Overheating(what's the problem?)
My Firebird "shut itself off" a couple of days
ago. I was about 5 minutes from home when the
check gages indicator came on. I tried to get home
but as I was turning the corner the car just shut
itself down. I noticed that about the same time
the gages light came on my heater started blowing
cold air out( it was on the hottest setting!). The
coolant level was fine, could it be the
thermostat? Anyone have any ideas? Help! -J
ago. I was about 5 minutes from home when the
check gages indicator came on. I tried to get home
but as I was turning the corner the car just shut
itself down. I noticed that about the same time
the gages light came on my heater started blowing
cold air out( it was on the hottest setting!). The
coolant level was fine, could it be the
thermostat? Anyone have any ideas? Help! -J
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Comments
If it was a vacuum loss, the power steering would have stopped, not just the heat - that's vacuum-assisted as well. Jerry would have noticed he went to manual steering along with everything else. His original complaint was overheating and an automatic engine shutdown, not simply his heater cutting out.
Thank you both. The power steering DID in fact go out. I didn't mention it because I though the switch to manual steering was a product of the car shutting itself off. I had no idea it could be related to the vacuum. And also, the car never smoked or anything, I just noticed the temp gauge went into the red and the check gauges light came on. I assumed it shut down before overheating. The coolant level was checked in the radiator and the overflow. Matter of fact, I loosened the cap on the radiator to listen for water and sure enough the coolant slushed around violenty.( NOTICE: DO NOT EVER REMOVE THE CAP WHILE THE ENGINE IS HOT), I swear the coolant would've shot twenty feet into the air. With this info, is it definitly the vac? How do I go about fixing it? I will be trading this car in for a v8 soon and hope it's not too expensive!
Since your steering did die, then I do concur with gcher that you probably have a vac leak somewhere. A competent mechanic should be able to do a vacuum test and find it pretty easily. (Good call, gcher!)
If it's just a hose as gcher surmised, the job is somewhat similar to fixing a radiator hose. If they can't find a specific leak, then they will test the engine's ability to produce vacuum.
from Jerry's symptoms, it sounds as if he may have lost water pump pressure and in the "struggle" took out the vacuum hose to the HVAC as gcher mentioned (since the coolant was not flowing properly through the system). He did say he lost everything when the Check Gauges light came on, and he tried to make it home - before he made it, the engine went to the failsafe shutdown.
Without examining the Firebird, of course, we are all making educated guesses based on experience, but it sounds like a combination of some type of coolant flow failure and a possible resulting vac leak.
Check gauges light came on, at about the same time cold air started blowing out of the vents( it was on hot)
I tried to make it home (about five minutes away)
About 1 minute from home while turning the corner the car shut down. AFTER the car shut down, I lost power steering.
I sat for about five minutes to see if it would cool down. The gauge never moved so I popped the hood, there was no smoke or burning smell. I loosened the cap on the radiator and the coolant went crazy(don't know what that means). Called my wife and asked her to bring me some coolant.
Wife brought the coolant, I put it in the overflow tank.
Waited about ten more minutes started the car and drove 1 minute home.
I hope that clarifies everything. I appreciate you guys helping me out. -j
ok, that's a little different. Your power steering stopped because the engine wasn't running - I thought you lost it while driving.
Somewhere between the water pump and the HVAC, you lost coolant flow. It's either a failure (vacuum or otherwise) in the HVAC area, or there is some kind of blockage in a coolant line.
Did you happen to hear an unusual "clunk" or "hiss" just before the warning light came on and the cold air started? When you restarted and got home, did you happen to listen under the hood with the engine running when you got home? If you haven't yet, give it a shot and see if you hear a hiss or whistle that would be indicative of an air/vacuum leak.
But...but...radiator cap wouldn't pop-off on a modern system...it should go into the overflow, shouldn't it?
Your mech is right - burning coolant smells awful - you'd know it in a second...
Glad to hear it wasn't as bad as it could have been.
This odor (burner ethylene glycol) is similar to that of burned polyethylene. Try burning a little of the insulation from a piece of automotive wiring to familiarize yourself with the odor.
Get the suspect car up to full operating temperature and then park it in a closed garage. Wait 2 or 3 minutes and check for the odor. If the odor is present, assuming there are no hot electrical components or polymer on the hot exhaust system components, it's probably time to pull the cylinder head.
In order to have adequate "odor sensitivity", it's probably best if one person warms up the car and another second person makes the "odor check."
Has anyone else used this criteria? Your comments?
Sorry that post #23 was incomplete.
However, a few weeks ago I noticed that I was low on coolant and added some. I've been checking every day since then and I need to add coolant practically daily. I do not see any leaks nor is there ever any coolant on the ground under the vehicle. The car runs cool enough when I am moving but when I stop (at a traffic light, for example) the temperature starts to climb. Once I get moving again the needle moves back to an acceptable temperature range. When I arrive at my
destination and exit the vehicle I can smell a strong odor of coolant from the engine compartment. The hoses and radiator cap are extremely hot and there is a lot of pressure built up.
I've tried numerous things to correct the situation such as:
1) replacing the radiator cap with a 'pressure- release' cap...whenever I park the car and release the pressure by lifting up the little
handle on the cap, coolant flows in to the overflow bottle and it is actually boiling hot.
2) flushed the entire system, and added fresh coolant/water mix.
3) replaced the thermostat.
4) verified the fan and water pump are functioning.
I'm stumped and was wondering what could possibly cause the vehicle to run so hot while losing coolant daily? And why am I not seeing any
coolant on the driveway?? Could the coolant be evaporating due to the intense heat? Would a cooler thermostat help? Could there be something
wrong with the radiator? Any advice would be appreciated!
Thanks!
As to the loss of coolant, the head gasket on the 2.5 liter Chrysler engine is somewhat prone to failure. The failure is usually at the end of the head and coolant leaks into either #1 or #4 cylinder. The leakage rate could be little enough that driveability is OK but coolant is disappearing.
I would first concentrate on the fan-related items. Hopefully, the disappearing coolant is a hose leak ...and you don't see it because the high temperature evaporates it before it drips on the pavement. Hopefully, after the high temp problem is resolved, you will find just such a leak rather than having to remove the cylinder head.
A cooler thermostat won't help. I would change the thermostat (using the reccommended temp setting) only if the problems started shortly after installation of the present thermostat.
Low/no coolant. No or intermittent heat from heater.
Coolant, but...
temperature climbs going down the road -- poor circulation through radiator -- (1) clogged radiator (2) water pump/belt problem (3) collapsing suction side radiator hose -- very rare.
temperature climbs while stopped on idle -- normal until fans kick in. If it still climbs -- (1) bad thermostat (2) clogged radiator -- inside or out (3) water pump/belt problem.
Hot engine, coolant overflowing and blowing -- (1) bad thermostat (2) slipping water pump belt (3) slipping water pump impeller.
Hot engine, no overflow or only steam -- low/no coolant.
Thermostats can be checked. Put a candy thermometer in radiator with cap off (on cars which can be run with an open system). Observe coolant temp when circulation starts.
If engine won't normalize (modern high efficiency), remove thermostat from cold engine, test in a pan of water with a candy thermometer. Look on thermostat for temp range. Most start opening just before water boils, some just after if at high altitude. Bad ones either don't open or open very little in boiling water.
Bad thermostats can be intermittent.
Test new thermostats before installing -- I have had three bad thermostats right out of the package.
Thanks for the advise.
The coolant pump will sometimes leak during running but not leak when stopped ...so you don't see any coolant on your garage floor. Look carefully at the weep hole on the bottom of the pump housing; you may need a flashlight and small mirror to be able to see it. A small amount of residue at the weep hole is normal but if you see coolant drooling out, replace the pump. Careful checks of the radiator and all hose connections may also reveal residue that indicates a leak which evaporates rapidly such you you don't find drippage on the garage floor. Also check the heater housing and carpeting beneath the heater to see if the heater is leaking.
Hopefully, your problem is some type of external leak rather than an internal engine problem.
Thanks for your quick response and suggestion. It makes sense. However, I still can not locate any obvious leak. If it is the head gasket, can the head be re-torqued, so that the gasket is sealed to stop the possible leak? Of course, it is not going to work if the head is cracked. But, what is the risk to re-torque the head if the manufacturer's procedures is followed? Is there any test that can be done to pin point the problems associated with head, such as gasket or cracked head?
Pleas note the above posts 21-26 regarding the odor that usually accompanies a coolant leak into a combustion chamber.
Another check: If coolant is getting into a combustion chamber, sometimes the coolant's green-yellow color can be seen baked into the residue on the spark plug. Remove the plugs and inspect them carefully. This is not a certain test; it's possible to have such a leak and not find the green-yellow residue.
If the engine is performing OK and you don't have the above symptoms of an internal leak, I would not remove the cylinder head until I had a careful inspection done by someone well qualified in solving cooling system problems.
What kind of engine do you have? Please let us know what you find.
I have been talking to several mechanics, about the possible causes of the coolant loss. And, so far, I haven't find someone that I feel comfortable to turn the car in yet. Beside, it is a minor leak/loss at this point. Mbz uses a colorless ethylene glycol solution, therefore, the baked color may not be there. But, I will try to find out myself when I got a chance. One auto part store suggests a kind fluid to be added to the coolant. Under the timing gun light, you will see a different "light/color" at where the coolant leaks. It sounds pretty good, however, I havn't have guz to try it yet.
So far, I did not smell the odor of the burned ethylene glycol as discussed.
When the car is idling at intersection in hot days (outside air at 85 deg C), I can see the water temperature goes up from approximately 70 to 85 deg C. Coincidentally, more water is consumed at 85 deg C. I guess that at a higher water temperature/pressure, it leaks more. I need to add 10 oz water or so in a hot week. I did not have chance yet to hear a third opinion, but plan to do so in about 3-4 weeks.
However, ChingC, a low-temperature coolant problem does not explain the coolant loss which is the basis of your concern.
Anyhow, I am talking to another Mbz mechanic. He mentions that the Mbz's engine freeze plugs are cheap gage metal made instead of brass type, and therefore, it may leak due to corrosion. There shall be white residue around the leaking places. He pretty much agrees with you on the other possible visible spots for the causes, such as circulating pump drain hole, radiator drains, etc.
As for the coolant burning smell at the exhaust, he feels that one may not be able to smell anything for a small coolant consumption.
What shall be done on the car? His suggestion is that all "external" related cooling loss causes, such as freeze plug, radiator, circulating pumps, etc. must be ruled out first, say, with 95% certainty, before considering the head job, which is an expansive "internal" problem, $1000-1300. The alternate option is to keep on driving until the problem gets worse. Then, you know for sure that it is a head problem, assuming there are no other visible "external" problems. Anyway, I am planning to have him check it up, and the tentative appointment is set approximately two weeks from now.
As to temperature, I expect you do not have a problem because the dashboard gauge is often just a rough indicator. You could attach a thermocouple to the hot water outlet, cover it with insulation, and compare the readings with the dashboard gauge. You could then place a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator; this would force the temperature to 110+C even with the inductive primary fan running and provide a check of the secondary fan operation. If you don't have an accurate independent temperature device such as the thermocouple, however, you risk overheating with the "cardboard" procedure. In that case, ask the shop to do a temperature and auxiliary fan check.
We had a 1979 Datsun 310 which the headgasket went bad on. Lots of white smoke!
There is a slight smell of coolant in the car when the windows are closed but I don't see any leaks. Any ideas?
By the way, the overheating problem only started happening when I brought my car to the dealer about a month ago. The engine was idling rough and I was told that my spark plug wires, distributor cap and rotor needed changing. I had them do this work along with replacing the spark plugs. Is it possible that the mechanic forgot to attach a hose or something that would cause me these problems?
Please let me know. Thank you.