United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

Mr_Shiftright

you can relive those days! Read the Christmas Carol and try to remember that Scrooge WAS supposed to be the bad guy.

fintail

I remember I think when I was reading about the Nuremberg circus, that Baldur von Schirach claimed his views were influenced by Henry Ford. Maybe he was good in that the simple stubborn Model T enabled the US to progress rapidly, but by sometime in the 20s, I bet he was firmly off the rocker. One has to wonder if the UAW would have been born or evolved as it had without the actions of him and his supporters.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh, aside from being a great admirer of Hitler (the feeling was mutual) and being a rather vicious anti-semite, and destroying his own son and almost his entire company, I don't think he was so bad.

Let's say that a great man lost his moral compass.

berri

But this is mostly very old history. I think unions can serve an important impact for society because, let's face it, many of our business leaders are out for themselves and their wallets short term. But both sides need some constraints and laws that are balanced, otherwise the inequity on one side often harms society. If unions can selectively walk out of key plants, they are either no longer under contract, or breaching it. But there never seems to be any punitive actions. What do you think would happen if a company up and locked out workers at a selective plant while in national level negotiations? Unions enlisting other union support such as the UAW getting teamster drivers to not cross their picket lines is really the same collusive actions as car companies coordinating their labor and strike strategies with each other. But it doesn't seem to be enforced that way. My point, put both sides on a level playing field and let it work out. Now as for big business, if they want to inversion themselves to a different country, fine, but take away US government support when they run into problems then. Also, make them delist their stock from the NYSE or Nasdaq and relist as foreign ADR's instead if they want it traded here. Why is it so hard for the government to play even with both sides of an issue? Little of it is really rocket science.

iluvmysephia1

Oh, no doubt. Hitler admired Ford for what he was able to do - mass produce cars for the masses' affordability. The VW Bug is the German response ta Ford and his automobile monstronsity. Very true and very easy to absorb the reality of it.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if management in the 20s and 30s were somehow enlightened individuals, there never would have been unions. Ford assembly line work was brutal. You had a job, you got paid pretty well, but you were nothing more than a cog in a wheel, and easily discarded when you wore out. If you tried to organize for better conditions, you got your head cracked open, either by your foreman or by Ford's "security" forces.

Whatever benefits today's NON union autoworkers enjoy, they are enjoying on the backs of those who struggled years ago to set some humane and safe standards for this type of work.

stever

Divide and conquer? The UAW is trying to organize a few good skilled workers - 165 to be exact.

UAW Tries Again to Organize Workers at VW Plant in Tennessee (WSJ - may be a registration link)

gagrice

fintail said:

Or financial literacy, I mean simple things like interest rates and how to balance a checking account - wouldn't surprise me if nationally it is like 50%.

My Ex had a Masters in Special Education, and was incapable of balancing her checkbook. Taught school in CA for several years. She is now retired and my daughter takes care of her finances or she would be overdrawn on a regular basis.

fintail

Book smart and street stupid, which looking at much of the world might also be a graduate degree trait. I am not surprised, as so little of that is taught in the K-12 system.

That union pension probably keeps her running in the black, too

gagrice said:

My Ex had a Masters in Special Education, and was incapable of balancing her checkbook. Taught school in CA for several years. She is now retired and my daughter takes care of her finances or she would be overdrawn on a regular basis.

berri

Book smart and street stupid, which looking at much of the world might also be a graduate degree trait.

I can see an MBA messing up a simple problem. Too into matrix algebra and calculus

marsha7

Yeah, I must admit that many of the benefits enjoyed by non-union workers today is the result of what unions were able to accomplish years ago...health ins, 40 hour workweek, vacations, etc.

I suppose my problem is that the unions (which is why this topic exists) simply went overboard, demanding higher and higher wages for work that, for many, was quite unskilled and truly not worth much on an hourly basis...

Was it Forbes, maybe Wall St Journal (help me with the correct source) that determined that the average hourly UAW worker, just prior to bankruptcy, cost GM either $57 or $72 per hour in total compensation...for folks who
simply tighten lug nuts on wheels, that work is simply NOT worth anything close to that, not even half that amount...that is where the unions swung their pendulum too far, IMO...

iluvmysephia1

Was it Forbes, maybe Wall St Journal (help me with the correct source) that determined that the average hourly UAW worker, just prior to bankruptcy, cost GM either $57 or $72 per hour in total compensation...for folks who
simply tighten lug nuts on wheels, that work is simply NOT worth anything close to that, not even half that amount...that is where the unions swung their pendulum too far, IMO...

Ya hit the nail squarely on the head, marsha7. rockylee - are you out there and listening...or reading this thread?

Mr_Shiftright

Well the "brains" in corporate management agreed to it all, so....it takes two to tango as they say.

berri

No brains needed - they still held an oligopoly market position in profitable trucks, so they could just pass a lot of those expenses on to the consumer (until gas spiked high and the economy sunk big time).

I think you'll see this all over again because US management doesn't pay attention to history, except when frequently misapplying regression analysis, and never looks down the road further than a year or so

gagrice

marsha7 said:

Yeah, I must admit that many of the benefits enjoyed by non-union workers today is the result of what unions were able to accomplish years ago...health ins, 40 hour workweek, vacations, etc.

I suppose my problem is that the unions (which is why this topic exists) simply went overboard, demanding higher and higher wages for work that, for many, was quite unskilled and truly not worth much on an hourly basis...

Was it Forbes, maybe Wall St Journal (help me with the correct source) that determined that the average hourly UAW worker, just prior to bankruptcy, cost GM either $57 or $72 per hour in total compensation...for folks who
simply tighten lug nuts on wheels, that work is simply NOT worth anything close to that, not even half that amount...that is where the unions swung their pendulum too far, IMO...

In fairness to the workers, they were saddled with the ponzi scheme Pension plan of the UAW. Like I showed Rocky the other day our Teamster joint trades contract in San Diego has the employers paying $22 per hour into the pension trust to get it off the critical list. Most Teamsters make less than their their hourly benefit package. Health care is around $8 per hour. Vacation $2.xx

scwmcan

In fairness to the pension plans, if they were anything like the plans up here, the companies deferred payments into the plans, making it so they were underfunded, causing them to have to make large payments later ( and currently). This isn't to say that the plans had no fault in how they are managed, just that the companies were allowed ( by governments, unions, etc) to not pay the correct amount into the plans, causing shortfalls in the funding. There may still have been shortfalls in the plans themselves due to poor management. ( and up here at least Goverments raided some of the " surpluses" in some pension plans ( and employment insurance) during good times to help decrease deficits in government spending), causing shortfalls in the plans in harder times. Plenty of blame to go around.

gagrice

scwmcan said:

In fairness to the pension plans, if they were anything like the plans up here, the companies deferred payments into the plans, making it so they were underfunded, causing them to have to make large payments later ( and currently). This isn't to say that the plans had no fault in how they are managed, just that the companies were allowed ( by governments, unions, etc) to not pay the correct amount into the plans, causing shortfalls in the funding. There may still have been shortfalls in the plans themselves due to poor management. ( and up here at least Goverments raided some of the " surpluses" in some pension plans ( and employment insurance) during good times to help decrease deficits in government spending), causing shortfalls in the plans in harder times. Plenty of blame to go around.

The defined pension plans in the USA are governed by the PBGC agency by Federal law. Some of the worst off plans are those in the states and cities. If you are working for a state government and not close to retiring you should check this out. You may never see a retirement check.

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst//most-underfunded-pension-plans-states

scwmcan

And the reason these plans are under funded is due at least as much to the respective Goverments deferring payments into the plans, or raiding the plans for general funds, as anything to do with the unions ( not that they are blameless either). In any case I personally never expect a company pension, I just hope to be able to save and invest enough to be able to retire someday.

stever

My sister is living off her "PBGC" retirement. She also crossed a picket line back in the day. Maybe she should have walked the line.

Getting close to the midnight strike deadline.

stever

That was fast - didn't read the story but the headline should be enough.

GM, UAW Reach Tentative Deal, Avoid Strike (WSJ, registration link)

imidazol97

stever said:

GM, UAW Reach Tentative Deal, Avoid Strike (WSJ, registration link)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/gm-faces-midnight-deadline-for-new-deal-with-uaw-1445816475

This link from a google search for the lead words should work on the WSJ without the
extortion block after 27 words.

stever said:

That was fast -

Yup. I think they had 17 minutes to spare before midnight if I remember the radio
report I heard. I wonder how much was extorted out of GM for the benefit of the
already overpaid autoworkers.

gagrice

That was fast. Did not realize they were even at the table.

The new four-year deal is expected to largely mirror the one ratified by Fiat Chrysler Automobiles on Thursday in terms of basic wages. In that agreement all workers can eventually reach a top pay of $29 an hour in eight years or less, eliminating the hated two-tier wage system.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2015/10/25/uaw-and-general-motors-reach-agreement-avert-strike/74604950/

marsha7

scwmcan said:

In fairness to the pension plans, if they were anything like the plans up here, the companies deferred payments into the plans, making it so they were underfunded, causing them to have to make large payments later ( and currently). This isn't to say that the plans had no fault in how they are managed, just that the companies were allowed ( by governments, unions, etc) to not pay the correct amount into the plans, causing shortfalls in the funding. There may still have been shortfalls in the plans themselves due to poor management. ( and up here at least Goverments raided some of the " surpluses" in some pension plans ( and employment insurance) during good times to help decrease deficits in government spending), causing shortfalls in the plans in harder times. Plenty of blame to go around.

I seem to recall reading, years ago (sorry, no cite) that during the dotcom boom, companies who invested in those stocks for their pension plans were able to book the stock value prior to the crash...so, if Pets.com went public at a dollar a share, but shot up to $100 a share, the pension plans that had that stock were, to coin a phrase, "fully funded" because of all those (worthless-fraudulent) stocks flying high...once the crash hit (March, 2000) the plans continued to show the stock value at the high point, so the plans were STILL "fully funded"..this charade continued until, I believe, they were forced to mark the stock value down, which now meant that billions of $$$ of "value" were no longer in the pension plans, so they were underfunded...

I suppose that if this is true, if they only sold the stocks at their high point, REAL money would be in the plans, funding them, but once the funny money was gone, the water was drained from the swamp and now you knew where the alligators were...

gagrice

Marsha7 says:because of all those (worthless-fraudulent) stocks flying high...once the crash hit (March, 2000) the plans continued to show the stock value at the high point, so the plans were STILL "fully funded"..this charade continued until, I believe, they were forced to mark the stock value down, which now meant that billions of $$$ of "value" were no longer in the pension plans, so they were underfunded...

I believe PBGC requires an accounting every other year. So what you are saying would be very true. The biggest issue I see is projecting a given percentage of gain. Like the huge pension funds in CA and IL were based on making 8% ROI. That is a real crap shoot over the last decade. Only thing keeping some from total failure is the fairly robust stock market.

I know the Chicago teachers are fighting for more money, and will be lucky to get half of what is promised when they retire.

scwmcan

So fishy reporting practices due to poor oversight rules,sounds familiar and scary, and a problem allowed by both sides ( beneficial to the employers as they didn't have to put money in, and the unions were either fooled by the accounting practices or in on it and allowing their plans to be poorly funded, and government was also either fooled or in on it ( being an employer as well). The losers are the employees who were told they were getting a certain amount for their pension and planned accordingly and may not wind up with enough money to live on in their golden years.

berri

...or maybe the union leadership played around with some of those funds. Wasn't Jimmy Hoffa in deep doo-doo for that at the time of his disappearance?

gagrice

scwmcan said:

So fishy reporting practices due to poor oversight rules,sounds familiar and scary, and a problem allowed by both sides ( beneficial to the employers as they didn't have to put money in, and the unions were either fooled by the accounting practices or in on it and allowing their plans to be poorly funded, and government was also either fooled or in on it ( being an employer as well). The losers are the employees who were told they were getting a certain amount for their pension and planned accordingly and may not wind up with enough money to live on in their golden years.

No doubt about it. Think about the Delphi employees Obama screwed over in the GM bankruptcy. While he protected the UAW retirees. Hmmmm

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/04/14921926-delphi-retirees-say-obama-administration-betrayed-them

imidazol97

gagrice said:

No doubt about it. Think about the Delphi employees Obama screwed over in the GM bankruptcy. While he protected the UAW retirees. Hmmmm

Note, those were the highly paid _salaried_ Delphi workers, not the union members working at Delphi.

gagrice

Why was the UAW Delphi members suing GM for their retiree benefits then?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/05/15/gm-doesnt-owe-450-million-to-delphi-union-retirees.html

imidazol97

The first citation was about the reduction in retirement pay for salaried workers
at Delphi. A husband of a teacher with whom my wife taught is one of the
aggrieved Delphi salaried employees living in this area. A chap in Beavercreek
or Washington Twp was one of those leading the charge to get the govt to
pay their full retirement amounts.

Your second article is about healthcare fund payments. I don't believe that
involves the retirement pay. I don't know what the origin on the conflict there
was.

I do recall the IBEW and another union which were the people at the Moraine
Assembly worked very hard with boots on the ground as free campaign
donations to the party that won in 2008 and then in the agreement they
got screwed and the UAW for the big benefits from the government
payments. So much for appreciation after all the work they did to get
hope and change elected. LOL

tlong

It's funny because I believe Rocky once said that he didn't like the scams of the 401Ks and felt the pensions which were reliable were a better system. The reality is that they both have flaws and risks. Me, I'd rather manage my own 401K and at least know that creative accounting was not employed. Of course I still take the risk of the markets, but so do the pension plans anyway. Plus they have the risks of the companies' solvency, which IMHO is an even bigger risk.

stever

"Gov. Bill Haslam said Tuesday the "timing isn't great" for maintenance workers at Volkswagen's Chattanooga plant to pursue a new election on exclusive representation by the United Auto Workers given the German manufacturer's struggles with a world-wide diesel-emissions cheating scandal.

"Obviously, Volkswagen is struggling with a lot of issues right now," the Republican governor told reporters today. "It feels like to me the right time is for everybody to focus on addressing issues that VW has had and then turning around to producing great cars.

The National Right to Work Foundation said Tuesday that the UAW's call for an election at the plant is a "push to impose monopoly unionization on workers." In a statement, Mark Mix, the foundation's president, criticized the two weeks between the time UAW Local 42 requested an election and the planned vote."

Haslam: 'Timing isn't great' for UAW at VW Chattanooga (timesfreepress.com)

marsha7

tlong said:

It's funny because I believe Rocky once said that he didn't like the scams of the 401Ks and felt the pensions which were reliable were a better system. The reality is that they both have flaws and risks. Me, I'd rather manage my own 401K and at least know that creative accounting was not employed. Of course I still take the risk of the markets, but so do the pension plans anyway. Plus they have the risks of the companies' solvency, which IMHO is an even bigger risk.

That is the difference...you are willing to take responsibility for your future, whereas some folks think it is someone else's responsibility to plan their future...I, too, would want to direct my own 401K, IRA, or whatever...some folks are simply incapable of actually taking responsibility for themselves...

gagrice

stever said:

"Gov. Bill Haslam said Tuesday the "timing isn't great" for maintenance workers at Volkswagen's Chattanooga plant to pursue a new election on exclusive representation by the United Auto Workers given the German manufacturer's struggles with a world-wide diesel-emissions cheating scandal.

"Obviously, Volkswagen is struggling with a lot of issues right now," the Republican governor told reporters today. "It feels like to me the right time is for everybody to focus on addressing issues that VW has had and then turning around to producing great cars.

The National Right to Work Foundation said Tuesday that the UAW's call for an election at the plant is a "push to impose monopoly unionization on workers." In a statement, Mark Mix, the foundation's president, criticized the two weeks between the time UAW Local 42 requested an election and the planned vote."

Haslam: 'Timing isn't great' for UAW at VW Chattanooga (timesfreepress.com)

I doubt any time would be great for Haslam. I will say the UAW got more from FCA than I expected. That puts VW in a position of catching up. If the UAW does win a vote at VW, will they get the workers as good a deal as they got at Fiat?

robr2

gagrice said:

I doubt any time would be great for Haslam. I will say the UAW got more from FCA than I expected. That puts VW in a position of catching up. If the UAW does win a vote at VW, will they get the workers as good a deal as they got at Fiat?

Haslan would probably say "VW is doing so amazingly well that now would not be a good time for them to negotiate with the UAW as it would disrupt things."

With pattern bargaining, I would expect UAW to negotiate a similar package with VW.

berri

Some can probably beat a pension fund, but I think it is hard because you don't really have the size to allow as much diversification. Cost wise, individual trades are much cheaper than a decade ago, but still not as cheap as large operations like pension funds when rebalancing. The concern about a bankruptcy down the road is certainly legitimate, but most qualified pension funds are covered by the federal pension insurance program that assures the members get at least some of their pension in that case. If an individual screws up big time there is no outside party to help. One of the biggest issues for 401K type pensions I think is that many don't understand the power of inflation over time, so they go too heavy on safe investments from the gitgo, which comes back to haunt them when they start withdrawals years later.

marsha7

berri said:

Some can probably beat a pension fund, but I think it is hard because you don't really have the size to allow as much diversification. Cost wise, individual trades are much cheaper than a decade ago, but still not as cheap as large operations like pension funds when rebalancing. The concern about a bankruptcy down the road is certainly legitimate, but most qualified pension funds are covered by the federal pension insurance program that assures the members get at least some of their pension in that case. If an individual screws up big time there is no outside party to help. One of the biggest issues for 401K type pensions I think is that many don't understand the power of inflation over time, so they go too heavy on safe investments from the gitgo, which comes back to haunt them when they start withdrawals years later.

Valid point, well taken...but every time you hear of folks losing some or all of their pension, it does make me wonder if that individual ever sits back and thinks to themselves of what they might have done if they had controlled their own future...plus, since some many fund managers rarely beat the S&P 500 (Peter Lynch of Fidelity comes to mind way back when) you almost wonder if a simple low-cost index fund like Vanguard Index 500 (or whatever they call it) would work if you just let it grow over 40 years, even with all the ups and downs in the market over that same time.

berri

If I was a young guy Marsh, I'd divvy most of my retirement monies into low cost Indices. You bring up another good point about investing - management fees over time make a difference in returns. I think computerized and new quant techniques make it even harder to beat the market. If you want to go for it though, put a 10 - 20% portion onto hedge type areas like modified indices, contrarian bets, futures, etc. Personally, I'd keep that closer to 10% though.

gagrice

Around 1998 our company let the Union people join their 401k Plan. And matched us up to 6%. One of the mutual funds available in our plan was FLPSX. I put about 90% into that fund. When I retired I rolled it over into a Fidelity IRA. I did not do much but play the market with the 10%. My investment was more than doubled with FLPSX when the market crashed in 09. I left it in and rode it back to my original investment or below. Then it came back and I am higher than ever. Except I have had to take out money the last two years. I cashed out the end of 2012 thinking I knew something. Well this last dip I got back into FLPSX and will likely let it ride.

tlong

gagrice said:

stever said:

"Gov. Bill Haslam said Tuesday the "timing isn't great" for maintenance workers at Volkswagen's Chattanooga plant to pursue a new election on exclusive representation by the United Auto Workers given the German manufacturer's struggles with a world-wide diesel-emissions cheating scandal.

"Obviously, Volkswagen is struggling with a lot of issues right now," the Republican governor told reporters today. "It feels like to me the right time is for everybody to focus on addressing issues that VW has had and then turning around to producing great cars.

The National Right to Work Foundation said Tuesday that the UAW's call for an election at the plant is a "push to impose monopoly unionization on workers." In a statement, Mark Mix, the foundation's president, criticized the two weeks between the time UAW Local 42 requested an election and the planned vote."

Haslam: 'Timing isn't great' for UAW at VW Chattanooga (timesfreepress.com)

I doubt any time would be great for Haslam. I will say the UAW got more from FCA than I expected. That puts VW in a position of catching up. If the UAW does win a vote at VW, will they get the workers as good a deal as they got at Fiat?

They would probably get a great deal just as VW announced the closing of the plant due to the dropping sales due to their brilliant cheating scandal. And it would serve everybody right. VW can go home as far as I'm concerned - and I used to be a huge VW fan.

tlong

berri said:

Some can probably beat a pension fund, but I think it is hard because you don't really have the size to allow as much diversification. Cost wise, individual trades are much cheaper than a decade ago, but still not as cheap as large operations like pension funds when rebalancing. The concern about a bankruptcy down the road is certainly legitimate, but most qualified pension funds are covered by the federal pension insurance program that assures the members get at least some of their pension in that case. If an individual screws up big time there is no outside party to help. One of the biggest issues for 401K type pensions I think is that many don't understand the power of inflation over time, so they go too heavy on safe investments from the gitgo, which comes back to haunt them when they start withdrawals years later.

In other words, if you don't understand what you are doing you are probably better with a pension. If you do understand what you are doing, probably better on your own.

berri

I'd say "could be" because the big funds have a lot of economies of scale along with a more inside knowledge of the industry

tlong

berri said:

I'd say "could be" because the big funds have a lot of economies of scale along with a more inside knowledge of the industry

From what I've seen of companies going BK, turning pension funds over to the PBGC and most of a pension wiped out (look at airline employees as an example), plus the chronic underfunding by companies and governments - I think a lot of pensions are a bigger Ponzi scheme than Bernie Madoff (nearly). I'd rather use low cost index funds like from Vanguard and they have pretty huge economies of scale, too.

berri

If you are comfortable understanding stock classes, types of bonds and behavior, REIT's and the like, you should go ahead and do that. It lets you tailor to exactly how you want your holdings each year. Big airline pensioners weren't wiped out by BK, but had them cut to the PBGC ceilings when applicable. Current employees that added additional funds to those plans got hurt worse though. Of course, Congress could do away with PBGC at any time. Those covered would probably be grandfathered, but employees still working would be screwed if their pension plans crapped out subsequently.

tlong

berri said:

If you are comfortable understanding stock classes, types of bonds and behavior, REIT's and the like, you should go ahead and do that. It lets you tailor to exactly how you want your holdings each year. Big airline pensioners weren't wiped out by BK, but had them cut to the PBGC ceilings when applicable. Current employees that added additional funds to those plans got hurt worse though. Of course, Congress could do away with PBGC at any time. Those covered would probably be grandfathered, but employees still working would be screwed if their pension plans crapped out subsequently.

Yes, but some airline employees like pilots worked say, 30 years and then suddenly their pension is a small fraction of what they were expecting - effectively ruining their retirement plans late in the game. That may not be "fully wiped out" but it is a pretty darn bad situation. Of course our entire economy could implode and then nobody is ok. But if you were sensibly managing a 401K you would not have had the problems that those pensioners had.

berri

I believe you'll find most captains ended up with a combined social security and PBG somewhere around $40K which is much lower than anticipated, but not the poor house either.

stever

UAW-Ford Reach Tentative Labor Agreement (WSJ)

This has all has seemed too easy...but the GM vote won't be known until tomorrow.

gagrice

stever said:

UAW-Ford Reach Tentative Labor Agreement (WSJ)

This has all has seemed too easy...but the GM vote won't be known until tomorrow.

Seemed rather painless to me as well. I would say the workers at VW Chattanooga would be wise to jump on that $29 per hour bandwagon. Go for the VW throat while they are weak and predisposed with dieselgate.

iluvmysephia1

Seemed rather painless to me as well. I would say the workers at VW Chattanooga would be wise to jump on that $29 per hour bandwagon. Go for the VW throat while they are weak and predisposed with dieselgate.

Especially if the metal shaving pushers can score that $29/hr., too, eh?

stever

"The UAW late Friday released final voting results for the tentative GM pact that would cover 52,600 workers. The union said 58.3 percent of GM production workers voted for it, while 59.5 percent of skilled trades workers voted against it. Overall, 55.4 percent of GM hourly workers supported the deal.

But GM’s contract has not been ratified. The UAW said in a statement Friday that it will hold meetings with skilled trades members at each plant to determine “what reason(s) they had for rejection of the tentative agreement."

UAW, Ford reach deal; GM hits snag (Detroit News)

stever

Starting to get more interesting.

"The United Auto Workers’ effort to ratify a new labor deal with Ford Motor Co. suffered a significant blow with two major factories in Kentucky rejecting the agreement by a roughly two-thirds majority.

While voting isn’t set to conclude until Friday, the two factories have a total of 9,400 Ford workers, enough to cast doubt over whether UAW leaders will be able to win adequate membership support to ratify this latest contract."

Workers at Two Major Ford Factories Reject Labor Pact (WSJ - may be a registration link)