Money can buy experience... e.g. Mercedes "buying" some of Hyundai's expertise recently, hiring away a lead of the Genesis program. Hyundai could buy expertise in customer service.
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service.
I thought there was some consensus that Hyundai's problem now isn't the product, which is very competitive in its class, but dealerships and customer service. Easy example: take the plastic bits and metal or wood trims used in the Gen's cabin and compare them next to a Lexus GS or ES (luxury standard).
That has been done by multiple 3rd parties, and Genesis compares quite well there, e.g. raves about the leather dash and overall quality of the car. CR for one has rated the Genesis over Lexus in its class.
e.g. raves about the leather dash and overall quality of the car. CR for one has rated the Genesis over Lexus in its class.
Have you done it yourself? I have, and I say Lexus still got better materials. However I do admit the leather seats are nice. The leather dash looks greats and makes great color and design combination for the cabin, yes. Does it feel upscale? Nope, how about the seats? yes they do.
I thought there was some consensus that Hyundai's problem now isn't the product, which is very competitive in its class, but dealerships and customer service.
The consensus was based on Genesis being positioned in the near luxo class. In this class the car is more than just competitive, it's just plain good. However some people here (you know who you are) insist that the cars are just as good as higher level luxury cars. Not yet.
Money can buy experience... e.g. Mercedes "buying" some of Hyundai's expertise recently, hiring away a lead of the Genesis program. Hyundai could buy expertise in customer service.
Good idea to speed up the improvements and establish the brand quicker.
It's not as easy as it used to be, as standards keep going up. Acura is one good example that failed to reach higher than entry level luxury (TL rules, RL tanked). Compared to Hyundai, Acura has superior customer service (excellent even), dealership experience excels, and it has stellar image. Yet it failed to compete in the upper luxury class. Why? Because Acura didn't make the right car up to standard. Materialwise it's excellent, but everything else from engineering to technology and reliability lacked severely.
Productwise: by luxury standards, Ssangyong Chairman is the true Korean luxury car. Looks horrific outside, but inside you get soft leather and real wood everywhere. The other is Hyundai's own Equus, but it's dead and scheduled for replacement next yr.
Yes, like I said, horrific outside, bland inside but the materials are first-rate (I've been in one). Real wood, not the colored plastic like inside the Genesis, and a nice one btw. The soft leather was smooth enough, even appropriate for a BMW.
Looks like a Korean copy of an older S-Class Mercedes.
You're not mistaken, that's because: 1) The car was designed on 90s MB S-class platform. 2) The Chairman use MB's 7G-tronic and 4matic system. 3) Since the 90s Ssangyong engineers and technician received education and training at Stuttgart. 4) MB was directly involved in Ssangyong's product development in the 90s.
Yes I have. IMO there is not a significant difference between the interior quality of the ES/GS or Genesis. I do think the Genesis feels "upscale." We'll just have to disagree on that one.
IMO the main problem with Acura is that their cars aren't worth the price premium over a Honda. The Accord EX-L for example is a very nice car. How can Acura justify a huge price premium over the Accord for what is a very similar car? The TSX for another example is a nice little car, but way overpriced for what you get--a relatively cramped, low-powered car for about the same price as a much larger, nicer, more powerful Genesis V6 or several other cars. A year-old Certified 3-Series or a new TSX? Wow, tough choice there! :P
That thing makes the old W140 S-class look like a beautiful exotic. No understanding of styling in that barge. A car for the "chairman" of a sweatshop, maybe.
Funny you should say that. The only guy I know who owns a Genesis is the owner of a sweatshop factory in a Philadelphia suburb filled with illegal immigrant labor from all over the globe and whose own citizenship status can be called into question. We did the physical inventory there and couldn't find anybody to help us who could speak English. Fortunately, we had a girl with us who could speak fluent Spanish.
back in the later 80s, Toyota had already established itself as a manufacturer of really fine cars. So much so that when Toyota decided to establish a separate luxury brand to compete with those German brands, there were lines that formed among the existing Toyota dealers to fork over the franchise fees (not cheap BTW) and spend the money to build rather well appointed dealerships. The net effect of this was to minimize those brand startup costs. Car folks that opted instead for Infiniti were not nearly so lucky - partially because Nissan did not have the brand reputation that Toyota did at the time AND because the the Q was no LS., and further the other Infiniti offerings were nothing more then rebadged Nissans. Mazda, of course, never got out of the gate, and later had a tough time selling some relatively good cars as Mazdas. VW, of course, had one of the most monumental gaffes with the Phaeton, and failing to understand that nobody in their right mind would spend that kind of money on a 'VW'. Hyundai should learn from all this - and do what it can to establish 'Genesis' as a brand not necessarily just a specific model. - even to the point of requiring their existing Hyundai dealers to put up some fancy 'Genesis' signs on the front of their buildings and lots ,upgrading showrooms , hiring some real salespeople (over the age of 25) that not only know their products, also understand how to kiss a little booty, and lastly understand that if what they are selling is truly good then those sales don't necessarily have to be bought with cheap prices, gimmicky warranties etc.. Don't believe that it is too late for them to do this, the Azera sits as a perfectly logical 'ES' type competitor, and the Veracruz a logical RX/MDX/FX competitor - with only a little massaging in both cases. The Genesis remains what it is, a screaming value that may not get its just rewards, simply because of that italicized 'H" and because Hyundai's reputation, improving as it may be, is still well short of what those Japanese mfgrs. enjoyed 20 years ago.
Well, Honda started it all with Acura, though Acura doesn't currently have the cachet that Lexus has. I thought the early Q45 was a pretty nice car and I heard it's just as good, if not better, than the LS400. They can be had for a song today. The other Infiniti models, however, were kind of weak. The ES300 was nothing but a Camry Deluxe but Lexus somehow pulled it off better than Infiniti did.
whether the Q45 was (or is) the equal to the LS is certainly debatable in any quantitative sense, but the LS was the one that was the blueprint, perhaps because Toyota had a superior reputation to Nissan at that time. Remember also that Lexus also defined the whole over-pampered customer thing, and it was Toyota (Lexus) that established those standards, procedures and business practices - a difficult thing to do with somebody that just invested millions to buy a franchise and a dealership.. Hyundai could even go so far as establishing a different set of service standards and even segregate their waiting and showroom areas into 'first class' and 'tourist' class' Might work. History tells us that Hyundai will have a helluva time being accepted into any 'luxury' market, make it 'Genesis' however, and maybe it can be judged for exactly what it is - or isn't.
Don't believe that it is too late for them to do this,...
Of course it isn't too late. Maybe Hyundai is taking a page from Toyota's book: introduce a luxury, RWD sedan (and soon a hot sports coupe) under the existing brand, get buyers used to paying $33k+ for a Hyundai car and build a reputation for being able to make a car like that, then spin off a luxury brand at the right time. Sound familiar? It should.
But just as Toyota didn't immediately sell its luxury and luxo-sport cars under a separate brand, it's not a mistake for Hyundai to wait awhile before it goes down that (very expensive) path.
To equate price with quality is a common heuristic, nevertheless often a sucker mistake. It may sound harsh but has more truth than calling Hyundai advocates poseurs.
On your more substantial points, 1) Lexus is quality product, MB and Audi are not. 2) I agree Hyundai needs better dealerships but the best customer service for car after purchase is no need for service. 3) Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down. There's residual image value in the old brands but the sucker baggage is getting heavier.
Hyundai is following Lexus' steps in its ascension. Sadly, for some folks, quality is never good enough--they have to throw money away to complete satisfaction.
#1684 of 1699 Re: [m4d_cow] by backy Jan 15, 2009 (8:38 am)
Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 15, 2009 7:55 am) Hmm, you bring up a possible strategy for Hyundai: cut back on product quality and warranty support, and use the savings to fund improvements in dealerships: nicer waiting rooms, white lab coats for all the techs, espresso machines, leather sofas etc. That would put Hyundai more on par with the likes of MB, maybe give Hyundai a fighting chance in the luxury sedan market, yes?
Genesis is a very nice & apparently successful vehicle. However, to play Devil's advocate:
1) Lexus is a quality product, MB & Audi are not.
Lexus, on the whole, is more reliable, but reliability does not equate quality. MB & Audi are bolted together just as well, if not better, than Lexus. + they are more driver orientated cars than the high quality 'toasters' of Lexus. The the quality of materials (not so much electronics) exceed Lexus by a good margin. Sit in them & if you don't get it, you don't get it. More on that later...
2) No need for service...
Again, that's great if one wants to drive a living room couch around. Driver's cars, performance orientated, will always require more service. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this thinking as that's how most consumers will vote with their wallet. But, if one is inclined to truly enjoy driving, one must abandon the living room. Performance = more maintenance. Always had, always will.
3) Hyundai's rep is going up as quickly as MB is going down.
Only in the CR world. Like it or not, Hyundai will not command now, or any time soon, the respect of the Luxury brands at the country club. That may sound bad, but suck it up, that's the real 'Luxury' world.
RE: 'the more on that later'....Luxury cars are considered disposable. 3 years, warranties up, whatever, time to move on. Luxury car buyers care not about 10 year reliability. Status #1, which Hyundai has a hard road ahead to achieve, & if one loves to 'drive', driving characteristics, which involves more than driving in a straight line.
Believe it or not, I like the Genesis, but is there room for it now in the Lux division? Maybe going against Lexus, but not the Germans.....YET!
Excellent! Your post demonstrates a deep understanding of this debate about luxury cars, and reveals the arguments pro and con with an amazing economy of words.
Someone said in an earlier post that perhaps Hyundai should sacrifice the 10 year warranty for better dealerships. Your #2 blew that right out of the water. Another post said Genesis prices should be higher! Eh?
I've been wandering through life believing lower prices and longer warranties were better! I guess I have a lot to learn about luxury cars!
Sadly, for some folks, quality is never good enough--they have to throw money away to complete satisfaction.
That line is one for the ages. Consider it stolen.
Someone said in an earlier post that perhaps Hyundai should sacrifice the 10 year warranty for better dealerships. Your #2 blew that right out of the water. Another post said Genesis prices should be higher! Eh?
Keep in mind there is some serious leg-pullin' going on here.
No matter what a person drives, if they don't drive something with the ca. 1991 swoopy H, they are stupid! Or posers! All hail Hyundai! The best in all regards! The standard of the world!
"Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down"
I want some of what you're smoking, it's been a long week.
Keep in mind there is some serious leg-pullin' going on here.
I did get a chuckle out of it, but I don't think it was meant to be funny:
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service. It has to be all of them, not 1 or 2. Yes Hyundai can cut down the 10yr warranty a bit and allocate the money elsewhere.
No matter what a person drives, if they don't drive something with the ca. 1991 swoopy H, they are stupid! Or posers! All hail Hyundai! The best in all regards! The standard of the world!
"Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down"
I want some of what you're smoking, it's been a long week.
Not at all. Comfortable & reliable w/'competent' handling is the Lexus way. Not a bad thing to aspire to at all for the Genesis. Chance to take a dent out of their sales. Prestige is going to take much longer. That, & 'competent' handling is the living room approach. Hyundai & perhaps yourself need to catch up on 1st class handling & performance combined will take a tick off reliability. If they can be the first to show otherwise, kudos! Until then, I feel pretty caught up. & remember, I am rooting for them though it may not come across that way...
are you referring to the DrFill that used to join us here on the Edmunds' debates?
DrFill? Is that you?
Because he used to always put down Hyundai endlessly. And most of his arguments didn't hold water, either. He was tirelessly pro-ToyLexus, Acura, blah-blah-barfy-bag ad-naseum to the end of the rainbow numbers, as I recall.
Originally I thought Genesis got in at the wrong time(Bad economy etc..), but perhaps bad economy maybe helping in some way. If economy was very good, previous Luxury car owners may not even consider Genesis right now! Right now for many people, saving $200-300 a month in car payment is quite attractive compare to a few years ago when economy was better.
Personally I'd never Buy European Luxury cars due to high maintenance cost after the warranty runs out. I'd possibly lease them,but not buy. I'd either buy or lease Japanese Lux cars depending on offers(good interest rate etc.)
Hyundai Genesis looks like a pretty good start. If it's successful in 2 years then maybe they can decide to have a separate division like Lexus or Infiniti. If they can have 2 or 3 more successful model, then it may take over Acura as the 3rd Asian Luxury car maker. Only time will tell.
Hyundai Genesis looks like a pretty good start. If it's successful in 2 years then maybe they can decide to have a separate division like Lexus or Infiniti. If they can have 2 or 3 more successful model, then it may take over Acura as the 3rd Asian Luxury car maker. Only time will tell
Why does everyone think Hyundai should spin off a luxury division? Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have broken through the barriers that necessitated that original marketing strategy. Americans respect Aisian brands now, and have lost respect for American brands.
Besides, to spin off a new division would be: (A) An admission that the proud Hyundai name is not equal to the competition and never will be, or (B) Hyundai thinks American car buyers are so ignorant they believe a badge change makes a difference in the actual cars.
I truly think Hyundai has made the decision to go all out to elevate their reputation to match that of Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus. (I believe their sales have already surpassed Nissan in some segments)
A lot of company and bank CEOs ride in those back in Korea. I'd never call it a Korean S-class, but a good comfortable car deserving a luxury status more than the Genesis.
Seems like many missed my point here. I like the Genesis, and think its a great upscale car. But its not enough to challenge the true luxury players just yet. Certainly even Hyundai knows this point, as they're currently preparing the real luxury car (Hyundai Equus) scheduled to be sold in US in a few years from now.
Toyota made some great sacrifices when introduced the Lexus brand. It actually operated on loss for the first few years, all for the sake of image and customer trust. Did they offer 10 yr warranty? Nope, but they offered free pickup of problematic cars at home, and returned the car to your driveway after it's fixed. Red carpet, that is. Do the same and Hyundai may get the luxury image fast like hell. 10 yr warranty does not insure a great car. A great service otoh, makes up for the flaws of early products.
Hmm, you bring up a possible strategy for Hyundai: cut back on product quality and warranty support, and use the savings to fund improvements in dealerships: nicer waiting rooms, white lab coats for all the techs, espresso machines, leather sofas etc. That would put Hyundai more on par with the likes of MB, maybe give Hyundai a fighting chance in the luxury sedan market, yes?
Wha??? Jozz, you need to check back on older posts because I clearly didn't say this. I responded to this posted by someone else. But this:
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service. It has to be all of them, not 1 or 2. Yes Hyundai can cut down the 10yr warranty a bit and allocate the money elsewhere
Nah, it's not me. I don't embrace Toyota, I have no problem with modern Hyundai products, and you won't find a post putting them down - they are competent cars. I simply find amusement in the fanboys who seem to think the Genesis makes endgame for the competition, and anyone who doesn't buy Korean is either stupid or a poser.
I simply find amusement in the fanboys who seem to think the Genesis makes endgame for the competition, and anyone who doesn't buy Korean is either stupid or a poser.
That would depend on why one may have bought their luxury car, and didn't buy Genesis. There are right and wrong reasons.
I don't think there are any Genesis fanboys here. The only time anyone sticks up for Genesis is when someone spews untrue and unfair criticism. Keep everything realistic, and you get a fair conversation.
... and anyone who doesn't buy Korean is either stupid or a poser.
Actually I think you are the only one here who has said anything like that. Rather than dive into inaccurate hyperbole like that, why not strive for a civil and on-topic discussion, free of baseless accusations about what someone thinks or doesn't think?
With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.
This post (#1672) was a pretty rude one.
I simply find amusement in the fanboys who seem to think the Genesis makes endgame for the competition, and anyone who doesn't buy Korean is either stupid or a poser.
IMO there's a need to rephrase this a bit to: "... and anyone who doesn't buy Genesis and choose something else is either stupid or poseur." Noone said this directly, but there are some in this forum who implied so.
Once again, you are the only one here who has said any such thing. Disagreeing with someone's opinion regarding a decision a company has made is far, far removed from saying that a company is incapable of an illogical or erroneous decisions. Personally, I've mentioned several of Hyundai's decisions that I think are illogical/erroneous within Town Hall.
Again, I ask for less wild accusation and hyperbole and more thoughtful and civil discussion here.
To make things clear, this is a collection of my thoughts on Hyundai:
1) If I'm looking for a regular sedan, were it not for the bland face I'd put a Hyundai on the very top of my list. Blame Honda for creating such a cool looking Civic. Midsize, now that's another story.
2) I personally find Hyundai's customer service one of the best in regular class. Actually, I think only Honda has served me better so far. As for luxury class, I can think of at least 5 brands that treated me better as a luxury brand customer.
3) I believe Ateixeira summed it up best: Hyundai Genesis is an upscale car (premium, near-luxury, you name it) and a great one at that. For a real luxury Hyundai, wait for the next gen Equus.
4) If I were in the market for an upscale sedan, the Genesis would actually be on top of my list. Chrysler 300c was my first choice, but the company's gloomy future crossed it off my list. Commitment not to buy anything from a bailout taker (read: taxpayers' money grubber) is another reason.
5) Given Hyundai's progress so far, I do have faith that one day Hyundai will be a considerable player in the luxury class. Not now, but in the future, yes.
6) I just recommended Genesis coupe to a coworker looking for a "sporty car" for his daughter. Good looks, reliable and awesome warranty. She'll be able to drive it even after she graduate from college, looking at the long term.
Let me know if I'm not being fair enough. :shades:
Once again, you are the only one here who has said any such thing.
Backy, no offense, but have you really looked at post 1672? #1572 (Jozz): With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.
So I assume you consider this post not hyperbolic and rude??????????
I don't have a Mercedes or Lexus, but my parents have both and by saying this he just called my parents stupid suckers. Personally I'm offended, but I choose not to react to maintain civilized discussions around here.
I don't see anything in 1672 that says that Hyundai is incapable of making an illogical or erroneous decision. Do you? That is what I was referring to in the post you replied to.
I agree the tone of 1672 is rude and has no place here. But it doesn't say that anyone who doesn't buy a Hyundai is a sucker. That is putting words (rude words) into someone's mouth.
You are wise to not react to drivel like 1672. I was trying not to react to statements like "Hyundai is incapable of making an illogical or erroneous decision", but after seeing it several times in the past couple of days, I thought enough is enough. I appreciate your focus on keeping the discussion civilized.
and it appears that Jozz was reacting to a post by lemko where he was putting down those that are too cheap to buy a MB or BMW and are reaching for something that really they shouldn't have or something.
And the Car of the Year Award for the Genesis sedan means nothing to these perpetual Hyundai bashers? I think praise for Hyundai exceeds just the ordinary "well, they're better than they were in '85 with the Candian-built Excel."
They've come further than that and they haven't abandoned the Long-Haul Warranty, and this first attempt at a luxury sedan also exceeds just "kind of a good job" with that pup, too, IMO. Talk about a huge case of automotive denial by the Hyundai bashers.
Hyperbole isn't uncivilized. Some people are too sensitive. This reminds me of Ford vs Chevy or Lexus vs Germans...but now it is Hyundai vs everyone else
I questioned Hyundai strategy and was met with ardent disbelief. My apologies for insinuating the swoopy H could do wrong, and I am sorry if I hurt any feelings :shades:
Yes, that's right. The subject of this discussion is Hyundai vs. everyone else--in the luxury market.
You seem surprised that not everyone agreed with your opinions about Hyundai's badge etc. That's the way it is in these discussions. Don't expect everyone to agree with you. Especially, don't expect people to agree with you when you twist their points of view.
Speaking of badges, something to ponder: which badge looks more upscale: the italicized H, or the italicized L?
The L never made it to a 1991 Corolla with a vinyl interior and weak engine. But even that Corolla was a world better than what wore the first swoopy H, as chances are it is still around...
Yes, you are in every position to lecture me on what to expect...Hyundai can do no wrong, that's all I need to remember.
You keep insisting Hyundai can do no wrong nor make any illogical or erroneous decisions. I don't happen to agree with you on that, but if you keep repeating it enough just maybe you'll sway more people here to that point of view. But if that is what you are trying to do, you might back up that assertion with some evidence regarding how Hyundai has never made a mistake or an illogical/erroneous decision. That might be hard to do, since there's some subjectivity in that point of view, but you could always try if you want.
My goodness. Companies make mistakes, NO ONE is immune to it.
Hyundai-Kia made some real blunders in the past, and still do. Need example? Kia Borrego and Hyundai Entourage.
Mighty Toyota is making huge mistake with product quality and fit-finish. Check out the current Camry for example.
VW..... one word: Phaeton. Nuff said.
BMW made one of the greatest legendary mistakes ever: i(diot)-Drive, which didn't work, still isn't working well, and I doubt will ever get much better.
D3..... uhh, no comment, the name speaks for itself.
Here are some points that make me still have doubts about Hyundai's readiness for luxury battle now.
1) If I'm not mistaken I did recommend Hyundai to cut back the 10 yr warranty in exchange for improvement in customer service, well there's a good reason. Some people here think that a massive 10 yr warranty will attract more customers. In regular class? Yes, in luxury class? Wrong. I can testify on this being a luxury brand customer myself. Most customers in this class expect red carpet treatment and luxurious materials more than they appreciate warranties. 10 yr. warranty means little to them as most will ditch their cars in 3-4 years in exchange for something newer. This is the mindset of the luxury shoppers, most of them that is.
2) The only times buyers forgive downrated materials in their cars are: a) when the products are focused on performance b) the materials still look expensive c) the brand is American, or d) the brand is a niche brand that has massive image appeal.
(a) refers to BMW and Infiniti with their clear mission that leans toward sports and performance. This is not a path Hyundai seems to take. (b) refers to Acura TL, a path that works (until Acura destryed it by itself) but this path loses it's appeal in the upper luxury segment. (c) refers to Cadillac. (d), try Hummer and Porsche.
None of these exceptions will make a good choice for Hyundai. Hyundai, from what I see is aiming for the "traditional luxury" path crowded with competitors like Lexus, Cadillac, MB, Audi, Jaguar, etc. So for now, patience is the best virtue.
I admit I'm not pro-Hyundai, but I'm not against Hyundai in any way either. I see potential, think of it as a bottle of wine, which will reach full potential as it age. Open it too quicly and all you'll get is a lousy half-made wine.
Do you think the 10-year warranty would be more useful in the luxury market if it were transferrable? For example, that might help resale values, making the car more attractive to people who plan to lease it or sell it after just a few years.
One thing I am surprised about is that HMA has apparently not put in place strict standards for customer service (or enforce them) for dealerships that want to carry the Genesis. I thought that was the plan. If it was implemented, there seems to be holes in how it was implemented, based on reports I've seen from some Genesis owners. That would be a fairly low-cost measure for HMA to take--much less expensive than a separate brand and dealer network.
I am still having trouble seeing the issue with the quality of materials in the Genesis sedan. They seemed competitive to me, and the professional reviews I've read seem to agree with that, with some quibbles. One thing I think we need to keep in mind that this is a car that starts at $33,000--not $50k or $60k.
Interesting to have the Entourage in there as mistake. I test drove one once and it was great. I was very impressed with it. Apparently the reliability of them is pretty bad and their sales are low enough to qualify as a Saab model....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Apparently the reliability of them is pretty bad and their sales are low enough to qualify as a Saab model....
The Entourage's mistake is exactly as you pointed out. I didn't further explain it in my post.
One thing I am surprised about is that HMA has apparently not put in place strict standards for customer service (or enforce them) for dealerships that want to carry the Genesis.
Backy, like you said it'd be a cheap brilliant idea to improve customer service and gather experience. However the problem lies there, it was planned but never done. Local Hyundai here sells a few Gens but they treat the customers the same way they treat Accent buyers.
One thing I think we need to keep in mind that this is a car that starts at $33,000--not $50k or $60k.
Yes, the price issue. Well if Hyundai wish to compete in the upper luxury segment, a $50k car is pretty much the norm. I'm pointing out the car quality issue to those who think that the Genesis is capable to fight Lexus GS and the rest of upper luxury class. If you're not one of them you can just ignore it.
Now for the price Hyundai competes straight ahead with the ES. It's gonna be hard to convince the Lexus shoppers with the current customer service Hyundai gives them. Meanwhile, others seem to be enticed already, shown by the strong sales so far.
There was a Canadian-built Sonata manufactured in Bromont, Quebec until the plant was closed in 1994. All Excels were built at the Ulsan Plant in South Korea.
I am one of those who agrees with folks such as the editors of Edmunds.com that the Genesis can and does compete, and quite well, with the Lexus GS. Recall that when Edmunds.com did a head-to-head of the Genesis with the GS 350, it was the Genesis that came out on top.
Comments
Money can buy experience... e.g. Mercedes "buying" some of Hyundai's expertise recently, hiring away a lead of the Genesis program. Hyundai could buy expertise in customer service.
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service.
I thought there was some consensus that Hyundai's problem now isn't the product, which is very competitive in its class, but dealerships and customer service.
Easy example: take the plastic bits and metal or wood trims used in the Gen's cabin and compare them next to a Lexus GS or ES (luxury standard).
That has been done by multiple 3rd parties, and Genesis compares quite well there, e.g. raves about the leather dash and overall quality of the car. CR for one has rated the Genesis over Lexus in its class.
Have you done it yourself? I have, and I say Lexus still got better materials. However I do admit the leather seats are nice. The leather dash looks greats and makes great color and design combination for the cabin, yes. Does it feel upscale? Nope, how about the seats? yes they do.
I thought there was some consensus that Hyundai's problem now isn't the product, which is very competitive in its class, but dealerships and customer service.
The consensus was based on Genesis being positioned in the near luxo class. In this class the car is more than just competitive, it's just plain good. However some people here (you know who you are) insist that the cars are just as good as higher level luxury cars. Not yet.
Money can buy experience... e.g. Mercedes "buying" some of Hyundai's expertise recently, hiring away a lead of the Genesis program. Hyundai could buy expertise in customer service.
Good idea to speed up the improvements and establish the brand quicker.
It's not as easy as it used to be, as standards keep going up. Acura is one good example that failed to reach higher than entry level luxury (TL rules, RL tanked).
Compared to Hyundai, Acura has superior customer service (excellent even), dealership experience excels, and it has stellar image. Yet it failed to compete in the upper luxury class. Why? Because Acura didn't make the right car up to standard. Materialwise it's excellent, but everything else from engineering to technology and reliability lacked severely.
Productwise: by luxury standards, Ssangyong Chairman is the true Korean luxury car. Looks horrific outside, but inside you get soft leather and real wood everywhere. The other is Hyundai's own Equus, but it's dead and scheduled for replacement next yr.
Looks like a Korean copy of an older S-Class Mercedes.
Looks like a Korean copy of an older S-Class Mercedes.
You're not mistaken, that's because:
1) The car was designed on 90s MB S-class platform.
2) The Chairman use MB's 7G-tronic and 4matic system.
3) Since the 90s Ssangyong engineers and technician received education and training at Stuttgart.
4) MB was directly involved in Ssangyong's product development in the 90s.
Yes I have. IMO there is not a significant difference between the interior quality of the ES/GS or Genesis. I do think the Genesis feels "upscale." We'll just have to disagree on that one.
IMO the main problem with Acura is that their cars aren't worth the price premium over a Honda. The Accord EX-L for example is a very nice car. How can Acura justify a huge price premium over the Accord for what is a very similar car? The TSX for another example is a nice little car, but way overpriced for what you get--a relatively cramped, low-powered car for about the same price as a much larger, nicer, more powerful Genesis V6 or several other cars. A year-old Certified 3-Series or a new TSX? Wow, tough choice there! :P
Hyundai should learn from all this - and do what it can to establish 'Genesis' as a brand not necessarily just a specific model. - even to the point of requiring their existing Hyundai dealers to put up some fancy 'Genesis' signs on the front of their buildings and lots ,upgrading showrooms , hiring some real salespeople (over the age of 25) that not only know their products, also understand how to kiss a little booty, and lastly understand that if what they are selling is truly good then those sales don't necessarily have to be bought with cheap prices, gimmicky warranties etc..
Don't believe that it is too late for them to do this, the Azera sits as a perfectly logical 'ES' type competitor, and the Veracruz a logical RX/MDX/FX competitor - with only a little massaging in both cases. The Genesis remains what it is, a screaming value that may not get its just rewards, simply because of that italicized 'H" and because Hyundai's reputation, improving as it may be, is still well short of what those Japanese mfgrs. enjoyed 20 years ago.
Remember also that Lexus also defined the whole over-pampered customer thing, and it was Toyota (Lexus) that established those standards, procedures and business practices - a difficult thing to do with somebody that just invested millions to buy a franchise and a dealership..
Hyundai could even go so far as establishing a different set of service standards and even segregate their waiting and showroom areas into 'first class' and 'tourist' class' Might work. History tells us that Hyundai will have a helluva time being accepted into any 'luxury' market, make it 'Genesis' however, and maybe it can be judged for exactly what it is - or isn't.
Of course it isn't too late. Maybe Hyundai is taking a page from Toyota's book: introduce a luxury, RWD sedan (and soon a hot sports coupe) under the existing brand, get buyers used to paying $33k+ for a Hyundai car and build a reputation for being able to make a car like that, then spin off a luxury brand at the right time. Sound familiar? It should.
But just as Toyota didn't immediately sell its luxury and luxo-sport cars under a separate brand, it's not a mistake for Hyundai to wait awhile before it goes down that (very expensive) path.
On your more substantial points,
1) Lexus is quality product, MB and Audi are not.
2) I agree Hyundai needs better dealerships but the best customer service for car after purchase is no need for service.
3) Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down. There's residual image value in the old brands but the sucker baggage is getting heavier.
Hyundai is following Lexus' steps in its ascension. Sadly, for some folks, quality is never good enough--they have to throw money away to complete satisfaction.
#1684 of 1699
Re: [m4d_cow] by backy
Jan 15, 2009 (8:38 am)
Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 15, 2009 7:55 am)
Hmm, you bring up a possible strategy for Hyundai: cut back on product quality and warranty support, and use the savings to fund improvements in dealerships: nicer waiting rooms, white lab coats for all the techs, espresso machines, leather sofas etc. That would put Hyundai more on par with the likes of MB, maybe give Hyundai a fighting chance in the luxury sedan market, yes?
Genesis is a very nice & apparently successful vehicle. However, to play Devil's advocate:
1) Lexus is a quality product, MB & Audi are not.
Lexus, on the whole, is more reliable, but reliability does not equate quality. MB & Audi are bolted together just as well, if not better, than Lexus. + they are more driver orientated cars than the high quality 'toasters' of Lexus. The the quality of materials (not so much electronics) exceed Lexus by a good margin. Sit in them & if you don't get it, you don't get it. More on that later...
2) No need for service...
Again, that's great if one wants to drive a living room couch around. Driver's cars, performance orientated, will always require more service. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this thinking as that's how most consumers will vote with their wallet. But, if one is inclined to truly enjoy driving, one must abandon the living room. Performance = more maintenance. Always had, always will.
3) Hyundai's rep is going up as quickly as MB is going down.
Only in the CR world. Like it or not, Hyundai will not command now, or any time soon, the respect of the Luxury brands at the country club. That may sound bad, but suck it up, that's the real 'Luxury' world.
RE: 'the more on that later'....Luxury cars are considered disposable. 3 years, warranties up, whatever, time to move on. Luxury car buyers care not about 10 year reliability. Status #1, which Hyundai has a hard road ahead to achieve, & if one loves to 'drive', driving characteristics, which involves more than driving in a straight line.
Believe it or not, I like the Genesis, but is there room for it now in the Lux division? Maybe going against Lexus, but not the Germans.....YET!
Someone said in an earlier post that perhaps Hyundai should sacrifice the 10 year warranty for better dealerships. Your #2 blew that right out of the water. Another post said Genesis prices should be higher! Eh?
I've been wandering through life believing lower prices and longer warranties were better! I guess I have a lot to learn about luxury cars!
Sadly, for some folks, quality is never good enough--they have to throw money away to complete satisfaction.
That line is one for the ages. Consider it stolen.
Keep in mind there is some serious leg-pullin' going on here.
You're implying that it's impossible for a car to be comfortable and reliable yet handle competently. You have some serious catching up to do!
"Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down"
I want some of what you're smoking, it's been a long week.
I did get a chuckle out of it, but I don't think it was meant to be funny:
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service. It has to be all of them, not 1 or 2. Yes Hyundai can cut down the 10yr warranty a bit and allocate the money elsewhere.
"Hyundai's reputation is moving up as fast as MB's going down"
I want some of what you're smoking, it's been a long week.
DrFill? Is that you? :sick:
DrFill? Is that you?
Because he used to always put down Hyundai endlessly. And most of his arguments didn't hold water, either. He was tirelessly pro-ToyLexus, Acura, blah-blah-barfy-bag ad-naseum to the end of the rainbow numbers, as I recall.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Maybe it really is DrFill in disguise. LOL
Originally I thought Genesis got in at the wrong time(Bad economy etc..), but
perhaps bad economy maybe helping in some way. If economy was very good,
previous Luxury car owners may not even consider Genesis right now!
Right now for many people, saving $200-300 a month in car payment is quite
attractive compare to a few years ago when economy was better.
Personally I'd never Buy European Luxury cars due to high maintenance cost
after the warranty runs out. I'd possibly lease them,but not buy. I'd either buy
or lease Japanese Lux cars depending on offers(good interest rate etc.)
Hyundai Genesis looks like a pretty good start. If it's successful in 2 years then
maybe they can decide to have a separate division like Lexus or Infiniti. If they
can have 2 or 3 more successful model, then it may take over Acura as the 3rd
Asian Luxury car maker. Only time will tell.
maybe they can decide to have a separate division like Lexus or Infiniti. If they
can have 2 or 3 more successful model, then it may take over Acura as the 3rd
Asian Luxury car maker. Only time will tell
Why does everyone think Hyundai should spin off a luxury division? Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have broken through the barriers that necessitated that original marketing strategy. Americans respect Aisian brands now, and have lost respect for American brands.
Besides, to spin off a new division would be: (A) An admission that the proud Hyundai name is not equal to the competition and never will be, or (B) Hyundai thinks American car buyers are so ignorant they believe a badge change makes a difference in the actual cars.
I truly think Hyundai has made the decision to go all out to elevate their reputation to match that of Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus. (I believe their sales have already surpassed Nissan in some segments)
Fair enough.
A car for the "chairman" of a sweatshop, maybe.
A lot of company and bank CEOs ride in those back in Korea. I'd never call it a Korean S-class, but a good comfortable car deserving a luxury status more than the Genesis.
Seems like many missed my point here. I like the Genesis, and think its a great upscale car. But its not enough to challenge the true luxury players just yet. Certainly even Hyundai knows this point, as they're currently preparing the real luxury car (Hyundai Equus) scheduled to be sold in US in a few years from now.
Toyota made some great sacrifices when introduced the Lexus brand. It actually operated on loss for the first few years, all for the sake of image and customer trust. Did they offer 10 yr warranty? Nope, but they offered free pickup of problematic cars at home, and returned the car to your driveway after it's fixed. Red carpet, that is. Do the same and Hyundai may get the luxury image fast like hell.
10 yr warranty does not insure a great car. A great service otoh, makes up for the flaws of early products.
Wha??? Jozz, you need to check back on older posts because I clearly didn't say this. I responded to this posted by someone else. But this:
What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service. It has to be all of them, not 1 or 2. Yes Hyundai can cut down the 10yr warranty a bit and allocate the money elsewhere
Yeah I did say so.
Btw, who's Dr Frill?????
That would depend on why one may have bought their luxury car, and didn't buy Genesis. There are right and wrong reasons.
I don't think there are any Genesis fanboys here. The only time anyone sticks up for Genesis is when someone spews untrue and unfair criticism. Keep everything realistic, and you get a fair conversation.
Actually I think you are the only one here who has said anything like that. Rather than dive into inaccurate hyperbole like that, why not strive for a civil and on-topic discussion, free of baseless accusations about what someone thinks or doesn't think?
With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.
This post (#1672) was a pretty rude one.
I simply find amusement in the fanboys who seem to think the Genesis makes endgame for the competition, and anyone who doesn't buy Korean is either stupid or a poser.
IMO there's a need to rephrase this a bit to: "... and anyone who doesn't buy Genesis and choose something else is either stupid or poseur." Noone said this directly, but there are some in this forum who implied so.
I never claimed Genesis fanboys, just those who think Hyundai is incapable of illogical or erroneous decisions today.
Again, I ask for less wild accusation and hyperbole and more thoughtful and civil discussion here.
1) If I'm looking for a regular sedan, were it not for the bland face I'd put a Hyundai on the very top of my list. Blame Honda for creating such a cool looking Civic. Midsize, now that's another story.
2) I personally find Hyundai's customer service one of the best in regular class. Actually, I think only Honda has served me better so far. As for luxury class, I can think of at least 5 brands that treated me better as a luxury brand customer.
3) I believe Ateixeira summed it up best: Hyundai Genesis is an upscale car (premium, near-luxury, you name it) and a great one at that. For a real luxury Hyundai, wait for the next gen Equus.
4) If I were in the market for an upscale sedan, the Genesis would actually be on top of my list. Chrysler 300c was my first choice, but the company's gloomy future crossed it off my list. Commitment not to buy anything from a bailout taker (read: taxpayers' money grubber) is another reason.
5) Given Hyundai's progress so far, I do have faith that one day Hyundai will be a considerable player in the luxury class. Not now, but in the future, yes.
6) I just recommended Genesis coupe to a coworker looking for a "sporty car" for his daughter. Good looks, reliable and awesome warranty. She'll be able to drive it even after she graduate from college, looking at the long term.
Let me know if I'm not being fair enough. :shades:
Backy, no offense, but have you really looked at post 1672?
#1572 (Jozz): With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.
So I assume you consider this post not hyperbolic and rude??????????
I don't have a Mercedes or Lexus, but my parents have both and by saying this he just called my parents stupid suckers.
Personally I'm offended, but I choose not to react to maintain civilized discussions around here.
I agree the tone of 1672 is rude and has no place here. But it doesn't say that anyone who doesn't buy a Hyundai is a sucker. That is putting words (rude words) into someone's mouth.
You are wise to not react to drivel like 1672. I was trying not to react to statements like "Hyundai is incapable of making an illogical or erroneous decision", but after seeing it several times in the past couple of days, I thought enough is enough. I appreciate your focus on keeping the discussion civilized.
And the Car of the Year Award for the Genesis sedan means nothing to these perpetual Hyundai bashers? I think praise for Hyundai exceeds just the ordinary "well, they're better than they were in '85 with the Candian-built Excel."
They've come further than that and they haven't abandoned the Long-Haul Warranty, and this first attempt at a luxury sedan also exceeds just "kind of a good job" with that pup, too, IMO. Talk about a huge case of automotive denial by the Hyundai bashers.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I questioned Hyundai strategy and was met with ardent disbelief. My apologies for insinuating the swoopy H could do wrong, and I am sorry if I hurt any feelings :shades:
You seem surprised that not everyone agreed with your opinions about Hyundai's badge etc. That's the way it is in these discussions. Don't expect everyone to agree with you. Especially, don't expect people to agree with you when you twist their points of view.
Speaking of badges, something to ponder: which badge looks more upscale: the italicized H, or the italicized L?
Yes, you are in every position to lecture me on what to expect...Hyundai can do no wrong, that's all I need to remember.
Or... we could move on?
Hyundai-Kia made some real blunders in the past, and still do. Need example? Kia Borrego and Hyundai Entourage.
Mighty Toyota is making huge mistake with product quality and fit-finish. Check out the current Camry for example.
VW..... one word: Phaeton. Nuff said.
BMW made one of the greatest legendary mistakes ever: i(diot)-Drive, which didn't work, still isn't working well, and I doubt will ever get much better.
D3..... uhh, no comment, the name speaks for itself.
:shades:
1)
If I'm not mistaken I did recommend Hyundai to cut back the 10 yr warranty in exchange for improvement in customer service, well there's a good reason. Some people here think that a massive 10 yr warranty will attract more customers. In regular class? Yes, in luxury class? Wrong.
I can testify on this being a luxury brand customer myself. Most customers in this class expect red carpet treatment and luxurious materials more than they appreciate warranties. 10 yr. warranty means little to them as most will ditch their cars in 3-4 years in exchange for something newer. This is the mindset of the luxury shoppers, most of them that is.
2)
The only times buyers forgive downrated materials in their cars are:
a) when the products are focused on performance
b) the materials still look expensive
c) the brand is American, or
d) the brand is a niche brand that has massive image appeal.
(a) refers to BMW and Infiniti with their clear mission that leans toward sports and performance. This is not a path Hyundai seems to take. (b) refers to Acura TL, a path that works (until Acura destryed it by itself) but this path loses it's appeal in the upper luxury segment. (c) refers to Cadillac. (d), try Hummer and Porsche.
None of these exceptions will make a good choice for Hyundai. Hyundai, from what I see is aiming for the "traditional luxury" path crowded with competitors like Lexus, Cadillac, MB, Audi, Jaguar, etc. So for now, patience is the best virtue.
I admit I'm not pro-Hyundai, but I'm not against Hyundai in any way either. I see potential, think of it as a bottle of wine, which will reach full potential as it age. Open it too quicly and all you'll get is a lousy half-made wine.
One thing I am surprised about is that HMA has apparently not put in place strict standards for customer service (or enforce them) for dealerships that want to carry the Genesis. I thought that was the plan. If it was implemented, there seems to be holes in how it was implemented, based on reports I've seen from some Genesis owners. That would be a fairly low-cost measure for HMA to take--much less expensive than a separate brand and dealer network.
I am still having trouble seeing the issue with the quality of materials in the Genesis sedan. They seemed competitive to me, and the professional reviews I've read seem to agree with that, with some quibbles. One thing I think we need to keep in mind that this is a car that starts at $33,000--not $50k or $60k.
The Entourage's mistake is exactly as you pointed out. I didn't further explain it in my post.
One thing I am surprised about is that HMA has apparently not put in place strict standards for customer service (or enforce them) for dealerships that want to carry the Genesis.
Backy, like you said it'd be a cheap brilliant idea to improve customer service and gather experience. However the problem lies there, it was planned but never done. Local Hyundai here sells a few Gens but they treat the customers the same way they treat Accent buyers.
One thing I think we need to keep in mind that this is a car that starts at $33,000--not $50k or $60k.
Yes, the price issue. Well if Hyundai wish to compete in the upper luxury segment, a $50k car is pretty much the norm. I'm pointing out the car quality issue to those who think that the Genesis is capable to fight Lexus GS and the rest of upper luxury class. If you're not one of them you can just ignore it.
Now for the price Hyundai competes straight ahead with the ES. It's gonna be hard to convince the Lexus shoppers with the current customer service Hyundai gives them. Meanwhile, others seem to be enticed already, shown by the strong sales so far.
There was a Canadian-built Sonata manufactured in Bromont, Quebec until the plant was closed in 1994. All Excels were built at the Ulsan Plant in South Korea.