...and while we're talking about all the prosperity the UAW and auto industry model has brought to Michigan, take a look at this one:
"Pontiac -- The 80,300-seat Pontiac Silverdome will be auctioned off next month and sold to the highest bidder -- whether the bid is somewhere in the millions or pocket change.
Formerly the home of the Detroit Lions and the Pistons, the city-owned Silverdome opened in 1975. But the huge white-domed venue, which cost $55.7 million to build, became a white elephant when the Pistons moved up Interstate 75 to The Palace of Auburn Hills in 1988. The Lions left for Ford Field in Detroit in 2002.
The Silverdome has hosted some of the world's biggest names -- from Elvis to the Pope -- but in recent years, it has largely sat dark and empty.
Its $1.5-million-a-year upkeep has been a drain on the city of Pontiac, now beset by budget woes and supervised by Fred Leeb, a state-appointed emergency financial manager. The city has invested $100,000 in marketing and advertising the Silverdome's auction globally, he said.
"The Silverdome is a marquee property and in good condition, but the city can't run it properly, and it should be turned over to someone who can return it to a vibrant asset," Leeb said. "We're told there has already been considerable interest, but if the high bid is only $1, well, then that's it."
was built, the residents of Oakland County were promised that not a dime of taxpayer money would be used to support the Dome...when I arrived in 1980, the taxpayers were already "contributing" $800,000 yearly...
I had read that the Dome was literally designed for Pro Footbal and no other sports...hearing about the Pistons was news to me, as I thought they played in downtown Detroit...
The designed must have been UAW blood or former UAW blood because only a UAW union type would design a stadium that would be deserted so fast...kinda like the Big 3 auto companies since the 80s, when something better came along...and that something better didn't have to be too much better than the UAW made vehicles coming from Detroit...all Honda had to do was make a door that closed properly...
Publicly financed sports facilities are among the most irresponsible ways to spend tax dollars. More of the masses subsidizing the toys of the super-rich few.
I think the bonds on the old Kingdome in Seattle are not going to be paid off until 2016...it was demolished in 2000!
We don't have any Walmart Supercenters in CA due to restrictions. I went in a couple while on this vacation. They were both packed with customers. One in Indiana a UAW state and one in Minnesota also a strong Union state. My question is what Mom & Pop store could handle the traffic in any Walmart today? Most of the M&P operations were geared for very low volume in rural areas. I would bet they were not paying great wages or any benefits. The population is expanding rapidly and it takes companies like Costco and Walmart to handle the customer traffic.
"Most of the M&P operations were geared for very low volume in rural areas. I would bet they were not paying great wages or any benefits."...
M&P stores were established for M&P and their kids, maybe a local neighbor or two to make a few bucks...in principle, I have nothing against M&P, but they could not offer the retail selection of Walmart, who also started off as a rural store, just a much larger "five and dime"...
When the town also had only M&P stores, think of the time wasted as you had to go from store to store to get your hardware, your food, your sewing material, etc....all Walmart did was put it all under one roof as a "one stop shop"...so, all those who lament the loss of M&P stores obviously placed no value on the time lost from going from store to store...
The biggest plus for M&P stores was that they were "rustic and quaint", kinda like staying at a "bed & breakfast" instead of a hotel like Marriot or Hilton...so the THOUGHT of the "local shopkeeper" sounds so warm and fuzzy, but we do not want to admit that we really do like the larger selection and lower prices of Walmart...
And, for those who really want to avoid the Chinese goods, there are nicer stores in certain areas, just not in every town...plus, M&P may have had trouble competing with the Internet...
Still, M&P stores do exist for certain items (local tailor, local jeweler) where the personalized service is wanted and will be paid for by the buyer...but, really, who needs personal service to buy a can of corn???...so, M&P probably had their first attack from the SUPERMARKET, where you could choose 5 brands of canned corn instead of one, whereas as the M&P store only handled one brand...
Just like the UAW, M&P stores, for the most part, were useful until the 60s or 70s, but became extraneous buy the 1980s...both are dinosaurs...
....could pay people below the lawful minumum wage didn't mean he should. Didn't he realize the associates had families and bills to pay? Sam originally wanted the profit-sharing plan limited to the executives, but his wife said that he should extend it to the regular employees as well. Sam couldn't have built his empire without them and neither could have all those other "titans of industry." Go ahead, Sam! Run the cash registers, unload the trucks, and serve all the customers so you can get all the credit! Go ahead, Andy, and forge all those steel beams and rails so you alone get all the glory! Go ahead, Henry, and build all those millions of Model Ts by yourself for all the praise and acclaim!
When the town also had only M&P stores, think of the time wasted as you had to go from store to store to get your hardware, your food, your sewing material, etc....all Walmart did was put it all under one roof as a "one stop shop"...so, all those who lament the loss of M&P stores obviously placed no value on the time lost from going from store to store...
That's presuming you do all your shopping at once, which most people don't. And a lot of those M&P stores did carry a little bit of everything...it's just that "everything" wasn't as broad of a category back then as it is today.
Also, back in the day, you could often walk to an M&P store, or drive to one right around the corner, where nowadays you have to drive further to hit WalMart, wait in longer lines, etc. So time lost is a relative thing, depending on what you're shopping for.
I think they still have their purpose out in more rural locations. However, there's a Safeway, Giant, and SuperFresh grocery store within a two mile radius of my house. Stretch it to three miles and there's a Home Depot, Target, and Shoppers Food Warehouse.
One other thing to remember about those M&P stores, is that in many cases, they weren't the sole source of income, but more of a side thing. My grandmother's aunt and uncle used to have a store, which I think they operated until the early 1950's. However, her uncle worked for the federal gov't as a carpenter, while her aunt pretty much ran the store.
I think nowadays, WaWa, 7-Eleven, and those convenience stores built into gas stations have taken the place of the M&P store, moreso than big supermarkets, WalMart, etc.
Didn't he realize the associates had families and bills to pay?
What has that got to do with anything? Labor is strictly supply and demand. If a shelf stocker can make more at ABC store than Walmart, they should quit and take the better paying job. This idea that every job should pay enough to support a wife and family is scary. That was what was supposed to happen in the USSR and China. It did not work there and will not work anywhere. There is always someone smarter that will figure out how to make more than you. That upsets the utopian balance you seem to believe can exist. The same principle that was tried and failed in Russia was the model Reuther was trying to establish with the UAW. It has failed as well. Labor is only worth what someone is willing to take and someone is willing to give. It should start at home when the kid says to the dad I want $500 to mow the lawn. The dad says the neighbor kid will mow the lawn for $20. Who will he hire?
Henry Ford raised wages long before the UAW got a strangle hold on the auto industry. Because he was losing workers to other companies.
I recently hired some painters to stain our deck and paint the interior of our house. I got 3 bids and checked references (I was did avoid illegals even though I could have saved money). According to many on this board I guess I should have gone with the highest quote as it was 3 times the lowest, hey that would be the right thing to do, huh? BS!!! . Now I didn't go with the lowest, but the guy in the middle was only a few percent higher than the lowest and personal friend was happy with his work so I went that route.
I'll pay more if it's convenient for me, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay somebody more than I have too. Why would a business be any different. Like anything else if a company is not happy with the quality of employees at a certain skill and pay level, they will pay more and expect more. The idea we are all equal and worth the same simply is not the case.
My wife's employer pays cashiers a bit over minimum wage and Pharmacists over $55/hr. Why? Because the skill requirement is much higher and the supply of Pharmacists is much lower. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
I wonder what would happen if a union came in and said the cashier is worth every bit as the pharmacist and they had to pay $50/hr to the cashier? Well the company wouldn't be able to pay the pharmacist $50/hr long (not to mention the additional markup required to meet payroll) and/or people would decide, why go through all of the pain and expense of 6 years of education beyond high school, when I can just drop out of high school and make the same amount. In the end, that's where we'd be. No one would be able to get ahead. I guess I'm just a greedy capitalist.
I wonder what would happen if a union came in and said the cashier is worth every bit as the pharmacist and they had to pay $50/hr to the cashier?
That is exactly what the UAW has done for decades to the auto industry. Now look where they are. The most recent UAW strike at Bell Helicopter was to keep janitors making $30 per hour in TX. Janitors are only worth $30 per hour if no one will push a broom for less. I can guarantee there are PHD's willing to push a broom for half that or less right about now.
Is our standard of living erroding. Of course it is. It was inevitable. No society has been able to sustain a continuous gain without collapsing. So we either come down from our perch or collapse. The UAW and most public employee Unions are having difficulty accepting reality.
The USPS is a fine example of Union featherbedding and not being able to face reality. The postal service is becoming a dinosaur. Yet the postal worker Unions will not allow mandatory transfers from places that workers are not needed to growing areas.
NBC 4 reported with the FAST FACTS. The American Postal Workers Union claims the United States Postal Service will contract out 54 local truck driver jobs and close three Central Ohio post offices to help reduce costs.
I moved throughout my 46 year career to where I got the most $$ for my time. I am sitting in the fastest growing county in the USA this morning. Pinal county AZ is a place you can make $15 per hour and afford a 1900 sq foot home. This is a new subdivision my sis lives in and we looked at the models. $119k buys you a beautiful new home in a great new subdivision, with a waterpark. No money down and payments less than many are paying for rent. My advice to those out of work. Go where the work is and quit whining. I have been there and done that so I am speaking from experience as our friend Iluv has done many times. Those out of work UAW members have no one to blame but themselves and the Union for giving them a false sense of security. Cradle to grave is a concept that cannot work in a growing society. It is failing in most of the EU countries that have tried it.
M&P stores were established for M&P and their kids, maybe a local neighbor or two to make a few bucks...in principle, I have nothing against M&P, but they could not offer the retail selection of Walmart, who also started off as a rural store, just a much larger "five and dime"...
The whole fallacy of the argument is that old Sam Walton WAS one of the Moms and Pops. He just managed to grow his business more cleverly than all the other moms and pops, and out competed them. So now we bemoan that one of the M&Ps managed to outcompete the others and grow to a huge size. We should have kept those who couldn't compete successfully according the nostalgic point of view.
If you were a real "capitalist" as they exist today, you'd have hired the illegals and then whined about your own tax burden :P
LOL, I guess I have a few principles. I prefer to have someone who is bonded and legal to work around my house. It may be more of CYA than anything else. If the guy falls of a latter trying to paint a vaulted ceiling over a stair case, I'd rather not have to mess with someone's legal status when they take him out on a stretcher. I'll pay a little more for peace of mind.
I'll be damned if I'm going to pay somebody more than I have too. Why would a business be any different.
Well then you must be part of the "powers-that-be" and the "global elite" since you are trying to screw the worker! :P
Maybe I should have rephrased that since I did pay more than I had to. I could have gone with someone illegal and paid less, but I felt like I was getting something for the little extra I was paying.
...you get monkeys! Pretty soon your employees will be stealing from you to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon they'll be dealing drugs to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon they'll be driving up your taxes to pay for welfare, Medicaid, WIC, etc. to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon you're going to be too scared to go to your business in the 'hood that has degenerated into a violent ghetto because you and your fellow greedy capitalist colleagues pay everybody that lives there so poorly. Pretty soon somebody's going to drag your butt out of that S-Class or 7-Series and jack your ride when you're stopped on the corner near your business where you pay your employees so poorly they've resorted to crime and you're an easy target. Pretty soon a disgruntled employee is going to follow you home and commit a home invasion robbery and possibly kill you and your family to get your hoarded riches from paying him so poorly.
Colorado minimum wage to drop as living costs fall
By KRISTEN WYATT (AP) – 23 hours ago
DENVER — Colorado will become the first state to reduce its minimum wage because of a falling cost of living.
The state Department of Labor and Employment ordered the wage down to $7.24 from $7.28. That's lower than the federal minimum wage of $7.25, so most minimum wage workers would lose only 3 cents an hour.
Colorado is one of 10 states where the minimum wage is tied to inflation. The indexing is thought to protect low-wage workers from having flat wages as the cost of living goes up.
But because Colorado's provision allows wage declines, the minimum wage will drop because of a falling consumer price index. It will be the first decrease in any state since the federal minimum wage law was passed in 1938.
"We can't see that there would be any other option" except lowering the wage, department spokesman Bill Thoennes said Tuesday. He said there will still be a public hearing on the question in early November, though the drop appears inevitable. The lower wage will take effect Jan. 1.
I wonder how many people actually make minimum wage? Even entry level jobs in CA are above minimum wage. The starting wage in San Diego seems to be around $8.50 to $9.50 per hour.
Not everywhere is like Detroit & Philadelphia. I think if you did some research you would find the major areas of drug abuse among the youth of this country is in the affluent suburbs. As far as driving into the hood, I have avoided those areas for 50 years. On this current 5500 mile trip around the USA the largest city I went through was Evansville Indiana. And then I was on the Eastern edge of that relatively small city. You don't have to go into big cities unless you want to. Only a lamebrain would start a business in the ghettos of this country. The Big Cities have created their own hell. Those that live there should have to deal with it. Some residents are standing up to the thug mentality that big cities breed. I say good for them.
Sounds like Philadelphia could use a Sheriff Joe like they have in Phoenix. Put your criminals in pink shorts and feed em baloney sandwiches while they are living in tents all winter long.
It is not the wages that cause criminal behavior it is the criminal mind. You cannot pay a criminal enough to get them to give up their lives of crime.
I wonder how many people actually make minimum wage? Even entry level jobs in CA are above minimum wage. The starting wage in San Diego seems to be around $8.50 to $9.50 per hour.
I think the last time I had a minimum wage job was back in the summer of 1986. I worked that summer at a nursery school, doing outside work such as lawncare, painting, etc. It was $3.35 per hour back then, and I was 16. Towards the end of summer I got a job at a local veterinary clinic, and thought I was on top of the world, making $3.75!
Well, I also worked as a waiter back in 1989-90, and got less than minimum wage. But with tips, it came out to around $10/hour.
I can't remember what they paid me when I started delivering pizzas, as that was awhile ago now...but when I finally quit in October 2001, it was $6/hr plus tips. At that time, minimum wage was $5.15/hr
here in Arizona vows to keep up the good work, even though the Feds are claiming that he's going above and beyond what he's allowed to be able to do with current laws. He claims he does have that "tough on 'em" right.
Ya gotta admire his work ethic and attitude towards criminals. Why make things easy for them?
who actually puts in to play ideas many of us think about regarding criminals. Truly a unique Sheriff who does have the intestinal fortitude to implement innovative ideas.
GM and Chrysler and Ford execs should have been so thoughtful, too. I mean, you have to let your mind wander that direction, ya know.
Man, that just brought up the thought of rockford lee staying away from here for a long, long time. How can he continue to resist us like that? :shades:
So if you don't like what you make, it's the greedy boss's fault, thus it justifies stealing. Glad I don't live on the east coast with that type of mentality. What happened to the idea of trying to better yourself through some type of skill/education to increase your ability to earn a higher wage?
My wife and a few other family members have made very good livings working retail. They all did it by being valuable employees and were promoted from entry level near minimum wage jobs and earned their way to 6 figure jobs. So instead of making themselves more valuable to their employer's they should have just threatened to steal?
Ironically, when I worked in retail management I fired lots of people for stealing. Rarely was it for food, but usually drugs out of the pharmacy, alcohol, cigarettes, gift cards, and cash. I don't remember ever firing somebody for stealing food. It ranged from newly hired cashiers to seasoned $125k/yr Pharmacists.
It was the same way with the low life customers who stole. I've seen people hide beer and cigarettes under their baby. Nice! If they were stealing baby food or any type of food I could have some compassion, but when it's cigarettes and bottle of vodka I have no use for them and they are not entitled to anything but being behind bars.
Man, that just brought up the thought of rockford lee staying away from here for a long, long time.
Rocky may have gotten a high paying non union job and that has forced a light to come on. And he may not have Internet access at work. Blogging at night could cause problems if he got tied up with Beth. Hope he is doing well. I was not sure about that last job he had.
Wow, I didn't realize college was free! Where are minimum wage people going to get tuition for school? Are they supposed to starve and/or let their kids go hungry and sick? "Don't worry about that pesky malnutrition, Junior! We'll be livin' large just as soon as Daddy gets his MBA!"
"Chrysler Group LLC will not rehire nonunion engineers, designers or purchasing people who took buyouts last November, according to several who have inquired.
Just this week, the company called back about 14 UAW-represented designers, under an agreement with UAW Local 412."
"Pretty soon your employees will be stealing from you to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon they'll be dealing drugs to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon they'll be driving up your taxes to pay for welfare, Medicaid, WIC, etc. to supplement the meagre wages you pay. Pretty soon you're going to be too scared to go to your business in the 'hood that has degenerated into a violent ghetto because you and your fellow greedy capitalist colleagues pay everybody that lives there so poorly. Pretty soon somebody's going to drag your butt out of that S-Class or 7-Series and jack your ride when you're stopped on the corner near your business where you pay your employees so poorly they've resorted to crime and you're an easy target. Pretty soon a disgruntled employee is going to follow you home and commit a home invasion robbery and possibly kill you and your family to get your hoarded riches from paying him so poorly."
Your entire post reflects an entitlement attitude and an attitude that the worker should get what they want simply becaise they want it, regardless of what they are worth...
"Pretty soon your employees will be stealing from you to supplement the meagre wages you pay."...Those that steal should be shot or imprisoned...if they don't like the wage they have every right to go down the street and sell their labor for more money, if they can...they accepted the job I offered at the wage I offered...if it is shelf stocking, or lug nut tightening, they are lucky to be worth "minimum wage"...if they have to support a family of five, then somebidy needs to get some training, because the job is not worth a penny more just because someone has 3 kids to feed...and THAT is the problem with the UAW-type bleeding hearts on this board, they actually believe that floorsweeping is worth $1500.00 per week simply because the guy has 3 kids to feed and a $2000 monthly mortgage payment...the job has a value...if you want skilled wages, try earning or learning a skill that is in demand...
"Pretty soon they'll be dealing drugs to supplement the meagre wages you pay." ...that is THEIR choice, not mine...my previous response covers this, too...don't blame ME for their choice of a life of crime...you make it sound like it is MY fault that they dropped out of school in the 3rd grade and have no skills and can barely read, so I should reach into my pocket and part with more money that the floorsweeping job is worth...don't try and extort more money from me for their failure to act like an adult...they made their bed, don't ask me to buy them a hand-made mattress...if they were responsible, they would get training for something more skillful than broom pushing...
"Pretty soon they'll be driving up your taxes to pay for welfare, Medicaid, WIC, etc. to supplement the meagre wages you pay."...same response, lemko...rather than placing the monkey on the lackey who has no skills, you threaten me with higher taxes and more welfare...if the system worked only half-right, able bodied people would NOT be allowed to collect welfare, they would be be forced to clean streets or public bathrooms for any $$$ they receive from taxpayers...(this line of thinking does NOT apply to the disabled, just the able bodied...meaning those who CAN work, but choose not to do so)...
Lemko, you blame ME for the fault of everyone else who drops out of grade school, has no skills, but thinks that broom pushing is worth $1500.00 weekly...it is THEIR fault and we have a system that seems to advance the theory of "victim" when it really should be..."you stupid idiot, this is totally YOUR fault for dropping out of school and being lazy all your life...now the chickens have come home to roost, and, no, if you can't afford the iPod or Xbox, YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE UNTIL YOU CAN PAY FOR IT...you have no Constitutional right to ANY possession, especially luxury possessions"...
And if they decide on a life of crime, a career in burglary will be cut short by a society full of armed homeowners, who will protect their homes in a heartbeat...
Here in GA, once a burglar breaks the threshold of entering your home, the homeowner has the ABSOLUTE RIGHT (and societal duty, if you ask me) to use deadly force to stop the intruder...enough of those, and we'll just have to designate another space for "Boot Hill 2"...
There is your economics lesson for today...lose the UAW-type thinking, and this will make perfect sense...once you realize that workers do NOT have the right to dictate their wages, the world becomes a better place...
The beatings will continue until morale improves...:):):)
Wow, I didn't realize college was free! Where are minimum wage people going to get tuition for school? Are they supposed to starve and/or let their kids go hungry and sick? "Don't worry about that pesky malnutrition, Junior! We'll be livin' large just as soon as Daddy gets his MBA!"
Well, unfortunately for many, their fate was sealed when they decided they no longer needed to finish high school, let alone college. Look at the HS graduation rates for our big cities, it's pathetic. Philadelphia has a graduation rate of around 50% and that's actually high compared to the likes of NY, Detroit, Cleveland etc. How can anyone expect to earn a comfortable living in this day and age w/o finishing HS?
Can you even get a skilled union job anymore w/o a diploma? I would seriously doubt it.
"Wow, I didn't realize college was free! Where are minimum wage people going to get tuition for school? Are they supposed to starve and/or let their kids go hungry and sick?"...they do what everybody else who has a sense of responsibility does...they sacrifice and work for it...what is so hard to accept???...College is not free, but student loans and grants are EVERYWHERE...maybe somebody with a little brains might even get a scholarship to help attend school...not everyone has to go to Harvard or Yale...state schools do a pretty good job...
Should they starve???...better question...should I be forced to pay them $35/hour to sweep a floor when someone else will do it for $5/hour???...oops, $7.25 per hour???...(still barely worth $5/hour, but must comply with Federal law)...
This is simple...it is a concept that may be foreign to you, called "paying the price and sacrificing for what you want in life"...they will do without all the goodies of life until the education is done and the skilled job is attained...
I sincerely doubt the children will starve...that is just the silly come-on for Sally Struthers and Rwanda or Ethiopia, which do NOT have a food shortage, they have dictator problems who refuses to distribute the food to the people...
Your postings have the flavor of UAW-entitlement, like they deserve it for free because they want it...that attitude did not exist until the Great Society of 1965...oh, to be able to go back to the Era of Responsibilty, which lasted thousands of years until 1965 and Lyndon Johnson...
Ever notice when urban rioters are looting, they always loot the stores that carry life's "basic necessities", like plasma TVs, stereos, liquor, but they never steal lif'e's "luxuries", like bread, milk, butter eggs, cheese, soap, etc???... ever wonder how well the kids eat that stolen plasma TV, or is it just me?????
Hey, tell rocky we miss him...get an update for us...is he with Beth, does he sell cars, who does he work for (generically speaking, of course), how is he doing, is he still in Grand Rapids or has he left Michigan...was he the one who turned out the lights as he left???
Gagrice - Some residents are standing up to the thug mentality that big cities breed. I say good for them
Marsha7 - And if they decide on a life of crime, a career in burglary will be cut short by a society full of armed homeowners, who will protect their homes in a heartbeat...
Did any of you hear about the Johns Hopkins University student in Baltimore - not sure if this made the national scene or not. Evidently, he surprised a burglar (long rap sheet, just got out of the slammer) in his garage, at night. According to news reports, the burglar charged at the student. Turned out the student had armed himself with a Samurai sword and swung at the burglar, hitting him along the neck and severing his hand. The burglar bled to death before help could arise. So far, it has been ruled justified and no charges filed against the student.
I did manage to graduate high school and go on to college and graduate school. Trouble is, not everybody has the mental or financial ability to do what I did. I was incredibly lucky. My friends and neighbors were not so lucky. They are a bunch of blue collar guys doing the best that they can with limited resources. If something is detrimental to them, it becomes my problem as well. I'm not about to let my beautiful neighborhood deteriorate into a crime-infested ghetto because of unseen economic forces and the greedy ambitions of a few short-sighted men.
No, I am not going to run away to the suburbs like some dog with its tail between its legs. I've always viewed people who ran away to suburbia as cowards who will soon realize that one cannot run away from crime and blight as it will follow you. It is already in the inner-ring suburbs. Where are you going to run next? You've get to take a stand!
In the news, well, Boeing has a deal pending, Deere's deal have been ratified, and UAW officials have approved Ford's deal. It might turn out to be a boring winter.
"I did manage to graduate high school and go on to college and graduate school. Trouble is, not everybody has the mental or financial ability to do what I did. I was incredibly lucky. My friends and neighbors were not so lucky. They are a bunch of blue collar guys doing the best that they can with limited resources"
Your problem is simple...you expect equality of outcome, a typical left-wing socialist concept, whereas this country SHOULD stand for equality of opportunity, where everyone has the same LEGAL opportunity to better themselves...remember, Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout, but still had some brains he could use...
Plus, your UAW friends, if they started working at age 18, fresh out of high school, were 10 years into pension vesting at age 28...most grad students barely have a full time job at age 28, as they have been going to school, so blue collar workers, like our beloved UAW, have had their pensions secure by the time most of us grad students have gotten started earning our pay...
It's called opportunity cost...simply, by choosing one thing, you must forego the other...you cannot choose BOTH forks in the road, you must choose one and give up the other...
Stay in the city, I admire your attitude...but do not come down on those of us who want to desert the inner city scene...we are NOT cowards...we just don''t want to bother trying to reform a neighborhood when we have better things to do with our lives...you want to spend your time reforming???...feel free to do so, just don't expect me to follow you like a puppy...
Plus, when you shoot an intruder in an apartment complex, you run the risk of hitting a neighbor...when you own the home with half an acre, there is SO MUCH more space and time to take careful aim and shoot the intruder before he gets away, so living in the suburbs is a SAFETY factor when it comes to using deadly force to eliminate the population of the worthless...:):):)
Well, I own my own home and don't live in an apartment complex, so I'm invested in my neighborhood and am willing to protect that investment. I also applaud you upholding your Second Amendment Rights. I do believe in one's right to gun ownership for self-defense and protection for their home and family.
Do remember Sunoco closing up a refinery because they don't like the market and putting all those folks out of work the next time they are screaming that the whole problem is a new refinery hasn't been built lately in this country.
Refining gasoline is just another thing we're outsourcing.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Whoa, I've been reading some of the different posts in this thread and I think we need some chill pills. I totally agree in the risk reward concept, but honestly there is some luck and incidental timing involved in life as well. I think an individual's value and worth goes far beyond what degrees they hold. There are plenty of schmucks and "book smart" duds with impressive academic credentials and some very smart people that didn't go to engineering, business or grad school.
I think there is a bit of educational elitism in some of the posts in this forum that seem to feel anyone doing blue collar work should make around minimum wage. A lot of blue collar work also requires smarts and can be hard and demanding physically on the body. Some may be overpaid and some underpaid just like many white collar workers and professions. Actually, I think the bigger problem from some unions is overly restrictive work rules hindering efficiency and investment. But on an economic basis, a viewpoint of massively cutting blue collar wages is short-sighted. This action will likely quickly lead to significant deflation since most people aren't college graduates or in professional careers. So the resulting big loss generated in wages means demand will quickly dry up hitting company top and bottom lines (salary cut savings will be more than offset by inability to fully absorb fixed overhead in such a situation). That means the white collar college grads will start seeing job losses, pay cuts and benefit changes (and a lot worse than what we are seeing today) from office and plant closings around the country. It also means retirees will have cuts or elimination to their pensions, while the value of personal owned homes, assets and investments tank.. IMO the goal should be gaining greater cooperation, efficiency and innovation between all types of employees rather than large salary cuts since the latter hurts the overall economy. As for improving global competitiveness through large scale wage cuts, I think this thought is also misguided. The aforementioned deflation will obliterate the dollar further decreasing our global competiveness. Yes, we will be pricing our goods much cheaper in overseas markets, but unfortunately an unstable and badly wounded dollar will significantly impair financing of our nation. No credit, no sale! In fact, such a scenario may well lead large multinational corporations currently based here to relocate overseas since base of operations require financial stability (if it was just "cheapest", they would have left long ago). Beware those who espouse easily fixing our economy through weakening the dollar - short term fixes tend to lead to long term problems. Finally, you can't only compare salary rates around the globe. There are efficiency factors, transportation costs, benefits costs, currency exchange rates, regulatory and business environment costs, etc. that all impact the true total cost at any given location and operation. Globally, we must be competitive on costs, but not necessarily cheapest.
As for the discussions on geographic locations around this country, I think we should celebrate and learn from regional differences. The different places I've lived in or traveled to taught me that there are good and not so good traits everywhere. Also, there are economically and socially strong urban, suburban and rural areas and vice versa. I think these differences are really things that make America strong rather than a bunch of lemmings which is why we have generally been a successful nation. Personally, I find homogenizing thought or actions tends to lead to mediocrity.
There are plenty of schmucks and "book smart" duds with impressive academic credentials
That describes my worthless brother-in-law to a "T!" The guy has a Ph.D and he's living in my wife's mother's basement for free, doesn't even pay utilities, and has trashed the place. He left his wife in Connecticut, had his house foreclosed, works some crappy job, and his finances would make a CPA blanch.
I agree with your post. I know lots of extremely smart blue collar type people that are extremely skilled and work hard. I'm not talking about those people. I have several friends that are business owners (machine shops, masonry, plumbing, storage tank services), none have a college degree, but they have a skill, brains, and took a risk, by investing their money and time into a business (also employing many other skilled people). It has paid off for them, they've essentially dictated how much they want to make.
But if you drop out of high school w/o any type of skill, I don't know how you can expect anyone to owe you anything. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't even thing the union hall would accept an apprentice w/o a HS diploma.
That of course must be final proof that it's not worthy getting any education, not to mention higher education and advanced degrees are total waste of time and usually awarderd to people with no ambition or abilities. Evrybody knows that degree is not a certificate of worthiness and definitely no guarantee of great job. It is though an "option enabler". With degree one has at least a theoretical opportunity of getting a good job - it's up to an individual (95%) and circumstances (5%) to actually walk through that door. With degree you can be an engineer, lawyer, doctor, teacher, astronaut, OR you can tighten lug nuts, sweep floors or work on an assembly line. Without a degree you can do only the latter.
Job is like any other product. The more proprietary content or desirable product it is, the better pay and security. The more generic the content and competition, the lower the pay and higher vulnerability. If there is one opening and twenty guys within a mile able to do the same thing, the is $10/hr or less. If there are twenty openings and one guy within 500 miles, the rate is much more. Perhaps not always, but often enough.
"I think there is a bit of educational elitism in some of the posts in this forum that seem to feel anyone doing blue collar work should make around minimum wage. A lot of blue collar work also requires smarts "...
Believe it or not, I never implied that blue collar work should be held to minimum wage...I have said, repeatedly, that UNSKILLED labor has little economic value, and should be paid accordingly...I use UAW assembly work as the epitome of unskilled labor...I have also never said that only college educated folks should be well paid, but at the same time, even tho a college degree (or technical certification) is no guarantee of a job, I would find it very hard to advocate to any teenager that they should drop out of school in the 10th grade and expect to make a good living...
So, I do default to telling virtually anyone that getting an education will almost always err of the side of the right thing to do...for one, that may be college and grad school, for another that may be certification as an electrician or a plumber, or a computer degree at DeVry Institute...
I do NOT hold my (formal) education over anybody, as I know too many folks w/o college that know so much more than me...besides, with the number of lawyers we have in the US, it is hard to imagine that my law school education is anything special ( :P )...let's face it, lawyers are a dime a dozen...
My harping has always been on simply lug nut tighteners and floorsweepers thinking they are worth $35/hour because of the "skill" involved in what they do...is it honest work???...you bet, and I never said otherwise...but is floorsweeping a "skill?"...I would be hard pressed to see it that way...
And I would be hard pressed to see anything done by the UAW as "skilled" since, according to our own (former) rocky, it was those "dropout toothless redneck hicks" that migrated from the South and took those jobs in the auto plants making cars, so if all it took was to train a "dropout toothless redneck hick" to make a car, then you could probably teach a child, or some other lesser primate to do that job...chances are, the lesser primates would not even demand 30 minute coffee breaks, just a couple of bananas or kibbles every few hours... :P
But don't EVER think that I look down on those with less (formal) education than me...what I DON'T know would fill volumes, and what I learn from those who do something other than me is rewarding...don't forget, I grew up making starters and alternators, cutting discs and drums, performing valve jobs...I grew up blue collar and I have rolled in enough grease and dirt, so I know what it is...I NEVER forget where I came from...
Speaking of rocky, does anyone have any updates with specificity???
Comments
"Pontiac -- The 80,300-seat Pontiac Silverdome will be auctioned off next month and sold to the highest bidder -- whether the bid is somewhere in the millions or pocket change.
Formerly the home of the Detroit Lions and the Pistons, the city-owned Silverdome opened in 1975. But the huge white-domed venue, which cost $55.7 million to build, became a white elephant when the Pistons moved up Interstate 75 to The Palace of Auburn Hills in 1988. The Lions left for Ford Field in Detroit in 2002.
The Silverdome has hosted some of the world's biggest names -- from Elvis to the Pope -- but in recent years, it has largely sat dark and empty.
Its $1.5-million-a-year upkeep has been a drain on the city of Pontiac, now beset by budget woes and supervised by Fred Leeb, a state-appointed emergency financial manager. The city has invested $100,000 in marketing and advertising the Silverdome's auction globally, he said.
"The Silverdome is a marquee property and in good condition, but the city can't run it properly, and it should be turned over to someone who can return it to a vibrant asset," Leeb said. "We're told there has already been considerable interest, but if the high bid is only $1, well, then that's it."
I had read that the Dome was literally designed for Pro Footbal and no other sports...hearing about the Pistons was news to me, as I thought they played in downtown Detroit...
The designed must have been UAW blood or former UAW blood because only a UAW union type would design a stadium that would be deserted so fast...kinda like the Big 3 auto companies since the 80s, when something better came along...and that something better didn't have to be too much better than the UAW made vehicles coming from Detroit...all Honda had to do was make a door that closed properly...
I think the bonds on the old Kingdome in Seattle are not going to be paid off until 2016...it was demolished in 2000!
We don't have any Walmart Supercenters in CA due to restrictions. I went in a couple while on this vacation. They were both packed with customers. One in Indiana a UAW state and one in Minnesota also a strong Union state. My question is what Mom & Pop store could handle the traffic in any Walmart today? Most of the M&P operations were geared for very low volume in rural areas. I would bet they were not paying great wages or any benefits. The population is expanding rapidly and it takes companies like Costco and Walmart to handle the customer traffic.
I wonder if you bought it for a buck whether there would be enough parts to sell off before you went broke...
M&P stores were established for M&P and their kids, maybe a local neighbor or two to make a few bucks...in principle, I have nothing against M&P, but they could not offer the retail selection of Walmart, who also started off as a rural store, just a much larger "five and dime"...
When the town also had only M&P stores, think of the time wasted as you had to go from store to store to get your hardware, your food, your sewing material, etc....all Walmart did was put it all under one roof as a "one stop shop"...so, all those who lament the loss of M&P stores obviously placed no value on the time lost from going from store to store...
The biggest plus for M&P stores was that they were "rustic and quaint", kinda like staying at a "bed & breakfast" instead of a hotel like Marriot or Hilton...so the THOUGHT of the "local shopkeeper" sounds so warm and fuzzy, but we do not want to admit that we really do like the larger selection and lower prices of Walmart...
And, for those who really want to avoid the Chinese goods, there are nicer stores in certain areas, just not in every town...plus, M&P may have had trouble competing with the Internet...
Still, M&P stores do exist for certain items (local tailor, local jeweler) where the personalized service is wanted and will be paid for by the buyer...but, really, who needs personal service to buy a can of corn???...so, M&P probably had their first attack from the SUPERMARKET, where you could choose 5 brands of canned corn instead of one, whereas as the M&P store only handled one brand...
Just like the UAW, M&P stores, for the most part, were useful until the 60s or 70s, but became extraneous buy the 1980s...both are dinosaurs...
That's presuming you do all your shopping at once, which most people don't. And a lot of those M&P stores did carry a little bit of everything...it's just that "everything" wasn't as broad of a category back then as it is today.
Also, back in the day, you could often walk to an M&P store, or drive to one right around the corner, where nowadays you have to drive further to hit WalMart, wait in longer lines, etc. So time lost is a relative thing, depending on what you're shopping for.
I think they still have their purpose out in more rural locations. However, there's a Safeway, Giant, and SuperFresh grocery store within a two mile radius of my house. Stretch it to three miles and there's a Home Depot, Target, and Shoppers Food Warehouse.
One other thing to remember about those M&P stores, is that in many cases, they weren't the sole source of income, but more of a side thing. My grandmother's aunt and uncle used to have a store, which I think they operated until the early 1950's. However, her uncle worked for the federal gov't as a carpenter, while her aunt pretty much ran the store.
I think nowadays, WaWa, 7-Eleven, and those convenience stores built into gas stations have taken the place of the M&P store, moreso than big supermarkets, WalMart, etc.
What has that got to do with anything? Labor is strictly supply and demand. If a shelf stocker can make more at ABC store than Walmart, they should quit and take the better paying job. This idea that every job should pay enough to support a wife and family is scary. That was what was supposed to happen in the USSR and China. It did not work there and will not work anywhere. There is always someone smarter that will figure out how to make more than you. That upsets the utopian balance you seem to believe can exist. The same principle that was tried and failed in Russia was the model Reuther was trying to establish with the UAW. It has failed as well. Labor is only worth what someone is willing to take and someone is willing to give. It should start at home when the kid says to the dad I want $500 to mow the lawn. The dad says the neighbor kid will mow the lawn for $20. Who will he hire?
Henry Ford raised wages long before the UAW got a strangle hold on the auto industry. Because he was losing workers to other companies.
I recently hired some painters to stain our deck and paint the interior of our house. I got 3 bids and checked references (I was did avoid illegals even though I could have saved money). According to many on this board I guess I should have gone with the highest quote as it was 3 times the lowest, hey that would be the right thing to do, huh? BS!!! . Now I didn't go with the lowest, but the guy in the middle was only a few percent higher than the lowest and personal friend was happy with his work so I went that route.
I'll pay more if it's convenient for me, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay somebody more than I have too. Why would a business be any different. Like anything else if a company is not happy with the quality of employees at a certain skill and pay level, they will pay more and expect more. The idea we are all equal and worth the same simply is not the case.
My wife's employer pays cashiers a bit over minimum wage and Pharmacists over $55/hr. Why? Because the skill requirement is much higher and the supply of Pharmacists is much lower. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
I wonder what would happen if a union came in and said the cashier is worth every bit as the pharmacist and they had to pay $50/hr to the cashier? Well the company wouldn't be able to pay the pharmacist $50/hr long (not to mention the additional markup required to meet payroll) and/or people would decide, why go through all of the pain and expense of 6 years of education beyond high school, when I can just drop out of high school and make the same amount. In the end, that's where we'd be. No one would be able to get ahead. I guess I'm just a greedy capitalist.
That is exactly what the UAW has done for decades to the auto industry. Now look where they are. The most recent UAW strike at Bell Helicopter was to keep janitors making $30 per hour in TX. Janitors are only worth $30 per hour if no one will push a broom for less. I can guarantee there are PHD's willing to push a broom for half that or less right about now.
Is our standard of living erroding. Of course it is. It was inevitable. No society has been able to sustain a continuous gain without collapsing. So we either come down from our perch or collapse. The UAW and most public employee Unions are having difficulty accepting reality.
The USPS is a fine example of Union featherbedding and not being able to face reality. The postal service is becoming a dinosaur. Yet the postal worker Unions will not allow mandatory transfers from places that workers are not needed to growing areas.
NBC 4 reported with the FAST FACTS.
The American Postal Workers Union claims the United States Postal Service will contract out 54 local truck driver jobs and close three Central Ohio post offices to help reduce costs.
http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/local/article/USPS_Set_To_Make_Some_Changes_In_Ce- - ntral_Ohio/21116/
I moved throughout my 46 year career to where I got the most $$ for my time. I am sitting in the fastest growing county in the USA this morning. Pinal county AZ is a place you can make $15 per hour and afford a 1900 sq foot home. This is a new subdivision my sis lives in and we looked at the models. $119k buys you a beautiful new home in a great new subdivision, with a waterpark. No money down and payments less than many are paying for rent. My advice to those out of work. Go where the work is and quit whining. I have been there and done that so I am speaking from experience as our friend Iluv has done many times. Those out of work UAW members have no one to blame but themselves and the Union for giving them a false sense of security. Cradle to grave is a concept that cannot work in a growing society. It is failing in most of the EU countries that have tried it.
The whole fallacy of the argument is that old Sam Walton WAS one of the Moms and Pops. He just managed to grow his business more cleverly than all the other moms and pops, and out competed them. So now we bemoan that one of the M&Ps managed to outcompete the others and grow to a huge size. We should have kept those who couldn't compete successfully according the nostalgic point of view.
Well then you must be part of the "powers-that-be" and the "global elite" since you are trying to screw the worker! :P
LOL, I guess I have a few principles. I prefer to have someone who is bonded and legal to work around my house. It may be more of CYA than anything else. If the guy falls of a latter trying to paint a vaulted ceiling over a stair case, I'd rather not have to mess with someone's legal status when they take him out on a stretcher. I'll pay a little more for peace of mind.
Well then you must be part of the "powers-that-be" and the "global elite" since you are trying to screw the worker! :P
Maybe I should have rephrased that since I did pay more than I had to. I could have gone with someone illegal and paid less, but I felt like I was getting something for the little extra I was paying.
Pretty soon you're going to be too scared to go to your business in the 'hood that has degenerated into a violent ghetto because you and your fellow greedy capitalist colleagues pay everybody that lives there so poorly. Pretty soon somebody's going to drag your butt out of that S-Class or 7-Series and jack your ride when you're stopped on the corner near your business where you pay your employees so poorly they've resorted to crime and you're an easy target. Pretty soon a disgruntled employee is going to follow you home and commit a home invasion robbery and possibly kill you and your family to get your hoarded riches from paying him so poorly.
Was it worth it?
By KRISTEN WYATT (AP) – 23 hours ago
DENVER — Colorado will become the first state to reduce its minimum wage because of a falling cost of living.
The state Department of Labor and Employment ordered the wage down to $7.24 from $7.28. That's lower than the federal minimum wage of $7.25, so most minimum wage workers would lose only 3 cents an hour.
Colorado is one of 10 states where the minimum wage is tied to inflation. The indexing is thought to protect low-wage workers from having flat wages as the cost of living goes up.
But because Colorado's provision allows wage declines, the minimum wage will drop because of a falling consumer price index. It will be the first decrease in any state since the federal minimum wage law was passed in 1938.
"We can't see that there would be any other option" except lowering the wage, department spokesman Bill Thoennes said Tuesday. He said there will still be a public hearing on the question in early November, though the drop appears inevitable. The lower wage will take effect Jan. 1.
I wonder how many people actually make minimum wage? Even entry level jobs in CA are above minimum wage. The starting wage in San Diego seems to be around $8.50 to $9.50 per hour.
Sounds like Philadelphia could use a Sheriff Joe like they have in Phoenix. Put your criminals in pink shorts and feed em baloney sandwiches while they are living in tents all winter long.
It is not the wages that cause criminal behavior it is the criminal mind. You cannot pay a criminal enough to get them to give up their lives of crime.
I think the last time I had a minimum wage job was back in the summer of 1986. I worked that summer at a nursery school, doing outside work such as lawncare, painting, etc. It was $3.35 per hour back then, and I was 16. Towards the end of summer I got a job at a local veterinary clinic, and thought I was on top of the world, making $3.75!
Well, I also worked as a waiter back in 1989-90, and got less than minimum wage. But with tips, it came out to around $10/hour.
I can't remember what they paid me when I started delivering pizzas, as that was awhile ago now...but when I finally quit in October 2001, it was $6/hr plus tips. At that time, minimum wage was $5.15/hr
Ya gotta admire his work ethic and attitude towards criminals. Why make things easy for them?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ya gotta admire his work ethic and attitude towards criminals. Why make things easy for them?
He should come out to DC then. Lots of criminals out here. Especially in that big domed building on the Mall. :P
GM and Chrysler and Ford execs should have been so thoughtful, too. I mean, you have to let your mind wander that direction, ya know.
Man, that just brought up the thought of rockford lee staying away from here for a long, long time. How can he continue to resist us like that? :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My wife and a few other family members have made very good livings working retail. They all did it by being valuable employees and were promoted from entry level near minimum wage jobs and earned their way to 6 figure jobs. So instead of making themselves more valuable to their employer's they should have just threatened to steal?
Ironically, when I worked in retail management I fired lots of people for stealing. Rarely was it for food, but usually drugs out of the pharmacy, alcohol, cigarettes, gift cards, and cash. I don't remember ever firing somebody for stealing food. It ranged from newly hired cashiers to seasoned $125k/yr Pharmacists.
It was the same way with the low life customers who stole. I've seen people hide beer and cigarettes under their baby. Nice! If they were stealing baby food or any type of food I could have some compassion, but when it's cigarettes and bottle of vodka I have no use for them and they are not entitled to anything but being behind bars.
LOL!!!!!! Isn't that the truth.
Rocky may have gotten a high paying non union job and that has forced a light to come on. And he may not have Internet access at work. Blogging at night could cause problems if he got tied up with Beth. Hope he is doing well. I was not sure about that last job he had.
But ...
"Chrysler Group LLC will not rehire nonunion engineers, designers or purchasing people who took buyouts last November, according to several who have inquired.
Just this week, the company called back about 14 UAW-represented designers, under an agreement with UAW Local 412."
Pretty soon you're going to be too scared to go to your business in the 'hood that has degenerated into a violent ghetto because you and your fellow greedy capitalist colleagues pay everybody that lives there so poorly. Pretty soon somebody's going to drag your butt out of that S-Class or 7-Series and jack your ride when you're stopped on the corner near your business where you pay your employees so poorly they've resorted to crime and you're an easy target. Pretty soon a disgruntled employee is going to follow you home and commit a home invasion robbery and possibly kill you and your family to get your hoarded riches from paying him so poorly."
Your entire post reflects an entitlement attitude and an attitude that the worker should get what they want simply becaise they want it, regardless of what they are worth...
"Pretty soon your employees will be stealing from you to supplement the meagre wages you pay."...Those that steal should be shot or imprisoned...if they don't like the wage they have every right to go down the street and sell their labor for more money, if they can...they accepted the job I offered at the wage I offered...if it is shelf stocking, or lug nut tightening, they are lucky to be worth "minimum wage"...if they have to support a family of five, then somebidy needs to get some training, because the job is not worth a penny more just because someone has 3 kids to feed...and THAT is the problem with the UAW-type bleeding hearts on this board, they actually believe that floorsweeping is worth $1500.00 per week simply because the guy has 3 kids to feed and a $2000 monthly mortgage payment...the job has a value...if you want skilled wages, try earning or learning a skill that is in demand...
"Pretty soon they'll be dealing drugs to supplement the meagre wages you pay." ...that is THEIR choice, not mine...my previous response covers this, too...don't blame ME for their choice of a life of crime...you make it sound like it is MY fault that they dropped out of school in the 3rd grade and have no skills and can barely read, so I should reach into my pocket and part with more money that the floorsweeping job is worth...don't try and extort more money from me for their failure to act like an adult...they made their bed, don't ask me to buy them a hand-made mattress...if they were responsible, they would get training for something more skillful than broom pushing...
"Pretty soon they'll be driving up your taxes to pay for welfare, Medicaid, WIC, etc. to supplement the meagre wages you pay."...same response, lemko...rather than placing the monkey on the lackey who has no skills, you threaten me with higher taxes and more welfare...if the system worked only half-right, able bodied people would NOT be allowed to collect welfare, they would be be forced to clean streets or public bathrooms for any $$$ they receive from taxpayers...(this line of thinking does NOT apply to the disabled, just the able bodied...meaning those who CAN work, but choose not to do so)...
Lemko, you blame ME for the fault of everyone else who drops out of grade school, has no skills, but thinks that broom pushing is worth $1500.00 weekly...it is THEIR fault and we have a system that seems to advance the theory of "victim" when it really should be..."you stupid idiot, this is totally YOUR fault for dropping out of school and being lazy all your life...now the chickens have come home to roost, and, no, if you can't afford the iPod or Xbox, YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE UNTIL YOU CAN PAY FOR IT...you have no Constitutional right to ANY possession, especially luxury possessions"...
And if they decide on a life of crime, a career in burglary will be cut short by a society full of armed homeowners, who will protect their homes in a heartbeat...
Here in GA, once a burglar breaks the threshold of entering your home, the homeowner has the ABSOLUTE RIGHT (and societal duty, if you ask me) to use deadly force to stop the intruder...enough of those, and we'll just have to designate another space for "Boot Hill 2"...
There is your economics lesson for today...lose the UAW-type thinking, and this will make perfect sense...once you realize that workers do NOT have the right to dictate their wages, the world becomes a better place...
The beatings will continue until morale improves...:):):)
Well, unfortunately for many, their fate was sealed when they decided they no longer needed to finish high school, let alone college. Look at the HS graduation rates for our big cities, it's pathetic. Philadelphia has a graduation rate of around 50% and that's actually high compared to the likes of NY, Detroit, Cleveland etc. How can anyone expect to earn a comfortable living in this day and age w/o finishing HS?
Can you even get a skilled union job anymore w/o a diploma? I would seriously doubt it.
Should they starve???...better question...should I be forced to pay them $35/hour to sweep a floor when someone else will do it for $5/hour???...oops, $7.25 per hour???...(still barely worth $5/hour, but must comply with Federal law)...
This is simple...it is a concept that may be foreign to you, called "paying the price and sacrificing for what you want in life"...they will do without all the goodies of life until the education is done and the skilled job is attained...
I sincerely doubt the children will starve...that is just the silly come-on for Sally Struthers and Rwanda or Ethiopia, which do NOT have a food shortage, they have dictator problems who refuses to distribute the food to the people...
Your postings have the flavor of UAW-entitlement, like they deserve it for free because they want it...that attitude did not exist until the Great Society of 1965...oh, to be able to go back to the Era of Responsibilty, which lasted thousands of years until 1965 and Lyndon Johnson...
Ever notice when urban rioters are looting, they always loot the stores that carry life's "basic necessities", like plasma TVs, stereos, liquor, but they never steal lif'e's "luxuries", like bread, milk, butter eggs, cheese, soap, etc???... ever wonder how well the kids eat that stolen plasma TV, or is it just me?????
Hey, tell rocky we miss him...get an update for us...is he with Beth, does he sell cars, who does he work for (generically speaking, of course), how is he doing, is he still in Grand Rapids or has he left Michigan...was he the one who turned out the lights as he left???
Gagrice - Some residents are standing up to the thug mentality that big cities breed. I say good for them
Marsha7 - And if they decide on a life of crime, a career in burglary will be cut short by a society full of armed homeowners, who will protect their homes in a heartbeat...
Did any of you hear about the Johns Hopkins University student in Baltimore - not sure if this made the national scene or not. Evidently, he surprised a burglar (long rap sheet, just got out of the slammer) in his garage, at night. According to news reports, the burglar charged at the student. Turned out the student had armed himself with a Samurai sword and swung at the burglar, hitting him along the neck and severing his hand. The burglar bled to death before help could arise. So far, it has been ruled justified and no charges filed against the student.
No, I am not going to run away to the suburbs like some dog with its tail between its legs. I've always viewed people who ran away to suburbia as cowards who will soon realize that one cannot run away from crime and blight as it will follow you. It is already in the inner-ring suburbs. Where are you going to run next? You've get to take a stand!
Thanks for getting back to the topic.
The problem is that at the rate the UAW is going, there won't be much of a topic left in a few years!
In the news, well, Boeing has a deal pending, Deere's deal have been ratified, and UAW officials have approved Ford's deal. It might turn out to be a boring winter.
Your problem is simple...you expect equality of outcome, a typical left-wing socialist concept, whereas this country SHOULD stand for equality of opportunity, where everyone has the same LEGAL opportunity to better themselves...remember, Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout, but still had some brains he could use...
Plus, your UAW friends, if they started working at age 18, fresh out of high school, were 10 years into pension vesting at age 28...most grad students barely have a full time job at age 28, as they have been going to school, so blue collar workers, like our beloved UAW, have had their pensions secure by the time most of us grad students have gotten started earning our pay...
It's called opportunity cost...simply, by choosing one thing, you must forego the other...you cannot choose BOTH forks in the road, you must choose one and give up the other...
Stay in the city, I admire your attitude...but do not come down on those of us who want to desert the inner city scene...we are NOT cowards...we just don''t want to bother trying to reform a neighborhood when we have better things to do with our lives...you want to spend your time reforming???...feel free to do so, just don't expect me to follow you like a puppy...
Plus, when you shoot an intruder in an apartment complex, you run the risk of hitting a neighbor...when you own the home with half an acre, there is SO MUCH more space and time to take careful aim and shoot the intruder before he gets away, so living in the suburbs is a SAFETY factor when it comes to using deadly force to eliminate the population of the worthless...:):):)
Laid Off - Yet Again
Nobody looks to the south if they want to see progress and justice...guns will only do so much.
Refining gasoline is just another thing we're outsourcing.
I think there is a bit of educational elitism in some of the posts in this forum that seem to feel anyone doing blue collar work should make around minimum wage. A lot of blue collar work also requires smarts and can be hard and demanding physically on the body. Some may be overpaid and some underpaid just like many white collar workers and professions. Actually, I think the bigger problem from some unions is overly restrictive work rules hindering efficiency and investment. But on an economic basis, a viewpoint of massively cutting blue collar wages is short-sighted. This action will likely quickly lead to significant deflation since most people aren't college graduates or in professional careers. So the resulting big loss generated in wages means demand will quickly dry up hitting company top and bottom lines (salary cut savings will be more than offset by inability to fully absorb fixed overhead in such a situation). That means the white collar college grads will start seeing job losses, pay cuts and benefit changes (and a lot worse than what we are seeing today) from office and plant closings around the country. It also means retirees will have cuts or elimination to their pensions, while the value of personal owned homes, assets and investments tank.. IMO the goal should be gaining greater cooperation, efficiency and innovation between all types of employees rather than large salary cuts since the latter hurts the overall economy. As for improving global competitiveness through large scale wage cuts, I think this thought is also misguided. The aforementioned deflation will obliterate the dollar further decreasing our global competiveness. Yes, we will be pricing our goods much cheaper in overseas markets, but unfortunately an unstable and badly wounded dollar will significantly impair financing of our nation. No credit, no sale! In fact, such a scenario may well lead large multinational corporations currently based here to relocate overseas since base of operations require financial stability (if it was just "cheapest", they would have left long ago). Beware those who espouse easily fixing our economy through weakening the dollar - short term fixes tend to lead to long term problems. Finally, you can't only compare salary rates around the globe. There are efficiency factors, transportation costs, benefits costs, currency exchange rates, regulatory and business environment costs, etc. that all impact the true total cost at any given location and operation. Globally, we must be competitive on costs, but not necessarily cheapest.
As for the discussions on geographic locations around this country, I think we should celebrate and learn from regional differences. The different places I've lived in or traveled to taught me that there are good and not so good traits everywhere. Also, there are economically and socially strong urban, suburban and rural areas and vice versa. I think these differences are really things that make America strong rather than a bunch of lemmings which is why we have generally been a successful nation. Personally, I find homogenizing thought or actions tends to lead to mediocrity.
That describes my worthless brother-in-law to a "T!" The guy has a Ph.D and he's living in my wife's mother's basement for free, doesn't even pay utilities, and has trashed the place. He left his wife in Connecticut, had his house foreclosed, works some crappy job, and his finances would make a CPA blanch.
But if you drop out of high school w/o any type of skill, I don't know how you can expect anyone to owe you anything. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't even thing the union hall would accept an apprentice w/o a HS diploma.
Job is like any other product. The more proprietary content or desirable product it is, the better pay and security. The more generic the content and competition, the lower the pay and higher vulnerability. If there is one opening and twenty guys within a mile able to do the same thing, the is $10/hr or less. If there are twenty openings and one guy within 500 miles, the rate is much more. Perhaps not always, but often enough.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Believe it or not, I never implied that blue collar work should be held to minimum wage...I have said, repeatedly, that UNSKILLED labor has little economic value, and should be paid accordingly...I use UAW assembly work as the epitome of unskilled labor...I have also never said that only college educated folks should be well paid, but at the same time, even tho a college degree (or technical certification) is no guarantee of a job, I would find it very hard to advocate to any teenager that they should drop out of school in the 10th grade and expect to make a good living...
So, I do default to telling virtually anyone that getting an education will almost always err of the side of the right thing to do...for one, that may be college and grad school, for another that may be certification as an electrician or a plumber, or a computer degree at DeVry Institute...
I do NOT hold my (formal) education over anybody, as I know too many folks w/o college that know so much more than me...besides, with the number of lawyers we have in the US, it is hard to imagine that my law school education is anything special ( :P
My harping has always been on simply lug nut tighteners and floorsweepers thinking they are worth $35/hour because of the "skill" involved in what they do...is it honest work???...you bet, and I never said otherwise...but is floorsweeping a "skill?"...I would be hard pressed to see it that way...
And I would be hard pressed to see anything done by the UAW as "skilled" since, according to our own (former) rocky, it was those "dropout toothless redneck hicks" that migrated from the South and took those jobs in the auto plants making cars, so if all it took was to train a "dropout toothless redneck hick" to make a car, then you could probably teach a child, or some other lesser primate to do that job...chances are, the lesser primates would not even demand 30 minute coffee breaks, just a couple of bananas or kibbles every few hours...
But don't EVER think that I look down on those with less (formal) education than me...what I DON'T know would fill volumes, and what I learn from those who do something other than me is rewarding...don't forget, I grew up making starters and alternators, cutting discs and drums, performing valve jobs...I grew up blue collar and I have rolled in enough grease and dirt, so I know what it is...I NEVER forget where I came from...
Speaking of rocky, does anyone have any updates with specificity???
Oh, so the value is going up!