Clutch Questions

cymcym Member Posts: 12
I picked up my 99 4X4 V6 Tacoma on 1/31/99. It
has been great so far, however it has developed a
"clicking noise" when I depress the clutch. It
occurs about 1/2 way down when I press the clutch
pedal. You can feel it too. I took it in to the
dealer and they lubed it and "adjusted" it and it
was fine for 2 days, but then returned. It seems
to be getting worse, but it might be because I am
focusing on it so much. It is hard to hear with
the radio on, but you can feel it. I looked at
where the clutch goes into the truck body from
inside, and I can see that one part of the clutch
arm (I have no idea of the names of these parts)
striking another part (a circular ring) as it is
being depressed, thus making the noise.
Am I being really picky or would this bother other
people also? Has anyone else noticed this with
their truck(car)? Should I demand that the dealer
fix it, or is it something I should just live
(Obviously, the first lubing and adjusting didn't
last). My 82 truck's clutch never did this and it
has the original clutch (194,000 miles). Thanks
for any advice!!!


  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Maybe you could spray a dab of white grease where the parts are in rubbing contact? If not, and it bothers you, take it in and tell them it is making you unhappy. Sometimes telling them how you feel about a problem motivates them more than persuading them it's something really serious.
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    If the noise is coming from clutch linkage components inside the passenger compartment, the repair should not be difficult.

    The white-lube suggestion is good. If the problem persists, however, suggest that you return to the dealer (assuming the warranty is in effect) and point out what you have observed. Emphasize to them that it's only a linkage problem and they should be enthusiastic. Linkage repair is far less work that would be any repairs involving the primary clutch components.
  • ptailorptailor Member Posts: 42
    I've noticed that my '90 protege does this. It only occurs after driving in heavy traffic, and shifting gears from 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd. (basically it only occurs on low speeds)

    Is this what you are experiencing? My car is 10years old now and never has needed the clutch changed. I want it to last at least another month before i get my new car
  • ratchratch Member Posts: 21
    While I'm not familiar with the clutch on your vehicle, from your description I'll assume that it is mechanical with a bellcrank and torque tube.

    This, as opposed to hydraulic or cable actuated.

    If the bellcrank is striking another component, this can indicate a serious misalignment of engine/transmission mounts, a mismatch of components, or even a broken throwout fork retaining spring which allows the fork to come off the pivot ball inside the bell housing.

    I observed a similar problem in a 1975 Firebird which ate clutches because the throwout fork wasn't right for the bellhousing which wasn't right for the Corvette Muncie transmission -- and the Buick throwout bearing!

    Guess that car was built during a strike!

    My advice is to go to another dealer -- say nothing about your problem, and test drive a similar (or identical) vehicle. Look at the linkage and see if it hits.

    Read up on your state's lemon laws, then take it back and tell them you want it fixed. No need for bluster or threats, just tell them what will satisfy you. They already have one strike...
  • stliaostliao Member Posts: 2
    i just picked up my '99 jeep wrangler yesterday. that same night, i noticed that every time that i engage the clutch, there is a slight squealing sound.

    i called the dealer, and he said that since it's a new car, i will notice all sorts of noises and should wait 200-300 miles to let the jeep "settle." and if the noises persist, then i should bring the jeep in.

    this sounds a little sketchy to me. what do you think?
  • jsh139jsh139 Member Posts: 42
    hmm, the clutch in my car (Eclipse) makes a rubbing/crunching sound (and you can feel some kind of rubbing) when I disengage it. It's a hydraulic clutch, it shouldn't need any adjusting should it? It doesn't affect driving or gear switching (no slippage that I can detect). The clutch master cylinder seems full ..

    any thoughts?
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Stlaio, a slight squealing sound is probably not serious - but it could be. It's possible, but unlikely, that it will cure itself. The problem could be associated with the clutch contact face, the release bearing, or (less likely) the clutch pedal/linkage. Suggest that you get back to the dealer at your convenience, rather than specifically waiting 300 miles, and be sure to make them understand that the problem needs to be corrected. Some shops would like for you to become accustomed to the noise and therefore forget about it.

    Jsh139, the "rubbing/crunching" is symptomatic of a release bearing if the clutch disengages fully, engages smoothly, and does not slip. While driving on a quiet street at a steady speed of 25 to 30 MPH, depress the pedal slightly but not enough to disengage the clutch. Hear the noise? If so, it is very likely the release bearing. The bearings on a few cars can be lubricated in place; most cannot and therefore need to be replaced. A new bearing won't cost much but the labor to remove and reinstall the transmission could be significant.
  • jsh139jsh139 Member Posts: 42
    Thanks spokane! I'll have the dealer check it out (might as well do it while the warranty is still in effect).

  • stliaostliao Member Posts: 2
    spokane...miraculously, the noise has stopped. if i get a chance to stop the dealership, i might have them look at it anyway. thanks.
  • seanaseana Member Posts: 1
    I have a'99 Subaru Forester. When releasing the clutch, the pressure is uneven, hence making a smooth release nearly impossible. The dealer mechanic drove it around a was unable to detect any problem. Looking under the pedal I noticed a spring to assist in depressing the clutch. The spring pivots causing the 'uneven' pressure. I didn't see any adjustment for this. Any suggestions? (Before either the clutch fries or my leg does.)
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    The assist spring pivot may indeed be the source of your problem, Seana. Most vehicles do not have an adjustment. However, a you indicate, a spring-length adjustment is not what's needed's the spring mounting or pivot. In most cases there is no type of bearing to provide a smooth pivot. Therefore a rough surface at the contact point of the spring loop and the bracket (or stud) is the problem. Suggest you first try a little lubriplate (or similar white lubricant) at each end of the spring; with someone working the clutch pedal as you apply it. If that doesn't work, it may be necessary to remove the spring and sand the contact surfaces. This is a strong spring and a suitable spring tool will probably be required. Note that if the lubriplate helps a little, you have a strong case for insisting that the dealer remove/replace the spring and/or its attachment devices.
  • rrickettsrricketts Member Posts: 1
    I own a 1993 Toyota Corolla - At times (mainly when the clutch is depressed for more than a few seconds) although the pedal is pressed down completely the car will begin to slip back into gear.
    When this happens the pressure against my foot (from the clutch pedal) also decreases.
    Letting the pedal up and pressing again solves the problem.
    Some mechanic tried to tell me I needed a whole new clutch and that the problem was with my master cylinder. That didn't make sense to me so I plan on getting it looked at by another mechanic.
    Any comments?
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    If you've got clutch hydraulics, it could be your master cylinder. I can't remember if that model has hydraulics or if it works on cables. If you do have clutch hydraulics, make sure thatn there aren't any fluid leaks. You won't be able to tell what the condition of the clutch is until you have your hydraulics straightened out.

    Conference Host
  • aadrewaadrew Member Posts: 2
    My clutch pedal has to be depressed all the way to the floor to fully disengage the clutch. I would like the clutch to disengage when the pedal is approx. 1" closer to me, so that I could adjust my seat for greater comfort. I am petite and the issue is distance from the steering wheel (air bag).

    Does anyone know how to do this? The car is a Volkswagen GTI (2000 model year).
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    It sounds like your adjustment is definitely off. How you adjust it on that model, I don't know (some help I am)!!

    Does anyone know if this model is hydraulic or mechanical? Is it easy to adjust? Perhaps this is something you could have done under warranty. I'd imagine that whoever did the pre-delivery inspection should've adjusted the clutch so that it engaged half way between fully pushed in and fully disengaged.
  • tcwongtcwong Member Posts: 9

    I have a 94 Acura Integra with a hydraulic clutch.
    My car is not allowing me to shift into a gear while coming out of another one, say from 3rd to 4th. I had to stop, pump the clutch a few times before I was able to drive off. This just started happening. I have replaced the clutch master cylinder about 2 months ago because it was leaking. I check the lines and there are no leaks. I replaced the slave cylinder last night, but the problem is still there. This problem is intermittent at this point.

    Any ideas? I have 142K freeway miles on the car. The clutch is not slipping.

  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    The problem may not be leakage, but air in the system. Although clutch hydraulics are not very difficult to bleed, you may want to have it bled again.
  • tcwongtcwong Member Posts: 9

    I bled the system again making sure all the air was out of the system, but I still had the problem with shifting. I finally took it to a clutch shop last week and they said my clutch needed to be replaced. They suspected that the spring on the clutch disk might have popped out. Sure enough that was what had happened. Now with the clutch replaced, I am able to shift again.
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    Good. Thanks for the follow-up!
  • gba2michgba2mich Member Posts: 22
    Clutch is hydraulic...drawing fluid off of the brake adjustment to be made.....I recommend to the GTI owner to drive the car some more...the clutch engagement does smooth out, and may not seem to be a problem after 1999 Jetta is the same's not that bad for shifting and engagement-disengagement....only problem is if I sit in gear at a light (which I try to avoid)....the bottom on the clutch is way at the floorboard, and quite a long stretch (i'm 5'10").....
  • tkabbestkabbes Member Posts: 14
    A friend of mine has a 1989 Jeep Wrangler with a 5 speed. The clutch barely engages when the pedal is mashed to the floor. First and second gear are becoming difficult to get into.
    The system is hydraulic. The hydraulic line disappears into the bell housing where the slave cylinder is hidden.
    Is there an adjustment at the pedal or at the fluid reservoir; per a previous unrelated post someone mentioned a similar problem with a reply mentioning air in the system.
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    hanks for the follow-up, gba2mich!!
  • rgmpgrgmpg Member Posts: 3
    I've got a 1991 Ford Probe GL, manual trans. Had induction service a few weeks ago. Since then the car hesitates/jerks as it accelerates through 1st and 2nd gear, sometimes in 3rd. Problem is worse when car is warmed up. The only way I've been able to avoid problem is by riding the clutch constantly in the first few gears. Mechanic says it is a "soft plate" in clutch, recommends replacing entire clutch. Sound right?
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    No, rgmpg, it doesn't sound right. But we need more information about the "induction service" which you had done. What symptoms did you have prior to that work and what details can you provide regarding the work that was performed? Was some other operational problem solved by that servicing?
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    I own an 84 Rabbit GTI and had the clutch replaced about 10 months ago. Before I replaced the clutch, I had a slight hesitation/jerking motion only when accelerating in 2nd gear. After the clutch was replaced, along with rear main crankshaft seal and a used tranny, it hesitates/jerks more noticeably when in 2nd,3rd, or sometimes 4th gear, especially climbing a hill. That hesitation only occurs from 2,200 to 2,500 rpms under slow to moderate acceceleration,and stops if I press the gas down harder or allow the rpms to go up to 3,000. I also noticed it is hard to get it to engage smoothly when changing gears. You really have to concentrate to keep it from engaging too abruptly and causing a slight shudder felt through pedals and steering. My clutch is operated by a cable. Could this problem possibly be caused by the clutch not aligned properly in the housing or maybe contaminated by oil causing it to slip?? Of does the clutch need to be adjusted? I originally thought the clutch just needed to be broken in, but the problem continues. The only adjustment I know of has to do with the cable and all that really does is add more or less dead pedal travel. Any help as to what may be causing the problem and how to alleviate it would be much appreciated! Thanks!!
  • childrethchildreth Member Posts: 1
    I have a 1996 Saab 900 with 45000 miles on it. Currently it is in the shop, seems as though the dealership has it more than I do!. Anyway, I noticed one day that I was having difficutly excellerating up hills. Than within 48 hours, excellerating at stop lights and tolls were noticable----seven days later my car couldn't even make it to the dealership and I had to have it towed there.
    After diagnostics, I was informed that I needed a who;e new clutch... two days later I was informed that due to my driving for such a LONG time with a bad clutch, they had to send my flywheel out to be after speaking with numerous people, I have been told that in order for a bad clutch to effect a flywheel takes months of driving ( my problem only lasted for 7 days before I couldn't even MOVE the car). I have also been informed that if a car has a bad flywheel, the clutch will go very fast---such as mine. Could anyone validate this information for me?
  • bobs5bobs5 Member Posts: 557
    If the clutch were slipping, it could build up tremendous heat in the flywheel and warp it.

    If the flywheel were warped, it could prematurely wear out the clutch plate...uneven engagement between clutch and flywheel.

    If the clutch were worn out, down to the rivets, it could badly score the flywheel, requiring it to be machined smooth a bad brake pad scores the brake rotor.

    A bad clutch plate can score the heck out of a flywheel in 7 days.

    Sounds like your mechanic is on top of things.

    How was the pressure plate and throw out bearing?

    45k miles seems premature for a clutch, but I guess it can happen.

    My 1986 plymouth reliant has 139k on original clutch.

    Good luck
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    #25 Suggest that you check the condition of your motor mounts. That may not be the problem but a broken motor mount can cause all the symptoms which you describe. Good luck.
  • wjm1wjm1 Member Posts: 33
    I have a '93 Escort with 70K on it. When I should replace the clutch?
  • clintonjohnclintonjohn Member Posts: 99
    When it wears out. Seriously, I don't believe(personal opinion) that the clutch is a 'routine maintenence' item like timing belt, radiator hoses, etc. When you notice the clutch starting to slip, then its about time. I've got 168k on the original clutch, had friends with cars with 175k on the clutch. Alot of the longevity will be determined by how hard you are on the clutch. If you ride the clutch pedal, quick starts, etc. Keep your foot off the pedal unless shifting, and smooth starts and shifts and changing trans fluid at specified interval in manual will go a long way to maximizing life of clutch.
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    clintonjohn is right. Clutches are not a "regular maintenance" item. Think of this: would you go out and have a heart/lung transplant simply because you were 45 years old? No. Replace your clutch when it needs replacement, not when you reach some designated mileage.
  • carriehcarrieh Member Posts: 2
    A few months ago the clutch went out on my 95 Neon. I was on vacation when it happened and had to have it towed to the nearest repair shop. The guy replaced it alright! It cost over $500! He said that he had to order it from Mopar and that there was only one type for my car. Is this true?
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    Maybe so. $500 is not out of line for a clutch job.
  • ChurdKChurdK Member Posts: 7
    I purchased an Infiniti G20t from INFINITI OF BEVERLY HILLS last November that now has 11,000 miles on it. I've driven it about 75/25 city highway. In July, I noticed a burning smell and a "crunch" in the clutch pedal that I hadn't noticed before. I took it to the dealer and told them about my problem -- they drove it around the block (seriously) and said there was no problem. Last week, the clutch abruptly failed, with no previous warning, and I was barely able to limp to the dealer, the car not being able to go faster than about 25 mph because of the shot clutch. The dealer told me that the clutch was a "regular wear item" that wasn't covered under warranty and that it would cost ME $790 to fix! When I pointed out that the car had been in the shop the PREVIOUS DAY for maintenance and that they had detected no problems with the car on their road test, they hemmed and hawed, admitted that my clutch problem was "very unusual" and that "they had never seen anything like it" but nevertheless refused to cover it under warranty.
    I will now have to take them to court for negligence and breach of contract. Two things:
    1) How can something be a failure "that never normally occurs" and still be "normal wear and tear"?
    2) Just because a car company gives you a free rental and washes your car doesn't make it a "good" company. No wonder Nissan is in trouble if it's pulling crap like this. I will never buy another Nissan or Infiniti product again.
  • clintonjohnclintonjohn Member Posts: 99
    i wouldnt consider 11000 to be normal wear and tear on a part that should last well over 100000 miles. Only issue is if you beat on the clutch-riding it while you drive, jack rabbit starts, etc.
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    I agree with clintonjohn.

    Churdk, you have an excellent case in that the shop verified the clutch was OK immediately before it failed.

    Suggest that you pursue the liability question with the Nissan zone office before going to the trouble of involving your attorney.

    Please keep in mind, however, that some very conservative drivers do abuse clutches rather badly. To avoid stalling, they unknowingly slip the clutch quite a bit. In many cases, it has become habit and these drivers don't realize they have reduced the clutch life. Of course, if clutches in your previous cars have lasted 60,000+ miles, you surely are not guilty of this.
  • butch11butch11 Member Posts: 153
    For a clutch to go in 11K, there has to be either severe abuse or something is defective. I see a lot of people who are clutch pedal riders-they do not remove their foot from the clutch pedal till they get into top gear-great way to destroy a clutch. This is the same crowd that keeps their foot on the brake-keeps mechanics busy.

    If you are not a jack rabbit at every light or a clutch rider-gotta be a problem with the clutch. Got 195K from my last Honda clutch and they are notoriously soft-mostly in town driving. Got to be something bad wrong with this vehicle.
  • iamwhoamiamwhoam Member Posts: 23
    I have a 95 saturn SL2 76,000 with a 5 speed. I guess it is hydraulic because there is a clutch resevoir. I'm not a mechanic so hang with me here. I had the clutch replaced/fixed at 40K (18 months ago) because of a weak plate( saturn diagnosed and fixed), Saturn paid for it after I almost went postal. SInce then I have done alot of 350 mile trips, accounting for the high mileage. The problem:

    On cold (30 and below) mornings when I'm starting out in first gear I get some slipping and shuddering. When the car warms up after 10-15 minutes I can't get the car to fail. The pedal also seems to "stick" to the floor alittle bit. If I very slooooowly let out the clutch, it doesn't seem to happen. I've checked the clutch and transmission fluid levels and they look good.

    I've never heard of this before, I'm thinking about getting rid of my car soon, so I would like to know if I'm going to have problems trading it in or sticking someone with a lemon. Also if it isn't a big problem I may hold onto it till late spring. Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated.

  • pat455pat455 Member Posts: 603
    Folks, we are combining some other topics on clutch issues into this one. If anyone would like to see the other discussions that have been going on, here they are:

    Do I need clutch work? (Topic #243)

    How can clutch last longer? (Topic #504)

    Pardon the interruption, please continue. :-)

    Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
  • csnake28csnake28 Member Posts: 1
    Hey everyone,
    My wife drives a 92 Chevy Cavalier with a five speed. Her sister gave it to us for free, so we're not complaining about any of the problems it has. I would like to fix some if possible however. The clutch doesn't engage until the pedal is almost all the way out, and it slips a bit if a gun it in fourth or fifth gear. Seems I should be able to adjust this(cable, not hydraulic), but the Book we have(not sure if it's chilton's or other) does not clearly explain how to do this. I'vle looked a bit for someplace I might be able to make such an adjustment, but to no avail. Anyone know where this adjustment would be made for her car, if it can be made? Thanks for the help.
  • rajorshidrajorshid Member Posts: 2
    The clutch on my 1997 Nissan Altima feels longer after I hurt my foot.

    Earlier it didn't bother me much (ignored it as a quirk in a otherwise lovable car). But now, with the foot injury I am seriously looking for some
    way to shorten the clutch play. Any suggestions on how/where to get this done? It is still under warranty (3K miles to go on the 36K warranty).

  • bobs5bobs5 Member Posts: 557
    Sorry to hear about your foot injury. That must be very annoying. Thats one of the drawbacks about having a clutch.
    I don't know if it is possible to shorten the clutch travel distance.
    You could always ask your mechanic about this.
    Perhaps the foot could be wrapped with an ace bandage, or a nice pair of work boots which go up past the ankle would give better support until the foot heals.
  • bill11770bill11770 Member Posts: 29
    I just got a 97 Nissan Altima with a 5 speed.
    During the cold morning, when i shift into 2nd, I
    can feel the gears kind of connecting even with
    clutch to the floor. When the car warms up,
    shifting into 2nd is fine? It almost feels like
    the syncronizer isn't up to snuff when it's cold?
    Does anyone know the synchronizer is the problem
    could it be something else? Can the 97 Altima
    clutch be adjusted to fix this?
  • bertone1984bertone1984 Member Posts: 1
    Just had transmission replaced on an 1984 Fiat X 1/9 Bertone. Mechanic told me I would need to get my clutch adjusted.

    Showed me the cable, told me to get 2 13mm wrenches and tighten the bolts.

    Clutch is hydraulic and book says, "No Free Play."

    Do I put the car in gear or neutral? How do I
    know when it is adjusted correctly?

    Please e-mail me: [email protected]
  • nwk00nwk00 Member Posts: 2
    Hi I have just been routed here from "How can clutch last longer?"

    Some one mention a few things to do if you absolutely want to make sure that you want your clutch to last.

    1)Dont ride your clutch
    2)Disengage your clutch at lights and put gear in neutral, in other words dont press the clutch in and hold it when you stop.

    However I have a few things that I need to clarify.

    3)Someone said that when starting from stop, it is generally better to first, press the clutch in. Second, put into gear. third, give it a tiny weeny bit of gas and then release the clutch, preferably at 1500rpm or around there. They say that this is the safest method to shift to ensure longivity of the clutch. Is it true?

    4)In relation to the above question(3), if query 3 is true, when then do I shift into other gears? You can't possible expect me to shift at that low a RPM at every gear right? =)

    5)Somebody also said the best to shift is to match engine speed with transmission speed. I understand this logic as the most wear in clutch is when the clutch is partially engaged and the transmission is spinning at a different speed from the engine. Question is how can you tell when the engine speed is in syncro with the tranmission?

    6)When you release the clutch, do you release it slowly or quickly? Because the most wear comes when the cluch is partially engaged only, it make sense to release it quickly. But wouldn't that be dumping the clutch and is bad? OR am I not totally cluelss and not making sense here?

    I just have to do an expensive clutch replacement and hence have learned my lessons in the importance of clutch maintainance. Any input will be GREATLY appreciated.

    PS when you answer could you please address the quesion number that you are addressing to? Thanks again!
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    1) I certainly agree - don't ride the clutch.

    2) When stopped in traffic (unless it's a very long wait), if your clutch is properly adjusted, leaving the car in gear with the clutch disengaged is OK; this causes very little wear.

    3) From a clutch-life perspective, the best start is with minimum engine speed - such that the engine almost stalls. Suggest you practice this in a deserted parking lot. Don't worry about stalling the engine a few times as you get the feel for the minimum RPM that will get the car moving. Then learn to rev just enough to make the starts smooth. Embarrassing as it may be, if you stall the engine occasionally your clutch technique is probably about right.

    4&5) Don't worry too much about upshifting to other gears. If the shifts feel smooth to your passengers, you almost surely are not hurting the clutch or other drivetrain components. You are quite correct that speed matching would eliminate clutch wear but, for most of us, this is a lot of effort for a very small benefit in clutch life.

    6)You're right again; quick engagement reduces the frictional wear of the clutch disc. However, the impact associated with quick engagement is likely to break the clutch linings and springs as well as other drivetrain components. Again, the best technique is a compromise.

    The conservative driver's most likely clutch-wear causes are (a)inadvertent slipping of the clutch during starting (many drivers don't realize they are doing this) and (b) clutch linkage that is maladjusted. The adjustment error can be either the inability to fully engage or the inability to fully disengage. Upshifts and downshifts, unless they are quite abrupt, contribute very little to clutch wear.
  • nwk00nwk00 Member Posts: 2
    Hi just read your reply to my questions and I must say that they were very well taken. Thanks! However I didn't understand what you meant in the last part when you said "slipping of the clutch
    during starting"?
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Nwk00, I am reminded of a young woman who drove conservatively and believed she was taking good care of her car. She was therefore shocked to find her clutch worn out at ~30,000 miles. When asked if she ever stalled the engine when engaging the clutch, she replied, "Never, not even on hills." Without realizing it, she had developed a habit of revving the engine more than necessary and very gradually engaging the clutch in order to be quite certain she never stalled the engine. She was "slipping the clutch" excessively. I am replying by way of example to emphasize that a person who is abusing the clutch my be, in all other respects, a very good driver.
  • br459br459 Member Posts: 12
    I was wondering if changing the manual tranny oil is possible for a novice. I want to put some sort of synthetic gear oil in it. I heard that it will shift a lot smoother, almost like new syncros.
    I have done it before in an automatic but never a manual.

    Thanks in advance!
  • bnormannbnormann Member Posts: 335
    This will be a tough job unless you can jack the car up. You need to have it level in order to do the fill (and possibly drain...) properly. The fill point will be a small plug on the side of the tranny. you will need a good funnel system, sometimes the lube has a nozzle on the end that will make it easier. You may also want to add a short piece of flexible tubing from the local hardware store to the end of that nozzle.

    My advice is to buy the lube yourself and find a friendly local shop that will do it for you at a somewhat reduced rate.

    FWIW, I have had good experience with Redline MTL.

    your host, Bruce
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