assuming they have more brains than my Labrador retriever, and that is one assumption I would not make)...
To quote gagrice again..."We should be getting some work from those collecting the welfare. Give them a broom and a trash bag to clean up our streets and highways. Or a brush and paint to cover up the graffiti found everywhere. Plenty of work that needs to be done"...
While I was in Detroit, they actually did try and get welfare
cheatsrecipients to clean and sweep the streets, pick up trash in parks, etc...the UNION screamed bloody murder saying that a union member should be doing that job for union wages...now, you NEVER saw anybody picking up trash, so the city was a large landfill, but the union told everyone how they protected "jobs"...And the welfare
cheatsrecipients sat on their duffs doing nothing...which, I guess was their future training for the UAW Jobs Bank, eh???So I agree that programs like the WPA are preferable to extended unemployment checks. This President is too beholden to the Unions to ever propose such a plan.
My uncle works in construction, on a road/bridge crew, and he used to get laid off every year right around Christmas. He'd usually get called back to work sometime in March, but one year it got pushed out until late April, and he was getting worried.
He would get unemployment during that time off, although he still had to get out and look for a job. Kind of pointless though, to pick up some menial job, knowing that you're going to have to quit in a couple months when your company calls you back.
They're on a different contract now, and have year-round work, so he hasn't had that little Christmas "vacation" in probably 6 years or more. But I remember when he did, he'd be really active around the house, doing projects and such, and he'd help me with just about anything I needed. For about a month. Then he'd sort of just wind down and lose all motivation, until it he got called back to work.
What's that old cliche? Idle hands are the devil's workshop, or something like that?
Yeah, lots of overtime work there! Not to mention the few thousand they have busy sawing the bottom inch off 3 million accelerator pedals!
But see, like Marsha7 said, in many places the local governments can't/won't do that. The construction unions want all that kind of work to go to their members at the prevailing wages, which is a lot more than what they're collecting on unemployment. So you just can't take someone out of work and give them a shovel to go work on a construction project.
This is the question. Who is going to fuel the economy when the American consumer is gone? The American consumer has made America the envy of the world. What do you suppose we in America can sell (besides a Coke and a Big Mac) those under paid workers in China?
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/finger/2003/1001.html
That is absolutely false. The American inventor and entrepreneur have made America the envy of the World. The workers that are productive have been a plus. They can build nothing without the investment and a product to build. There in lies the problem. The UAW has pumped these non skilled workers full of lies. They make them believe they are indispensable. That is TOTAL ignorance. Anyone in any country in the World can be trained to put together a product someone else invents.
There is a Ford agency next to the Hotel I am staying at this week. They have a bunch of these cool little delivery vans called Transit Connect. They are made in Turkey. Engines are from Spain and the auto transmission is built in the USA. If the UAW keeps pushing Ford plants out of the US there will not be any work left as GM and C are all but history.
Whining about Chinese workers and their wages does not change anything. Even with your choice for Hope and Change last November.
Those nuts are the ones you should be mad at. But I get how almost 50% of American workers are brainwashed by the likes of Rush? slow LIMBO and Beck the peck-er.
The only hope for working Americans are the Unions and you are just to ignorant to know and to blind to see. I just hope you have a non union job and all the benifits they do not have, Like Walli World!!!!!!!! :confuse: :confuse:
There's an interesting side note to the Transit Connect van. There is still a tariff in effect on imported, non US-built trucks. In order to avoid this tariff, Ford imports the vans with seats and rear windows in them which classifies them as a passenger vehicle, so no trariff. As soon as they come off the boat, they go to a warehouse where the cheap back seats are removed, and the rear windows replaced with a sheet metal panel. Voila - passenger van -> delivery van in about 10 minutes.
So who is to buy those wiggets made overseas after all the good paying jobs are gone?
Dallasdude -
I think that you mistake "all the good paying jobs" with manufacturing jobs. Ain't so. Hasn't been so in about forever.
See below:
Manufacturing's share of the U.S. economy continues its 50-year decline. Last year, manufacturing GDP fell to an all-time low of just 12 percent of the economy, according to a Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI analysis of recent data from the Commerce Department.
"Both major segments of manufacturing--durable and nondurable industries--declined," according to MAPI. Durable manufacturing accounted for 7 percent of the economy last year, down from 9.2 percent in 1995. Nondurable manufacturing fell to just 5 percent of the economy, from 6.7 percent in 1995.
"Damn!",you say, "things have gotten really bad since the economy went to Hell in 2008!"
However that quote is from a 2006 article written well before the 'crash' of General Motors et al.
http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/computer-electronic-product-manufacturi- - ng/1182847-1.html
Further, manufacturing has never been more than 1/3 of the economy, even at its peak
In 1993, manufacturing as a percentage of the U.S. economy stood at 15.9 percent, down from its post World War II peak of 28.3 percent in 1953.
Now, you may rightly sulk that kids can no longer safely ignore their parents' warnings that all the good jobs will go to the kids who study in school, but is that wrong? Shouldn't the kids who study in school get the good jobs?
Not that the facts matter to you, but Bernie Madoff donated heavily to the Democratic Party, so I fail to see how he would have any sway with the Bush Administration.
basspro: The only hope for working Americans are the Unions and you are just to ignorant to know and to blind to see.
Most of us can see what the unions (and management) helped do to GM and Chrysler, so we'll pass.
basspro: I just hope you have a non union job and all the benifits they do not have, Like Walli World!!!!!!!!
Another union booster who has no clue as to how most people live and work. It helps to get out into the real world once in a blue moon.
It's funny, for years we in the U.S. felt bad for all the poor people of the world. We wanted them to have food and amenities like the rest of us. Now fast forward 20 years or so and the rest of the world is slowly catching up. Well that means of course that the US is going to have competition for products. Those poor people aren't going to catch up if their economies aren't producing valuable goods and services that make them more valuable and productive. It's going to creat a world economy rather than a highly US-centric economy.
So now that this is all happening there are us in the US that are moaning about the competition, about how we are no longer as predominant in the world. The US is STILL the biggest manufacturer in the world. We can make the best products if we quit moaning and channel all that energy to being smart, efficient, and flexible.
But of course our unions HATE smart, efficient, and flexible. They are the OPPOSITE of that.
I guess we were being disingenuous when we pretended that we wanted the rest of the world's poor to have it better.
That is a really sad statement. The unions are driving good jobs overseas.
Delphi Emerges from Bankruptcy...
The UAW has less than 400,000 members. From a peak of 1.5 million. Those jobs went overseas as a result of UAW not giving in when the auto makers were losing money. They went on strike last year when GM was losing $40 billion. That is what is meant by Unions sending jobs overseas. Anyone that cannot see that is blind to reality. And I am a retired Union member of 46 years. I don't hate Unions. Only ones like the UAW that have destroyed the influence Unions once had.
Simple.
This is happening to the USPS as we speak. It is a formula that has not been managed successfully to transition it into the future. Therefore, it is failing. Can't blame foreign countries for that nor the US Auto Industry failure afaic.
Regards,
OW
That's a pretty strong statement. Try life without a union and you might find a whole new world where people work together to make the best products, the highest efficiency. The U.S. used to work in that way, some industries still do. Just not the unionized portions of the US auto industry.
My "ignorance" started when about 25 years ago a coworker told me her husband (an accountant) could not carry computer printouts two floors in megacorp building. He would get in trouble as that would be hurting a union job! That's just STUPID!
WSJ: You were criticized for calling unionized Delphi workers overpaid. How should other bankrupt businesses deal with labor costs and unions?
Mr. Miller: Delphi's case was unique. Our labor costs were roughly triple what any other unionized U.S. [auto] supplier was bearing.
It was not my intention to take a hard line. The union leadership chose to portray it as a hard line. When I said, 'I can't afford $65 an hour for somebody mowing the lawn,' that was simply trying to explain some sources of our problem. It became an insult to many [Delphi] skilled workers. I regret it became so twisted.
My advice would be to work [issues] out directly with labor. As head of Bethlehem Steel, I met on a regular basis with the head of the steelworkers' union. I brought him to talk to my board about what we should be doing. It was a surprise and disappointment that I was unable to achieve that with the UAW.
Which shows that the UAW leadership is not interested in US corporations succeeding. When the jobs go overseas most times it is labor that forces them to leave this country. Non skilled labor should never be paid as much as skilled. That is what the UAW has done to destroy jobs in America. A fork lift operator making as much as a machinist is just ignorant. It was a Delphi fork lift operator that made the news when OT was cut and his $116k per year job was cut to $87k and he filed for bankruptcy.
Got it?
No, apparently you and a few other UAW haters on here do not get it. The official figures are now in for September 2009 versus September 2008. Honda sales are down 20% and Toyota sales are down 19%, while the UAW-run Ford is down just a mere 5%. Explain that one, boys and girls.
I guess it is convenient to mention the UAW when they have ties to a company that has slow sales during the recession but things quickly get passed over when other companies in the same industry are doing much worse. Gee, if the UAW are such a bunch of blood-sucking leeches, as some on here claim, then every UAW-run company should be doing much worse than any other.
Now go ahead and put your anti UAW spin on this. We're anxiously awaiting.
Elmer, as the elf, also explains how working conditions and wages had vastly improved. A segment set in 1900 shows a tired sweaty worker handing his wife a handful of change as he collapses into a chair in his rundown tenement apartment. The next segment set in the present (1950s) shows the same worker neatly dressed and vigorous coming home to his suburban house handing his wife a thick stack of bills. And then they both hop into his sleek new convertible for a picnic with the kids.
Heck, they should update this cartoon with the greedy Daffy Duck representing 21st Century Corporate America telling the shoemaker how he can close his factory in America, reopen it in China, and make windfall profits on the backs of dirt cheap foreign labor. Then we can see a segment where the unemployed American worker comes home exhausted with his pockets turned out after another fruitless day of job searching. His worried wife looks on with grave concern. Then the house gets foreclosed, the car is repossessed, and the kids have joined a street gang and are packing Glocks and slingin' rocks. The segment ends with the worker broke and homeless sitting on the railroad tracks with an empty malt liquor bottle in front of him awaiting an oncoming train.
Got it?
No, apparently you and a few other UAW haters on here do not get it. The official figures are now in for September 2009 versus September 2008. Honda sales are down 20% and Toyota sales are down 19%, while the UAW-run Ford is down just a mere 5%. Explain that one, boys and girls.
Ok - one more time. Yes, the sales of all the companies are down. However the profitability of Honda and Toyota isn't being damaged as badly as the Detroit companies because their expenses are more controllable.
For GM, Chrysler (and to a lesser extent) and Ford, labor costs are a fixed expense. Honda and Toyota can more easily reduce production, temporarily close plants and reduce labor costs.
Here's an artice (from April, so a little dated)
Honda profit dives 77% but remains in the black
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1033003_honda-profit-dives-77-but-remains-in-- - the-black
While many rivals, including industry juggernaut Toyota, are posting or expecting multi-billion dollar losses, Honda has booked a profit of $1.42 billion, though this is still down 77% from the previous year.
Further, for September 2009 Ford sales were down 13.3% (adjusted for selling days) vs. Honda's down 12%. Toyota's sales losses were 13.3%, same as Ford's)
SEE HERE: http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/157886/article.html
Oh, and another small lesson in reading statistics - Ford sales didn't fall as much in 2009 because they were already really low.... they didn't have as far to fall to reach them minimum 'loyal customer' bottom. They weren't very high in 2007 and fell father in 2008. So there wasn't as much room to drop. Got it this time?
As Expected, Ford Falls From 2nd Place in U.S. Sales 4 Jan 2008
Ford had the greatest decline. Its market share fell to 14.8 percent in 2007 from 16.4 a year earlier. Despite its recent push to sell more cars, they accounted for most of Ford’s decline.
You'll find this chart from from Ford informative :
http://www.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2008-09/economy-data-market- -
Well, one rationale I can think of is that Ford had been bleeding for awhile, and was already pretty wrecked as of September 2008. Ford depends more on sales of larger vehicles to keep it afloat, and larger vehicles are what took the big hit back in 2008 as fuel prices soared. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda were riding pretty high back in 2008, thanks to smaller vehicles like the Prius, Civic, Corolla, Yaris, Fit, and even the Camry/Accord, which get good fuel economy for their size.
So fast forward to 2009, the economy crashed, pretty much hurting demand for all vehicles, not just larger ones. Plus, fuel prices fell, and a lot of new-vehicle sales had already been pulled forward as buyers scrambled to buy smaller, more efficient cars, thinking those fuel prices would stay high forever.
Well, Ford had pretty much already fallen, so it didn't have much further to go. Toyota and Honda, however, did. And I'd presume Nissan took a pretty big hit as well.
Please note that the Democratic Party is a coalition of groups. Not every Democrat is a union member, anymore than every Republican is an evangelical Christian.
You do realized that a majority of Democrats opposed the bailout of GM and Chrysler?
mpcross: The throw away the worker mentality needs to stop.
One thing that helped kill GM was the "UAW workers have lifetime employment regardless of whether people are buying enough GM cars to keep them employed" mentality.
The idea that no one should ever lose their job has been tried; it failed. GM didn't fail because it threw the worker away; it failed in part because the UAW seemed to think that employment of its members by GM should be guaranteed regardless of the demand for GM products.
GM tried to make up for this in other areas - by dumping unwanted cars on fleet customers; by decontenting as much as possible; by using cheaper components whenever possible; by ignoring the lower profit segements while focusing on higher profit full-size trucks and SUVs. In the long run, these tactics came back to bite GM on the backside.
mpcross: my children need a good job. I do know how most people live and work and I also know how corporate America can never get enough money!! they care nothing about the worker and we must make them care with laws!! I DO SEE, I REALLY DO.
You - and other workers - have jobs because companies make things that people want to buy. If said company isn't making things that large numbers of people want to buy at prices high enough to enable said company to earn a profit, there is no reason for this company to exist.
Companies exist to make money for shareholders by building products people want, and selling those products at a profit. They are not social welfare organizations designed to guarantee lifetime employment for employees.