Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

fintail

The GS is now such a pointless unloved model, that I would pick the H over it...give it some better badges and maybe a better styled grille, and it probably has no drawbacks over the GS at all. GS resale seems pretty mediocre at best too - so the Genesis might even beat it there.

Hmmm...GS...GenesiS....the names are even similar...

houdini1

Boy, does history ever repeat itself !!

It wasn't that long ago that on another forum here several posters talked about how Lexus just could not compete with the "true" luxury brands (German) because it was nothing but a gussied up Toyota.

Many of the same folks who were bashing Toyota and Lexus just a few short months ago are now either driving a Toyota/Lexus or planning to buy one for their next car. They used to say that luxury car buyers did not care about reliability... now they are dumping their German cars because the maintenance cost is just too high.

This continual putting down of Hyundai is almost exactly what happened with Lexus. Look who is laughing now !!

Upstarts and game changers like Lexus and Hyundai will force other companies to improve their products...and all of us who love cars will be the better for it.

rockshocka1

Agree that more competion is good for all buyers.But, one of the consequences of the current economy will see the Lux category contract & the one's 'buying' more car than they should, will decrease in numbers(a plus as far as I'm concerned). Lux cars, as I mentioned before, are disposable. If one is worried where their car will be 4 years down the road, then one should be playing in a different class. Lux is, & by definition, a luxury. Bargain hunters need not apply.

Smart shoppers, more power to ya, but bottom line for Lux is exclusivity...

houdini1

Luxury is relative. It means different things to different people. Some people would not be caught dead in an Audi, BWN, Lexus, or Mercedes. They have to have a Rolls or at least a Bentley. Those and a few others are your true luxury cars.

captain2

It wasn't that long ago that on another forum here several posters talked about how Lexus just could not compete with the "true" luxury brands (German) because it was nothing but a gussied up Toyota
Forums like this - in 1989? :confuse: The LS400 came out in 1990 the Acura Legend 2 years earlier. As lemko mentioned ,Acura was the first to do this albeit on a lower level than what Toyota attempted with Lexus. To this day, I don't believe tthat you'll get much argument that this is still the case - a Lexus is perceived to be ' better' than an Acura. There were, however, some naysayers as you mention - Although the Legend had some common DNA with the Accord, the LS was anything but a 'gussied up' Toyota, it was (and still is) honestly comparable to those larger German sedans that it was meant to compete with at the time.
Hyundai is attempting to do the same with the Genesis, with some success BUT with some very important differences:
1) Hyundai has not yet established the same sort of the quality reputation that Toyota and Honda both had when they launched their luxury divisions. Meaning the fact that the Lexus was built by Toyota and/or the Acura by Honda was an asset not a liabiliity, a perception soon reinforced by the cars themselves. The name Hyundai still equates to cheap - rightly or wrongly, the Excel still lives on in infamy.
2) The Lexus dealer is not a place that one could also find the cheapest econoboxes available - those with credit scores lower than their body temperatures need not apply. The Hyundai dealer does not deal with the same buyer demographic as the true luxury dealers.

In short, the name Hyundai and 'luxury', are contradiction in terms for not only what they are selling ( price leaders) but also who they are selling (the lower ends of the socio-economic ladder). No, no, no - this doesn't mean that many folks that are buying Hyundais couldn't afford substantially more, but it does mean that if you are selling sub $10k new cars, for at least a good portion of those buyers that is about all those buyers can likely afford. For anybody, including Hyundai, to produce any vehicle that might otherwise meet many of those definitions that most of us would agree would qualify a product as 'luxury' is not the point - or the problem.

Create a proper 'Genesis' dealer, improve those all important 'butt kissing'
customer services and possibly even raise the prices then Hyundai can gain some better acceptance into the 'luxury' ranks - they have made a credible first effort, even if they don't really understand how to market it.

m4d_cow

I am one of those who agrees with folks such as the editors of Edmunds.com that the Genesis can and does compete, and quite well, with the Lexus GS. Recall that when Edmunds.com did a head-to-head of the Genesis with the GS 350, it was the Genesis that came out on top.

Hmm, I personally disagree with Edmunds' particular article, so I guess we're just gonna have to disagree on that one

houdini1

Forums like this - in 1989?

Not 1989. When I said a few months ago I meant a year or so...2008. So almost 20 years after Lexus came out people were still saying it was a rung below Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Right here on Edmunds. In short, in order to be a luxury car it had to come from Germany. That was their criteria. Makes about as much sense as yours. :confuse:

backy

The name Hyundai still equates to cheap - rightly or wrongly, the Excel still lives on in infamy.

There was an interesting news story on TV last night, about how it's been found that about 80% of buyers do research--on the Web etc.--before making a purchase. This finding was not just applicable to cars, but to purchases in general (probably not chewing gum though). So marketeers are steering their efforts on that kind of buying behavior.

The reason I bring it up is that it is more and more unlikely that someone interested in buying a $30k+ vehicle today will base their decision on anecdotes and Jay Leno jokes from many years ago. It's more likely they will do a lot of research to find out whether the product is something they want to buy.

I am sure there are some people--including at least a few who participate in this discussion--who still think of Hyundai as a company that turns out poor quality vehicles, based on cars they made 15-20 years ago. They are obviously not in the target market for the Genesis. The Genesis will be considered by buyers who are willing to do some research, go out and actually drive the car, and make an informed decision based on current data. And also who are not driven by the need to impress their friends with a badge like the 3-pointed star or an italisized L.

louiswei

In short, in order to be a luxury car it had to come from Germany. That was their criteria. Makes about as much sense as yours.

Houdini, I don't think you are comparing apples to apples.

People who say Lexus is still a rung below MB, BMW and Audi (personally I can understand the first two but definitely not the last one) think in order to be a luxury car it had to come from Germany, IMO that's BS.

People who are arguing whether or not the Genesis is a luxury car are saying in order to be a luxury car it can't be sold under the same roof with a $10k econobox. IMO that's one valid argument whether you agree or not.

captain2

link?.
Although the Lexuses are generally 'tuned' softer than the usual German offerings (ever driven an IS350?) as they pretty much have always been , I have never heard anybody claim it was anything but better (in terms of reliability and/or fit & finish) than the BMWs/MBs of the world. IMO, this was true in 1990, and is still true today. Not to mention 'user friendliness'., a significant failing in Germany these days, and overcomplication/overapplication of all these new technologies that seem (as they logically would) to effect the ultimate reliabilities of them.
The GS (which I guess is what you must be talking about) is perhaps the first and only Lexus vehicle to review relatively poorly in those 20 years, and is likely the exception to a rather enviable track record.
The Genesis tests I read all usually cite even more of a softness (or sloppiness) than in the Lexus - something I would contend that more Americans would find more agreeable - preferring a boulevard ride to a sports sedan's tautness.
.

houdini1

Try the Luxury Lounge forum and go back 12 to 18 months. Discussions got very heated over there.

I am merely being the reporter and personally have owned Lexus cars for many years. I currently have an LX 470 and an LS 430. I never believed the argument that a luxury car had to come from Germany, if fact I took the other side, but many did argue that.

The GS? I drove one for a couple of weeks when another car I owned at the time was being repainted and I really liked it. My wife loved it and wanted to buy it. Actually it would have made her a great car but the timing wasn't right. The only problem I had with it was that it was a little snug on the inside.

I raised the issue because what many are saying about the Genesis was also said about Lexus.

houdini1

Hey Lou how's it going?

I agree that it is BS. I don't believe it either but many do or at least used to.

Right now I would have to agree that the Genesis is not a luxury car but I hope that some day it will be. It is a great car and I hope they continue to build on it. Dollar for dollar it is an outstanding bargain. I certainly would not mind owning one right now. Have you driven one?

m4d_cow

I see a huge difference between Lexus and Hyundai.

When Toyota introduced the Lexus brand, Toyota already earned worldwide reputation as a luxury carmaker with their Crown lineup. Lexus' early products were merely rebadged Toyota Crowns. Productwise those in the know understood exactly what Lexus was. Hyundai doesnt have any of the above yet.

Second, Lexus realized it's status as a newcomer back then, and focused on customer care to increase brand image and public faith. Hyundai had a great plan to start (allowing only dealers who meet the standards to sell Genesis), but never actually did it, yet... I hope...

Third, is one of the most important: over the years the bar keeps rising. What used to pass as a Lexus or even MB can barely pass for a Camry nowadays.

My parents actually bought one of the early Lexus, a 1993 LS400 to be exact. They had faith in Lexus, but have yet to feel the same about Hyundai.

Thus Hyundai's pace can't be as fast as Lexus used to be. Slower, but doesn't mean it'll never get there. Just wait and see.

captain2

80% of buyers do research--on the Web etc
but not necessarily Hyundai buyers - you really think that 80% of those folks buying $10k cars out there use the internet or even own a PC? Naw, they buy a car based on payment size and/or finding someone that will float them the credit.
Could easily be true overall though - but I would still bet that CR is the single most influential source for the consumer.
The recent ranking by CR of the Genesis at the top in an 'upscale' sedan category should serve it well especially if it proves relatively reliable (another thing that CR values highly) . I'm not really saying that the Genesis can never be a 'luxury' car, but I am saying that Hyundai is doing it wrong if that is what they want it to be.

houdini1

I agree that there are a lot of differences, but also many similarities. If you haven't driven the Genesis please go and give it a spin. I promise it will be an eye opener. Just remember, don't expect a BMW...think more ES or GS.

backy

I was following you (not in total agreement, but following you) up until the last paragraph. In some ways, Hyundai's pace has been faster than Lexus'. Consider for example, how many unique designs did Lexus have in its first year of existence? You claim zero. I thought the LS was unique to Lexus, but you said it was just a rebadged Crown. Then there was the ES, which we know was a gussied-up Camry (and for all intents and purposes still is). Hyundai however will have two unique designs in its first year of selling Genesis cars: the sedan, and the coupe. So they are moving much faster than Lexus there.

They are also moving faster than Lexus in the acclaim they are receiving for their vehicles. In a few months, the sedan has racked up NACOTY, CR's top spot for $30k-45k cars, MTCOTY runner-up, and other awards. The coupe has garnered critical praise although isn't for sale yet, so we'll see on that one. Lexus? The LS was well-received, but the ES didn't win any contests (except maybe for the nicest Camry on the planet).

Customer service and amenities... Hyundai is behind there. They seem to have focused on product vs. the service aspect. Time will tell if that was a good decision.

backy

Look a little more around Town Hall, especially the "prices paid" discussions. You'll see buyers of all kinds of vehicles, from the luxo-cruisers down to Accents and low-cost used cars, using the Internet to find the right car and save as much money as they can in the process.

Anyway, we are not talking about $10k cars here, but cars that cost $30-40k+.

m4d_cow

I agree that there are a lot of differences, but also many similarities.

Yeah I know what you mean, Houdini. The so called... errmm... purists... zealots... maybe bigots is actually the right word, who insist that luxury = Germany. Well, honestly that's just dumb, they deliberately missed the lowly MB Aclass, Audi A2, and BMW 1series hatchback.

Like you I also think luxury cars can come up from anywhere as long as they meet the standard that I have to admit, first set by the German (Daimler, MB) and British (Rolls, Bentley, Jaguar) companies.

First, however, doesn't mean always. Noone knows the future :shades:

m4d_cow

I never believed the argument that a luxury car had to come from Germany, if fact I took the other side, but many did argue that.

IMO no mass production car company is exclusive to the luxury class. If they're looking for strictly luxury brands they need to check out the ultra-luxury segment, which never did, never do, and I guess never will touch the lower segment. Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maserati, Maybach, and... umm... that's all, a very short list isn't it?

captain2

Anyway, we are not talking about $10k cars here, but cars that cost $30-40k+.
Granted, but the fact that Hyundai does sell $10k cars should have a really negative impact on their acceptance in the 'luxury' side of things - the subject of this forum.
Another thing that figures into this IMO is a condition which I'll call Buick-itis - or that the consumer is more prone to influenced by a 'total' discount, a large rebate etc etc . They go into a Hyundai dealer (or a Buick dealer) expecting big discounts, large rebates etc. etc. - something else that I think is decidedly not 'luxury' As strange and illogical as it may seem, those luxury buyers expect and want to pay more - because with that usually comes exclusivity..

backy

LOL! Have you seen the huge discounts/rebates offered by many luxury marques? Not much exclusivity there! No wonder they aren't selling well--they're not expensive enough! Maybe those companies should have RAISED prices on their luxury cars instead of offering huge discounts and bargain lease rates.

As far as "exclusivity" goes, the Genesis is one of the most exclusive cars in the luxury class. How many BMWs and MBs and Lexii and Infinitis do you see on the street every day? How many Genesis sedans?

captain2

if the mass market vehicles (those Buicks, Chevys, Fords and yes even Toyotas and Hondas (to a slightly lesser extent) are being sold at numbers around about 20% (or more) off MSRP these days, I think you'll find those 'luxo' brands discounting at half of that - current year models of course. The gross dollars discount may be the same but also the MSRP is double. If a BMW/Lexus etc. dealer really sold his cars at 'Detroit style' discounts, I would dare say that there would be some folks in Bavaria and/or Japan quite POed about it.
Not talking about exclusivity in numbers (although that helps) , I'm talking about exclusivity that comes with high prices and unattainability. A $35k Genesis is something that pretty much anybody with a decent job could possibly afford, make it $50 or 60k for something out of the 'luxury' end, perhaps a different story.

louiswei

As far as "exclusivity" goes, the Genesis is one of the most exclusive cars in the luxury class. How many BMWs and MBs and Lexii and Infinitis do you see on the street every day? How many Genesis sedans?

Personally if I am Hyundai I would want that to be changed ASAP.

The Genesis is supposed to be a popular luxury sedan for Hyundai (to name a few: the 5er, 3er, C-class, E-class and IS) which people can see it everyday on the street so the brand image could go up and bring profit to the company. At least last I checked, I don't think Hyundai was intended to compete with the Maserati Quattroporte in the "exclusivity" department...

backy

So in other words, if someone buys a two-year-old luxury sedan for $20-30k, they do not own a luxury car because they didn't pay enough for it? Also... how does one tell that someone paid $50-60k for a new luxury car, or $20-30k for looks-like-new "previously owned" luxury car? I don't recall seeing bumper stickers ala "I paid FULL PRICE for this luxury car! I know you are jealous!"

I've seen discounts of around 20% on luxury models in my local area. Sometimes the discount is buried in subsidized lease rates. Those included BMWs, Lexii, and Infinitis. Especially great deals on 5 Series and Ms. Pretty darn good on Gs also. Not sure why people in Bavaria et. al. would be POed about what a U.S. dealer charges for their cars... the manufacturer gets its cut regardless.

backy

Personally if I am Hyundai I would want that to be changed ASAP.

They are working hard on it. Genesis is already outselling more established competitors. But those cars have a big head start. Since the Genesis has been available only for a few months, it isn't on the street in big numbers yet. Not quite Maserati levels of exclusivity, but not a see-one-on-every-corner car like Bimmers and Lexii and Infinitis. Not yet, anyway.

captain2

They are working hard on it
you bet they are - one of the most advertised and otherwise promoted new car introductions in recent memory - and now they go so far as to 'guarantee' my job for a year if I would just sign on the dotted line today. A really aggressive program that might just lead to a glut of used Genesis' on the market, thereby hurting whatever resale value they might have next year. Hope they 'sell' a lot of cars - they might just end up paying for it later.
You can't get off equating rarity with exclusivity. I live in a small City of about 6 million, and still havcen't seen a Genesis on the road - but it will never be an exclusive anything, too cheap (reasonably priced, if you prefer) for that....

joe97

Lexus' early products were merely rebadged Toyota Crowns

Huh?

Hyundai had a great plan to start (allowing only dealers who meet the standards to sell Genesis), but never actually did it, yet... I hope...

To my knowledge, that's still the case. Not every dealer has the Genesis.

What used to pass as a Lexus or even MB can barely pass for a Camry nowadays.

And how is that different in Hyundai's case? Hyundai can be passed for a Kia???

Thus Hyundai's pace can't be as fast as Lexus used to be. Slower,

The Genesis has been on sale for less than a year, while the Lexus brand overall has been in existence for some 20 years. Nice to see your conclusion already.

Similarily, Toyota started selling cars way earlier than Hyundai, say what you want, but Hyundai's progress in recent years, especially, can't be ignored. I read somewhere Hyundai went from the #11 automaker in the world 6 years ago to now the #5 automaker in the world.

As for a luxury marque, it was decided by Hyundai to not market the Genesis in North America with a separate marque. The initial investment by estimation, would have taken some 12+ years just to breakeven. Looking at it now and in the near future, Hyundai certainly made the right decision by not going with a separate marque.

Awards and recongition of the product aside, a lot of people don't realize the arrival of the Genesis family has and would further improve upon the brand equity and perception. It's really a win-win, whereas the luxury marque doesn't gurantee much.

joe97

Hyundai can do nothing right in your mind. Of course, Toyota gets a pass for upping its factory incentives way way up and the failed/annoying "Saved by Zero" commercial.

backy

... and now they go so far as to 'guarantee' my job for a year if I would just sign on the dotted line today.

Uh... no. But that statement explains a lot of your other statements here.

A really aggressive program that might just lead to a glut of used Genesis' on the market, thereby hurting whatever resale value they might have next year.

Let's look at that, shall we? Someone loses his/her job. They own or lease a Genesis. Having trouble finding another job. Having trouble making payments. So they turn the car in, walk away. That's it. Now consider another buyer. They bought or leased something like a Lexus GS or Infiniti M or whatnot. They too lose their job. But their payments are a lot higher than on the Genesis. Do you suppose that will stop them from dumping the car to eliminate the payment? No, that's what they'll do, and are probably more likely to do it since the payment is more of a strain on them (assuming equal financial situations). But they'll take a financial bath doing it (since this is during the first year of ownership). They might not even get to sell it--they might have it repossessed, and ruin their credit in the process.

How does this keep other used luxury cars from flooding the market compared to the Genesis? Also, what about the upside of the Hyundai Assurance priogram? Do you suppose it might help increase Genesis sales because buyers won't be as worried about the implications of losing their income?

joe97

Captain2 contends the Genesis is too cheap, as if there is a magical line that distinctly separates between the luxury and mainstream categories; yet models with similar pricing range like the 1er, per Captain, is a luxury car.

rockshocka1

Sounds more to me like people over-extending themselves. Luxury buyers shouldn't face that. If one is, they are too far in the deep end of the pool. Swim & your own risk.

backy

We could debate ad infinitum what people should or should not do, the effect of recent times on family savings and other assets, the decline of wage in the past several years, and the ability for people to pay cash for a car--even a used car. The fact is, most car purchases today are not cash purchases. Manufacturers have to sell to that market.

If you are in a position to buy your cars for cash and meet all your other financial obligations, have zero debt, and have zero worry of losing your income, realize that you are a very, very fortunate person in today's world. Count your blessings.

rockshocka1

That, should & of it self define the purchase. Overextend & reap what she sow...

m4d_cow

Lexus' early products were merely rebadged Toyota Crowns
Huh?

What do you mean "huh", Joe? Oh yes, I made a slight mistake, early models were rebadged Toyota Crowns and then Toyota Celsiors outside US. Until very recently (the L-finesse line) almost all Lexus products are rebadged Toyotas, the only exception back then was the SC430.

Before the L-finesse line:
RX? Toyota Harrier, GX? Toyota Prado, LX? LandCruiser, GS? Aristo, IS? Altezza, ES? Camry, LS? Celsior, SC400? Toyota Soarer. All these were sold around the world as Toyotas.

Not every dealer has the Genesis.

Yet the dealers licensed to sell genesis still don't give the customers any different service from the ones buying Accents or Elantras.

As for a luxury marque, it was decided by Hyundai to not market the Genesis in North America with a separate marque. The initial investment by estimation, would have taken some 12+ years just to breakeven.

Yes, that's because Hyundai positioned the Genesis as an upscale sedan, basically what you'd call near-luxury, not a luxury sedan.

Like it or not, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury class, in the end it'll need a separate brand. That's just the way it is in US. Go to Asia and you'll see people proudly driving Toyota Crowns or Nissan Fugas (aka Infiniti M), try doing that in US. This is the perception that's build over the decades is hard if not impossible to change.

joe97

I understand the early Lexus products were Toyota rebadges but you had specifically said they were rebadged Toyota Crowns. By the way, I still see Toyota rebadges in today's Lexus

Anyway, back to the Genesis:

Yes, that's because Hyundai positioned the Genesis as an upscale sedan, basically what you'd call near-luxury, not a luxury sedan.

Hyundai called out Lexus GS, Infiniti M, to name a few, as the compeititors of the Genesis, right, that was just for kicks. If the Hyundai Genesis is not a luxury sedan, then a lot of these so-called "luxury sedans" should not be called luxury sedans.

Yet the dealers licensed to sell genesis still don't give the customers any different service from the ones buying Accents or Elantras.

You can prove this on every Hyundai dealer right?

Like it or not, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury class, in the end it'll need a separate brand. That's just the way it is in US. Go to Asia and you'll see people proudly driving Toyota Crowns or Nissan Fugas (aka Infiniti M), try doing that in US. This is the perception that's build over the decades is hard if not impossible to change.

So Americans driving mainstream cars here aren't proud of what they drive? FWIW, I'd be proud driving a Hyundai Genesis (since you don't think it's a luxury car).

houdini1

What do you mean "huh", Joe? Oh yes, I made a slight mistake, early models were rebadged Toyota Crowns and then Toyota Celsiors outside US. Until very recently (the L-finesse line) almost all Lexus products are rebadged Toyotas, the only exception back then was the SC430.

Before the L-finesse line:
RX? Toyota Harrier, GX? Toyota Prado, LX? LandCruiser, GS? Aristo, IS? Altezza, ES? Camry, LS? Celsior, SC400? Toyota Soarer. All these were sold around the world as Toyotas.

Wow, that says a lot about just how good those lowly early Toyotas actually were !!

captain2

the Assurance program is apparently already helping Hyundai sales, read somewhere that sales were actually up in January. What I could forsee the problem being is that a program like this might just get a few folks to pull the trigger on a purchase they couldn't ordinarily afford. HMAC can have all the credit standards they want (I imagine they would if they are sticking their neck out this far) but something as catastrophic as job loss is often unanticipated. My contention is if the 'security blanket' offered by something like the 'Assurance' program moves more people to buy Hyundai cars (the upside that I'm sure Hyundai is hoping for) then ultimately there are more Hyundais returned if the economy really goes into the hopper.Therefore more used Hyundais on the market, and more reasons for those legendary Hyundai resale values to suffer. Of course, the same can happen with other makes, but is this really good for Hyundai, when they are a higher percentage of these 'returns'? This is all speculation anyway, may never happen, our saviour (?) is being inaugurated today
To poor ole backy out there - IMO, of course - Hyundai has done a number of things right lately not the least of which happens to be called the Genesis. Is there room for them in the 'luxury market' - don't believe so, not they way they are doing it, but also not because of what the product actually is.
There is some talk here about the Equus being Hyundai's next step up, which is fine - but don't try to sell it as a Hyundai, sell it in the same place as a Hyundai, and at a price that would even relate to a Hyundai branded product - or they may have the same perception problem I'm contending the Genesis has.

m4d_cow

"I understand the early Lexus products were Toyota rebadges but you had specifically said they were rebadged Toyota Crowns"

I can see where the misunderstanding come from, when I said early days I was refering to the very first few models in the Lexus lineup (think 89-93), which were all Toyota Crowns (Celsior used to be part of the Crown lineup)

"If the Hyundai Genesis is not a luxury sedan, then a lot of these so-called "luxury sedans" should not be called luxury sedans."

Funny, Hyundai position the Genesis in its own lineup as an upscale car. The Equus is their real luxury car, based on Hyundai's own pecking order.

You can prove this on every Hyundai dealer right?

Honestly I can't. However at this point I expect every Hyundai dealer selling genesis to have a proper customer care if Hyundai is serious about entering the luxury brand. The current standard is acceptable in upscale class, not so in the luxury class.

Fairly speaking, BMW offers customer service worthy of a Hyundai but not for a BMW :P :P I have no data, but ask every BMW owner you meet and I dare bet many of them will complain about the poor service (snooty, arrogant people who seem indifferent to their customers). I know that, because I used to be their customer.

houdini1

I have owned Mercedes, BMWs and Lexus. The ONLY one of these luxury dealerships where customers receive top notch attention and service is Lexus. The other two are no better than, and sometimes worse than, Hyundai and Kia.

Acura is also much better than BMW or Mercedes.

backy

You already took the wind out of your argument that the Hyundai Assurance program is a bad idea (i.e. will result in a flood of used Genesis cars hitting the market) by pointing out that HMAC will have stringent credit standards for Hyundai buyers, since they are sticking their neck out in offering to take back cars less than 1 year old if the owner loses his/her income.

If you can prove that the Assurance program will result in a significantly higher percentage of Genesis cars dumped into the used market than other luxury sedans, please do, otherwise I think your comments are idle speculation.

Now, I can think of one way in which there will be lots of Genesis sedans flooding the used market: all (or most) Genesis owners will read your last post, realize that Hyundai and the Genesis have no place in the luxury market, say "OMG, what have I done?!?", and dump their cars no matter what the cost, so they can buy a REAL luxury car.

joe97

Funny, Hyundai position the Genesis in its own lineup as an upscale car. The Equus is their real luxury car, based on Hyundai's own pecking order.

Well, the Equus is for the home market only, so for the North American market, the Genesis is its flagship.

I was saying, the Genesis, specifically, the car itself, is a luxury vehicle.

joe97

Equus isn't coming to the North American market. As I said in the previous post, it's for the home market only.

The Genesis has been on the market for less than a year, so I think it's a little premature to draw any conclusions at this point. Heck, how long has it taken for a nameplate like Lexus to become established?

FWIW, I do like how Hyundai is managing its brand, every day it seems the S. Korean company brings something surprising to the table. The Genesis is obviously the focal point of the brand, but other products in the portfolio also fulfill their own merits. Bottom line, the Genesis right now, IMHO, is one of the better luxury cars on the market.

m4d_cow

I was saying, the Genesis, specifically, the car itself, is a luxury vehicle.

Personally, productwise Hyundai needs to make drastic changes inside to convince me that it's a luxury car. The only times I forgive somewhat downrated materials are:
a) The car is focused on performance
b) The car is a niche brand
As Genesis belongs in neither group then I can't accept Gen as luxury car. Put it this way I even put Acura TL (widely considered luxury car) as an entry level luxury car.

Personally, I don't care for the badge. Like I said (and I'd rephrase it so you don't misunderstand), in Asia people drive Crowns as luxury car with pride, and they can look MB and BMW drivers in the eye, saying "I drive a $60k Toyota Crown", and noone will laugh.

As for Genesis itself, well I guess we'll just have to disagree w/ each other there, if that's ok with you.

captain2

how long has it taken for a nameplate like Lexus to become established
which is kind of my point with my original thread - 'remembering how Lexus did it'. If memory serves me correctly (and sometimes it doesn't) that circa 1990 Lexus was established pretty much immediately as a 'luxury' nameplate - not only because the LS was so darn good but also because it wasn't called a Toyota (certainly not a 'luxury' brand in this country) , because it was sold at palatial new dealerships that put many BMW/MB dealers to shame, and at $40k (or so) it was still priced appropriately.
Which, of course, is the difference here - Hyundai may have the first part of this equation pretty well covered but obviously has chosen to ignore the other two. For my part I'll grant you that the Genesis is certainly a luxurious upscale car and a screaming 'value' but in that respect I don't think it is a whole lot different that several cars I can think of, including Hyundai's own Azera.
When it is sold as something else, at a different place, and probably at a higher price THEN it could very easily become a 'luxury' car' . This (and the time it will take to change some 'Korean' car perceptions), likely a tougher thing to do than producing the car in the first place.

bobad

Personally, I don't care for the badge. Like I said (and I'd rephrase it so you don't misunderstand), in Asia people drive Crowns as luxury car with pride, and they can look MB and BMW drivers in the eye, saying "I drive a $60k Toyota Crown", and noone will laugh.

There seems to be a thread of commonality among those who say Genesis is not a luxury car, even though it stacks up bolt for bolt and nut for nut with "true" luxury cars:

Some of us buy luxury because we want to show the world they can afford a fantastic, luxurious machine. If Genesis makes it possible for many more people to afford that level of quality and luxury, it makes their great luxury car seem common.(UGGGGGH!!!) I guess Genesis causes "luxury car deflation", to coin a phrase.

If you feel that way, it's OK with me. I don't care what car you buy, I respect your decision as long as you bought it for the right reasons. If you buy an Audi or BMW because you think it has more value or is more reliable than a Genesis, I think you're a sucker. If you buy Audi or BMW because you prefer the styling, and/or the badge is really that important to you, I have no criticism.

louiswei

If I go buy exactly the same fabrics like Armani uses and make a suit that looks EXACTLY like an Armani but that still doesn't make my suit an Armani. At least no one would wear that for the red carpet...

Would it be a nice suit? You betcha. Are you getting better values for it? Sure. Is it an Armani? Don't fool yourself.

Last I checked this thread is not about who's a sucker or are the BMWs, MBs and Lexuses worth the premium. This thread is about whether or not Hyundai can be viewed as a luxury brand in today's image-conscious society.

captain2

If you buy an Audi or BMW because you think it has more value or is more reliable than a Genesis, I think you're a sucker
there are those that might just say that 'value' just might be more than a dollar and cents thing - or,in fact, perceive a value in driving a BMW (or whatever) that does not have anything to do with the fact that they may have paid 15 or 20K more for something than a spec sheet comparison would tell you they needed to. Maybe they simply drive that BMW because that they find some 'value' in driving what they perceive as the best. They may be right, they may be wrong, really doesn't matter much - but they are hardly 'suckers'!
Reliability has nothing to do with 'luxury' and is in fact NOT something usually associated comes with it - with all that mechanical complexity and sophistication something (reliabililty) will suffer. The Elantra should be a more 'reliable' car than any Genesis ever thought of being.

stever

I'm not sure I buy your Armani analogy. If it's the same material, then it'll drape the same. Assuming you have the same cut just about any seamstress can sew it together. One sewn by a good seamstress would last as long as the brand name suit. I bet you couldn't tell the difference without checking the label (and that could be counterfeit).

lemko

Heck, maybe they just thought the BMW or Audi was nicer looking?

louiswei

I bet you couldn't tell the difference without checking the label (and that could be counterfeit).

Guess what, that's the whole point of my Armani analogy so apparently you do get it.

Yes it is an Armani without the label but just because it doesn't have the label it won't be showing up on red carpet.

Superficial? Yes. Image-conscious? Yes. Reality? You betcha!