Acura TL 2009

rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
edited December 2013 in Acura
So the big rumor is SH-AWD as has been rumored for the last few years. Any more info or rumors on this new redesign automobile ? I expect major upgrades in Gadgetology, Quality, Performance, Power, but would love to know more details as I was a former 2005' owner and am very interested on how much this car will improve. I hope it isn't another G35 story where their were marginal improvements. I'd like to see the bar raised far enough to knock BMW's 335i of it's feet !!! ;)

Rocky
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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Problem is it will still likely be FWD based :( Also the AWD will likely also only come in AT like the G35x :(

    -mike
    Motorsports and Tuning Host
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    A dime and a donut says it's SH-AWD or at the very least, an available option.
    I expect the same engine, maybe just a little retuning.

    I also suspect that if it is SH-AWD, an Auto will be the only choice.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    scottm123 & paisan, if you both are correct this car probably will be a failure. It needs to be a "shocker" like the 2004' if it wants to earn some credibility. The 2009' Acura TL, needs to have Twin-Turbo power and SH-AWD with a 6-Speed option if it wants to steal sales in the ELPPS segment. ;)

    Rocky
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Many owners and even I'm starting to believe that with acura(honda's ) engine expertise, with a great balance of sport and comfort, the TL could be the ultimate car if it was RWD.

    Sh-awd is ok but it weighs alot! Also acura needs a 6-8speed automatic for better fuel economy.

    If it had the same base engine but tuned to get 260hp, and 250lb ft of torque, it could get the 3.7l v6 tuned to 310hp and 280lb ft of torque. It would be a great car! I just hope it gets RWD or Sh-awd or Both since the TL has 61% of its weigh on the front tires. I guess a Limited slip would fix the torque steer.

    -Cj :)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The problem with tuning out a V6 is that no matter what you do, you'll still have a ver /\ pointy torque curve as opposed to a blocky one found on a V8. So combine that with the SH-AWD sucking down weight and driveline drag and you'll have an anemic car. With that said I'd love to see a RWD V6 version of the TL or TSX but I'm afraid that HA is still stuck on FWD based cars for the long haul.

    -mike
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    Agreed, but one word I never used in my post is "failure"
    The TL is what it is, and Acura does what's needed to keep that flame alive.
    It has a massive following and people buy them regardless of the shortcomings, or what could have made them better.
    It's an awesome car and for the money, an awesome value.
    (And this is coming from a guy who just bought a G35)

    I so wanted to like the 07 TL Type-S but for me, it just fell short.
    Adding SH-AWD to the existing TL Type-S, I most likely would have bought it.

    Yeah, folding rear seats are nice, but no deciding factor for me.
    If Acura wants my advice, stick with a solid and tested engine but get it over the 300 hp mark, add SH-AWD and a 6-speed manual, and DO NOT make the car smaller.
    Stick with what makes the TL such a nice car, and just make it better.

    Oh, and Acura, enough of the plastic wood, huh? :mad:
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    SH-AWD and a 6-speed manual

    I don't think they have an application of the SH-AWD + manual, there are very few MT systems out there with AWD, Audi and Subaru being the only ones I know of.

    -mike
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    I know, I know...
    I had that post all written up and previewed it, and thought... hey, since this is a wish list for the 09 TL, why not go all the way, and so, I added the 6-Speed.

    Just a wish list and most likely, very far from reality.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Agree. They really need to push the envelope with the 09' TL. We all know it will be built on the FWD 08' Honda Accord, so SH-AWD will be the only solution. My opinion is they should put the 3.2 back in and Twin-Turbo it with those turbo's from the RDX. The 3.2 V6 is still a great engine. I assume a 3.7 is a bored and stroked bigger version of the 3.5 V6 ?

    I do think Acura, needs to hit the hp. mark because it gives up the advantages of RWD with FWD/SH-AWD. To make it most cost effective they should make SH-AWD standard as it would cut production costs for the SH-AWD making it more ecoomically viable and it is indeed a great system as I've felt it's use in a 05' RL, when I baught my 05' TL

    I also agree the six-speed needs to return. what the hell were they thinking by making that a Type-S only feature ????

    I also agree the cheap looking fake wood was a big deal. That is why I baught the ebony interior in my 2005' that had the much better looking faux carbon fiber trim. I have pics of my former Acura TL on my carspace page here:

    http://www.carspace.com/rockylee/Albums/2005%20Acura%20TL/

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I just hope they don't ruin the TL's sleek styling. We will see good or bad probably this next Detroit Autoshow. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    And your pic brings me to another thought.
    What the heck is that thing hanging from your steering column???
    I love the G's Intelligent Key.
    Enough with integrating the key into a 2lb fob... make the thing keyless.

    As for the Twin-Turbo... One thing I loved about the TL is the economy. For a Sports Sedan with that power, it did awesome on the highway.. I had it up to 36 mpg.
    Taking the guts from the RDX will destroy the economy of this car, especially on the SH-AWD platform.

    They'll need to find a balance and I'm not sure if the Turbo fits the bill.
    Acura has tried the turbo in the RDX, but it has failed to impress me.
    I know it's a 4, but the thing does not offer what others call acceleration excitement. It suffers from turbo lag.
    Let them continue to use the RDX and maybe even the TSX for their turbo experiments.
    Until it's perfected, keep it very far away from the TL.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Yes my fuel economy in my TL, would get 36-37 mpg on a flat road. I got 37 mpg with the wind against my back. The car was flat-out awesome. I liked the idea of turbo-charging because it would not eat the fuel economy #s like a bigger engine. I say take the 3.2 and Twin-Turbo it. I'm okay with turbo-lag if it returns the power. I have not driven the RDX, but the lil' 4-banger does do pretty good with all that weight. What other solution is their to push the hp. performance numbers where they need to be with SH-AWD ? The TL, needs to best the new CTS, 335i, G35, it it wants to gain any market-share. It also needs to keep those fuel economy numbers up as those are expected from a honda. If the 2009' Acura TL, becomes great like my former 2005 was.... I might be able to put my bad experience behind me with Honda, and risk buying or leasing a SH-AWD TL. That however will depend on a lot variables and I don't believe they will follow through but I sure hpe they do. ;)

    Rocky
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    If Acura wants the TL to do well in the performance segment, they need to keep the Type-S, but give it more than 20 HP and an ugly set of wheels.

    The TL sells in staggering numbers, but most of what I see on the road are driven by professional, middle-aged people, and older.

    Keep the base TL where it is, with a new body style and tech updates.
    That will sell to the current peeps who love what they already have and are ready for something new.

    Put the cash into the Type-S and let it compete with those mentioned above.
    The 08 CTS-V is gonna be crazy fast, but I personally think Cady builds crap and would never buy one.
    The TL needs to go where BMW and Infiniti have not yet gone, all while keeping the dependability that Honda/Acura buyers expect and demand.

    Engineers have their hands full, that's for sure.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    The CTS-V for 09' is on my short-list. "Well if you wanna call a dozen models a short-list ?" :blush: I also think Cadillac's new launches are as quality and well built as Honyota's now days. However I agree the TL, should have a Type-S version also but I'd be impressed if they would keep the Alpha inspired design with clean looks and pour in the power. The bottom line is if they screw up this car it will be hard road for Acura's brand. The RL, is a nice car but it needs a few more technology's and a V8 or V10 if it wants run with the big dogs. What's I'd like to see is a 2009' SH-AWD Acura TL with a 6-speed manual, 350 hp via Twin-Turbo hybrid. Now that would be the ultimate green performance car. ;)

    Rocky
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    I'd like to see is a 2009' SH-AWD Acura TL with a 6-speed manual, 350 hp via Twin-Turbo hybrid.

    Holy Crap! LOL.... I'm in :D
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I find it hard to compare the TL to a G35 or CTS or BMW for the simple fact that it's FWD. I love the looks of the TL but can't get past the FWD low torque engines that HA puts out. To me it's just a loaded up Accord whereas the G35, CTS and BMW have no "base" lowend equivalent. They've differentiated them enough to not be a "fancy" XYZ base car.

    -mike
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    The Acura TL, will handle better than most of your RWD performance cars. It' will smoke a G35 in the corners. Go check out the GM on the offense forum to see the numbers
    x-runner put up from past edmunds.com tests. ;)

    Rocky
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Percieved performance is what we are talking about here. By the way I don't put any weight in "test" done by magazines or any online sources. In the real world performance the RWD cars will have a significant advantage in terms of being better balanced etc.

    Back to the percieved performance, take a look at "luxury performance cars" on the market, BMWs, MB, Caddy, Infiniti, they all have RWD based chassis, this chassis gives it a nice sleek hood line and the front wheels can be pushed forward to the corners, which you can't do on a FWD based car.

    Imagine though the current TL body with the same engine it has now but RWD, how much of a grand touring and classy automobile would that be?

    -mike
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    I'd also be careful with the TL vs G35 thoughts.
    A G35S equipped with 4WAS is not getting smoked by a TL in the corners, today, or any other day.
    And regardless of what the mags tell you, I have driven both, so I have my own opinion.

    Yes, I know about the Willow Springs thing.
    It's the best thing to happen to TL lovers.
    Why, however, did they put the Acura Sport model TL-Type-S up against the Infiniti base (Non-Sport) G35?
    Put it up against the 07 G35S with 4WAS and this has a whole new ending.
    The TL does not have the G's feel of the road.
    Now, don't get me wrong... the TL is a blast to drive and handles very well, especially for a FWD car.

    The G is right on the BMW's coat tails when it comes to feel and handling.
    That's something that cannot be said of the TL... yet.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I agree with Scott (also having driven both) and I have zero stake in either the TL or the G35 as I don't own nor plan to own either.

    -mike
  • ebbyebby Member Posts: 23
    I am skeptical if a SH-AWD on the 09 TL would dramatically transform it to a rear-drive performance sedan like the 3 series or the Infinity G. Acura still biases SH-AWD as default FWD (as in my current 07 Acura MDX), which only sends substaintial but limited power to the rear when front wheel slippage occurs.

    I still believe there is a fundamental difference between a RWD car and an AWD cars with a FWD bias. I also understand that AWD sedans handle marginally less than RWD versions, although they perform better in snow and foul weather.

    That said, the current TL is probably one of the best FWD best handling sedans on earth.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    AWD vs RWD isn't always as one-sided as it seems! Remember back when the Audi RS4 beat out the M5(manual) in a comparison. I find it funny that the A4 can beat a 5 bust cant match the 3...

    Regardless, i hope to see a TL diesel. Imagine if the TL had a 3.5l Diesel engine with 230hp and 350lb ft of torque and 45mpg highway? AHHH the possibilities. This engine could see use in the RL, MDX, Pilot, Ridgeline, and odyssey...

    I know honda could do it! If Mercedes can drag 400lb ft of torque out of a 3.2l engine, 350lb ft isn't asking for much. Especially since the TL has a lower weight, and better aerodynamics... BTW, bmw does have a 335D...

    Now in realistic terms, honda/acura should be working on a bigger automatic. I prefer a 7speed but a 6 will be ok. Cruising at 70MPH with the tac above 2.8krpm isn't a good thing mpg wise... This tranny would be great in that diesel i mentioned...

    -Cj
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    ebby, I can look at the RL's track numbers with it's very limited power and porky weight as reference. I think a SH-AWD TL will pull .91+g's on the skidpad and improve that willow springs average to 69+ mph if it gets enough power ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Regardless, i hope to see a TL diesel. Imagine if the TL had a 3.5l Diesel engine with 230hp and 350lb ft of torque and 45mpg highway?

    Now that could be something :)

    Rocky
  • vroom5vroom5 Member Posts: 8
    As a Honda shareholder, an 04 MDX and 07 TLS owner, I'd like to see the 09 TL with the following:
    -cleaner more efficient engine (hybrid/biodiesel). Global warming is only going to become a bigger issue in the years ahead.
    -AWD with a rear wheel bias, wheels pushed to corners
    -manual option
    -more gears (6 or 7)
    -current power of TLS is sufficient
    -no weight gain over 07 TL
    -folding rear seat
    -hatchback version
    -improve visibility (reduce the blind spots)
    -rain sensitive wipers
    -keyless
    -upgraded interior (real wood, less plastic, denser carpeting)
    -true IPOD integration into the NAV system
    -everything standard for one price with an ability to customize via a selection of 3 or 4 different wheel options at the dealership (shouldn't drive up costs much)
    -+ all the current technology of the 07 TLS
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    The TL, needs to upgrade the ELS 5.1 to at least RDX's 410 watt levels as well and needs ventilated seats. ;)

    Rocky
  • ebbyebby Member Posts: 23
    I don't doubt a SH-AWD TL could pull 0.91g. Even the current TL posted similar G and slalom numbers as the old Infinity G. The reference to Audi is also interesting...the legendary quattro in Audi AWD sedans is excellent on the skidpad partly because of a more even weight distribution. One of the "voodoos" of BMW chassis dynamics is even weight distribution. It gives the car a tossable feel with so much athleticsm. I had an 06 Infinity M35 - recently sold to purchase the MDX, with a near 50/50 weight ratio, it was magic in the bends with exceptional handling.

    This is an area I think Acura needs to address: nose heaviness: so much weight on the front wheels. I guess a SH-AWD TL with a better weigth distribution would be interesting.
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    You lost me at Hatchback option
    Wanna hatchback, buy a Gremlin
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Also let's not forget that most if not all tests done by magazines/sites/etc are done with "stock" rubber. So for instance one car may come with crappy tires from the factory whereas another may come with some better rubber, thereby pulling a better g rating than the one with worse tires. Same goes for the handling tests etc.

    First thing I do on my cars is wear out those stock tires and put on some GOOD tires. Then again my summers are all R-compounds or near-R compound tires no matter which car I'm driving.

    -mike
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    This is an area I think Acura needs to address: nose heaviness: so much weight on the front wheels.

    I agree!! Dont get me wrong but I think the TL is a great performing car with 61% of its weight on its front wheels. In fact, the TSX also has 61% on the front. Only the Sh-awd vehicles are different. The RL has 58% in the front so thats still no good.

    If honda moved this weight rearward more, i think the current TL would perform better! A Fullsize spare, battery in the trunk, More rear seat padding(more weight and better comfort ;) ),Transverse engine, ect!

    Switching to Sh-awd adds weight. Every vehicle with it weighs over 4klbs.

    Would anyone be interested in the TL if it had passive 4WS? That allows better turning ratio, better control at high speeds and even shorter braking distances. this link has more facts about 4 wheel steering (4ws)

    -Cj :)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    autoboy16,

    Of course pal, 4WS would be a very awesome feature but only the Infinit G37, M45, and I heard some Saab's use this system today. I guess Acura, could borrow some technology from Mitsubishi's (S-AWC) AWD system and apply it to the SH-AWD ????? I do think 4WS would make a Acura TL, very unique. I don't see this happening even though I agree it's a nice wish list. ;)

    Rocky
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Honda had 4ws on the old (pre 1997) preludes. Also gm has quadrasteer. Saab 9-3s use 4ws also.

    Imagine a TL with a 30ft turning circle, and slalom better than a 335i or g35/g37. Honda tried it but it wasn't a popular option on the preludes. I'd imagine it would do wonders for them now. Check the Prelude's generation article.

    -Cj
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Mazda also had 4ws.
    Quadrasteer is gone now :(

    I think in the past the the problem was the reliability of the systems. With today's technology it's a good bet, problem is that when things like that break it's $$$ to fix em.

    -mike
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    My friend had one of those Preludes... and it handled very well.
    Honda/Acura has this technology, and I'm sure with advancements, they could make it better than it was back then.
    The TL would be an awesome candidate for such technology.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Yep, I have not read any negative news on Infinti's system. It must be a great system if they are going tp put it on the high powered Skyline. ;)

    I do think the technology is there and it should be used.

    I remember loving the Dodge Stealth, because it had this technology. The knock-off show of Smokey and the Bandit, with Brian Blaine? had a Dodge Stealth, and they zoomed in on the 4WS as he ran circles around the cops and bad
    guys.-grin :blush:

    Rocky
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    My mom has a green stealth but its just the base version... :cry:

    Anywho, 4WS shouldn't be that hard to do as GM as it currently on saabs. Not to mention that if acura/honda wants to be a perdominatly FWD company, 4WS gives them a nice jump in the competition.

    Road and track had a comparison of a TL-s, g35s, and is350. Read the TL's results!! It great for a FWD car! Imagine what 4WS could do... Honda has the tec, they just have to apply it. A 6-7 speed auto would be great too!

    -Cj
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Somebody has to know something about the 2009' Acura TL, by now. Any spy pics on the net any where ?

    -Rocky
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    all these numbers of what the tl can do have little to do with what it COULD do, given that honda either apply 4ws or a rear biased sh-awd for the next generation.

    I would still like to see a full on rwd, but like a civic hatchback in america, doubt it will come. I'd be content with sh-awd, even if it is front biased, as long as the car has the power to back it up, and a serious set of tires.
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    Nothing yet.
    Keep an eye on http://www.autospies.com
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Heard Dat !!!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    scottm123,

    I will have to keep a close eye on that site.....I've visited it in the past and would have thought by now somebody would of gotten a good pic of one. :cry:

    -Rocky
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    I was talking to some of the guys over at my Acura dealer while they were servicing the MDX.

    They said that Acura has the new TL very tight under wraps and only a select few even have details as to where it's being developed.
    I was also told that they have secure airspace... although I have a hard time believing half the stuff these guys tell me.

    I'd imagine that if the TL gets half the updates we're dreaming of, they'll need to do a real hard look at the RL as well.... or it's pathetic sales will only get worse.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    The RL, needs definetly go RWD before it's to late. It's a nice car but boy it's image is hurting. They better drop the V10 VTEC in it and hope that cures all it's ills. ;)

    -Rocky
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    now that just overdoes it! A v10 RL?

    Shave off 500lbs from the RL, drop the price to 42k, an optional v8 (or w8. GM has a w8 in the works by combining the new 3.6l engine), and a refreshed looks and you have a great RL!

    The new 3.7lv6, sh-awd, and a couple of other things would be great for the RL also! This new engine made the MDX a serious sports SUV!!

    -Cj
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    A V6 in a RL, will not cut it and the 3.7 only has 10 more horses thus without a turbo or supercharger it's really worthless to stick with a V6. The RL, is getting left in the dust because it has a major power problem that's not even competitive and it could use a better interior/exterior design as well along with a few nifty new gadgets. It's fallen behinf in that department as well. The biggest problem for the RL, will be the Hyundai, Genesis. But enough about the RL.

    The Acura TL, needs at least 330 or more horses if they want the SH-AWD to be competitive. Acura, should add the cylinder shut-off option on the TL to help fuel economy in OD/6th gear. The bottom line (Option-A) is I'd rather them keep the 3.2 V6 add cylinder cut-off technology and then add a couple of Twin Turbo's to get the power up their. Option (B) would be to use their hybrid motor on the 3.2 to help power the TL, which would add performance and fuel economy like Lexus, does with it's Synergy System. Either one of those idea's are good one for the the future of the TL, which gives it class leading power and efficiency as this corrupt government implements CAFE standards. :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    That hybrid idea seems to be what honda did to the accord...

    I think that the hybrid system would add to much weight. Then it would reduce the ride quality of the TL. IMO until honda does a 2mode hybrid like GM or Toyota, then it shouldn't be used.

    Maybe if honda uses the twin turbos for the next type-s? The regular 3.2lv6 could probably be tweaked to 260(only 2hp) A turbo should take it to 300 and twin should take it to 330hp. But 330hp in a front driver is sort of scary but I admit it will put sh-awd to real use.

    If honda makes a v6-v8 diesel engine for its SUVs, maybe honda could drop it off in the TL and RL too. Mercedes E320bluetec gets 700miles per tank and 236hp. Its sport comes from its 400lb ft of torque. If honda/acura made a 3.5-4l diesel and it had 245hp and 450lb ft of torque, the all will be right with the world.

    Lastly, i'm still stuck on the fence of a RWD TL. RWD adds weight to the rear but it also adds weight. The current TL-s already pulls .91Gs on the skid pad which is better than than the RWD IS350 and G35(7).

    But also we have to consider that the A4 is AWD and beat out an m5. Whos to say that acura's will be boring to drive with Sh-awd and stronger engines? For now, honda should just market VTM-4 in the TSX and TL until the next generation begins.

    -Cj
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    autoboy16, love to see any of your proposals make it to market. :)

    -Rocky
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181

    Lastly, i'm still stuck on the fence of a RWD TL. RWD adds weight to the rear but it also adds weight. The current TL-s already pulls .91Gs on the skid pad which is better than than the RWD IS350 and G35(7).


    I've asked before, and I'll ask again, what are the tires on these vehicles during the tests? Stock? Aftermarket? How many times did they check the pressures and re-test? The "skidpad" test is only as good as the tires, pressures and repeatability.

    -mike
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Percieved performance is what we are talking about here. By the way I don't put any weight in "test" done by magazines or any online sources. In the real world performance the RWD cars will have a significant advantage in terms of being better balanced etc.

    I guess that the place to put weight is what some anonymous internet poster says about which cars "perform" best.

    What is difference in "perceived performance" and actual measured performance with test data such as lap times, slalom, skid pad? Which is better for determining which car has better "Capabilities" - perception or actual test data?

    If at race track (horse) practice would you just watch your horse (an owner) doing a lap and say it was the fastest or might you want to know its lap time compared to other horses' times? After all, your perception might be that your horse is the fastest. But, is it?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I guess that the place to put weight is what some anonymous internet poster says about which cars "perform" best.

    Well, we aren't talking about a race car owner, in which case there is significant testing, recording and every minute fact is recorded (as a race car team owner, on an amature level, even I do this). However the weight I put on a performance driving machine for an individual is to get out there and really test drive what you want to buy. I'm not talking about a 5 min 45mph test drive. Rent/borrow/steal the car you want, make sure it has the tires you like and take it for a good run, a weekend if possible. Only then will you get a true feeling of if this car is for you.

    I've seen the tests that the automotive press does on cars and I'm not impressed in the slightest with the results, not necessarily due to their own doing, however a handling test is very effected by the tires, pressures and temps and if they just take whatever is doled out to them for the test-ride, then you as the consumer will get a skewed result. Take for example a car such as the Subaru STi or the Legacy SpecB. Both of these vehicles come with 18" rims and super grippy summer tires. Their conventional counterparts the WRX and Legacy GT come with Bridgeston RE92s which are all season sub-par at best tires in terms of performance. One might be "tricked" into believing that the handling of the cars fitted from the factory with the summer performance tires out perform the standard ones by a lot more than they actually do.

    So what I'm saying is take everything with a grain of salt, don't base everything on a writeup in a magazine or a skidpad number. Look at the total package and get out there and test it yourself!

    -mike
    Motorsports and Tuning Host
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