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Toyota could easily be the next GM.
In the luxury market, here's some recent numbers:
Mercedes Benz: down 11.2% 2008 to 2007
Lexus: down 24.6%
Audi: down 6.1%
Infiniti: down 11.1%
Acura: down 20%
Lincoln: down 18.4%
BMW: down 15.2%
Chrysler: down 38% (but 300 down 48%)
Cadillac: down 24.9%
In this rotten market for luxury cars, Hyundai sold 6,167 Genesis sedans in the last few months of 2008. Where do we suppose those sales came from? (See above for a hint.)
In January, 1,056 Genesis sedans were sold. Compare that to, for example, 898 Lexus GS sales (down 41.7%), 1,176 M sales (down 17.4%), and 3,418 CTS sales (down 38.2%).
Is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai? Duh.
When competitors' sales are all declining and yours are rising, or declining at a lesser rate, it is reasonable to make a correlation between their drop in sales and your increase in sales; i.e., you are taking market share away from them.
Hyundai has forged a place in the low-end luxury sedan market during one of the worst times for car sales in the past 50 years, with a brand new car from a company heretofore not known for this kind of car. Not only has this car captured a respectable slice of the market, outselling well-established competitors, but it has garnered critical acclaim such as the NACOTY, MTCOTY runner-up, and CR's highest-scoring vehicle in its class.
If you are serious about wanting to see evidence of BMW, MB, and Audi customers flocking to the Genesis, because that will help you decide if Hyundai is indeed a player in this market, I am sure there are ways to collect that info. For example, we have some Hyundai salespeople who frequent the Hyundai discussions. You could ask them about what they have seen from Genesis buyers/lessors, i.e. what they have traded or what they considered besides the Genesis.
The sales last month allowed Hyundai to double its previous US market share.
Fiestiness is as silliness goes.
Hyundai and Kia are rising further all the time and critics are grinding their teeth saying the dumbest things, as arguments. backy has pointed out that indeed Hyundai has proven that there is room in the luxury market for them.
Or, do you naysayers still think the Genesis sedan is not a luxo vehicle?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Maybe they think it isn't expensive enough to be a luxury car. Or, or, maybe the badge doesn't get those admiring, envious glances like Smiling Bob.
Personally, I use the old duck test. If it looks like a luxury car, rides like a luxury car, and has the quality and engineering of a luxury car, it is a luxury car. I think Genesis, and Hyundai have arrived.
Low end luxury sedan market, or maybe high end mainstream.
Looking at all the hype I see from the fanboys here, pretty much saying that Hyundai is not capable of error, I am not sure I would believe claims from someone as entrenched as a salesman. I'd probably see stories of LS. S, and 7ers being traded.
Can Hyundai do wrong? So far I see perfect marketing, perfect design, perfect lineup, wow.
But the old "fanboys saying Hyundai is not capable of error" whine is getting pretty old, don't you think? If you can't do better than to label anyone who makes a positive statement here a "fanboy", why should you expect others to respect your positions here?
Also, categorizing salespeople who post in CarSpace (and there are many of them) as liars isn't helpful to discussion. They fall under the same rules here as you do. And they are in the best position to answer the question you asked.
Why is hyperbole so offensive to some? And what's wrong with being a fanboy?
I didn't realize honesty was a rule
I think I'll go trade in my Porsche... :P
No? What about this:
How about 40% of buyers traded Lexus, BMW, MB, and Porsche products for the Genesis, or 90% of Genesis owners come from other brands? Pretty good conquest sales, if nothing else.
Hyperbole of the "Hyundai can do no wrong!" sort is a way of dismissing the opinions of others with contempt while not putting forward any new ideas on the topic; so it's not very conducive to civil discussion. As for calling people "fanboys", it is a way of taking personal shots at people and dismissing their opinions as those of an obsessed fanatic, i.e. "you are utterly devoted to a single subject, in an emotional or fanatical manner, often to the point where it is considered an obsession." Which is not only inaccurate, but again is not conducive to civil discussion.
Before you trade in your Porsche on a Hyundai, you might want to wait until the new Genesis coupes make it to your dealerships. Unless you own a Porsche SUV, that might be more to your liking than the Genesis sedan.
Comes straight from the mouth of a Hyundai USA exec.
I think you're going to have to show me where anyone on this forum said "Hyundai is not capable of error".
I think Hyundai owners are anti-fanboys. I'm not enamored by any brand. I'm a huge fan of quality, reliability, good engineering, and value. I couldn't care less what the brand is if a car meets my criteria.
Read the Edmunds reviews of Genesis, on the right of this page. Those are honest reviews by owners. You will see that a lot of people are moving to Genesis from established luxury brands, and feel they have sacrificed nothing.
Hyundai has fanboys just like any other brand. I've seen people who were enamored with Daewoo!
80 Genesis reviews? Out of how many sales? That must be the highest percentage of reviews vs sales in automotive history.
When any logical criticism of the actions of a brand is fought hard and instantly, it can be mocked with hyperbole.
Porsche conquests....yeah. I don't think that's a legitimate aim of the Genesis coupe.
I could get it but I don't want to, at least not for you. There is no point to reason with you since the pro-Hyundai points (with real data) went through you like they were somehow made up from thin air.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Also, there are strong opinions stated here on both sides of the discussion. The fact someone--including you--has a strong opinion on a subject is no excuse to mock them, or twist their point of view ala "Hyundai can do no wrong!"
I don't know if Porsche conquests are in fact an aim of the Genesis coupe. I'd suspect not a direct aim. It was just a suggestion, to take a look at the coupe if in fact you are looking to trade your Porsche for a Hyundai--a suggestion for you to ignore if you wish.
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6391244/news/2009-hyundai-genesis-sales-on-targe- t/index.html
Fairy tales
Can come true
It can happen to you
If you're young at heart
Anyway, I am glad to save someone the trouble of a search.
So, the brother in law of a Hyundai dealer traded in his decrepit old 924 to cover the taxes on his new Genesis, and to make a nice story. Amusing :P
Answer me this, if you dare. Has Hyundai made any errors at all in the past 5 years? If you didn't own one, would you be such a party line follower?
I don't own a Porsche, never have, don't really plan to. Just more hyperbole that is somehow taken as gospel :confuse:
fintail, you are actually refuting something that came straight from the mouth of a Hyundai exec.? What's next? Every interview every auto exec. conducted was incorrect? The whole auto market has deceived us for years and years?
Anyway, if you actually think about this for a second...while Porsche owners are very loyal in general, Cayenne owners are anything but, so I can totally see someone trading in a Cayenne for a Genesis, for example. And, while I don't think the total Porsche trade-ins were large, the whole "40% trade-ins" data was nonetheless 100% valid. Good luck trying to prove this otherwise.
Make a wild claim, prove it, not otherwise.
However, I can believe some traded an ES for a Genesis (I would much rather have the Genesis) or an off lease C or 3 etc.
There is nothing wrong if you don't agree with the opinions of others, but stop using the same old hyperbole & fanboy arguments. You can try and post data to support your own points, just like we have.
And, I am going to quote backy on the rest, and I can't believe you are trying to lay this one on backy.
Hyperbole of the "Hyundai can do no wrong!" sort is a way of dismissing the opinions of others with contempt while not putting forward any new ideas on the topic; so it's not very conducive to civil discussion. As for calling people "fanboys", it is a way of taking personal shots at people and dismissing their opinions as those of an obsessed fanatic, i.e. "you are utterly devoted to a single subject, in an emotional or fanatical manner, often to the point where it is considered an obsession." Which is not only inaccurate, but again is not conducive to civil discussion.
Make a wild claim, prove it, not otherwise.
Please read it carefully with what I have posted.
Hyundai has said 40% of the trade-ins for the Genesis came from previous owners of luxury brands, including Porsche. I've then laid out the details of my educated guess as to the possible model in which the trade-in came from. This isn't some wild claim but rather common knowledge in terms of Porsche's owner loyalty - the Cayenne has little loyalty in that sense.
Joe97: Anyway, if you actually think about this for a second...while Porsche owners are very loyal in general, Cayenne owners are anything but, so I can totally see someone trading in a Cayenne for a Genesis, for example. And, while I don't think the total Porsche trade-ins were large, the whole "40% trade-ins" data was nonetheless 100% valid. Good luck trying to prove this otherwise.
And now... can you please provide for us some factual evidence that backs up your position, as others have done here? Please provide URLs or other references to your data so we can be sure you aren't pulling our legs again or going hyperbolic on us. Thanks.
You are not in a position to dictate which words I use. If they upset you, you are well within your rights to ignore me, and free to exercise those rights.
Do you cheerlead for the other brands?
What is my "position" you think you can demand evidence for? Please define what you see as my position so I can see what I am dealing with, or simply skip my posts. Thank you.
Simply because the Cayenne might have low loyalty - which I do not doubt as it is known to be far from a trouble free vehicle - doesn't mean that these vehicles are being traded for much more anonymous sedans.
I never debated the 40% trade in figure, did I? No, I didn't. But I see nothing on this planet to see any Porsche trade ins outside of an anomaly to look fun on paper.
Anyhow... does anyone want to discuss the topic?
Except Cayenne starts mid 40s. Sure you can get up to 125K+ with the Turbo S model...
When I first posted the trade-in figures, you've immediately doubted by asking me where the source came from; you still didn't want to believe when the link was posted for you; and it continued...
I've gone through from the beginning of this convo, which started with the discussions of the Super Bowl ads - was that your reference to the marketing/brand strategies? I didn't see anything else within the referenced period.
Wrong. Based on the latest data, the base Cayenne models account for 40-50% of total Cayenne sales.
By the way, IIRC, Hyundai has said the new nameplate would be too costly in the US (and North America for that matter); in their estimation, it would take years (in double digit) just to break-even.
Looking back now, which at the time it was before the whole economic crisis, the decision to have the Genesis stay within the Hyundai family may be the better move of the two, especially since it has also benefited other models within the brand, as well as the overall brand. Now all of the accomplishments and the Genesis Coupe provide another push
Shall we get back to the topic?
Just remember that when you wrestle a pig you get dirty...plus the pig actually enjoys it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Those are great numbers, if true, but I think it's fair to ask for a source.
If it's just that an exec said it, well, that's not enough. That might just be wishful thinking, or perhaps even their forecast, not hard numbers.
I think it's fair to ask what the source was, even if it only means finding the article where the Hyundai exec was quoted.
I almost never see a Cayenne that doesn't at least have an S on it.
I don't know if the average Accent shopper will think "wow, this is made by the same people who make the Mercedes-slaughtering Genesis" :shades:
Keep in mind what kind of trouble an auto exec can get into (personally, and for his/her company) if he/she makes false statements about the company's performance and wrt the competition to the press. The exec is acting as an agent of the company in that regard. Statements such as this exec made, if untrue, could easily be considered material misrepresentation, triggering legal action by consumers, competitors, etc. Or at least have the potential for some very negative press.
So I think it's reasonable to assume that statements like those made by the Hyundai exec have data to back them up.
From Porsche USA.
Here is the breakdown for January:
Cayenne base and Tiptronic - 404
Total Cayenne - 947
43%
December:
Cayenne base and Tiptronic - 428
Total Cayenne - 860
50%
Similar trend in November (49%)
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=97562
and specifically where I took the numbers:
Q: Who is buying Genesis?
A: We know that 40% of those buying Genesis have traded in vehicles like Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche. We know what their income levels are, and we are finding that people are gravitating from luxury or near-luxury cars to Hyundai; we expect to see numbers of current Hyundai people moving over to Genesis as well. It is a very healthy launch and a commentary on today's environment that consumers see Genesis as competitive against luxury makes.
Q: So most of Genesis buyers are currently from other brands?
A: Right now, 90% of all buyers of Genesis are coming from outside Hyundai.
And even if so, half of these vehicles selling for 60s+ makes an odd lateral move into a sedan probably not selling for more than 40.
Wow, almost 1000 sales per month, that's impressive for such a vehicle.
Still, though, execs will make all sorts of claims.
For example, in the Subaru threads we often debate sales, and one year we found varying sales projections from Subaru, all depending upon who you asked.
So I don't doubt that the exec said it, but I do wonder what the hard numbers really are. You know what they say, lies, d--- lies, and statistics.