Unlike previous cost-cutting proposals, including one approved earlier this year, some observers wonder whether Ford’s production employees will agree to swallow another bitter pill. Many in the Ford work force have continued to be angry since August, when Ford brought up the proposal to reopen the 2007 national contract with the United Auto Workers.
Some details of the proposed concessions were disclosed last week, with key elements being a wage freeze on new hires and limits on the ability of Ford’s workers to strike until 2015.
Union leaders from Ford plants around the country approved the tentative agreement last week. After virtually all the local union officials rejected the notion of more concessions in August, the national UAW bargaining team was able to get Ford to agree to a $1,000 bonus for approving the concessions as well as promising new products to some of the plants.
"Many in the Ford work force have continued to be angry since August, when Ford brought up the proposal to reopen the 2007 national contract with the United Auto Workers."...another absurd example of the inherent genetic stupidity of the UAW worker...
They see what happened to GM & C...it is staring them in the face, slapping them like a tsumani against the Indonesia coastline...plus, Ford has mortgaged itself to the hilt, so there appears to be no more equity to borrow against...yet the thought of not striking until 2015 (what is so special about 2015?) drives them nuts...
If Ford had any brains, they ought to fire the entire UAW and start over with new hires TOMORROW...oh, the cost of security may go up awhile (where is Pinkerton's when we need them?) but folks would line up by the 1000s to get a job like that even if it just paid $12/hour plus insurance...
I would bet that security would not even be needed, because the violence of the UAW (and there would be violence because that is how the left wing gets its way) would be OVERWHELMED by the 1000s of applicants who would gladly take a job for $12/hour...
Remember, training them would be a snap because they are probably descendants of all those "toothless, redneck, ignorant hillbillies" that had those jobs before...
Just when you think UAW stupidity could not get any worse, they prove me wrong every time..."Proud to be a UAW member"...yeah, right...
It's not about changing, it's about making do with less so a few can make do with much more.
Isn't that a bit of a cop out statement? Statistics show that people who get a college education earn much more than those who don't. The lesser educated and skilled are not worth as much and are not going to make as much. Even so, in the US, there is a social net - starvation is practically nonexistent, and even the poorest are comparatively rich by world standards.
Those who bust their butts early in life and live below their means (i.e., not go into massive debt buying toys) are almost uniformly successful. Of course there are many who are not successful, but most of those are the under educated and lower motivated individuals. Groups like the UAW want high level standards for low education and work rules that limit their need to be flexible.
For the most part, it is the under educated and the lazy who are having the most problems. And before the flames start, this is generally, statistically true. Of course there are going to be exceptions on both sides.
One of the things I'm telling my teenage kids - "a large part of being successful in life is going to be your ability to delay gratification. You're becoming an adult and you see candy dangling all around you. If you do whatever you want right now, you will pay in future years. If you do what you don't want to (such as study hard), then you won't have as much fun right now, but in 10 or 20 years you will be in much better shape. Most of the people doing poorly at 30 or 40 had an irresponsibly great time in their teens and early 20's."
(deep breath) My, where to start :P I guess the top is a good place.
".....but Honda and Toy should be given awards for fighting to keep unions out.."
Well, I will give you the "featherbedding" aspect, as I would any troublemaking. But the employees should have the right to bargain......IN GOOD FAITH.....(key phrase, extra emphasis on "good"), w/o fear of retribution or job loss.
".....If you look over the last 50 years, I place most blame on the "perceived quality" of UAW Big 3 cars going down the crapper on those who made the car, and that is the assembly workers, the UAW worker, period..."
I know you have first hand experience in the UAW shops, but the employees only assembled the GM diesel, they didn't underengineer it from the beginning. They placed the disastrous variable venturi carbs on the '82-'83 302 Ford V-8's, but they didn't design them. Things like this they cannot be faulted for, but yes, they CAN be held liable for dropping a beer can in a fender, or purposely messing with the alignment on the front suspension or any other type of sabotage. If I spend good money on a car, and put my faith in your product don't let me down. Mistakes happen, but don't stick it up my [non-permissible content removed].
".....That union destroyed American industry, along with every other union that demanded "highly skilled" wages for unskilled work..."
Gary brought up a point I hadn't even considered about our CO techs. That a job can be "dumbed down" or simplified. I'm sure 50 yrs ago the job of assembling a car was "highly skilled". Today, it would seem they have it much easier, with robotics able to do much of the heavy lifting, and some components being pre assembled elsewhere and are just "installed" with a few bolts. So, yes, I can see where a job may "lose value" over time. Other jobs, like a machinist may actually be more complicated (as the equipment they work on is more complex) than they were 50 yrs ago.
".....Everyone has the right to try and make what they can, but to be able to squeeze an employer with collective bargaining, and then be able to force the employer to deal with a union, well, you see the result...the work and the jobs are sent out of the country, because no one can look at the situation and simply speak the truth: the workers are not worth anything close to what they are paid, because the skill level simply does not command that kind of pay..."
"You can't get blood from a stone" Heard it a million times. A union can't squeeze out of a company what isn't there to begin with. If the company truely can't afford X,Y,and Z, then don't pay for it. Would an arbitor award somebody something they aren't entitled to or force somebody to pay for something they can't afford?? They shouldn't.
The one thing I think should be maintained is that delacate balance of power that should exist between employers and employees. Now, I'm not saying that an employer doen't have certain rights and privileges that come with the reward of taking a risk and being successful, but employees aren't slaves or serfs. They should be able to stand up for themselves. Somehow, we say the government isn't capable of running the Post Office or Health Insurance w/o fu%^*)g it up, but they ARE able to ensure that everyone in the workplace (in general, not any specific person) is treated fairly, with equality, and safely?
"(deep breath) My, where to start I guess the top is a good place."...Cute way to begin a response...I like that...esp the "deep breath" part...
"they ought to fire the entire UAW and start over with new hires TOMORROW..."
Would they have the legal right to do this, though???"...
actually, probably not...maybe when the contract expired, and if the UAW struck or simply walked out, then I think Ford could declare negotiations over and fire them and hire others...I am not "up" on that stuff, so I could be (yes, it's true) making an error here...i.e. I could be wrong (gasp)...filing Ch 11 would ordinarily allow the voiding of any contract, as it should have with GM & C, but Obama stuck his nose in it and had this "controlled" Ch 11, where, I believe, the UAW had precedence over the bondholders, when the law usually places bondholders first in line as creditors, after secured creditors...I do not do Ch 11's, so I may be fuzzy on that, too...
I guess when I review the landscape of the last 50 years, I am of the opinion that stupid mgmt errors were only a small part of the death of the Big 3, and that the UAW, with work restrictions, featherbedding and benefits all eating up potential profits, contributed over 80% to the death of the Big 3...mgmt salaries, while ridiculous when the company loses money, was a drop in the financial bucket compared to the cost structure and poorer perceived quality of the UAW...
I know some people made out betting on Ford stock, but I don't like it right now. They've got a good leader in Mulaly if the Ford family doesn't go against him down the road. However, personally I think the large early entrance into the debt market that avoided Ford BK was strongly motivated by the risk that the Ford family might lose its ability to control the company with only around 5% of the "special class" stock equity under BK. This interest expense is going to drag on them for quite awhile while GM got a great escape under BK. Ford is also at a cost disadvantage laborwise since they have a higher cost UAW contract that the rank and file don't appear to want to give up. After WWII Studebaker beat the Big 3 out of the gate with new product that was in high demand. However, being a leveraged company with a rather militant union they could not take advantage. By the mid fifties they could no longer really compete. The UAW in my book is largely responsible for their demise. I suggest they look at the history books. Given the large foreign and foreign transplant competition, combined with the better GM and Chrysler contracts, what the UAW workers see as "theirs" since Ford is making a profit may quickly evaporate down the road. Just ask people like the former USW steel workers what happens when short term greed supercedes long term reality. The only thing going for Ford UAW is that the Canadian CAW seems even more aggressive in screwing Ford's competitive situation. But car buyers don't care about the UAW, if Ford isn't able to compete on price down the road, they'll just shop elsewhere. Unfortunately, the UAW is just as Detroit centric as D3 in their perspective sometimes.
I think Ford could lock out employees if they don't reach agreement after the contract expires (I'm pretty sure Caterpillar and Case successfully used this tactic in the past), but that is a long way down the road and I'm sure there would be political interference. I think what may be more likely is that Ford expands in Mexico and rebadges from other plants around the globe that can be more competitive if the UAW members insist on screwing the company eventually shrinking UAW involvement in the company provided Ford can stay in business down the road with a high debt load and disadvantaged labor contract.
imidaz: "Now that's more plausible than the usual 100% you posit"...I have always thought that mgmt had their share of the blame, but their share, IMO, was simply insignificant compared to the damage done by a half a million (or more) UAW workers...
While I do not justify multi-million dollar bonuses to execs when the company lost money, in the big picture, those millions were a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that UAW work rules and lousy workmanship cost them, so my posting is directed to the UAW member...
Restrictive work rules meant that extra UNNEEDED employees were employed simply for "make work" programs, which had the ONLY effect of reducing productivity and profitability...that is why Honda makes the same volume of autos per plant with 2000 that GM needed 6000...that is a fluorescent red flag if you ask me...
Atrocious attitude of workmanship, or the PERCEIVED lousy workmanship...if the buyer (you and me) just THINKS that the workmanship is poor (doors that don't close properly, hoods and trunks that do not line up, sunroofs that fall out of their tracks), the sale is lost to Honda or Toyota...the fact that there are people who maintain that the UAW has "skilled" workers means they are smoking something that I cannot get, because if you ever met 100 autoworkers, you would be lucky to find them able to sign their name without an "X"...to call them "trained" or "skilled" or "intelligent" is an insult to normal 10th grade dropouts...in my 10 years in Detroit, too many of them could not read or write...calling them "skilled" is a fairy tale...
Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
If their work was simply paid on the actual level of "skill" required to do it, they would barely break $10/hour, and that is pushing it...please tell me why you, or anyone, can actually believe that tightening lug nuts and sweeping floors is actually worth over, say, $5/hour...is it because of the skill required to do it???...uh, maybe the time it took to train them to use a broom or a lug wrench???...(they actually use a machine suspended from the ceiling that installs all 5/6 lug nuts simultaneously...is that "skilled" in your mind???)...it doesn't matter if they are trying to feed a family of five, I am saying look at the skills needed to perform the job, and the UAW is about as unskilled as the lettuce chopper at Mickey D's...honest work???...yes, of course...but skills demanding pay over minimum wage???...hardly...
Health insurance that did not cost them a penny while the rest of the nation had co-pays and deductibles and contribute to the premium...gold plated as gagrice says...then to almost riot when they had to pay 10% of the premium from their inflated paychecks???...talk about spoiled, ignorant children, that's your UAW...
No, mgmt did have a small share in the debacle, but severely overriden by the UAW and all its flaws...the reason for Ch 11 was not mgmt bonuses, it was the lousy product made by the UAW...buyers did not flock to Honda and Toyota in the last 25 years because of GM CEO bonuses, they flocked because they believed that Hondas and Toyotas had superior quality in their vehicles, and it would be hard to argue with them...the lack of perceived quality I place squarely on the backs of the UAW people who control assembly...
"...maybe when the contract expired, and if the UAW struck or simply walked out, then I think Ford could declare negotiations over and fire them and hire others...I am not "up" on that stuff, so I could be (yes, it's true) making an error here...i.e. I could be wrong (gasp)...filing Ch 11 would ordinarily allow the voiding of any contract, as it should have with GM & C, but Obama stuck his nose in it and had this "controlled" Ch 11, where, I believe, the UAW had precedence over the bondholders,"
I don't believe that the end of a labor contract is the same as say a pro athlete's contract. There is some obligation there. I don't think either side can walk away from the table and refuse to bargain, even if there is a strike. While I agree that Ch 11 would allow for the voiding of a contract, I would venture to guess that a judge could allow a contract to remain in place if he/she felt as though the only reason for Ch.11 was to void a contract or all contracts.
As far as the UAW having precedence over the bondholders, that wasn't the case. The VEBA fund, and not the union itself, was placed ahead of the bondholders, as was the government. The "owners" of GM and Chrysler are the Government and the VEBA fund.
When and if the Union goes on strike the company is free to hire people to take their place. The NLRB tries to hold both parties to negotiate in good faith. If the automaker hires and trains people in the interim there is less incentive on the part of the company to settle the contract.
I am not sure I would agree with the 80% UAW fault in the demise of the US automakers. I would say it is at least 50%. The mismanagement goes back decades when they did not get tough with the UAW on past strikes. The biggest mistake GM made was in 1998 when they did not lock out the UAW and call all contracts off. They were not making great profits though they had the retiree health care mill stone around their neck. Past management had created an unsustainable situation. Quite frankly GM should have filed for BK in 1998. Dumped the retirees onto the Feds and started clean without a Union. I am sure politics got in the way of good business practices.
A union can't squeeze out of a company what isn't there to begin with. If the company truely can't afford X,Y,and Z, then don't pay for it.
Oh, but they do and they can. They went on strike last year against GM when the company was losing $40 billion. That is what really upsets me with the UAW. No concern for the economy or the people less fortunate than themselves. How about all the people in Michigan making $10 per hour that are impacted negatively when the UAW goes on strike. All they are thinking about is their greedy selves. The UAW members and leadership are no better than the sleazy CEO making $25 million when the company is losing money. Then they act like they have really given in when they ratify a contract that takes from the new hires and leaves the gold in their pockets. That is not one for all Union thinking. I will Never buy another UAW built vehicle for what they have done to the US automakers. I will try to buy American made vehicles. I don't think the UAW acts in an American patriotic manner.
>Restrictive work rules meant that extra UNNEEDED employees were employed simply for "make work" programs, which had the ONLY effect of reducing productivity and profitability...that is why Honda makes the same volume of autos per plant with 2000 that GM needed 6000...that is a fluorescent red flag if you ask me...
Management agreed to that stuff instead of reducing staffing.
>Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
Management again. But the UAW was greedy.
>#16319 of 16324 Re: Will Fords continue to fall apart? [imidazol97] by marsha7 Oct 20, 2009 (9:38 pm) Replying to: imidazol97 (Oct 20, 2009 8:45 pm)
imidaz: "Now that's more plausible than the usual 100% you posit"...I have always thought that mgmt had their share of the blame, but their share, IMO, was simply insignificant compared to the damage done by a half a million (or more) UAW workers...
While I do not justify multi-million dollar bonuses to execs when the company lost money, in the big picture, those millions were a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that UAW work rules and lousy workmanship cost them, so my posting is directed to the UAW member...
Restrictive work rules meant that extra UNNEEDED employees were employed simply for "make work" programs, which had the ONLY effect of reducing productivity and profitability...that is why Honda makes the same volume of autos per plant with 2000 that GM needed 6000...that is a fluorescent red flag if you ask me...
Atrocious attitude of workmanship, or the PERCEIVED lousy workmanship...if the buyer (you and me) just THINKS that the workmanship is poor (doors that don't close properly, hoods and trunks that do not line up, sunroofs that fall out of their tracks), the sale is lost to Honda or Toyota...the fact that there are people who maintain that the UAW has "skilled" workers means they are smoking something that I cannot get, because if you ever met 100 autoworkers, you would be lucky to find them able to sign their name without an "X"...to call them "trained" or "skilled" or "intelligent" is an insult to normal 10th grade dropouts...in my 10 years in Detroit, too many of them could not read or write...calling them "skilled" is a fairy tale...
Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
>If their work was simply paid on the actual level of "skill" required to do it, they would barely break $10/hour, and that is pushing it...please tell me why you, or anyone, can actually believe that tightening lug nuts and sweeping floors is actually worth over, say, $5/hour...is it because of the skill required to do it???...uh, maybe the time it took to train them to use a broom or a lug wrench???...(they actually use a machine suspended from the ceiling that installs all 5/6 lug nuts simultaneously...is that "skilled" in your mind???)...
I recall a past visit to an attorney to make a will for us. Essentially all he did was use prefab text and insert names. His pay should be commensurate at $10; he can be replaced with LegalZoom.com or the other online services providing the text without the attorney. Same for divorces and bankruptcies. Change the constrictive, protective laws on doing things in court, and the ABA like the UAW could be on the road out of stranglehold on the profession.
cooter: 'As far as the UAW having precedence over the bondholders, that wasn't the case. The VEBA fund, and not the union itself, was placed ahead of the bondholders, as was the government. The "owners" of GM and Chrysler are the Government and the VEBA fund."...you have it correct, and thanks for correcting me on thiose details...
Imidaz: "I recall a past visit to an attorney to make a will for us. Essentially all he did was use prefab text and insert names. His pay should be commensurate at $10; he can be replaced with LegalZoom.com or the other online services providing the text without the attorney. Same for divorces and bankruptcies"...but that is already being done...you seem to forget that I DO compete with that...keep in mind, just like some of us change our own oil and rotate our own tires, some of us also pay others to do those functions...some folks file their own divorces and bankruptcies, others go to folks like me and pay us to do it...I see no difference, do you???...you seem to forget that not EVERYBODY wants to do their own legal work, but I understand those who do...I don't call an electrician to change my light switch at home, I buy one at Ace Hardware for $2.00 and install it myself, rather than pay an electrician $75.00 to come to my house...again, no difference...
Legalzoom provides a service and so do the boilerplate forms sold at Office Depot...so, for YOU, paying the attorney gives you the same opinion that I have about the UAW...for what they did, you were severely overcharged...so, next time, do it yourself...
But if, upon your death, the will is invalid for some procedural reason (like you only had one witness signature instead of 2 or 3 as some states require), don't come crying back to me that you didn't know the rules...
IUE locally at BEHR plant ave to take huge healthcare insurance costs, $32000 before full insurance cuts in? Threaten to close plant if union doesn't do what company wants. Or else.
Details of the contract are not readily available. The TV talking head was waving the contract language copy last night but the text is not available anywhere for specific details on cuts and concessions.
Is this a case of lazy overpaid auto AC parts workers for C and GM being overpaid? Or is it a company attempting to raise their profit margin to new highs for the capitalist system?
BTW, the workers get $27,000 per year. Note the $32,000 out-of-pocket before full health insurance kicks in.
These 800 workers, more or less, have not had a contract for 12 years.
That brings up a very interesting point. Over the last 12 years we have experienced Two boom cycles. The Dot.com bubble and the housing bubble. To my way of thinking those workers felt the pay they were getting was as much as they were worth for those 12 years. If not there were many opportunities in the boom times to better themselves. It is hard to imagine living with the same expired contract for that many years. We started pushing hard when our contracts were a few months past due. I can never remember signing on or before the expiration date. Companies are notorious for dragging their feet. We never worried as our contracts all included a retroactive clause that included back pay.
My question for those 840 Union Members. Why are you still working for that company? If a person believes they are under paid for their skill level, they should look for another job. When they land a better job, quit the old one explaining to the boss why you are leaving. If they cannot find a better job, they have reached the peak of their worth. In many cases the Union will hold down good employees to keep poor ones working.
I have no love for the UAW, but GM's method of dealing with labor relations seemed to alternate between wishing the union away and then giving away the store at negotiation time. That is management's fault.
Prior to the market collapse last year, Ford had already negotiated competitive labor operating agreements with the UAW for virtually all of its U.S. plants, while GM had barely started on that effort.
That is poor management of a critical aspect of company operations, plain and simple.
Did you watch the video interviewing Rattner re the friendly firing of Wagoner and the reaction toward Gettelfinger? I would like to know your opinions after watching that, if you have any to share. My thinking is Gettelfinger should have been gone in Rattner's mind but he was not in a position to effect that dismissal.
"Certainly Rick and his team seemed to believe that virtually all of their problems could be laid at the feet of some combination of the financial crisis, oil prices, the yen-dollar exchange rate and the UAW," Rattner wrote."
Jeez, let a guy have a typo once in awhile...sheesh...it should have been wires...
wait, I have the best excuse...I had hired someone to type it for me, and she was a former UAW assembly worker...that's what I get for lowering my standards...her former job was lifting engine blocks...BEFORE THEY HAD HYDRAULIC ASSIST...when I say she's tough, I mean she's tough...
andre1969 and the rest of the posting crowd: "how tough was she?"...
She was so tough, she could suck the chrome off the bumper of a Buick without taking a deep breath first...that's how tough she was... :P :shades:
Sounded more like wars to me when I lived down there. You had to watch out for them when changing your earl.
Mums the word.
“Ford Motor Co. executives are taking pains to be very careful in what they say, and don't say, about a big vote being taken by the UAW, and an important earnings report coming up.
Obviously, I'm very grateful to the UAW leadership for helping us through this last few years and continuing to make us competitive,” said Executive Chairman Bill Ford."
I have the feeling that Mr. Rattner was probably breathing a sigh of relief that firing Mr. Gettelfinger was beyond his authority. I don't believe that he liked firing Mr. Wagoner, or that he did it with relish.
I didn't get the impression that he placed the same amount of responsibility on Mr. Gettelfinger and the UAW for GM's condition as Mr. Wagoner did.
My impression is that Mr. Rattner was not some power-mad bureaucrat happy to throw his weight around in what was once an industrial colossus. He did want to help get GM back on track, and was rather shocked at how bad things were there, especially in regard to its Finance Department.
Interestingly, when Iacocca went to Chrysler in 1978, he was stunned at how badly run the Finance Department was in that company. Since Chrysler had been run by accountants for over a decade, he figured that this was one area the company would get right. This was his biggest - and most unpleasant - surprise when he went to Chrysler. I get the impression that Mr. Rattner felt the same about what he discovered at GM.
My view? The UAW was a problem, but not an insurmountable one. The union sure hasn't helped in a lot of ways, but I can't place the blame for GM's demise solely at its doorstep.
The UAW was a problem, but not an insurmountable one. The union sure hasn't helped in a lot of ways, but I can't place the blame for GM's demise solely at its doorstep.
Did you read the article on CNN our host posted in post #16341? It is utterly shocking that an American corporation had management that were that oblivious on how to run a company and were totally out of touch with the competition in their industry.
The sad thing is that only the head guy at GM lost his job, and then got a golden parachute at that! IMO, the board of directors and entire senior mgmt. team should have been walked out the door with nothing, at GM, Chrylser, and all the damn banks.
And my tax payer dollars kept these bozos employed with the bailouts.
:ANGRY:
History repeats itself again and again. Every great organization, country or civilization has been destroyed by greed and corruption. And the good old USofA is next.
a bit of union mentality. I hope this isn't typical. We had a memo come out today about vacation/leave balances. We switched companies back in May, and any vacation leave we had was paid out to us. With the new company, leave accrual started all over, from zero. However, as a favor, they let us go negative, up to 40 hours, so that if we had vacations planned we wouldn't have to take leave without pay. Only catch was they wanted our leave balances to be positive, or at least zero, by the end of the year.
Well, with something like 5 pay periods left, a memo came out, reminding us to get those leave balances back up by the end of the year. This dude in the next cubicle over, a Russian guy who moved here from NYC about a year ago (so he had very little leave saved up anyway) went off the handle about it, carrying on about crappy accounting practices, and how it's not the employees' fault that our contract end-date got moved back repeatedly, and all sorts of other stuff that has nothing to do with anything. And then, suddenly, a revelation came from his mouth..."If this was a union, none of the employees would have showed up to work!" Evidently, whereever he used to work before us, was union.
So just because corporate sends out a reminder to get your leave balances out of the red, that's reason to call a strike?! :confuse: I really don't have much experience in unions, but if this type of attitude is typical, no wonder we're in such a bind!
This guy also whines about how much child care is down here, where evidently in NYC it was provided by the gov't so it was free? Well, he got miffed when I told him that just because the gov't was providing it doesn't mean it's free...it means that We The People are footing the bill. He was actually offended at the thought that, God Forbid, he bear some of the cost of caring for his kids! And yet, he somehow found the money (or credit at least) to buy a pair of $200+ jeans. Can't say as I have too much sympathy for his financial plight.
I realize that it is not right to overgeneralize, so I will anyway...
Whether this Russian was previously unionized, I don't know, but he is expressing what I simply call the "union welfare entitlement mentality" that, to me, is destroying this country from the inside...the only difference between them and welfare recipients is that the union does show up for work...
I never cease to be amazed to read that gagrice's union actually took into account whether or not their company made money...if the UAW and other unions had that attitude, plus allowed companies to drop deadwood overnight instead of protecting their jobs with 2 years of grievance appeals, the automakers may have been OK, and companies in general may have been better overall...
But as it stands now, I see unions as the fungus killing American industry and business, as it looks out for the employee, but does not care about the company...if they don't care about the company, then the company goes bankrupt and we now have union members, but without jobs...a lot of good the union does for them, eh???
ever comes true, and the UAW is busted, what will I do for continuing entertainment???...this is an ongoing topic, and, aside from a few questions on specific vehicle topics, or auto insurance and gap insurance, I will have nothing to look forward to each day...:):):)...so, I guess, be careful what I wosh for, as I just might get it...
A friend of mine worked as a firefighter for a city near Detroit...they were allowed to accumulate (bank) ANY unused PTO...he banked so much time, literally, that he retired with 25 years service at 23 years...he really did bank 2 years worth of PTO...amazing...
"..... You want to keep out foreign manufacturers who would charge me $8 for a vase that would cost me $10 if I bought it from a domestic manufacturer. So now I'm $2 poorer because your interpretation of "the good of the country" is that American vasemakers have a right to their jobs that trumps my right to get the most for my hard-earned, after-tax dollars."
My thought for "good of the country" is not that the American vasemaker has a right to a job, but more in the sense that the "vasemaker" HAS a job, and the salary that goes along with it, to be able to purchase a product or service from you.
Now, does the foreign vasemaker have a right to compete here?? Yes. But where we should keep the "tax" option open is if we believe that something unfair is going on. Suppose that vase was $6. If people in the vase industry are saying there is no way that vase could be made there, shipped here, and sold for $6 w/o some sort of funny business (product dumping, gov't subsidy, etc...) and not just a salary discrepancy. Or, how about if it was a Tiffany vase that sold for $100 here, but the other country made it so difficult to sell there, the few they did sell were for $300 because of unfair taxes or restrictions, just to protect their companies.
Now we can talk about how this type of manufacturing may be a dead end job, and how the vasemakers should be ready to retrain themselves for other jobs, and to be willing to relocate to where those jobs are, but I read (GOD, I wish I could find the article online) where right now there are 6 unemployed people for every 1 available job in this country. If true, where are these "jobs" for the other 5 coming from??? And I'll bet we are losing more than $2 in extra taxes or lost tax rebates paying their unemployment compensation.
".....My question for those 840 Union Members. Why are you still working for that company? If a person believes they are under paid for their skill level, they should look for another job. "
Gary, where are they going to go??? There's very little work available right now.
Not to mention costs associated with crime, reduced quality of life, prisons, law enforcement, alcohol and drug dependency, neglected and abused children, etc...
Let's stick to UAW related stuff please. People are complaining that we're all over the map in here talking about a lot of tangential stuff. The war was 60+ years ago - let it go. :-)
If you notice some gaps in the post numbers, that's why.
".....My question for those 840 Union Members. Why are you still working for that company? If a person believes they are under paid for their skill level, they should look for another job. "
Gary, where are they going to go??? There's very little work available right now.
the right to SEEK employment anywhere they wish...but they do not have a RIGHT to the employment of their choice, if that employment does not want to hire them...the market offers them a wage for what they do...if they do not like it, they should 1. leave for the same job at better wages 2. re-train so they are worth more
The UAW folks believe that the Big 3 exist so they can have their unskilled overpaid jobs...not that GM exists for a profit, but that the company was established so they could have jobs...maybe rocky was right, they are uneducated hillbillies, because NO company was ever established for creating jobs, but that the jobs were created because there was (or would be) sufficient profits to pay them..
When the UAW brain thinks, they believe that even if GM went Ch 7 and liquidated, that someone OWES them a check because "we gotta union"...
They fooled themselves for 50 years, and got away with it so long they believe it is normal reality...their pea-sized brains would testify under oath that sweeping floors is worth $35/hour because of the "skill and training" involved in doing it...even tho you could teach a 10 year old in 3 minutes how to use a broom...for 50 years, the pay WAS real, but the house of cards wasn't...now the house is gone...
When the UAW workers went on strike nearly 4 years ago there were plenty of jobs. The Unemployment was under 5%. The Union mentality is such that they believed they were worth more than they were and are. They were replaced by other workers and most of the UAW members that decided working was better than strike pay and donuts. The UAW members did vote to kick that bunch of UAW leeches out.
You seem to think the Government should step in and help. The government has not stopped the stream of illegal workers willing to under cut the going wage in many fields. Skilled and non skilled.
"..... Why are you still working for that company? If a person believes they are under paid for their skill level, they should look for another job. "
Gary, that was your statement in regards to these employees at BEHR, not GM 4 years ago. I believe even you said you wouldn't vote for that contract. I don't think the government should help, I'm just pointing out that there are no jobs in this country for them to look for right now.
You are right. I was still thinking about the UAW guys at Conn music.
Now it will become interesting at Behr. Company offers contract. Take it or leave it. Workers vote overwhelmingly to leave it. So this is where the poker game begins. My guess is the company will implement the conditions in the final offer. If the workers go on strike the company has to make a decision. Either shut down. Open up the hiring office for non union people, or give into the Union. My bet is the AC units for GM start arriving from China shortly. It is also possible to call in arbitrators if that was a condition of the contract.
it worked for AK STeel in the area a few years back. Had a strike for about a year and then settled on what the take it or leave it offer was essentially.
As for someone suggesting the 840 just go get other jobs..., the job climate in this area is very poor for those with medium skill levels. We have lots thousands of lost jobs with Delphi and GM. It's nice to say "just go get another job" but there ain't none. In your area of the country things may be much better, but we're in essentially a depression which Joe Biden would probably agree with.
>My bet is the AC units for GM start arriving from China shortly.
I get the feeling BEHR has other plants which can produce the same product.
Comments
Some details of the proposed concessions were disclosed last week, with key elements being a wage freeze on new hires and limits on the ability of Ford’s workers to strike until 2015.
Union leaders from Ford plants around the country approved the tentative agreement last week. After virtually all the local union officials rejected the notion of more concessions in August, the national UAW bargaining team was able to get Ford to agree to a $1,000 bonus for approving the concessions as well as promising new products to some of the plants.
Claycomo
Regards,
OW
They see what happened to GM & C...it is staring them in the face, slapping them like a tsumani against the Indonesia coastline...plus, Ford has mortgaged itself to the hilt, so there appears to be no more equity to borrow against...yet the thought of not striking until 2015 (what is so special about 2015?) drives them nuts...
If Ford had any brains, they ought to fire the entire UAW and start over with new hires TOMORROW...oh, the cost of security may go up awhile (where is Pinkerton's when we need them?) but folks would line up by the 1000s to get a job like that even if it just paid $12/hour plus insurance...
I would bet that security would not even be needed, because the violence of the UAW (and there would be violence because that is how the left wing gets its way) would be OVERWHELMED by the 1000s of applicants who would gladly take a job for $12/hour...
Remember, training them would be a snap because they are probably descendants of all those "toothless, redneck, ignorant hillbillies" that had those jobs before...
Just when you think UAW stupidity could not get any worse, they prove me wrong every time..."Proud to be a UAW member"...yeah, right...
GM and Chrysler just went through Chapter 11, and, with some limitations I guess, they could have dumped the unions.
Of course, they'd still be in Ch. 11 if they had tried....
Isn't that a bit of a cop out statement? Statistics show that people who get a college education earn much more than those who don't. The lesser educated and skilled are not worth as much and are not going to make as much. Even so, in the US, there is a social net - starvation is practically nonexistent, and even the poorest are comparatively rich by world standards.
Those who bust their butts early in life and live below their means (i.e., not go into massive debt buying toys) are almost uniformly successful. Of course there are many who are not successful, but most of those are the under educated and lower motivated individuals. Groups like the UAW want high level standards for low education and work rules that limit their need to be flexible.
For the most part, it is the under educated and the lazy who are having the most problems. And before the flames start, this is generally, statistically true. Of course there are going to be exceptions on both sides.
One of the things I'm telling my teenage kids - "a large part of being successful in life is going to be your ability to delay gratification. You're becoming an adult and you see candy dangling all around you. If you do whatever you want right now, you will pay in future years. If you do what you don't want to (such as study hard), then you won't have as much fun right now, but in 10 or 20 years you will be in much better shape. Most of the people doing poorly at 30 or 40 had an irresponsibly great time in their teens and early 20's."
".....but Honda and Toy should be given awards for fighting to keep unions out.."
Well, I will give you the "featherbedding" aspect, as I would any troublemaking. But the employees should have the right to bargain......IN GOOD FAITH.....(key phrase, extra emphasis on "good"), w/o fear of retribution or job loss.
".....If you look over the last 50 years, I place most blame on the "perceived quality" of UAW Big 3 cars going down the crapper on those who made the car, and that is the assembly workers, the UAW worker, period..."
I know you have first hand experience in the UAW shops, but the employees only assembled the GM diesel, they didn't underengineer it from the beginning. They placed the disastrous variable venturi carbs on the '82-'83 302 Ford V-8's, but they didn't design them. Things like this they cannot be faulted for, but yes, they CAN be held liable for dropping a beer can in a fender, or purposely messing with the alignment on the front suspension or any other type of sabotage. If I spend good money on a car, and put my faith in your product don't let me down. Mistakes happen, but don't stick it up my [non-permissible content removed].
".....That union destroyed American industry, along with every other union that demanded "highly skilled" wages for unskilled work..."
Gary brought up a point I hadn't even considered about our CO techs. That a job can be "dumbed down" or simplified. I'm sure 50 yrs ago the job of assembling a car was "highly skilled". Today, it would seem they have it much easier, with robotics able to do much of the heavy lifting, and some components being pre assembled elsewhere and are just "installed" with a few bolts. So, yes, I can see where a job may "lose value" over time. Other jobs, like a machinist may actually be more complicated (as the equipment they work on is more complex) than they were 50 yrs ago.
".....Everyone has the right to try and make what they can, but to be able to squeeze an employer with collective bargaining, and then be able to force the employer to deal with a union, well, you see the result...the work and the jobs are sent out of the country, because no one can look at the situation and simply speak the truth: the workers are not worth anything close to what they are paid, because the skill level simply does not command that kind of pay..."
"You can't get blood from a stone" Heard it a million times. A union can't squeeze out of a company what isn't there to begin with. If the company truely can't afford X,Y,and Z, then don't pay for it. Would an arbitor award somebody something they aren't entitled to or force somebody to pay for something they can't afford?? They shouldn't.
The one thing I think should be maintained is that delacate balance of power that should exist between employers and employees. Now, I'm not saying that an employer doen't have certain rights and privileges that come with the reward of taking a risk and being successful, but employees aren't slaves or serfs. They should be able to stand up for themselves. Somehow, we say the government isn't capable of running the Post Office or Health Insurance w/o fu%^*)g it up, but they ARE able to ensure that everyone in the workplace (in general, not any specific person) is treated fairly, with equality, and safely?
Would they have the legal right to do this, though???
"they ought to fire the entire UAW and start over with new hires TOMORROW..."
Would they have the legal right to do this, though???"...
actually, probably not...maybe when the contract expired, and if the UAW struck or simply walked out, then I think Ford could declare negotiations over and fire them and hire others...I am not "up" on that stuff, so I could be (yes, it's true) making an error here...i.e. I could be wrong (gasp)...filing Ch 11 would ordinarily allow the voiding of any contract, as it should have with GM & C, but Obama stuck his nose in it and had this "controlled" Ch 11, where, I believe, the UAW had precedence over the bondholders, when the law usually places bondholders first in line as creditors, after secured creditors...I do not do Ch 11's, so I may be fuzzy on that, too...
I guess when I review the landscape of the last 50 years, I am of the opinion that stupid mgmt errors were only a small part of the death of the Big 3, and that the UAW, with work restrictions, featherbedding and benefits all eating up potential profits, contributed over 80% to the death of the Big 3...mgmt salaries, while ridiculous when the company loses money, was a drop in the financial bucket compared to the cost structure and poorer perceived quality of the UAW...
I think Ford could lock out employees if they don't reach agreement after the contract expires (I'm pretty sure Caterpillar and Case successfully used this tactic in the past), but that is a long way down the road and I'm sure there would be political interference. I think what may be more likely is that Ford expands in Mexico and rebadges from other plants around the globe that can be more competitive if the UAW members insist on screwing the company eventually shrinking UAW involvement in the company provided Ford can stay in business down the road with a high debt load and disadvantaged labor contract.
While I do not justify multi-million dollar bonuses to execs when the company lost money, in the big picture, those millions were a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that UAW work rules and lousy workmanship cost them, so my posting is directed to the UAW member...
Restrictive work rules meant that extra UNNEEDED employees were employed simply for "make work" programs, which had the ONLY effect of reducing productivity and profitability...that is why Honda makes the same volume of autos per plant with 2000 that GM needed 6000...that is a fluorescent red flag if you ask me...
Atrocious attitude of workmanship, or the PERCEIVED lousy workmanship...if the buyer (you and me) just THINKS that the workmanship is poor (doors that don't close properly, hoods and trunks that do not line up, sunroofs that fall out of their tracks), the sale is lost to Honda or Toyota...the fact that there are people who maintain that the UAW has "skilled" workers means they are smoking something that I cannot get, because if you ever met 100 autoworkers, you would be lucky to find them able to sign their name without an "X"...to call them "trained" or "skilled" or "intelligent" is an insult to normal 10th grade dropouts...in my 10 years in Detroit, too many of them could not read or write...calling them "skilled" is a fairy tale...
Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
If their work was simply paid on the actual level of "skill" required to do it, they would barely break $10/hour, and that is pushing it...please tell me why you, or anyone, can actually believe that tightening lug nuts and sweeping floors is actually worth over, say, $5/hour...is it because of the skill required to do it???...uh, maybe the time it took to train them to use a broom or a lug wrench???...(they actually use a machine suspended from the ceiling that installs all 5/6 lug nuts simultaneously...is that "skilled" in your mind???)...it doesn't matter if they are trying to feed a family of five, I am saying look at the skills needed to perform the job, and the UAW is about as unskilled as the lettuce chopper at Mickey D's...honest work???...yes, of course...but skills demanding pay over minimum wage???...hardly...
Health insurance that did not cost them a penny while the rest of the nation had co-pays and deductibles and contribute to the premium...gold plated as gagrice says...then to almost riot when they had to pay 10% of the premium from their inflated paychecks???...talk about spoiled, ignorant children, that's your UAW...
No, mgmt did have a small share in the debacle, but severely overriden by the UAW and all its flaws...the reason for Ch 11 was not mgmt bonuses, it was the lousy product made by the UAW...buyers did not flock to Honda and Toyota in the last 25 years because of GM CEO bonuses, they flocked because they believed that Hondas and Toyotas had superior quality in their vehicles, and it would be hard to argue with them...the lack of perceived quality I place squarely on the backs of the UAW people who control assembly...
I don't believe that the end of a labor contract is the same as say a pro athlete's contract. There is some obligation there. I don't think either side can walk away from the table and refuse to bargain, even if there is a strike. While I agree that Ch 11 would allow for the voiding of a contract, I would venture to guess that a judge could allow a contract to remain in place if he/she felt as though the only reason for Ch.11 was to void a contract or all contracts.
As far as the UAW having precedence over the bondholders, that wasn't the case. The VEBA fund, and not the union itself, was placed ahead of the bondholders, as was the government. The "owners" of GM and Chrysler are the Government and the VEBA fund.
I am not sure I would agree with the 80% UAW fault in the demise of the US automakers. I would say it is at least 50%. The mismanagement goes back decades when they did not get tough with the UAW on past strikes. The biggest mistake GM made was in 1998 when they did not lock out the UAW and call all contracts off. They were not making great profits though they had the retiree health care mill stone around their neck. Past management had created an unsustainable situation. Quite frankly GM should have filed for BK in 1998. Dumped the retirees onto the Feds and started clean without a Union. I am sure politics got in the way of good business practices.
Oh, but they do and they can. They went on strike last year against GM when the company was losing $40 billion. That is what really upsets me with the UAW. No concern for the economy or the people less fortunate than themselves. How about all the people in Michigan making $10 per hour that are impacted negatively when the UAW goes on strike. All they are thinking about is their greedy selves. The UAW members and leadership are no better than the sleazy CEO making $25 million when the company is losing money. Then they act like they have really given in when they ratify a contract that takes from the new hires and leaves the gold in their pockets. That is not one for all Union thinking. I will Never buy another UAW built vehicle for what they have done to the US automakers. I will try to buy American made vehicles. I don't think the UAW acts in an American patriotic manner.
Management agreed to that stuff instead of reducing staffing.
>Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
Management again.
But the UAW was greedy.
>#16319 of 16324 Re: Will Fords continue to fall apart? [imidazol97] by marsha7 Oct 20, 2009 (9:38 pm)
Replying to: imidazol97 (Oct 20, 2009 8:45 pm)
imidaz: "Now that's more plausible than the usual 100% you posit"...I have always thought that mgmt had their share of the blame, but their share, IMO, was simply insignificant compared to the damage done by a half a million (or more) UAW workers...
While I do not justify multi-million dollar bonuses to execs when the company lost money, in the big picture, those millions were a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that UAW work rules and lousy workmanship cost them, so my posting is directed to the UAW member...
Restrictive work rules meant that extra UNNEEDED employees were employed simply for "make work" programs, which had the ONLY effect of reducing productivity and profitability...that is why Honda makes the same volume of autos per plant with 2000 that GM needed 6000...that is a fluorescent red flag if you ask me...
Atrocious attitude of workmanship, or the PERCEIVED lousy workmanship...if the buyer (you and me) just THINKS that the workmanship is poor (doors that don't close properly, hoods and trunks that do not line up, sunroofs that fall out of their tracks), the sale is lost to Honda or Toyota...the fact that there are people who maintain that the UAW has "skilled" workers means they are smoking something that I cannot get, because if you ever met 100 autoworkers, you would be lucky to find them able to sign their name without an "X"...to call them "trained" or "skilled" or "intelligent" is an insult to normal 10th grade dropouts...in my 10 years in Detroit, too many of them could not read or write...calling them "skilled" is a fairy tale...
Stupid programs like Jobs Bank that were simply welfare, and, yes, mgmt agreed to it...but for workers to spend all day eating donuts and then to believe they are worth what they are paid is beyond ludicrous...
>If their work was simply paid on the actual level of "skill" required to do it, they would barely break $10/hour, and that is pushing it...please tell me why you, or anyone, can actually believe that tightening lug nuts and sweeping floors is actually worth over, say, $5/hour...is it because of the skill required to do it???...uh, maybe the time it took to train them to use a broom or a lug wrench???...(they actually use a machine suspended from the ceiling that installs all 5/6 lug nuts simultaneously...is that "skilled" in your mind???)...
I recall a past visit to an attorney to make a will for us. Essentially all he did was use prefab text and insert names. His pay should be commensurate at $10; he can be replaced with LegalZoom.com or the other online services providing the text without the attorney. Same for divorces and bankruptcies. Change the constrictive, protective laws on doing things in court, and the ABA like the UAW could be on the road out of stranglehold on the profession.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Imidaz: "I recall a past visit to an attorney to make a will for us. Essentially all he did was use prefab text and insert names. His pay should be commensurate at $10; he can be replaced with LegalZoom.com or the other online services providing the text without the attorney. Same for divorces and bankruptcies"...but that is already being done...you seem to forget that I DO compete with that...keep in mind, just like some of us change our own oil and rotate our own tires, some of us also pay others to do those functions...some folks file their own divorces and bankruptcies, others go to folks like me and pay us to do it...I see no difference, do you???...you seem to forget that not EVERYBODY wants to do their own legal work, but I understand those who do...I don't call an electrician to change my light switch at home, I buy one at Ace Hardware for $2.00 and install it myself, rather than pay an electrician $75.00 to come to my house...again, no difference...
Legalzoom provides a service and so do the boilerplate forms sold at Office Depot...so, for YOU, paying the attorney gives you the same opinion that I have about the UAW...for what they did, you were severely overcharged...so, next time, do it yourself...
But if, upon your death, the will is invalid for some procedural reason (like you only had one witness signature instead of 2 or 3 as some states require), don't come crying back to me that you didn't know the rules...
whiotv.com
link title
Details of the contract are not readily available. The TV talking head was waving the contract language copy last night but the text is not available anywhere for specific details on cuts and concessions.
Is this a case of lazy overpaid auto AC parts workers for C and GM being overpaid? Or is it a company attempting to raise their profit margin to new highs for the capitalist system?
BTW, the workers get $27,000 per year. Note the $32,000 out-of-pocket before full health insurance kicks in.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Those few words sum it up perfectly. Well said!
Kip
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Instead of using "vase" as the exemplar, maybe we should use "coffee cup" since someone is going to "mug" us. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That brings up a very interesting point. Over the last 12 years we have experienced Two boom cycles. The Dot.com bubble and the housing bubble. To my way of thinking those workers felt the pay they were getting was as much as they were worth for those 12 years. If not there were many opportunities in the boom times to better themselves. It is hard to imagine living with the same expired contract for that many years. We started pushing hard when our contracts were a few months past due. I can never remember signing on or before the expiration date. Companies are notorious for dragging their feet. We never worried as our contracts all included a retroactive clause that included back pay.
My question for those 840 Union Members. Why are you still working for that company? If a person believes they are under paid for their skill level, they should look for another job. When they land a better job, quit the old one explaining to the boss why you are leaving. If they cannot find a better job, they have reached the peak of their worth. In many cases the Union will hold down good employees to keep poor ones working.
I like that! Wish that I had thought of it.
He was saying the UAW was at fault in problems as well as management of GM.
http://money.cnn.com/video/fortune/2009/10/20/f_sl_rattner_GM_Wagoner.fortune/in- dex.html#cnnSTCVideo
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Prior to the market collapse last year, Ford had already negotiated competitive labor operating agreements with the UAW for virtually all of its U.S. plants, while GM had barely started on that effort.
That is poor management of a critical aspect of company operations, plain and simple.
Did you watch the video interviewing Rattner re the friendly firing of Wagoner and the reaction toward Gettelfinger? I would like to know your opinions after watching that, if you have any to share. My thinking is Gettelfinger should have been gone in Rattner's mind but he was not in a position to effect that dismissal.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Auto task force shocked by state of GM, Chrysler (AP)
Full blurb at Fortune.
I thought that was the job of a pimp, not an electrician? :P
wait, I have the best excuse...I had hired someone to type it for me, and she was a former UAW assembly worker...that's what I get for lowering my standards...her former job was lifting engine blocks...BEFORE THEY HAD HYDRAULIC ASSIST...when I say she's tough, I mean she's tough...
andre1969 and the rest of the posting crowd: "how tough was she?"...
She was so tough, she could suck the chrome off the bumper of a Buick without taking a deep breath first...that's how tough she was... :P
She's been around a while. It's been a long time since bumpers had chrome on Buicks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Mums the word.
“Ford Motor Co. executives are taking pains to be very careful in what they say, and don't say, about a big vote being taken by the UAW, and an important earnings report coming up.
Obviously, I'm very grateful to the UAW leadership for helping us through this last few years and continuing to make us competitive,” said Executive Chairman Bill Ford."
Ford Awaits Critical UAW Vote (WWJ)
I didn't get the impression that he placed the same amount of responsibility on Mr. Gettelfinger and the UAW for GM's condition as Mr. Wagoner did.
My impression is that Mr. Rattner was not some power-mad bureaucrat happy to throw his weight around in what was once an industrial colossus. He did want to help get GM back on track, and was rather shocked at how bad things were there, especially in regard to its Finance Department.
Interestingly, when Iacocca went to Chrysler in 1978, he was stunned at how badly run the Finance Department was in that company. Since Chrysler had been run by accountants for over a decade, he figured that this was one area the company would get right. This was his biggest - and most unpleasant - surprise when he went to Chrysler. I get the impression that Mr. Rattner felt the same about what he discovered at GM.
My view? The UAW was a problem, but not an insurmountable one. The union sure hasn't helped in a lot of ways, but I can't place the blame for GM's demise solely at its doorstep.
Did you read the article on CNN our host posted in post #16341? It is utterly shocking that an American corporation had management that were that oblivious on how to run a company and were totally out of touch with the competition in their industry.
The sad thing is that only the head guy at GM lost his job, and then got a golden parachute at that! IMO, the board of directors and entire senior mgmt. team should have been walked out the door with nothing, at GM, Chrylser, and all the damn banks.
And my tax payer dollars kept these bozos employed with the bailouts.
:ANGRY:
History repeats itself again and again. Every great organization, country or civilization has been destroyed by greed and corruption. And the good old USofA is next.
Kip
Well, with something like 5 pay periods left, a memo came out, reminding us to get those leave balances back up by the end of the year. This dude in the next cubicle over, a Russian guy who moved here from NYC about a year ago (so he had very little leave saved up anyway) went off the handle about it, carrying on about crappy accounting practices, and how it's not the employees' fault that our contract end-date got moved back repeatedly, and all sorts of other stuff that has nothing to do with anything. And then, suddenly, a revelation came from his mouth..."If this was a union, none of the employees would have showed up to work!" Evidently, whereever he used to work before us, was union.
So just because corporate sends out a reminder to get your leave balances out of the red, that's reason to call a strike?! :confuse: I really don't have much experience in unions, but if this type of attitude is typical, no wonder we're in such a bind!
This guy also whines about how much child care is down here, where evidently in NYC it was provided by the gov't so it was free? Well, he got miffed when I told him that just because the gov't was providing it doesn't mean it's free...it means that We The People are footing the bill. He was actually offended at the thought that, God Forbid, he bear some of the cost of caring for his kids! And yet, he somehow found the money (or credit at least) to buy a pair of $200+ jeans. Can't say as I have too much sympathy for his financial plight.
Whether this Russian was previously unionized, I don't know, but he is expressing what I simply call the "union welfare entitlement mentality" that, to me, is destroying this country from the inside...the only difference between them and welfare recipients is that the union does show up for work...
I never cease to be amazed to read that gagrice's union actually took into account whether or not their company made money...if the UAW and other unions had that attitude, plus allowed companies to drop deadwood overnight instead of protecting their jobs with 2 years of grievance appeals, the automakers may have been OK, and companies in general may have been better overall...
But as it stands now, I see unions as the fungus killing American industry and business, as it looks out for the employee, but does not care about the company...if they don't care about the company, then the company goes bankrupt and we now have union members, but without jobs...a lot of good the union does for them, eh???
A friend of mine worked as a firefighter for a city near Detroit...they were allowed to accumulate (bank) ANY unused PTO...he banked so much time, literally, that he retired with 25 years service at 23 years...he really did bank 2 years worth of PTO...amazing...
My thought for "good of the country" is not that the American vasemaker has a right to a job, but more in the sense that the "vasemaker" HAS a job, and the salary that goes along with it, to be able to purchase a product or service from you.
Now, does the foreign vasemaker have a right to compete here?? Yes. But where we should keep the "tax" option open is if we believe that something unfair is going on. Suppose that vase was $6. If people in the vase industry are saying there is no way that vase could be made there, shipped here, and sold for $6 w/o some sort of funny business (product dumping, gov't subsidy, etc...) and not just a salary discrepancy. Or, how about if it was a Tiffany vase that sold for $100 here, but the other country made it so difficult to sell there, the few they did sell were for $300 because of unfair taxes or restrictions, just to protect their companies.
Now we can talk about how this type of manufacturing may be a dead end job, and how the vasemakers should be ready to retrain themselves for other jobs, and to be willing to relocate to where those jobs are, but I read (GOD, I wish I could find the article online) where right now there are 6 unemployed people for every 1 available job in this country. If true, where are these "jobs" for the other 5 coming from??? And I'll bet we are losing more than $2 in extra taxes or lost tax rebates paying their unemployment compensation.
Gary, where are they going to go??? There's very little work available right now.
I wonder how the BEHR management healthcare contracts read and how they are compensated?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you notice some gaps in the post numbers, that's why.
Thanks!
Gary, where are they going to go??? There's very little work available right now.
Then they're not underpaid.
1. leave for the same job at better wages
2. re-train so they are worth more
The UAW folks believe that the Big 3 exist so they can have their unskilled overpaid jobs...not that GM exists for a profit, but that the company was established so they could have jobs...maybe rocky was right, they are uneducated hillbillies, because NO company was ever established for creating jobs, but that the jobs were created because there was (or would be) sufficient profits to pay them..
When the UAW brain thinks, they believe that even if GM went Ch 7 and liquidated, that someone OWES them a check because "we gotta union"...
They fooled themselves for 50 years, and got away with it so long they believe it is normal reality...their pea-sized brains would testify under oath that sweeping floors is worth $35/hour because of the "skill and training" involved in doing it...even tho you could teach a 10 year old in 3 minutes how to use a broom...for 50 years, the pay WAS real, but the house of cards wasn't...now the house is gone...
Well, given how good GM is at overpaying workers and how bad they are at making a profit it's an honest mistake.
When the UAW workers went on strike nearly 4 years ago there were plenty of jobs. The Unemployment was under 5%. The Union mentality is such that they believed they were worth more than they were and are. They were replaced by other workers and most of the UAW members that decided working was better than strike pay and donuts. The UAW members did vote to kick that bunch of UAW leeches out.
You seem to think the Government should step in and help. The government has not stopped the stream of illegal workers willing to under cut the going wage in many fields. Skilled and non skilled.
Gary, that was your statement in regards to these employees at BEHR, not GM 4 years ago. I believe even you said you wouldn't vote for that contract. I don't think the government should help, I'm just pointing out that there are no jobs in this country for them to look for right now.
Now it will become interesting at Behr. Company offers contract. Take it or leave it. Workers vote overwhelmingly to leave it. So this is where the poker game begins. My guess is the company will implement the conditions in the final offer. If the workers go on strike the company has to make a decision. Either shut down. Open up the hiring office for non union people, or give into the Union. My bet is the AC units for GM start arriving from China shortly. It is also possible to call in arbitrators if that was a condition of the contract.
As for someone suggesting the 840 just go get other jobs..., the job climate in this area is very poor for those with medium skill levels. We have lots thousands of lost jobs with Delphi and GM. It's nice to say "just go get another job" but there ain't none. In your area of the country things may be much better, but we're in essentially a depression which Joe Biden would probably agree with.
>My bet is the AC units for GM start arriving from China shortly.
I get the feeling BEHR has other plants which can produce the same product.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm thinking however the current Ford contract changes come out will tell a lot about current UAW thinking (grasp of reality)? It will be interesting.
BTW - isn't the CAW up north even worse?