If one accepts reality where a comany with a product that sales crashed (e.g. car manufacturer or retailer) has to lower their price in environment of lower demand, they also have to accept that people certain jobs have to accept lower wages when there is less available employment. Period. Bo "buts".
These are two sides of the same reality. When product doesn't sell (including employment), you increase product's value either by lowering the price or by adding features and innovation (or combination). The seller either increases efficiency to retain the same profit on lower price point or simply accepts living on less. Have too big mortgage or car loan to pay? Tough - companies get seized by their bondholders all the time, too. Of course it's brutal and heartless, but it's THE ONLY WAY to keep all players honest - including employees.
"As for someone suggesting the 840 just go get other jobs..., the job climate in this area is very poor for those with medium skill levels. We have lots thousands of lost jobs with Delphi and GM. It's nice to say "just go get another job" but there ain't none."
Maybe that's the point...this UAW seems to shoot itself in the foot most of the time...jobs for the unskilled, at the wage paid to UAW, simply do not exist anywhere in the country, yet they act like everyone gets paid that much to sweep the floor or tighten lug nuts...so they strike and wonder why production is moved to Mexico, the workers lose jobs, but at least their union stood up for them...that's kinda like your attorney visiting you in prison after losing your case and telling you how bad he feels because he lost...
"People are very upset, and they let King know it," said Gary Walkowicz, a member of the bargaining committee at the Dearborn Truck Plant and a leader of dissidents at the Rouge. "We are urging everyone to vote down these concessions."
Bottom line: Rattner's 6,000-word account ignores or underplays as much as it includes. Because today's politically correct narrative of "Who Killed Detroit?" concentrates blame in a few highly paid executives when reality is much more complicated.
Responsibility for the implosion of the Detroit Two and its aftershocks against people, plants and communities is shared by successive waves of management and union leadership, salaried and hourly employees, dealers and the politicians who protected them in exchange for campaign cash.
Rattner justifiably hammers management, GM's board, Chrysler's past two owners -- Daimler AG and Cerberus Capital Management LP. All are predictable targets at a time when business of all kinds is demonized and hectored by official Washington, starting with the president himself.
The UAW? Not so much. The president of the United States can fire a sitting CEO (without, at the time, technically owning a single share of the company) but apparently not the president of a union whose claims against the company contributed to its massive financial obligations (as they did at Chrysler, too).
Not that Gettelfinger should have gotten the boot. That's up to UAW members. In Rattner's version, GM's ousted CEO, Rick Wagoner, countered Rattner's request that Wagoner step aside with, "Are you going to fire Ron Gettelfinger, too?"
Doesn't work that way. The president, preparing to pump more than $70 billion into two apparently moribund automakers, needed someone to atone for the sins of Detroit, past and present, and that wasn't going to be Gettelfinger.
Ah, the payback understood! And that $70B? It's now estimated to be worth about half that amount. Cheaper than supporting a collapsed work force, I suppose.
To make clear, this is the IUE not UAW. The IUE was the union at the GM Truck Plan in Moraine. It appeared to be a much more normal union than UAW. Sadly, as a result, its members were screwed over by GM old or GM new by having UAW retirees treated better and the IUE retirees not included.
>Not that Gettelfinger should have gotten the boot. That's up to UAW members.
I have to disagree. If the president and his henchmen can make it appear Wagoner was the sole figurehead for the problems in the auto industry, Gettelfinger had to have been fired also. The UAW members needed a fresh change and an open mind at the top. Obama needed to protect the "people."
".....Maybe that's the point...this UAW seems to shoot itself in the foot most of the time...jobs for the unskilled, at the wage paid to UAW, simply do not exist anywhere in the country, yet they act like everyone gets paid that much to sweep the floor or tighten lug nuts...so they strike and wonder why production is moved to Mexico, the workers lose jobs, but at least their union stood up for them...that's kinda like your attorney visiting you in prison after losing your case and telling you how bad he feels because he lost.."
Bob, I get what you're saying, but a lot of the "comments" made by union leadership is just rhetoric to get the juices flowing. Unfortunately, some (maybe even too many) take it to heart.
Where the rubber meets the road however, is when you get a situation like this; a coworker of mine had accepted a retirement offer from Verizon. He was just awaiting an off payroll date, and then he would either use up his vacation time or get paid for it. If the off payroll date was on or after 10/1/09, he would receive an extra 3% in his pension.
On Wed, Sept 30th, he was told that his off payroll date was supposed to have been 9/19/09!!!! But he had worked every day since then up until 9/30, including 1/2 hr OT the previous week. At 4 pm on 9/30 (we leave at 3:30) he was told to leave his keys and ID, and that they would code the days he worked as vacation time so he gets paid, and that if he showed up on 10/1 they would recind his retirement and he would lose the $76,000 kicker, and he wouldn't get paid for the OT.
It's currently being grieved, but in other circumstances, wouldn't HE have to pay for the litigation???
Those kind of things go on all the time. At our company we were offered an early retirement bonus of $25k. Only one guy took it as we all thought they would do the same thing the next year. They did not. They only offered $15k the next go around. I took that as I was ready to get out. The other retirement age guys thought they would get $15k. Mine was the last they offered and the next 4 guys that retired not only lost the silver handshake, they lost the sick leave buyout as the contract was changed to PTO with no buyout.
Much of the time Union contracts try to treat everyone the same. It rarely works that way.
One indicator of the economy recovering is seeing signs offering employment for fast food and retail jobs. That means the guys who were working there quit and moved onto something better. I don't see those signs these days which means unemployed factory workers won't even have McJobs to look forward to.
yes that is indeed sad. Consider this though on the Wagoner deal.
The UAW? Not so much. The president of the United States can fire a sitting CEO (without, at the time, technically owning a single share of the company) but apparently not the president of a union whose claims against the company contributed to its massive financial obligations (as they did at Chrysler, too).
Wagoner was right IMO. Gettlefinger should've been let go, perhaps not Wagoner. Or probably they both should've been canned. Letting the GM CEO go is almost a no-brainer but letting the UAW Head go makes even more sense in light of their brawnish stupidity in this situation. They were practically entirely to blame for the Detroit collapse IMO.
I didn't see Detroit collapsing in May of 1999 as I laid out the qualifying change required to buy my 1999 Kia Sephia sedan. BTW, I bought that car for only $7,995. That included a manufacturer's rebate of $2,000. No A/C or radio. Radio was bought and installed later and an A/C was never put in. One doesn't need them in Washington state. The car treated me well. What did GM offer in a small economy sedan in 1999? Don't spend the time looking it up. I can tell you the answer:nothing.
At that time the massive demands of the UAW was an unknown thing to me. You can't really blame the employees, until they go along with these huge demands and agree to strike a Company that is hurting. An American carmaker, their employer no less, that is hurting for cash. Umm...were they really only thinking about theirselves here?
Once again, the analogy of Boeing and the IAM's creeps in to play here. IAM leaders whip them all in to frenzy. Like stirring the UW Husky fans in to a frenzy of hatred towards visiting basketball and football teams to Seattle. A money-grubbing but unfortunately for them non-thinking orgy of hatred towards Boeing management and Boeing overall. Makes the Boeing working grounds a weird place to be in during negotiation times.
I've been there, gentlemen. As a former member of Boeing's Engineering Union, SPEEA, I've been there. Witnessed the hysteria and hoopla, manufactured and drummed-up to get more money in all of their hands.
In the longest white-collar strike in U.S. history, the 2000 SPEEA strike against The Boeing Company, the 2nd offer eventually accepted by SPEEA members actually offered less overall than the 1st offer!
But I couldn't even get that point across intelligently to anyone after the acceptance of the offer! It was like trying to explain to Pittsburgh Stealer fans that Super Bowl 40 was thrown. Like talking to a bunch of yellow and black brick walls, car nuts.
BTW, is that guy that caught the foul ball at the Cub's game that he should've stayed away from, is he still in Chi-Town, trying to avoid trouble at all costs?
Back in March, Gettelfinger announced that he would be retiring in 2010. So that's another reason not to fire him, since he was a lame duck anyway. Haven't heard any recent news about him stepping down though, and the year is winding down fast.
I didn't recall that story about Gettlefinger stepping down in 2010. Now that the pool is stirred up and tidal waves are crashing ashore, time to go on a long cruise somewhere, eh?
Yeah, you have to wonder if "circumstances have changed" and maybe we have a "new Gettelfinger" post banko to go with the "new GM". Not any recent news about his retirement that I could find, but I didn't look all that hard either.
>Gettelfinger announced that he would be retiring in 2010. So that's another reason not to fire him,
Wagoner might have been leaving in a year or so also. That's no reason not to "fire" Gettlefinger or Wagoner. Of course, Gettlefinger represents union income and donations for the party; Wagoner does not. Gettlefinger represents votes: Wagoner represents someone wealthy that could be blamed for failure of evil business in the "workers" socialist world coming.
"Bob, I get what you're saying, but a lot of the "comments" made by union leadership is just rhetoric to get the juices flowing. Unfortunately, some (maybe even too many) take it to heart."...
But when it is effective, then the fools just vote themselves out of jobs...which, to me, simply proves beyond a reasonable doubt just how stupid and ignorant they really, I mean, REALLY are...
It is one thing for cheerleaders to cheer on the football team losing 45-10, simply because they could still win, and there is no harm in cheering the team on...but when the UAW brass gets the rank & file riled up ("just vote no until they give us more") they simply cannot see that they are voting, not to contribute to their continued employment, but to emply workers in Mexico or Brazil...
How anyone can try and convince me of the intelligence of the UAW member, I am amazed how blind they, or their supporters are...
They don't have the market share, they aren't selling all they can make, and they have too many employees doing that work that half the workforce is needed, yet they think that they're gonna "stick it to the man"...as they sit there in the empty Jobs Bank building, without donuts and coffee (no one to pay for them), wondering where the jobs went, and they are just that stupid that they do not know...I did not know humans could be that dumb, but apparently an IQ of 70 (moron) is all that is needed for UAW membership...
The whole "reason" for the Jobs Bank was, just in case, they had 1000s of workers "ready" in case they were needed for a spurt in production...of what???...to whom???...as they (Big 3) lost market share on a daily basis, they thought that the market for UAW cars would suddenly jump???...after 25 years of folks running away to Honda & Toy???...maybe the tooth fairy is a better example...
Oh, the Georgia Kia plant opens today, I think...1200 jobs to Atlanta area, plus the suppliers etc....how ironic...I wonder how many former UAW members work at the plant???...anyone guess ZERO???...they never learn, will they???
The whole "reason" for the Jobs Bank was, just in case, they had 1000s of workers "ready" in case they were needed for a spurt in production.
That's manager talk for covering their [non-permissible content removed] for just doing something stupid. Spending millions on the jobs bank "in case" a production spurt comes up is stupid.
Or, they knew just how stupid it was, basically placing them on welfare, but without calling it welfare...I am sure that those in the Jobs Bank were sitting on the edge of their seats, waiting to be called, except that they were covered with sugar from all the donuts...
Years ago, an ad ran (Braniff?)..."Is this any way to run an airline???...you bet it is"...
When I look at the UAW and the fiasco that the entire union was, and is, all I can think of is..."Is this any way to run an auto company???...Are you nuts???"
What is amazing to me is how appreciation for work is trashed for "wanting more". The UAW is the poster child for short term gain over long time dedication.
When the want for more overruns the need, all is lost. Seems that today's Unions still don't get it.
Why not try to be the most efficient entity for employment which will ensure long term bonds with the companies that are served? :confuse:
The UAW was founded to look out for the working man. Instead they have spent way too much time defending the slackers and featherbedders. I have no problem with a Union getting good wages and working conditions for the WORKING MAN. Where the UAW fell down was defending blatant sick leave abuse and archaic work rules. If the boss cannot tell a guy on the line to change a light bulb over his work area, he loses production time. Both jobs on the line and changing a light bulb are Non Skilled jobs. Same would go for keeping his or her work area clean. Stopping production and waiting for a floor sweeper makes no sense to me.
Ford the only real US auto maker left should have taken that 2200 page UAW contract and in a ceremony burnt it. Then cut it down to about 20 pages and told the UAW sign it or walk. The moment the workers went on strike open up the employment office and hire security to control the thugs the UAW sends out. I can guarantee Ford would get better workers for a lot less than they are paying now. There are literally millions of people out of work that would jump at $14 per hour. And be very happy to get the work. Within a couple months Ford would have good production with very few whiners to deal with. I think that is a better solution than sending the work South of the border.
>cut it down to about 20 pages and told the UAW sign it or walk. The moment the workers went on strike open up the employment office and hire security to control the thugs the UAW sends out
What odds you give this of succedeing? 1 out of 5? In this slanted political climate do you believe BO would NOT send in the troops to stop Ford from releasing all the UAW workers from their contract with them? Remember, this is the BO who does nothing to control the incentives and pay at the top Wall STreet firms until recently when a distraction from cap and tax and healthcare is needed to confuse the opposition. Remember this is the BO who fired the GM CEO but left the CEO of UAW intact? Absolutely no need to fire Wagoner without giving Gettel the finger too.
Just as BO didn't clear out the UAW at GM (and C) for political reasons, it will never happen at Ford.
"Why not try to be the most efficient entity for employment which will ensure long term bonds with the companies that are served?"...because you are expecting the expression of intelligence from a specific group of people that are specifically hired because of the extreme LACK of intelligence...like children who only look to the next meal, because that is their time frame of life, so goes the UAW...once you understand and accept that, all the rest falls into line...
imidaz: "What odds you give this of succedeing? 1 out of 5? In this slanted political climate do you believe BO would NOT send in the troops to stop Ford from releasing all the UAW workers from their contract with them?"...good question...Hussein Obama got away with what he did, in one sense, because the companies were about to go bankrupt w/o $$$ from the gov't (I say let the process do what it will, but we have seen too much illegal stuff from both Repubs & Dems)...with Ford actually in business w/o gov't interference, it would be interesting if they tore up the UAW contract, re-wrote a 1-5 page contract with NO work restrictions, and told the UAW to take it or leave it...maybe because Ford is "viable" Obama may have stayed away, but your thoughts still make sense, and I am probably the one dreaming...
Someone was asking about the CAW the other day. Here's today's blurb:
"As talks with Ford Canada resume, the Canadian Auto Workers union wants its members to reflect on possible cost concessions in a new deal with the carmaker, even if Ford's U.S. parent turns a profit when it reports third-quarter results this week.
"When Ford Motor Co. looks like they're starting to turn a profit, then workers themselves ask, 'Why are sacrifices necessary?"' Lewenza said.
"But Ford in terms of cost structure is at a disadvantage today based on what we did at GM and Chrysler."
I think the CAW is going to find itself in a pickle down the road. The Canadian currency has shot past the US dollar and will likely continue climbing due to Canada's resources wealth. That is going to make it more expensive to build cars in Canada, the reverse of a decade ago, despite the nationalized healthcare. Also, over time the resource rich western provinces are going to become more important to the economy than the eastern manufacturing oriented ones and government priorities will be forced to change.
""When Ford Motor Co. looks like they're starting to turn a profit, then workers themselves ask, 'Why are sacrifices necessary?"' Lewenza said."
Then again, maybe it IS time for Ford to tear up the contract, re-write it under one page (like the tax bill ought to be), and tell the UAW take it or leave it...gagrice is right...there are many people who would be glad to get $14/hour to work, and enough of them could easily overrun the goon squad from the UAW...
It would be fun to watch, as Ford states on TV that they are trying to save American industry and all the UAW could say is that we are trying to keep floorsweepers getting paid $35/hour for their "skills"...
Oh, to see THAT debate on Fox News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The UAW seems to think that a company not in the red is making a decent profit. GM did not make a decent profit over the last 20 years. Yet how many times did the UAW go on strike. I hold the executives to the same level. No profit, no bonus. I can see why there were surprises when the government looked closely at GM. They should have gone away a couple decades ago. Little or no profit and very few vehicles that were worth buying. And the UAW and its retirees bleeding them all along the way.
Hopefully Ford does not follow that same path with the UAW.
Not the UAW but the Rico Auto Worker’s Union.
"Ford could run short of Ford Edge and Ford Flex models due to a labor dispute at a supplier plant in India that has forced the automaker to close its Oakville, Ontario, assembly plant."
The vast majority of occupations available to the American non-professional are meaningless and grotesquely stultifying, even outside the working class. In the new global economy, McJobs are no longer the domain of teenagers and part-timers, they’re the cradle-to-grave norm for nearly everyone.
Older ideas of the dignity of labor seem quaint: anyone who works hard today is a fool, and the smartest person makes the most money with the least effort. Work is what you do to make money for fat greedy scumbags who already have it.
The family itself is a disappearing institution, beset by divorce and two-career marriages. We try to avoid reality by tuning into a mass culture which presents a false image, by trying to pile up personal wealth which may insulate us. We can drive in our air-conditioned cars from our burglar-proof houses in our gated communities to the mall, and back again, and try to avoid awareness of the world in between. We seem to have bought the idea that government hurts more than it helps. We accept the idea that there are no real solutions for social problems. There are no heroes, everyone is out for himself. There are no careers, you go to college and still end up working at a McJob.
People are really worried about NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND A JOB. Five years ago it was not being able to find a decent-paying Job. Now, with the economic collapse. Even the crappy McJobs are gone.
Working class guys aren't stupid. They've known for a while now that the main reason it's so hard to find a job is outsourcing. It takes a real idiot to not realize that if all of the jobs get sent overseas. Since McJobs don't pay CRAP, after a while there won't be anyone who can afford to buy ANYTHING.
Well, now that the crap has hit the fan economically speaking. Even the McJobs are disappearing. Shopping centers and strip malls are starting to look as empty as Main Streets have looked for the last decade.
The rich are completely disconnected from the real economy. They can go anywhere in the world and just buy whatever's still going and take a profit from it.The old assumption was that labor was mobile, and that people would follow the jobs wherever they went. Capital, on the other hand, was supposed to be immobile, having been invested in and largely synonymous with the productive capacity. They would never have imagined that what happened to Detroit (for example) would happen ... literally wasting all that investment in factories, etc.
Instead, the opposite has been proven true. Capital is very mobile, and will let 50 and 100 years of physical investment rust away while it constantly searches for people willing to do more work for less compensation in harsher conditions. Labor, on the other hand, is not mobile, because the factories aren't moving to a place where there's no people; the Chinese and the Mexicans were waiting when the factories got there, and they'll keep those jobs until some poor wretch underbids them.
So what you're saying is that if the UAW had agreed to more automation, the jobs that were remaining would have required a higher level of skill and therefore the new UAW jobs would be more skilled jobs? So the UAW was wrong in opposing automation, so the automated factories get built in Brazil by US companies? :confuse:
"Autoworkers in Missouri overwhelmingly rejected a new contract with Ford Motor Co., a sign that the automaker and the United Auto Workers union are having trouble convincing some workers to accept changes that would lower Ford's labor costs."
"Workers would get a $1,000 bonus if the deal is ratified, but the proposal also would freeze entry-level wages and require some skilled-trades workers to do more than one job.
But opponents say Ford already is healthier than GM and Chrysler, and that workers need to take a stand and stop accepting concessions."...(Bold emphasis is mine)
So, asking workers to do more than one job (does anyone hear the words "Honda" or "Toyota" in the air???) is simply unfair, and the workers need to take a stand because Ford hasn't yet gone bankrupt...
Is there ANYONE in this topic that wishes to post their opinion trying to convince me that UAW people, and now add the skilled trades, have an IQ that is over 70 (idiot-moron level)???...
They are running around believing that Ford is in good shape simply because they aren't in Ch 11...where the heck is rocky???...I want some pro-UAW person to take a stand and try and convince me that these workers have an inkling as to what is going on...
Where do they think the money comes from, trees???...how many MORE jobs will be sent away because of these people, and then folks lament about the "loss of our industrial base"...we haven't lost our industrial base as much as we have lost our basic intelligence, and that is that the company must make money or no one has a job, except maybe the Mexicans and Brazilians...
"But the UAW fought hard for us, grandson, and we showed 'em...we didn't give in...yeah we've been unemployed now for 20 years, but we showed 'em that we won't sweep floors for less than $35/hour, because you just don't treat skilled labor like that, grandson"...
Now is the time for Ford to tear up the contract and just see how the gov't will respond to a company that has no gov't money as a lever...
how many MORE jobs will be sent away because of these people
Sent away to India, where the Ford strike there has already resulted in one death? That strike has resulted in the closing of a Canadian factory. Choose your poison....
The Canadian plant normally runs two shifts and employs 3,000 workers. Workers idled due to the shutdown will receive 65 percent of their pay.
My question is why do the workers get 65% of their pay for not working? I thought the whole concept of Jobs Bank was ended this year. Or are the Canadians ripping off Ford?
As far as the Strike in India. Ford needs to diversify production. Don't put all the manufacturing in one plant. We know from the past that invites a strike. Think about the UAW and GM walkouts at the only plants making vehicles that were selling last year. Labor unrest is bound to happen in the emerging countries as they sort out where fair wages and slavery part.
Why aren't they getting full pay? It's not the employee's fault that Ford can't get the parts to them. Did the phone company send you out in the tundra when you ran out of punchdown gizmos? :P
".....Did the phone company send you out in the tundra when you ran out of punchdown gizmos? "
Ahem, they are known as "66 blocks" or Krone blocks, depending on the style.
BTW, we have a no layoff clause in our contract. It doesn't apply to "outside events" like work drying up because of the economy. I would assume if there was a shortage of fiber-optic cable being produced, they couldn't lay off. guess it depends on your definition of "outside event"
There is a big difference between a maintenance job and a manufacturing job. You don't have cars to sell you don't make money. In a job like mine the company gets paid for the phone service year round. So they can justify having someone there in case of a problem. Very much apples to oranges. So what is the difference between that and the Jobs Bank? This is more like the Feds paying people not to grow Tobacco.
In 1985 when the economy in AK went in the toilet our company laid off half the crew. No 65% until work picked up. We hired one guy back 3 years later in 1989. They got 4 weeks severance pay. Being a Ford stockholder I am not happy paying people to do nothing.
Not sure where you are going with this...I am unaware of this situation in India...why was there a death from the Ford strike???
Plus, one death in a nation of 1.3 billion people, they have more than that dying daily from lightning strikes, or steer trampling...you think ONE death in some plant is going to mean anything???...especially to THEM???
There is a big difference between a maintenance job and a manufacturing job.
Maybe there was a bigger difference in your union and the UAW. :-)
Bob/Marsha7, the news about the Ford supplier strike in India said the turmoil resulted in the death of a worker (although one story I skimmed said the victim was a manager). Here's another link from livemint.com. GM and Jag/Land Rover may also be affected by the strike if it continues.
Sounds to me like UAW infiltration into the Indian manufacturing. Would not surprise me. Stir the pot in the supply chain to try and force manufacturing back to the USA. I may be giving the UAW leadership more credit than they deserve. My guess is they share the level of IQ with most of the non skilled labor they represent.
Why aren't they getting full pay? It's not the employee's fault that Ford can't get the parts to them.
Doesn't really matter, in my mind. No parts, then no vehicles. If no vehicles, then nothing to sell. If nothing sold, then no income. If no income, nothing to pay the workers. Simple.
From article: "However, the outbreak of violence on Sunday, which resulted in the death of a worker, brought production to a halt as agitating workers blocked factory gates"...
Thanks for the link...
Maybe I'm dense, but it seems to imply that the workers were violent and one of them died...almost like "friendly fire" if you are part of the workers...it really is not specific enough...
Maybe similar to the crushing of soccer fans...they just keep pushing and folks get crushed...tragic???...yes...does it stop soccer???...no, they simply died for their favorite sport...
Yeah, the links seem translated and twice removed. One story said there were about 3,000 workers in total, but only half were on strike. Maybe it's fighting between the strikers and the "scabs" as people try to go to their shift.
It sounds like the whole auto industry is in turmoil in that part of India and unrest is disrupting Honda and Hyundai production, as well as GM and Jag that were mentioned in one of the links. Honda is threatening to shut down their factory entirely.
Comments
These are two sides of the same reality. When product doesn't sell (including employment), you increase product's value either by lowering the price or by adding features and innovation (or combination). The seller either increases efficiency to retain the same profit on lower price point or simply accepts living on less. Have too big mortgage or car loan to pay? Tough - companies get seized by their bondholders all the time, too. Of course it's brutal and heartless, but it's THE ONLY WAY to keep all players honest - including employees.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Maybe that's the point...this UAW seems to shoot itself in the foot most of the time...jobs for the unskilled, at the wage paid to UAW, simply do not exist anywhere in the country, yet they act like everyone gets paid that much to sweep the floor or tighten lug nuts...so they strike and wonder why production is moved to Mexico, the workers lose jobs, but at least their union stood up for them...that's kinda like your attorney visiting you in prison after losing your case and telling you how bad he feels because he lost...
Useful Idioms (Alternate Route)
Bottom line: Rattner's 6,000-word account ignores or underplays as much as it includes. Because today's politically correct narrative of "Who Killed Detroit?" concentrates blame in a few highly paid executives when reality is much more complicated.
Responsibility for the implosion of the Detroit Two and its aftershocks against people, plants and communities is shared by successive waves of management and union leadership, salaried and hourly employees, dealers and the politicians who protected them in exchange for campaign cash.
Rattner justifiably hammers management, GM's board, Chrysler's past two owners -- Daimler AG and Cerberus Capital Management LP. All are predictable targets at a time when business of all kinds is demonized and hectored by official Washington, starting with the president himself.
The UAW? Not so much. The president of the United States can fire a sitting CEO (without, at the time, technically owning a single share of the company) but apparently not the president of a union whose claims against the company contributed to its massive financial obligations (as they did at Chrysler, too).
Not that Gettelfinger should have gotten the boot. That's up to UAW members. In Rattner's version, GM's ousted CEO, Rick Wagoner, countered Rattner's request that Wagoner step aside with, "Are you going to fire Ron Gettelfinger, too?"
Doesn't work that way. The president, preparing to pump more than $70 billion into two apparently moribund automakers, needed someone to atone for the sins of Detroit, past and present, and that wasn't going to be Gettelfinger.
Ah, the payback understood! And that $70B? It's now estimated to be worth about half that amount. Cheaper than supporting a collapsed work force, I suppose.
Full Article: Unspoken
Regards,
OW
To make clear, this is the IUE not UAW. The IUE was the union at the GM Truck Plan in Moraine. It appeared to be a much more normal union than UAW. Sadly, as a result, its members were screwed over by GM old or GM new by having UAW retirees treated better and the IUE retirees not included.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have to disagree. If the president and his henchmen can make it appear Wagoner was the sole figurehead for the problems in the auto industry, Gettelfinger had to have been fired also. The UAW members needed a fresh change and an open mind at the top. Obama needed to protect the "people."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Bob, I get what you're saying, but a lot of the "comments" made by union leadership is just rhetoric to get the juices flowing. Unfortunately, some (maybe even too many) take it to heart.
Where the rubber meets the road however, is when you get a situation like this; a coworker of mine had accepted a retirement offer from Verizon. He was just awaiting an off payroll date, and then he would either use up his vacation time or get paid for it. If the off payroll date was on or after 10/1/09, he would receive an extra 3% in his pension.
On Wed, Sept 30th, he was told that his off payroll date was supposed to have been 9/19/09!!!! But he had worked every day since then up until 9/30, including 1/2 hr OT the previous week. At 4 pm on 9/30 (we leave at 3:30) he was told to leave his keys and ID, and that they would code the days he worked as vacation time so he gets paid, and that if he showed up on 10/1 they would recind his retirement and he would lose the $76,000 kicker, and he wouldn't get paid for the OT.
It's currently being grieved, but in other circumstances, wouldn't HE have to pay for the litigation???
Much of the time Union contracts try to treat everyone the same. It rarely works that way.
The UAW? Not so much. The president of the United States can fire a sitting CEO (without, at the time, technically owning a single share of the company) but apparently not the president of a union whose claims against the company contributed to its massive financial obligations (as they did at Chrysler, too).
Wagoner was right IMO. Gettlefinger should've been let go, perhaps not Wagoner. Or probably they both should've been canned. Letting the GM CEO go is almost a no-brainer but letting the UAW Head go makes even more sense in light of their brawnish stupidity in this situation. They were practically entirely to blame for the Detroit collapse IMO.
I didn't see Detroit collapsing in May of 1999 as I laid out the qualifying change required to buy my 1999 Kia Sephia sedan. BTW, I bought that car for only $7,995. That included a manufacturer's rebate of $2,000. No A/C or radio. Radio was bought and installed later and an A/C was never put in. One doesn't need them in Washington state. The car treated me well. What did GM offer in a small economy sedan in 1999? Don't spend the time looking it up. I can tell you the answer:nothing.
At that time the massive demands of the UAW was an unknown thing to me. You can't really blame the employees, until they go along with these huge demands and agree to strike a Company that is hurting. An American carmaker, their employer no less, that is hurting for cash. Umm...were they really only thinking about theirselves here?
Once again, the analogy of Boeing and the IAM's creeps in to play here. IAM leaders whip them all in to frenzy. Like stirring the UW Husky fans in to a frenzy of hatred towards visiting basketball and football teams to Seattle. A money-grubbing but unfortunately for them non-thinking orgy of hatred towards Boeing management and Boeing overall. Makes the Boeing working grounds a weird place to be in during negotiation times.
I've been there, gentlemen. As a former member of Boeing's Engineering Union, SPEEA, I've been there. Witnessed the hysteria and hoopla, manufactured and drummed-up to get more money in all of their hands.
In the longest white-collar strike in U.S. history, the 2000 SPEEA strike against The Boeing Company, the 2nd offer eventually accepted by SPEEA members actually offered less overall than the 1st offer!
But I couldn't even get that point across intelligently to anyone after the acceptance of the offer! It was like trying to explain to Pittsburgh Stealer fans that Super Bowl 40 was thrown. Like talking to a bunch of yellow and black brick walls, car nuts.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
BTW, is that guy that caught the foul ball at the Cub's game that he should've stayed away from, is he still in Chi-Town, trying to avoid trouble at all costs?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
UAW looks toward Gettelfinger successor (Detroit News)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Name escapes me ... Wagoner or something like that? :shades:
Wagoner might have been leaving in a year or so also. That's no reason not to "fire" Gettlefinger or Wagoner. Of course, Gettlefinger represents union income and donations for the party; Wagoner does not. Gettlefinger represents votes: Wagoner represents someone wealthy that could be blamed for failure of evil business in the "workers" socialist world coming.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
thanks.
But when it is effective, then the fools just vote themselves out of jobs...which, to me, simply proves beyond a reasonable doubt just how stupid and ignorant they really, I mean, REALLY are...
It is one thing for cheerleaders to cheer on the football team losing 45-10, simply because they could still win, and there is no harm in cheering the team on...but when the UAW brass gets the rank & file riled up ("just vote no until they give us more") they simply cannot see that they are voting, not to contribute to their continued employment, but to emply workers in Mexico or Brazil...
How anyone can try and convince me of the intelligence of the UAW member, I am amazed how blind they, or their supporters are...
They don't have the market share, they aren't selling all they can make, and they have too many employees doing that work that half the workforce is needed, yet they think that they're gonna "stick it to the man"...as they sit there in the empty Jobs Bank building, without donuts and coffee (no one to pay for them), wondering where the jobs went, and they are just that stupid that they do not know...I did not know humans could be that dumb, but apparently an IQ of 70 (moron) is all that is needed for UAW membership...
The whole "reason" for the Jobs Bank was, just in case, they had 1000s of workers "ready" in case they were needed for a spurt in production...of what???...to whom???...as they (Big 3) lost market share on a daily basis, they thought that the market for UAW cars would suddenly jump???...after 25 years of folks running away to Honda & Toy???...maybe the tooth fairy is a better example...
Oh, the Georgia Kia plant opens today, I think...1200 jobs to Atlanta area, plus the suppliers etc....how ironic...I wonder how many former UAW members work at the plant???...anyone guess ZERO???...they never learn, will they???
That's manager talk for covering their [non-permissible content removed] for just doing something stupid. Spending millions on the jobs bank "in case" a production spurt comes up is stupid.
Years ago, an ad ran (Braniff?)..."Is this any way to run an airline???...you bet it is"...
When I look at the UAW and the fiasco that the entire union was, and is, all I can think of is..."Is this any way to run an auto company???...Are you nuts???"
Hey SPAMMER, are you an ex-UAW worker trying to wiki about Gases? :P
Only gasbags need apply.
I think this discussion gets more of the one-off spammers because it's frequently in the top 4 or 5 discussions on the CarSpace landing page.
Steve, Host
CarSpace Hosting Union Local 959 :shades:
When the want for more overruns the need, all is lost. Seems that today's Unions still don't get it.
Why not try to be the most efficient entity for employment which will ensure long term bonds with the companies that are served? :confuse:
Regards,
OW
Ford the only real US auto maker left should have taken that 2200 page UAW contract and in a ceremony burnt it. Then cut it down to about 20 pages and told the UAW sign it or walk. The moment the workers went on strike open up the employment office and hire security to control the thugs the UAW sends out. I can guarantee Ford would get better workers for a lot less than they are paying now. There are literally millions of people out of work that would jump at $14 per hour. And be very happy to get the work. Within a couple months Ford would have good production with very few whiners to deal with. I think that is a better solution than sending the work South of the border.
Shame that wisdom is lost in the fight.
Regards,
OW
What odds you give this of succedeing? 1 out of 5? In this slanted political climate do you believe BO would NOT send in the troops to stop Ford from releasing all the UAW workers from their contract with them? Remember, this is the BO who does nothing to control the incentives and pay at the top Wall STreet firms until recently when a distraction from cap and tax and healthcare is needed to confuse the opposition. Remember this is the BO who fired the GM CEO but left the CEO of UAW intact? Absolutely no need to fire Wagoner without giving Gettel the finger too.
Just as BO didn't clear out the UAW at GM (and C) for political reasons, it will never happen at Ford.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
imidaz: "What odds you give this of succedeing? 1 out of 5? In this slanted political climate do you believe BO would NOT send in the troops to stop Ford from releasing all the UAW workers from their contract with them?"...good question...Hussein Obama got away with what he did, in one sense, because the companies were about to go bankrupt w/o $$$ from the gov't (I say let the process do what it will, but we have seen too much illegal stuff from both Repubs & Dems)...with Ford actually in business w/o gov't interference, it would be interesting if they tore up the UAW contract, re-wrote a 1-5 page contract with NO work restrictions, and told the UAW to take it or leave it...maybe because Ford is "viable" Obama may have stayed away, but your thoughts still make sense, and I am probably the one dreaming...
tlong, "GM News, New Models and Market Share" #7850, 25 Oct 2009 11:30 am
Someone was asking about the CAW the other day. Here's today's blurb:
"As talks with Ford Canada resume, the Canadian Auto Workers union wants its members to reflect on possible cost concessions in a new deal with the carmaker, even if Ford's U.S. parent turns a profit when it reports third-quarter results this week.
"When Ford Motor Co. looks like they're starting to turn a profit, then workers themselves ask, 'Why are sacrifices necessary?"' Lewenza said.
"But Ford in terms of cost structure is at a disadvantage today based on what we did at GM and Chrysler."
CAW emphasizes importance of new Ford contract as negotiations resume (Canadian Press)
Then again, maybe it IS time for Ford to tear up the contract, re-write it under one page (like the tax bill ought to be), and tell the UAW take it or leave it...gagrice is right...there are many people who would be glad to get $14/hour to work, and enough of them could easily overrun the goon squad from the UAW...
It would be fun to watch, as Ford states on TV that they are trying to save American industry and all the UAW could say is that we are trying to keep floorsweepers getting paid $35/hour for their "skills"...
Oh, to see THAT debate on Fox News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully Ford does not follow that same path with the UAW.
"Ford could run short of Ford Edge and Ford Flex models due to a labor dispute at a supplier plant in India that has forced the automaker to close its Oakville, Ontario, assembly plant."
Ford Could Run Short on Some Models Due to India Labor Dispute (AutoObserver)
Older ideas of the dignity of labor seem quaint: anyone who works hard today is a fool, and the smartest person makes the most money with the least effort. Work is what you do to make money for fat greedy scumbags who already have it.
The family itself is a disappearing institution, beset by divorce and two-career marriages. We try to avoid reality by tuning into a mass culture which presents a false image, by trying to pile up personal wealth which may insulate us. We can drive in our air-conditioned cars from our burglar-proof houses in our gated communities to the mall, and back again, and try to avoid awareness of the world in between. We seem to have bought the idea that government hurts more than it helps. We accept the idea that there are no real solutions for social problems. There are no heroes, everyone is out for himself. There are no careers, you go to college and still end up working at a McJob.
People are really worried about NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND A JOB. Five years ago it was not being able to find a decent-paying Job. Now, with the economic collapse. Even the crappy McJobs are gone.
Working class guys aren't stupid. They've known for a while now that the main reason it's so hard to find a job is outsourcing. It takes a real idiot to not realize that if all of the jobs get sent overseas. Since McJobs don't pay CRAP, after a while there won't be anyone who can afford to buy ANYTHING.
Well, now that the crap has hit the fan economically speaking. Even the McJobs are disappearing. Shopping centers and strip malls are starting to look as empty as Main Streets have looked for the last decade.
The rich are completely disconnected from the real economy. They can go anywhere in the world and just buy whatever's still going and take a profit from it.The old assumption was that labor was mobile, and that people would follow the jobs wherever they went. Capital, on the other hand, was supposed to be immobile, having been invested in and largely synonymous with the productive capacity. They would never have imagined that what happened to Detroit (for example) would happen ... literally wasting all that investment in factories, etc.
Instead, the opposite has been proven true. Capital is very mobile, and will let 50 and 100 years of physical investment rust away while it constantly searches for people willing to do more work for less compensation in harsher conditions. Labor, on the other hand, is not mobile, because the factories aren't moving to a place where there's no people; the Chinese and the Mexicans were waiting when the factories got there, and they'll keep those jobs until some poor wretch underbids them.
:confuse:
Ford workers in Missouri overwhelmingly reject contract changes (Yahoo AP)
But opponents say Ford already is healthier than GM and Chrysler, and that workers need to take a stand and stop accepting concessions."...(Bold emphasis is mine)
So, asking workers to do more than one job (does anyone hear the words "Honda" or "Toyota" in the air???) is simply unfair, and the workers need to take a stand because Ford hasn't yet gone bankrupt...
Is there ANYONE in this topic that wishes to post their opinion trying to convince me that UAW people, and now add the skilled trades, have an IQ that is over 70 (idiot-moron level)???...
They are running around believing that Ford is in good shape simply because they aren't in Ch 11...where the heck is rocky???...I want some pro-UAW person to take a stand and try and convince me that these workers have an inkling as to what is going on...
Where do they think the money comes from, trees???...how many MORE jobs will be sent away because of these people, and then folks lament about the "loss of our industrial base"...we haven't lost our industrial base as much as we have lost our basic intelligence, and that is that the company must make money or no one has a job, except maybe the Mexicans and Brazilians...
"But the UAW fought hard for us, grandson, and we showed 'em...we didn't give in...yeah we've been unemployed now for 20 years, but we showed 'em that we won't sweep floors for less than $35/hour, because you just don't treat skilled labor like that, grandson"...
Now is the time for Ford to tear up the contract and just see how the gov't will respond to a company that has no gov't money as a lever...
Sent away to India, where the Ford strike there has already resulted in one death? That strike has resulted in the closing of a Canadian factory. Choose your poison....
My question is why do the workers get 65% of their pay for not working? I thought the whole concept of Jobs Bank was ended this year. Or are the Canadians ripping off Ford?
As far as the Strike in India. Ford needs to diversify production. Don't put all the manufacturing in one plant. We know from the past that invites a strike. Think about the UAW and GM walkouts at the only plants making vehicles that were selling last year. Labor unrest is bound to happen in the emerging countries as they sort out where fair wages and slavery part.
Ahem, they are known as "66 blocks" or Krone blocks, depending on the style.
BTW, we have a no layoff clause in our contract. It doesn't apply to "outside events" like work drying up because of the economy. I would assume if there was a shortage of fiber-optic cable being produced, they couldn't lay off. guess it depends on your definition of "outside event"
Plus, one death in a nation of 1.3 billion people, they have more than that dying daily from lightning strikes, or steer trampling...you think ONE death in some plant is going to mean anything???...especially to THEM???
Maybe there was a bigger difference in your union and the UAW. :-)
Bob/Marsha7, the news about the Ford supplier strike in India said the turmoil resulted in the death of a worker (although one story I skimmed said the victim was a manager). Here's another link from livemint.com. GM and Jag/Land Rover may also be affected by the strike if it continues.
Doesn't really matter, in my mind. No parts, then no vehicles. If no vehicles, then nothing to sell. If nothing sold, then no income. If no income, nothing to pay the workers. Simple.
Happens in other industries all the time.
Thanks for the link...
Maybe I'm dense, but it seems to imply that the workers were violent and one of them died...almost like "friendly fire" if you are part of the workers...it really is not specific enough...
Maybe similar to the crushing of soccer fans...they just keep pushing and folks get crushed...tragic???...yes...does it stop soccer???...no, they simply died for their favorite sport...
It sounds like the whole auto industry is in turmoil in that part of India and unrest is disrupting Honda and Hyundai production, as well as GM and Jag that were mentioned in one of the links. Honda is threatening to shut down their factory entirely.