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Comments
And then removing the badge. :shades:
Question. Why? Or why not? Have you seen some of those ghastly outfits some celebrities wear in the name of high fashion?! And some just wear off the rack outfits and look fantastic! How do you really know or tell? Food for thought.
Those buying Audi and BMW with value in mind should get their heads checked, although buying Audi as a value alternative over BMW or MB used to be justifiable (not anymore with current prices).
I'll take the nameless suit anytime. It may not be an Armani, but people's jaws still drop when you tell them your suit is tailor made. :shades:
Why does a nameplate has to dictate if a car is a luxury car or not? Is Phaeton a luxury car? Is 1er a luxury car? Is A-Class a luxury car? Is Isetta a luxury car?
Of course, you would say anything under the typical luxury namplate as a luxury car, and any mainstream nameplate not as such.
So if we are not defining 'luxury' as some collection of options (or doodads as I like to call them) where does that leave the other cars you mention? Entry level for sure because of the prices and possibly also 'luxury' simply because of what they are. The new 1 series, for example, a reincarnation of those 2002s etc. that started the whole ''sports sedan' thing - and true machines. BMWs have always leaned heavy toward the engineering side of things, and less toward the doodad side of things. I would consider the 135 specifically a 'luxury' car not because of doodad availability (they can be quite spartan) but because there is a 'luxury ' level of engineering and sophistication in the car. The MB A series I don't know enough about, but I am not real fond of the lower ends of the C series, so might instead look at the 'A' as nothing more than a feeble effort by MB to gain some market share, at the expense of some of that 'luxury' they do have available in their other models. The ES is definitely entry level and probably even only 'upscale', a car that I would imagine might just make owners of most of the other Lexus models quite 'uncomfortable'.
All of this is real hard to comprehend to somebody that looks at the doodad for -the-buck ratio that is inevitably quite high in Korean cars. If you judge any type of car strictly by those kind of standards though, it'll be tough to buy anything that ISN"T Korean. Can Hyundai 'fix' all of this, probably - but not with what it is sold as, where it is sold, what it is sold for, and what it is sold with. IMO. I know its tough but try to remember that this has nothing to really to do with the car itself.
The poor Genesis could be the first car in the world that offers gold plated window switches, built-in home theatre systems with IMAX, does 12s quarters, gets 100 mpg, corners at 3gs, never ever breaks, AND has Kleenex dispensers that deploy when the car hears you sniffle. All of that and more, and let's even double the price, and as a 'Hyundai' it still will not be a 'luxury' car . Sure would sell well though. I do like the IMAX idea - maybe a phone call to Ulsan? Been there, right on the SE coast, relatively rugged terrain, and lots of fog (and smog)
No, we're not going to revise the meaning of the word "value".
I said clearly in my post that there are right and wrong reasons for buying a luxury car. (or any car, for that matter). If you buy a BMW, Lexus, or Genesis simply because you like it, that's a valid reason. If you buy it thinking it's better than it is, or worth lots more than it is, or it restores your hair, then you've been had. I say that because I suspect many people buy luxury cars for the wrong reason. I've seen it happen, and I've seen badges let people down.
Perception often does not reflect reality, and badges do not make cars good. Good cars make badges mean something, but admittedly it takes time.
Traditonal luxury car owners hate the idea of Hyundai diluting their car's mystique, so Genesis will never get a fair shake from you.
Well, Joe, you should ask that question to the hundreds of millions of Americans out there. It's a shame but brands do dictate here, and not only the consumers, the companies themselves positioned their marques that way. That's why you'll never hear a BMW spokesman say: the 1-series will be our economy car. Hell no, he/she will say: the 1-series will be our more affordable luxury entry.
Is Phaeton a luxury car? Is 1er a luxury car? Is A-Class a luxury car? Is Isetta a luxury car?
Phaeton, at least in my mind (and a million others outside US), is a luxury car. The same for Touareg. The 1series, A2, A3, MB A and B-class are sure as hell not a luxury car. Hummer is NOT a luxury brand, a niche brand it is.
Nissan Fuga and President, Sssangyong Chairman, Toyota Crown are a few others which deserve to be called a luxury car.
My personal take. :shades:
I guess I'm not a traditional luxury car owner (admittedly, I'm not.) I have a BMW 550i Sport, yet I still wish the Genesis all the best and am excitedly looking forward to its success and the success of the Hyundai brand overall in its quest to move upscale.
How sad it is that people always forget the Toyota Cressida.
Why should anybody ,least of all a car nut like me, have any problem with Hyundai (or anybody else) building good cars. :confuse: From an enthusiasts point of view, and a reliability point of view, cars in general are substantially better than they were 20 or 30 years ago.
For you own info. I don't drive any semblance of a 'luxury' car - just a relatively well appointed Avalon. A car that I would regard in the same way as the Genesis, a really fine upscale car but certainly NOT a luxury car. Would I love to drive a 550 every day - sure, who wouldn't - but when it does come time to replace my $30k Toyota I probably am more likely to replace it with a Genesis as opposed to trying to justify all that extra money on something like that 550. I too am not 'badge crazy' and nor do I give a damn what other folks might think, but I would understand that the 40 large that I might spend on a Genesis would give me a car that's worth precisely that. No more and definitely no less.
"Virtually."
Perhaps the LS may have been bigger, but at the time when they both existed (4th gen Cressida/1st gen LS (89-92(?)), the LS and Cressida were practically indistiguishable to the casual eye. Correct, though, that the Cressida wasn't available with a V8.
also seem to remember that the LS redefined the whole concept of what an automotive sound system should be - making those Blaupunkts and Beckers sound like absolute crap, also some sort of air self leveling suspension that was also unique to the LS, a backlighted gauge assembly that has since become a 'standard' for all the better cars , a quiet isolated cabin that only Lexus (not Toyota) has now become famous for - I could go on.
Not virtually, perhaps?
Cressida probably was similar in size...
It was the first car to introduce power seat belts and electrochromic mirrors. Had a Nakamichi sound system...
On topic, I think the Genesis makes a fine luxury car. One thing, though. I think the naysayers who have "tried" one may have been dealing with the V6 version. I've sat in both and found that the V8, oddly enough, felt much more luxurious than the V6. The leather felt like it was a better quality or something. :confuse:
the point was not that things like air suspensions weren't available elsewhere (remember the Citroen SM) but only an illustration of how different the LS was from the Cressida. It (the LS) really was innovative in many respects and forced those nasty Germans to take immediate notice. Contend that the Genesis, in this case, is certainly less innovative (in relative terms) than that 1990 LS was, although they have duplicated the 'value' part of the equation quite nicely. Haven't even seen a V8 Genesis yet never mind sat in one so I can't comment. I do agree that the Genesis is a fine car, but still don't understand why Hyundai doesn't put more effort in establishing 'Genesis' as a brand, then maybe we do have room in the luxury market for Hyundai.....
Not so sure I'd phrase it this way (maybe a bit harsh) , because paying $40 large for anything means that we are definitely not talking 'plebes'. The 'plebes' are the ones that are in the sales office right next to yours, with $1000 burning a hole in their pockets, seeing if they can get financing on a $10k Accent. You don't find those kind of 'plebes' (or sales offices) at your local BMW/MB/Lexus etc. dealer, do you? Heck, you won't find anything on sale at those dealerships for under $20k-$25k - even in the used car dept.. all part of what is 'luxury'.
Part of the problem as it relates to the topic of this forum. My thought, of course, is that if any breaking thru the floor is going to get done (and logically the car is good enough that it should) it won't be Hyundai doing the honors, it will be 'Genesis'.
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However it doesn't matter, to me even A3's competitor, the 1-series is no more than a near luxury item, so I'd probably still put the A3 in the same category.
Last, as far as I know Audi place the A2 and A3 as economy cars. Being an Audi doesn't necessarily mean it's a luxury car, and magnetic ride isn't exclusive to the luxury class either. BMW initially created the 1-series to compete in the regular class where Audi and MB were big name players already.
To be honest, I'm not sure what your definition of luxury is. To me, luxury car is a car with the right equipment, the right interior, the right ammount of technology and performance.
Naturally, everyone's standard is different, so there's no way you can say I'm wrong or right, there's only either agree or disagree.
Nicely put.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Nicely put.
Yes it was.
At the present time, sad to say, there probably isn't room in the luxury markert for Hyundai.
It's not the fault of Hyundai or Genesis, but a quirk in the culture. Look at me! I'm wealthy and I'm better than you! How dare you drive an affordable car that makes it appear that I overpaid for mine!
I can see the Genesis as the perfect "stealth luxury car". How many times have you heard someone say that they did not want to drive a Mercedes or BMW because they did not want their clients to think they were making too much money? Or maybe they don't want their employees to think the same thing. Then there are a lot of other people who feel the same way...they just want to keep a low profile.
Now these people won't have to drive a Taurus, Impala, or something like that. They can just humbly say, "I drive a Hyundai"....while they are secretly grinning from ear to ear !!
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Exactly !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Did I mess the memo on the coming revolution?
Of course at the same time, the Genesis doesn't really compete with anything too ostentatious anyway, so maybe this won't be an impact.
I don't know... VW tried, right? and failed miserably... :sick:
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Maybe it's just me but imo the same can be said if Hyundai insists on making Genesis a luxury car. A "value" theme might work against entry level ones, but the upper ones, where the likes of Lexus GS, BMW 5, and Audi A6 roam is beyond the reach of value alone. Hyundai needs something more to compete there.
I think I recall Hyundai commercials stating that Genesis was "Luxurious", but not stating it is a "Luxury car". Maybe they did.
This argument can never be settled, because there is no precise definition of a luxury car. If we could all agree on exactly what a luxury car is, I bet we could agree on the original question within a day or 2.
I guess everyone has his own definition of a luxury car. Mine is "A car that costs a little more than I can afford, but I bought it anyway"
Look up "Luxury car" on wikipedia for one more opinion (I believe Wikipedia is an assemblage of mainly opinions, moreso than facts.)
What's your definition of a luxury car?
agreed, but the thing about this is- what Hyundai needs may not be a different car than the Genesis they already have- the product may be at least close to 'right'.
The key will be to distance the car from its parentage, if you accept the proposition that the Hyundai name and reputation is much closer to word 'cheap' then other more complimentary terms. Whether this is still actually true or not, is not the problem if folks still think this is the case. Coming up with a good car like the Genesis can only do so much to expunge those foul memories of Hyundai as it was in the late 80s and into the 90s. Hyundai can blow away all the money it wants on halftime ads, but it all does them little good if the car buyer still feels a stigma of sorts associated with driving a Korean car. In short they won't give the car a chance.
Creation of a 'Genesis' brand, a Genesis dealer, a Genesis price premium, as well as a fine car that it apparently already is are all necessary components, but Hyundai only seems to be addressing one of them.
Reviews I read of the Phaeton did indicate to me that it was really not a whole bunch more than a steel bodied A8 although I also seem to remember comments on how the VW actually 'outluxed' several of its competitors including BMW, A8,and Benz. The fact that it did fail so quickly is only testimony to the fact that what the car market perceives as 'luxury' is definitely more than what is on an option list. VW has a fairily good rep for building well engineered 'drivers cars' but not an especially good one as it relates to reliabilityand quality. I'm not even so sure that too many folks out there know that Hyundais might be superior to the VW from a reliability perspective never mind that Hyundais are anything but 'driver's cars'. The point : if Hyundai's market position is roughly comparable (or even worse than) VW's , how can anyone expect that Hyundai will have less problems succeeding as a 'luxury' mfgr. :confuse:
What Hyundai is attempting to do with the Genesis, makes no sense from a marketing perspective, IMO and may only serve to establish the fact that Hyundai is capable of manufacturing a car that could be worth the $40k or so they get for them - but not a place at the table of those 'luxury car manufacturers. Progress, for sure, but well short of doing the 'Lexus' type of thing that I'm guessing those folks in Ulsan wanted.
Phaeton's mission was to be more luxurious than Mercedes and Bmw, thus beating them at their own game. Mr. Piech was trying to teach MB a lesson because MB had encroached on his economy car territory with the A class.
Hyundai has no such illusions or plans. They just want to be successful, sell cars, and make money. If they were hung up on Hyundai being seen as a top notch luxury car they would have opened a new sales channel in the U.S. and also brought over the Equus. With today's economy, turns out they did the right thing.
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Good luck with that - we spent years trying to define what a SUV is and never got close to a consensus.
feel free to correct me, but the Phaeton was a steel bodied (not aluminum) A8, almost a 'rebadge job' otherwise, and as such was no relative of any Bentley. As it turns out with the economy going south so quickly the timing may be good for the Genesis or any price/value leader. We'll have to see, but selling in relatively high numbers certainly argues against the exclusivity associated with true luxury cars and true luxury brands.
Like the BMW 3-series and Mercedes C-class?
yes, just like all those 'cheap' 3s and Cs you see on the road. Both are 'entry level' lux at best, and probably largely because of their badges - at least in 'base' form. . Cars like the 335 and the C350 can get up near or even above $50k, however, a bit different than their lesser cousins however, more expensive and substantially less common, and therefore closer to 'luxury'. The ES is, I think, decidedly not luxury despite its Lexus badge, primarily because of its price as well as its Camry heritage. The new Lincolns, the MKS (35k) and MKZ (27k) are also not lux IMO because of their rather pedestrian prices and rebadged Ford heritage as well, much in the same way.
I guess it is high price that becomes a primary determinant of 'exclusivity' but this is also only one component of what makes a 'luxury' car. Chevrolet could sell whatever it wants for $50k (that's not a Corvette or an absurdly outfitted truck) and wharever it was selling would still not be a 'luxury' car. Luxury cars come from 'luxury' brands and Chevy is not a 'luxury brand - and nor is Hyundai.
What do you drive by the way?
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I could go out and replace my Avalon tomorrow and spend about 40 grand on something that would have about every doodad known to mankind, obviously be quite 'luxurious' by any reasonable definition - and still not own a 'luxury' car. Toyota makes some fine cars - they just don't make 'luxury' ones.
Do you know the difference between luxury and prestige?
Give me a few examples of what you believe to be "luxury" cars that do not come from Europe.
You are the perfect example of the thinking that makes the Genesis the ultimate "stealth luxury car" designed for "the millionaire next door". Just what Hyundai had in mind.
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There are several European brands that aren't 'luxury' in my mind including Saab, Volvo, and of course, VW as well as several brands not sold here. Just like Hyundai with the Genesis, they all make some decent 'upscale' sedans - just not true 'luxury ones.
the whole concept of a 'stealth luxury car' is almost a contradiction. Folks that spend that kind of scratch on anything aren't' usually afraid to let everybody know they did