BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

cbanct

The AWD BMW 335xi is faster from 0 to 60 mph than the RWD 335i. This is probably due to better traction. At higher speeds the 335i is probably faster in acceleration as it weighs about 200 pounds less. In contrast, the 328xi is slower from 0 to 60 mph than the 328i.
Before seeing these statistics, my mind was made up on getting the 335i in the future. At 6500 feet above sea level where I live snow falls occasionally in the winter but lasts at most 1 to 2 days. The 335xi with summer tires may be still usable during the winter without changing to winter tires.
My concern is that BMW does not seem to approach AWD like for instance Porsche. It is designed less for performance and more for convenience.
You cannot get the 335xi with the sports suspension or paddle shifters that are available in the 335i. I have driven both vehicles and did not notice a difference. However, in a controlled environment like a track, the AWD 335xi may be easier to drive fast than the 335i in the hands of a novice.
The mileage on the highway is 2 mpg less in the 335xi than the 335i, but the faster 0 to 60 times in the 335xi makes for an interesting decision.

shipo

"The 335xi with summer tires may be still usable during the winter without changing to winter tires."

Not a chance. Summer tires have virtually no grip in the winter time, especially in the snow. True, you might be able to get'er going with AWD and summer tires, but stopping and turning abilities will be all but non-existant. Suffice to say, if you try to drive that car in the snow, it's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" you'll wreck it. Do yourself a favor and get the 335i SP and then with the money saved buy yourself a second set of winter wheels and tires.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bruceomega

cbanct,

I'll second what Shipo said about not driving in the snow with summer tires on an AWD 3 series. I had an '01 330xi that had new summer performance tires on it when I purchasd the car used. I quickly learned at first snowfall that the car with those tires does not do well in the snow!

My current car, an '06 330xi, has all season tires and it works very well in the snow.

Thanks
Bruce

cbanct

Point taken Shipo and Bruce.

What about the other performance factors mentioned. Yes, the 335xi is two thousand more, but is the better acceleration and possible handling benefits worth it in the 335xi. What made you Bruce pick the 330xi which is slower than the 330i ?
Thanks.

cbanct

shipo

While the "xi" may be faster to sixty, my bet is that it is so for the first twenty feet or so, and only for a race track clutch dropping start. Once the two cars get rolling, the extra weight of the "xi" will work against it.

As I was writing the above statement another thought occured to me. Most likely the BMW numbers were gotten by base model vehicles, meaning that there were 225 series all-season tires mounted at all four corners. Given the extra bite offered by the SP tires (both wider and grippier rubber), my bet is that the 335i will be the quicker of the two to sixty.

Regardless, you most likely won't ever be subjecting your car to such abuse and as such, the "i" will be faster in all "normal" driving environments.

In the end, were I in your shoes, I'd opt for the 335i SP and buy a second set of winter wheels and tires.

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

I won't chime in because I have my own experience with the x-drive grip with the lesser HP (330) and the SP vs. non-SP suspension performance vs. the 330i.

But, here goes anyway!!

I reserve comment on the 335xi vs the 335i until I experience the two for myself.

I can only submit that the AWD technology is awesome in the grip department. All others must experience the performance differential DESPITE the weight issue for themselves.

I have learned much on this forum regarding this class-leading driving performance that BMW owns by the personal experience of much more capable owners. I am here to tell you that irrespective of past 3'er capability, the x-drive does not detract from the experience from my view. It really is great fun for me.

All I am able to do is convey the new x-drive capabilty from my own experience, as humble as that is. Outside of on-track testing, it is very hard to get this thing loose even on all-season rubber in typical spirited almost-legal driving.

You would think the extra weight would help loose things up but the slight understeer into a turn is so easily controlled even with more juice before, at or after the apex. The x-drive is just beginning to show potential, IMHO.

Also, despite the non-SP suspension tuning, I still feel that this suspension has something the 330i non-SP does not. It's REALLY tight!

Regards,
OW

bruceomega

cbanct,

Just speaking for my own priorities and preferences, I chose AWD for better performance in adverse road conditions, all else being equal such as the same tires.

I've never tried to justify my preference for AWD with it's performance in normal road conditions. I have noted several instances, like the one you referenced for the 0 - 60 times, where AWD can have a better metric than RWD, but I view those as discrete data points in the overall performance spectrum.

I've been driving for many years. In the early days, I owned a variety of RWD cars and know how to drive them in the snow. But when I took up skiing, and was driving to mid-Atlantic ski resorts on the weekends, I switched to FWD. In my experience, FWD is better than RWD in the snow and ice (especially ice), again with everything else being equal.

I then decided to try AWD as it seemed to offer the best of both worlds- better dry road performance than FWD and better snow and ice performance than RWD, all else being equal.

My '01 330xi was my first AWD. Although it had the wrong tires for the snow, I found I could (at slow speeds) work the throttle and steering to make the car go in the snow and dance around a corner when needed, in a way I do not feel I could have done with RWD.

I traded in the '01 for the '06 330xi, and have been very pleased with its performance in the snow and ice, and it's performance overall. However, I never compared the 330xi to the 330i.

As an aside, I just ordered a new 5 series twin turbo. Like last time, I did not consider the RWD version and ordered the 535xi.

Thanks
Bruce

cbanct

Thank you for the input Bruce, Circlew and Shipo. As you all may know, Shipo is a legend on these forums. Edmunds should give you some stock options !
I will probably keep my 99 Passat 1.8T for winter driving. I still love the car even though it makes groans and moans from the suspension now.
Shipo's point about the tires used in the 0 to 60 times could be true. Edmunds did 4.9 secs from 0 to 60 in a 335i auto withe the sports package and suspension in the comparison with the Lexus IS 350. BMW lists this time as 5.6 secs. That is a big difference.
Enjoy your 535xi Bruce.

cbanct

dan12

I just saw this post and I was also trying to decide between a 335xi and a 335i. I live in Northern California but nowhere near snow, so I only need to worry about rain in the winter. I do go skiing a lot, but I will use my wife's SUV for that. I'm going from an AWD Jeep to a 335i though, so I had to consider the 335xi as well. But I guess the xi is not worth the money if I don't use it in snow. Right?

Another question... I've never had a car like the 335i with the SP that has the summer performance tires. Do I need to be worried during the winter when it rains? Or will the grip be good enough? I noticed that there are no all-season tires for the 335i with SP unless I go with a GFT and put a spare in the trunk, which I really don't want to do.

circlew

I drive the 330xi and consider the drive very stable in all weather conditions. It is interesting that I had a 335i loaner this past weekend and during the wet conditions, the traction control was working that day in the turns. The 335i has at least 60 horsepower more than I am used to and the 17 inch Continental All Weathers broke loose easily.

To answer your question, you do not need the xi unless you are really nervous in wet conditions.

As always, test them both and your personal experience will guide you.

Regards,
OW

dan12

Thanks for the info. I am not terribly nervous in wet conditions, although I did manage to spin around the last RWD car I had. That car had all seasons but it was old and had no traction control. Plus I was much younger and I wasn't thinking.

It's a little concerning that you were able to easily break loose the 335i with the 17 inch All Weathers. I wonder if the summer tires with ZSP will be even worse. I guess as long as the traction control keeps you on track, it's not a problem.

kyfdx

Good summer tires should be better in wet conditions than an all-season tire.

The only issue will be cold weather. If you don't get snow, I'd assume you don't get icy roads, either? As long as the temperature is 40+ degrees, summer tires should be better than all-seasons, in all conditions.

regards,
kyfdx
visiting host

circlew

The traction and stability control will save you in most conditions.

Summer tires are stickier (except in ice/snow) but wear faster than AWT.

Unless you see a lot of ice and snow, 335i is all you need. If you get ZSP, I believe summer tires are included.

Regards,
OW

dan12

Interesting. I thought summer tires would get less traction in wet conditions. It's good to know that it's the other way around.

I don't see any ice or snow in the San Francisco Bay Area. I see it when I go skiing up in Tahoe, but I won't be taking the 335i up there. So I will stick with the 335i with ZSP in that case. Thanks a lot.

xeye

I've found an interesting comment from several other Bimmer owners in the Boston area. For anyone who's been to the Beacon Hill area, this comment will ring true. I'm sure this is not isolated to the New England region.

I've met owners of several generations of RWD and AWD BMW vehicles who live on hills or have lengthy sloped driveways. The one consistent comment, after trading up to xi, is that they are delighted to be able to finally drive their xi's all the way up to their front doors instead of having to park the RWDs at the bottom of the driveway for a few months of the year simply because the traction is insufficient even with grippy snow tires.

I can tell you that they are confirmed converts to the xi technology. Unless you are racing your vehicle, if your region has the potential for snow, even a little, go for the xi. The performance difference, small that it may be, will be well worth it.

Consider this picture:

Repeated trips through the cold wet snow carrying bags of groceries, kids, hockey equipment, etc, or...

The heated seats keeping you toasty as you casually motor right to your front door.

xeye - 335xi

circlew

Small that it may not be...you need to get the SP for the performance edge, in my experience. The difference is slightly weighted steering feel, not loss of handling performance with the xeye!

The MT is an edge slower in acceleration than the AT so power difference is a toss up.

Rgards,
OW

shipo

Hmmm, something doesn't ring true about that. I live at the end of a cul-de-sac in southern New Hampshire that requires me to climb two 8% grades to get home, and then there's my driveway with its 10% grade. My 530i with summer tires was worthless in even an eighth of an inch of snow, but with a set of decent winter tires mounted I never even once had an issue getting up any of the hills.

The flip side of course is that several of my neighbors on the opposite side of our street have driveways that have grades in excess of 30%. True, my 530i couldn't climb them in the snow, but then, none of their AWD and winter tire equipped vehicles could climb them either.

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

...but then, none of their AWD and winter tire equipped vehicles could climb them either.

I'll bet a 535xi could with AWT's!

Regards,
OW

shipo

No chance. Not even the A4 Quattros with winter tires can climb them.

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

Then snow shoes it is!

Regards,
Ow

tintinet

Dunno. I have been to the land of AWD in winter (Maine, Subaru WRX, LGT- both modified for more HP, torque, better handling and suspension.) It's dang tough to go back to 2 wheelers, either RWD or FWD and feel quite the same in any kind of adverse weather.

tintinet

IME, AWD is a benefit in any kind of adverse weather (rain, snow, in between, and just wet road.) I've avoided 2 head on collisions on freeways (both cars going about 80 MPH in opposite directions) in my modified AWD WRX. I'm pretty sure the AWD saved me, scratchless, from both- one due to black ice, the other due to heavy rain and other car's hydroplaning. Don't think you "won't need" AWD- Ya, not until it's too late!

circlew

I had one similar emergency maneuver in my 330xi when I had to accelerate and go lock/lock to avoid being hit in the side from a van making a left turn from the right lane of a two lane highway, no signal. I was lucky enough that there was no on-coming traffic at that instant because I was into the far lane on the other side of the double-yellow and was able to get back quick. Speed was around 30 MPH before the knucklehead turned in. Weather was bone dry.

The car just did not let go on any tire and I avoided the collision. Not to say I could not have done it in RWD car but I will never know.

Regards,
OW

shipo

I highly doubt that you can prove that AWD saved you when compared to an otherwise similar RWD car with skid control and other modern electronics. You can believe it if you want, but I certainly don't.

If you need to manuver, then leave the front wheel alone to do their job, namely to turn. Said another way, give me the option of either a 335i and winter tires or a 335xi with all seasons and I'll pick the former here in New England every time.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro

There is clearly a division of opinion regarding AWD.

Best - AWD with 4 snows.
Better - AWD with good all seasons.
OK - RWD with snows.
Stinks- RWD with all seasons.

My opinion is based on years of driving having tried each one of the above.

shipo

Based upon my experience up here in New Hampshire, I'd make a couple of minor changes to your list:

Best - AWD with 4 snows.
Better - RWD with snows.
OK - AWD with good all seasons.
Fair (especially if terrain is relatively flat) - RWD with all seasons.
Sucketh - AWD with summer rubber.
Sucketh much - RWD with summer rubber.

Best Regards,
Shipo

xeye

OK, my turn. This is bound to stimulate a response, especially from Shipo!

Having learned how to drive in the worst conditions in Montreal (with all due respect, New Hampshire, while getting a lot of snow, is Disneyland when compared to crappy driving conditions in Montreal), I am qualified to offer the definitive tires for the given conditions.

Best - AWD with 4 snows. AGREED
Better - AWD with good all seasons. We'll see on the 335xi. I have the ContiProContact M&S. I'd rather have 4 snows, but I'll report honestly after deep snow, slush, ice.
Better - RWD with snows. On ice only. I'd rather be in a wild fishtail on RWD snows than AWD.

On snow? No Way.

Fair (especially if terrain is relatively flat) - RWD with all seasons.
Sucketh - AWD with summer rubber.
Sucketh much - RWD with summer rubber.

On another note, I need an opinion:

After conversation with the Service Director of my sales dealership where I bought my 335xi, he could not find a technician who could explain why the 335xi does not get an oil cooler when the 335i does. He therefore, graciously, offered to finance one if I so choose. He agreed to my request to put it in writing on dealership letterhead.

So far (~2100 miles), the car has behaved well, no overheating and the oil has been consistently below 250. Do I mess with something that isn't broken or go for the cooler and risk issues where there aren't any now? I don't race and my driving, although moderately "spirited", is not geared to attract attention, if you get my point.

Still, I want the protection that a properly installed oil cooler would provide. Are there any issues with installing an oil cooler in less than racing conditions?

Comments?

xeye

fedlawman

By finance, do you mean he'll pay for it? If so, then go for it. There is no down side to adding an extra oil cooler, and the benefits in engine life could be dramatic.

BTW, I also learned how to drive in Montreal (DDO/Pointe Claire actually). My dad taught me in a 1979 Honda Civic 5-speed. I took my exam during a blizzard in a Chrysler K car (High School drivers ed car).

shipo

The problem I have with putting an all-season shod AWD car ahead of a winter tire shod RWD car is that the only category where the AWD car will outperform the RWD sibling is in acceleration. The RWD car will still accelerate moderately well, however, it will turn and stop WAY better than the AWD car given the greater bite of the winter tires.

True story, shortly after putting the winter tires (Michelin Arctic-Alpins) on my 530i, we were in the midst of a twenty some inch snow fall with widely scattered power outages predicted. With between eight and ten heavily rutted inches of snow on the roads I headed out in the 530i to fetch gasoline for our generator. Once on the main road I passed a whole line of FWD cars struggling to climb a hill, not to mention a Crown Vic patrol car stuck in the ditch on the opposite side of the road. Once clear of those obstructions, I had clear sailing for the next couple of miles up the winding and hilly road, until I got slowed down by a line of 4WD SUVs that were fishtailing and/or sliding all over the place.

If you haven't driven a late model BMW in the snow, deep snow even, with a set of good winter tires, you simply cannot imagine how stable winter driving can be.

Best Regards,
Shipo

xeye

Hi,

Yes, I should have been clear. Either the dealership or BMW will pay for the cooler. I'm not sure which, but either way, it's not me. I guess my only concern is a botched job and making the current benign situation a nagging headache.

I suppose I have to assume they'll do a proper job and decide solely on the merits of the cooler.

xeye

kdshapiro

"The problem I have with putting an all-season shod AWD car ahead of a winter tire shod RWD car is that the only category where the AWD car will outperform the RWD sibling is in acceleration."

I couldn't disagree more. In deep snow having 2 wheels push and 2 wheels pull, even without snows, provides better traction than having 2 wheels push.

circlew

Having driven in 16"-20" of unplowed snow last year, AWD with AS tires were fantastic in acceleration, stopping and turning. I am sure the winter tires would be even better. Actually stopping power is what amazed most me knowing the lesser snow capability of the AS tires. The handling was always there in the wet as well as light snow and slush.

Regards,
OW

shipo

Uhhh, I don't understand what your saying. I believe that I stated that the All-Season shod AWD car would out accelerate the Winter tire shod RWD car. Aren't you saying the same thing?

My issue is that AWD does absolutely nothing for stopping (except that the added weight makes stops LONGER), and as such, the winter tire equipped RWD car will always stop shorter than the all-season AWD car. Turning will also tilt the advantage to the properly set-up RWD car as the turning tires will have more bite than the relatively slippery front tires of the AWD car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Lemme get this straight. You drove in twenty inches of unplowed snow, snow that was very nearly up to the top of the radiator grill? Either that stuff was VERY POWDERY or you went about ten feet before you got stuck. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

Very powdery and drifts to 20". There were nothing on the roads but 4WD and the plows at the time. Most roads had at least 8" of packed, rutted snow and the hotel I drove around had at least 16-20" of virgin snow without any icy base.

Regards,
OW

shipo

Ahhh, I see. FWIW, that would have been no problem at all in any RWD BMW with winter tires either. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

No doubt. I am sure that the capability is the same. It's the "training wheels" thing for me and the frugality to stretch the AS RFT's!

Regards,
OW

kdshapiro

No I am not talking about acceleration. I am talking about the ability for the car not to get stuck in certain types of deep snow conditions.

shipo

Then I submit to you that the RWD car with winter tires would be the overall safer bet to drive in the winter time, hence my ranking it just behind the AWD car with Winter tires.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro

That's where we disagree. Hence my ranking AWD with good all-seasons better than RWD with snows.

spiritinthesky

Having learned how to drive in the worst conditions in Montreal (with all due respect, New Hampshire, while getting a lot of snow, is Disneyland when compared to crappy driving conditions in Montreal),

Check your weather statistics and then check your ego. Montreal averages 215cm of annual snowfall, about 85" for us metric challenged Yankees. Syracuse averages 110", Buffalo over 90". Concord New Hampshire is a rather mild 64", but Mt. Washington is over 250" a year and if you are close to or north of it, you are over 100".

Montreal doesn't come close to the snowfall those of us who have endured Cornell or the University of Sryacuse have had to put up with (I was a visiting guest professor at both in my younger years, before global warming). I have spent a fair time in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto as well. Nice cities, all of them.

After conversation with the Service Director of my sales dealership where I bought my 335xi, he could not find a technician who could explain why the 335xi does not get an oil cooler when the 335i does.

You won't find this posted on BMW's web site, but after looking into the oil cooler issue myself (my nephew has an early build 335i in which the oil cooler was installed after delivery) the reason given to me by a senior BMW manager was that they don't consider the 335ix a model that is likely be tracked (and therefore run at high rpms for extended periods). In his words (paraphrased) BMW did not design the 335ix to be as "serious" of high performance sport sedan as the 335i sedan/coupe. Even equiped with a sport package, the suspension and tires are "detuned" compared to the non-x full sport package.

And, sure enough, my nephew who has now taken two BMW performance driving school and gone to three different tracks on several occasions on "BMW day" has only met one single 335ix owner compared to dozens of 335i and even 328i owners.

The good news is that there have been almost no overheating issues with cars that are not tracked, so you shouldn't have any problems in normal driving. If you do plan on going to the track, you might want to consider taking up the dealer on their offer. But you will be pretty lonely, from what I understand.

xeye

Spirit in the sky and head in the clouds,

None of the cities you mentioned get the kind of harsh weather Montreal gets. Lots of snow, no doubt, but not -20 to -30 for weeks on end, thaws and deep freezes back to back, and packed snow so hard it's like driving on a skating rink. Thank you, I'll stick with the xi and the intelligent DSC and stick to the road in all conditions better than any RWD; starting, stopping and turning. I'm really looking forward to the winter, for a change.

As for the cooler, and YOUR ego, Dr. spiritinthesky, just because I choose to drive a safe car with a 300 hp engine is no reflection on any desire to run at high RPM. "High RPM" does not necessarily mean 130 MPH on the track - it also means red-line shifting in any gear, anywhere. The fact is that the decision to omit the cooler was not a technical decision but a marketing one. I'm also quite sure that 90% of the 335is out there will NEVER be tracked, just like 90%+ of 4x4 SUVs will never see off-road duty. That being the case, the cooler should have been an after-market option or an extra cost dealer option, or in my case, included on every car equipped with the 335 twin-turbo engine.

Since I see that the cooler should not hurt the car and can only improve longevity, I see no reason not to avail myself of the opportunity at no cost to me.

Out of idle curiosity, what do you drive?

BTW, say hi to your nephew, Mario Earnhardt Johnson Busch Petty Patrick.

circlew

I applaud your nephew and I am sure he is "up to speed" on a much higher level now in terms of handling a car. I am curious as to why he chose xi over 335i.

Regards,
OW

pat

To both of you - let's skip the argument over who has the worst weather and leave out the personal comments, please.

spiritinthesky

just because I choose to drive a safe car with a 300 hp engine is no reflection on any desire to run at high RPM. "High RPM" does not necessarily mean 130 MPH on the track - it also means red-line shifting in any gear, anywhere.

Calm down. The oil overheating issue doesn't occur from occassionally, or even frequently, shifting at red line. The documenting instances of overheating were almost exclusively from running the car at high speed and high rpms for long, continuous periods of time. Either on a track or in a severe road test environment (i.e. California desert).

You asked why the cooler isn't standard in the ix, but is in the sport package equiped i. I relayed what I was told by a senior BMW engineer. I agree it appears to be a marketing decision, based upon the fact that, historically, the "x" AWD package was an even more infrequent visitor to the track, compared to RWD models.

Out of idle curiosity, what do you drive?

2003 BMW M5 (46,000 miles on the odometer)
2007 911 Turbo (9,500 miles on the odometer)

spiritinthesky

I applaud your nephew and I am sure he is "up to speed" on a much higher level now in terms of handling a car. I am curious as to why he chose xi over 335i.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but he chose the 335i, not the xi. He went the European Delivery route and the xi wasn't even a choice back then. His car was an early build and they notified him when the car was en route to the US that they would be installing an oil cooler upon arrival.

But let me use the opportunity to lobby on behalf of the BMW/Porsche/Skip Barber and other professionally instructed performance driving schools. If you can make the time, don't even think for a second about the money. They are worth many times their price in the expereince itself and the future enjoyment you will get out of your car.

xeye

Hi Spirit,

Nice cars. I've wanted some seat time in the 911 Turbo since I was in short pants. A timeless set of wheels, to be sure.

I don't run my 335xi at the extreme conditions you describe, nor do I ever intend to, although a high-speed run across the country would be interesting ( I don't think I could afford the speeding tickets). The bottom line question I have, though, is do you think it would nonetheless extend the life of the seals, cylinders, valves, etc, by having the oil cooler in-line? Would it help sustain the resale value of the car? Remember that it will cost me no $$ to have the work done.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
xeye

cc HOST: I really have to remember to post messages BEFORE Attitude Readjustment Hour.

pat

csk2

I believe you can get the oil cooler on the xi. You have to get the SP and in addition order the 18 inch wheels.

spiritinthesky

The bottom line question I have, though, is do you think it would nonetheless extend the life of the seals, cylinders, valves, etc, by having the oil cooler in-line? Would it help sustain the resale value of the car?

"Not really" to both questions - but it's free insurance so, yes, I'd go ahead and get it.

By the way, one of the best things you can do for your seals, cylinders and gaskets is proper break in. That includes driving the car long enough for the engine oil to reach full operating temperature before shut down. I've seen Shipo, Habitat or one of the other "regulars" posting that recommendation in various forums and it is probably the best free advice I've seen here. So, yes, take the free oil cooler as insurance for overheating; but also avoid short hops during break in that don't give the engine the opportunity to fully "heat up". If the engine parts, seals and gaskets don't fully heat up, expand and contract during break in, they will be more prone to leaks, cracks, etc. down the road.

unlimitedjoe

just got thru reading everything. what i learned is what i already thought i new awd on any car is better.being that all rubber being the same in any conditions on any roads.if anyone disagrees please explain where & when is it better.