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And there are plenty of rich people who want good stuff but just want to live in their dungarees and aren't especially interested in the trappings associated with owning their Bentley or whatever. The millionaire next door if you will (the one I know wears a Rolex but drives XC90s).
Other folks want to pour over every Robb Report and that's fine too. And for those folks, the Hyundai experience isn't going to satisfy them.
Heh, I just went back to Post #1 and realized that I started this discussion. So I think I get dibs on defining just what we are talking about. :shades:
Luxury market does not only involve cars but also the total ownership experience (which is defined in my previous post). If you are an engineer I'll make this easier for you.
Luxury Market is LM
Car is A
Total ownership experience is B
LM = A + B
Hyundai has the A covered with the Genesis but is lacking the B and that was I am trying to argue with. I didn't say the car shouldn't be involved and as you can see in my previous post I did acknowledge the Genesis as a very capable car to compete with its luxury brand competitors.
What I am arguing here is the B
If this is too complicated for you then well...
Then you probably want to change the thread title because if it's only about the cars the title sure doesn't reflect that.
Some like: Is the Genesis, the car, as good as its luxury brand competitors?
Excuse me while I grab some sardines-out-of-a-can out of my Coca-Cola nylon-manufactured lunchbox.
BTW-don't let Roger Ebert's review of the latest James Bond flick 'Quantum of Solace' dissuade you from going. It was mah-ve-lous, my son and I traveled 73 miles to a Sierra Vista, AZ, theater from little 'ole cowtown Willcox, AZ, just to see it last night. We weren't disappointed. My son offered a trite little criticism of the movie, and I couldn't disagree with him. He said it will satisfy the X-box and American A.D.D. crowd but could use a bit more dialogue. Right when you're trying to turn a little of your Jesse Stone or Perry Mason on and figure out the characters or the plot another wild action scene steals the spotlight and your thoughts are spilled to smithereens.
But, then again, the action/adventure during this film is great and you don't really want to use your noggin at a James Bond movie anyway, do you?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
But one can't say that every luxo buyer cares the same about the experience as you or I may. Hyundai may choose to emphasize the car more than the experience and I think that's legit.
The MDX is on the Robb Report list and I don't picture Acura's as having the same cachet that I'd expect to find in a Jag showroom (well, maybe Bentley would be a better example). But where are you going to draw the line?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Total market for luxury cars, in units sold per year: M
The equation before August 2008: M = A + B + C + D + F + I + J + L + P + R + ... (hopefully you get the idea)
The question in play: After August 2008, will the new equation be:
M = A + B + C + D + F + H + I + J + L + P + R + ... ,
and what will be the value of H?
So lattes lab coats and leather seats in waiting rooms don't necessarily need to be a focus of the discussion. Although if some people think they are important to what that future value of "H" becomes, I am fine with that. They just aren't important to me.
P.S. I own a luxury-brand car. I also own a Hyundai, and have owned them for over eight years, so I have ownership and dealership experience in both areas. Do I get bonus points for that?
As for the wine you mentioned in the link above, I find it surprising that you consider a wine that costs only 200gbp per CASE as something luxurious...
How about this? I don't consider YOU a true luxury buyer because you only bought a lowly IS350...
Great jumping jiminy, Louis! Just how long do you plan on spending at your dealership? What kind of "luxury" cars are you used to driving that you need all that time at the dealership? You really should consider moving up to a car that doesn't break down all the time.
My last 2 cars and 1 truck, with a total of 19 years of ownership, I have spent about 3 hours at the dealership! And that was TOO LONG!
I like luxury cars, if they are affordable and reliable. However, that "Luxury Experience" you are so proud of (sipping on expensive ink pens and all) sounds impractical and wasteful to me.
Sorry, I don't want to be "treated like royalty at the maintenance facility". I don't want to know them, and I don't want them to ever see me on the premises. Maintenance may be glamorous to you, but despised me!
You wouldn't by any chance charge people to paint your fence for you?
Want something good to eat? It just appears at your table. No waiting in line shuffling through the buffet line. What you receive will taste good. It won't be cold, or strange tasting, and the guy in front of you won't get the last piece of chocolate cake.
Flying first class? Sure the seats are more comfortable, but it's really about having a quiet flight with something decent to eat - guaranteed. That's what you're paying for - the avoidance of annoyances.
In the car luxury dealership experience terms, it means that you're in and out promptly, with your loaner car waiting as soon as you're ready for it. If you DO elect to wait, it'll be a comfortable experience. Not cold or noisy, or dirty. If you DO want the car washed, it's an option, and you know they'll do a good job.
A a non-luxury dealership, these things may happen, but there's no promise. That's what you pay for.
A friend
boughtleased a Tourag . A better deal than another X-5 he thought. BUT: he had problems with the electronics in the dash. No big deal; BMW wasn't perfect either. And that's where the difference showed up.Loaner car? Promised one at time of purchase, but he always had to remind the Service Department - hassle. Car wash? You bet, until he caught the kid washing the car with the windows open so the kid could listen to the stereo cranked up. Fixed the problems the first time? Nope. The mechanics weren't used to working on the Tourags. Didn't know how to diagnose and fix. Another call to Atlanta and we think we've got it this time, Sir.
The result? Lexus the next time. Not as good a vehicle, but no hassle, guaranteed.
I am a dyed in the wool MB fan, but I loathe dealing with MB service departments unless I am buying a small part to install myself.
I do like the dealership very much, not because of the luxury trappings but because last year, on my previous LX, they repainted the entire vehicle because of some very minor paint discolorations. The total cost (I saw the invoice) was over $7500. and they kept it for over 3 weeks to do it properly. It looked brand new. For the 3 weeks I drove a new GS 300. No charge for the paint job...and the LX had been out of warranty for over 2 years.
I like the Genesis and I would not be surprised if I own one some day. The Genesis is a tremendous bargain.
No matter how good the dealer is it is still all about the car to me.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
How can Hyundai's ever be considered Luxury cars? You can buy a brand-new Hyundai for under 15,000. The "Genesis" is not a luxury vehicle, it never will be. Genesis fanatics only like the vehicle because of the price tag, and misleading warranty...
Hyundai are trash.
I personally think VW would change to a Luxury name before Hyundai. (which will never happen either)
Interesting comment.
We here in the Edmunds forums accept your opinion, despite the fact that opinions sometimes brutalize the language or are void of any objective data.
Kindly inform Nissan, Acura, BMW, Volvo, Mazda, Saab, and many other very respected nameplates, Hyundai's trash regularly beat their scores in the most recent quality surveys from JD Power, Consumer Reports, Auto Pacific, etc.
I own a Genesis, having previously owned an Infiniti and also an Acura, and I will gladly provide (objective) extensive performance data which displays the Hyundai as superior in many categories over the vehicles I owned.
A Hyundai luxury vehicle is as hard to accept as the inevitable demise of the Big 3 , the collapse of the US economy and the US Dollar. And yet all of them are a reality.
And as an aside, the next Tuscon will go four cyclinder only, and in the process, it will get a new 2.0L I4, this engine is in the same family as the 2.4L I4 mentioned above.
You may have sensed a trend here - further improvements in fuel efficiency.
Based on that, then I'd guess the majority driving a luxury car aren't considered to be in the group - given leases have dominated in luxury vehicle sales.
I can give you a number of them but you are probably going to tell me they are not luxury cars. By the way, everyone of them I had in mind are from the typical "luxury/premium" brands (i.e. BMW, Lexus)
How can Hyundai's ever be considered Luxury cars? You can buy a brand-new Hyundai for under 15,000. The "Genesis" is not a luxury vehicle, it never will be. Genesis fanatics only like the vehicle because of the price tag, and misleading warranty...
Just because you can buy a Hyundai for 15K, so what? Actually, it's $9,970, the Accent just grabbed the cheapest MSRP from the Versa for the US market. Anyway, is there a magic line that defines one way or the other? Along the same idiotic lines, can you not consider the GT-R a supercar because Nissan sells a brand new Versa for under 10K? or BMW has its 1er priced under 30K?
Saying people like the Genesis simply because of the price tag, and misleading warranty just show how ignorant you are, and the fact you haven't driven one...
Hyundai are trash.
I personally think VW would change to a Luxury name before Hyundai. (which will never happen either)
I won't go into the "Hyundai are trash" since I see other have already touched upon the subject.
But, in the case of VW, and fyi, they have a luxury brand already, and it's called Audi. Oh by the way, VW tried its hand on luxury vehicles for the US market, and the automaker failed miserably.
carolinabob wrote:
However, it appears many will not admit to problems or just don't understand how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories
dm1212 wrote:
How can Hyundai's ever be considered Luxury cars?
And he goes on to talk about how low pricing on other models disqualifies them.
Bob simply had unrealistic expectations. His Azera starts out around $24k list, and even the Limited is just $27k for starters. Clearly that is not luxury territory, yet he clearly has the expectations of a luxury customer.
Fact is, even the Limited model (at full MSRP, and who pays that?) is priced below the NADA average price for a new car. That's not luxury, not near-luxury, not even close!
It's a below average-car price, and for that the expectations should be, at most, average.
Then dm1212 says Hyundai is not even close, well, which is it, guys? Why don't you argue with each other, come up with a verdict, and get back to us.
Fact is, Azera is aspirational, but that's not the same as luxury. The Genesis is a lot closer to the luxury standard, but pricing still puts it firmly in the near-luxury class, even for the V8.
I'm not sure what cut off point people use for "luxury", but I'd propose somewhere in the neighborhood of $36-40,000 or so, at least, and by the way that is for a COMPACT.
Anything close is near-luxury, maybe 30-36 or so.
Below that is mainstream, plain and simple.
Bob had completely unrealistic expectations for his Azera. It's priced like a loaded 4 cylinder Accord or Altima, not like a BMW.
Welcome to this forum, by the way. I've read your posts on other forums, and you're a welcome addition here. (But next time, bring Varmint with you!)
I have to admit I'm conflicted about what a luxury car is.
A. To some, it's a car that most people can't afford.
B. To some, it's a car that has top of the line quality, comfort, power, and features
C. To some, it's a car with an exclusive luxury badge regardless of price or quality.
I go mostly with "B", but I can understand "A". "C" is out of the question for me, as it reflects worship of a meaningless symbol.
My guess is that you could take a V8 Genesis, put BMW grill and badges inside and out, and invite a bunch of luxury car aficionados to private test drives. I bet most would readily accept it as a luxury car.
If the Genesis is not accepted as a luxury car, so what? If it has all the quality and comfort of the anointed luxury cars, why would most people even care?
I mean, you can get GPS Navigation in a Fit nowadays, and that used to be considered a luxury. $99 buys you a portable so now everyone's got one.
Quality? Nah, a cheap Yaris has great quality.
Comfort? Maybe...thing is, BMWs ride hard, my Sienna rides more comfortably than any BMW I've been in the past couple of years. Plus I think "Buick" when I read that word, not necessarily BMW or Mercedes.
Power? Again a maybe, as my minivan has 266hp. Insane.
Features? Moving target, as mentioned above.
Badge? Tough one. This is the precise debate in this thread. Some people are just badge snobs, so the VW Phaeton, which had characteristics A and B above, did not have C, and thus failed in our (shallow?) market.
I also agree with your "so what" comment, then again I've never owned a luxury car.
Advanced, light, compact, and their very own.
It shows Hyundai has strong in-house engineering capabilities and determination. Not many manufacturers worldwide have developed their own 6 or 8 speeds. Most outsource them or have joint development programs with other manufacturers.
Hyundai is doing everything first class, setting high goals, and destined to move up on the pecking order.
And Hyundai and Kia are very hard workers, they will keep working until they move up higher on the worldwide pecking order. The Long-Haul Warranty was an ingenious idea of theirs.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It wasn't a dangerous ideal for Toyota and Honda.
Hyundai for sale
No, there are no plans to rename this discussion to "Is There Room for Hyundai?"
So ... never mind?
By any chance, are you related to Emily Litella?
The Azera, Genesis, Entourage and Vera Cruz have all been dissed in Car and Driver comparison tests for sub-par, or even inadequate, suspension performance compared to the competition.
None of the former are marketed as performance cars, so maybe they can get away with it. If, however, it's not sorted out in the upcoming Genesis Coupe, they could have a tough time competing against V8 Mustangs with only a V6 and a suspension that's not topnotch.
About the "suspension problems". I haven't experienced them, but it's possible. Even the most brilliant engineers make mistakes. If you aren't making a few mistakes, you aren't learning. If you aren't learning, you can never achieve excellence.
If someone says "I bought a Mercedes, BMW, Lexus," etc, people will more likely associate that with a luxury car purchase, regardless of the model.
If someone says "I bought a Hyundai," that doesn't say luxury. It says many things, but luxury isn't 1 of them.
The Genesis is a nice car, but for Hyundai to be considered a luxury car maker I think they need several more models to choose from that are just as good as the Genesis.
I would agree. But, they are starting as Toyota did with the Lexus. When I bought my LS 400 in 1990, there were two models to choose from, the LS sedan and the SC sport coupe. Of course, Lexus also offered the dealer experience of separate facilities.
I do agree, however, with the assessment Hyundai itself is not a luxury brand, but the Genesis sedan is a luxury model in its own right.
What matters most is what the Genesis owners think, especially those who have previously owned so called luxury brands. If they say they're luxury cars, they are. It would be interesting to know the answer. I honestly don't know.
started with LS and ES when the nameplate started."
You are correct Joe. The first SC models were the 1992 models,
which of course were available in 1991 as a 1992 model.
The first LS400s were 1990s, available early in 1989.
In the coupes or SCs, there were two models, the SC300 3 Liter six cylinder and the
the SC400 4 L V8. Easily spotted by the rear spoiler. The SC 300 does not come
standard with a spoiler while all SC 400s have one as standard equipment.
Basically the four door LS 400 but in a coupe body. One way to get the six cylinder
motor in a true luxury car. However, there were no sixes for the LS four door sedan.
The 1990 Lexus ES250 was simply a Camry re badged as a Lexus but
of course trimmed to a higher luxury level. If I recall correctly, those
were priced some $10K higher than the top-of-the-line Camrys.
The ES300 came out a couple of years later and was a much better vehicle. Around the same time the up-sized Camry came out as well.
I do agree, however, with the assessment Hyundai itself is not a luxury brand, but the Genesis sedan is a luxury model in its own right.
Yes it is. It's nice car. Speaking of Lexus, I wonder why Hyundai didn't just create a luxury division like Toyota or Nissan?
Plus, they have Kia, and Hyundai is meant to slot above Kia.
I think Hyundai would be happy to fall between the value brands like Kia, and the luxury brands like Mercedes. Models like the Genesis will help shift their image slightly upscale, though still not quite luxury.
What matters most is what the Genesis owners think, especially those who have previously owned so called luxury brands. If they say they're luxury cars, they are. It would be interesting to know the answer. I honestly don't know.
I'm responding to the orignal poster's question. Was the original question open to Genesis owner's only? I think I missed that part?
Of course it matters to Genesis owners the most. They are the one's who will decide if the car is a success or not. It all comes down to units sold, not positive posts on a message board by non-owners. But the original post asked for everyone's opinion and I gave mine.
Like I said, I think te Genesis is a nice car. It's priced perfectly. Much higher and the car would suffer the same fate as the Phaeton. I think they would've been better off creating a luxury division and launching the Genesis there.
Plus, they have Kia, and Hyundai is meant to slot above Kia.
I think Hyundai would be happy to fall between the value brands like Kia, and the luxury brands like Mercedes. Models like the Genesis will help shift their image slightly upscale, though still not quite luxury.
That makes sense. I honestly don't know what market they are going for, but whoever it is, they better watch out! It's a very nice car at an unbelievable price.
I'll be curious to see sales numbers compared to the like priced competition.