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Also, Toyota and Lexus are the same company. Saying Toyota is as much a luxury brand as Lexus is unfair to Lexus owners.
I'm never going to say that Hyundai can't come out with a 'luxury' car. . but, the brand is not known for luxury as M-B and BMW are. . .
One last thing, since we are in America, we should keep the discussion to America. Other countries have different standards for luxury. . .
That makes for a great way to start a conversation. It's clear you don't want one since you believe everyone who has a different opinion than you do on this is "crazy".
Have you driven the Genesis sedan yet? I'll bet not.
BTW, this is a world-wide forum. No need to apply "Americans are the only people who count" here.
I hope you don't live near an airport--you could get seriously injured.
So Hyundai sells cars that differ in price by about $30k by the same brand name. However, MB sells cars that differ in price by, what, nearly $100,000, by the same brand name. How can they get away with that??? Aren't they afraid that the super-rich who are after the S63s at $127k won't want to be caught dead in the vicinity of the "soccer moms" buying an SUV to tote the kids around, or the low end C Class that a 25-something kid is going to lease (because he/she can't afford to buy it)? And MB is seriously looking at bringing even lower-end cars here! How can they deal with that disparity in price, and "class" of buyer? It seems a terrible, terrible problem to have, doesn't it?
Or maybe it's not because people are more flexible than you think they are.
the difference is that you (and backy I think) are looking as at luxury car' as being some summation of options, bling, and even specs. while I am saying what is a luxury car is also about perceptions. Therefore -
while Toyota may be perceived as all kinds of things in Japan, your royal family would not be riding in a luxury' car IN THIS COUNTRY if it happens to have a Toyota label.
Further the customer base is quite different as well - the guy out there struggling to get his credit approved for a $10+ Hyundai, versus that probable yuppie (old term) that is wanting to flaunt the fact that he has a real job and simply wants to upgrade his ride from that Accord he was driving, perhaps .
And yes, there are still a bunch of carbuyers out there - even amongst the J3 loyalists - that wouldn't want to be caught dead at a Hyundai dealership.
Regarding the traditional design....it took Lexus nearly 20 years to make an LS that wasn't MB-themed....can H develop a mind of its own a little faster? It's as much as an excuse for lazy designers and incompetent marketers as anything.
That being said, I await the next Genesis. H will gain more cred once it can develop its own styling themes.
In other words, MB is doing exactly what you say Hyundai should not do: selling both entry-level cars and luxury cars under the same badge. The difference is, you don't respect the Genesis as a "luxury" car (despite all the automotive pros who do), and I think it's unlikely you'll admit the Equus is a luxury car either.
You don't think some of the folks in the BMW/MB etc. dealerships are struggling to get their credit approved to buy or lease a car?
The number of J3 loyalists who wouldn't be caught dead at a Hyundai dealership is dwindling fast. Maybe they see their chance of survival is better in a Hyundai than in something like... a Toyota.
Sit in an Equus and you will start to do the comparison.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd also hope that ornament is more than "likely" to be removed - things like that don't help cred. It's a sign a stylist somewhere doesn't have a clue about western market tastes. That hood ornament is also not the context of this discussion, so yes, I understand plenty.
So once again, it's OK for some automakers like MB and BMW--your favs--to rely on traditional styling cues from their earlier cars, and evolve them. But when Hyundai takes cues from their earlier models (C pillar on Azera, grille from XG) and blends them into its new cars, it's a no-no.
Perhaps one of the requirements is for sheer road presence, but the acres of chrome festooned around the (Maybach) car's grille are uncomfortably reminiscent of the Hyundai XG.
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/maybach-range-1003778.html
Objections to the 2004 Maybach 57: ... Grille design reminds of the Hyundai XG350 or Lincoln Town Car...
http://www.autoweb.com/content/research/buyersguide/index.cfm/action/viewGuide/y- ear_si/2004/make_vch/Maybach/model_vch/57/xml/2004-maybach-57.xml
I have no problem with H developing its own themes and evolving them, in fact, I'd like to see the evolution. It's interesting no matter the maker.
You must be really, really old if you can't remember when you went shopping for your first new car. That would explain a few other things, too.
You will probably be interested in the current Hyundai styling theme, which is best seen in the new Tucson and Sonata, and soon the new Elantra, Accent, and... probably the next-gen Genesis.
The Sonata theme is a bit more original...it will be interesting to see how it can be shaped into a higher line car.
The Sonata will not be shaped into a higher line car. Hyundai has a full line just like Toyota. The Azera is the next step up from Sonata. It's slightly larger and offers a V6. Fact is, the Sonata was knocked down a notch so it wouldn't encroach on the Azera. (No V6 offered for 2011)
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/car-photos/Hyundai/Azera/2011
IN OTHER WORDS ???? - I guess I really need you to write for me.
NO, Hyundai cannot do what MB is doing because it isn't and nor will it likely ever be a 'luxury' brand. And there is a whole lot of difference in selling $10k s***boxes and $30-$40k upscale sedans. The buying demographic is a whole lot different as are their expectations. Ahh, but your the one that thinks a Mini is the same thing as a BMW, a Toyota is the same as a Lexus, and a luxury is nothing more than an arbitrary summation of specifications and bling. How's that for putting words IN YOUR MOUTH! I guess I shouldn't expect you to understand.
I personally think the Genesis is a fine car, and a perfectly legit upscale sedan but respecting it as a 'luxury' sedan - hell no - because it definitively is NOT one YET - as it is currently being sold and most importantly given how Hyundai is generally perceived outside the skewed world of H fanboydom. Trying to put it on a level with the premium German (or Japanese) cars is patently absurd IMO , especially if you can see past the end of your nose and understand the badge perceptions ARE an important part of what is (and is not) luxury.
The Equus as a Hyundai cannot be a luxury car either, almost regardless of how good and/or how expensive it might become - the key phrase here being 'as a Hyundai'. As something else and sold somewhere else, it might end up being a perfectly legit luxury car.
I agree with the captain full heartedly. I'm not saying that the opinions of others are incorrect, just giving my perception being in the 'luxury car' field! No one comes in to my dealership and asks "Will you be getting the new Genisis?" They ask questions such as, can I get a BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infinity or Audi or Porsche. . .
If you're going to subject us to all that anger, at least you can go drive one and give us an unbiased review.
I think the most likely questions relate to scheduling the above for repairs.
Service and repairs have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. . .It really all boils down to general perception. Whereas forums like this have car geeks (myself included) responding to them, the overall consumer will never see H as a luxury brand!
What I mean is how the Sonata design theme can be interpreted into a higher line car, not how the car itself can be higher line - because as you say, that's just not the intent.
That "new" Azera looks like the old one with a facelift. Inoffensive, but a cure for insomnia.
Sounds to me like Hyundai's hurting your sales. You aren't seeing them because they went to the Hyundai dealer. :shades:
To your point, Morton's Steakhouse can say that Taco Bell is hurting its business because its another restaurant, but it doesn't mean that they are the same level of quality or luxury. . .
yeah, backy does have a way to getting me going - apologize for that if it bothers anybody. I have only been in a Gen sedan in the showroom, am not in the market for a car like that right now in any case, BUT going out and driving one is not going to change my opinions on whether or not there is 'room in the luxury market FOR HYUNDAI'. Do I think there is room in the luxury market, sure - is the Genesis a damn fine effort sure - but can a Hyundai labelled product ever been considered on the same plane as those 'lux' brands - not ever IMO. IT has little to do with the car itself.
As I have said a few times earlier, Hyundai could rebadge LSs and sell them for $70k and STILL not have a luxury car. Unfortunately it's all in a name (and in a perception) and a test drive wouldn't change any of that.
The dealership experience is one thing, but you don't live (hopefully) at the dealer.
But, I feel we are getting off the point again. . .and with the hours I put in, unfortunately I feel like I live at the dealership. . . :surprise:
I'm a traditionalist, but the whole "dealership experience" has changed since 1980. Cars just don't need service and tinkering every 5000 miles like they used to. So the whole luxury car service and customer treatment is no longer a solid argument for spending thousands extra for luxury names. My favorite thing about service in order is:
1. Rarity Check!
2. Speed Check!
3. Loaner (if no.2 is not possible) Check!
4. Donuts (arguably No1) Check!
5. Comfortable digs with WAN and HDTV Check!
6. Friendly staff Check!
For my last 6-8 vehicles over 20 years, I have probably spent 2 hours in a service waiting room. I have spent practically nothing on unscheduled service. I did get dinged by my Audi, the warranty was very short. My current 08 Toyota has never been back to the dealership, and my 06 Sonata only twice. I've spent $4 on it. Rarity trumps everything else!
As for buying, all I want are keys, coffee, and a clean, private cubicle with a polite sales person. I don't need anyone to stroke my ego, just fill out the paperwork. I suspect I'm not the only one that likes it that way!
really - you know for example that the German sedans have pretty much perfected the IRS multi link setup over the years - something that Hyundai has rightfully tried to copy in the Gen -simply because it is the way to do it right.
Yet something is apparently lost in translation - from reviews I've read (and some owner comments on this forum) the Gen's ride ultimately loses its composure on washboard roads etc. So what is BMW/MB/Lexus doing that Hyundai isn't, if I bite into your 'parts is parts' contention?
I would suggest to you that there is a lot more (a helluva lot more) that goes into some cars than simply 'parts'. Engineering acumen (and experience) is not something you find at the dealership, and may be one justification for those price tags :confuse: .
And yeah, hanging around a dealership trying to sell something in this economy would be tough. You have my sympathy.
And I don't buy that Teutonic engineering is at some magical level above that from the people that work in Korea.
I don't know if I would compare the cars directly, either. One is going to be a much more engaging drive than the other. I'd be more interested to see what it does to NA market LS sales.
Or was that the prestige argument, lol?
And it's about time to insert Warren Buffett back into the mix. I forget what he replaced his Town Car with - wasn't it a Lexus?
No doubt the Equus will be/is very plush, but that's not the point.
Warren Buffett apparently doesn't like driving cars. Good for him.
Remember not so long ago that a car was deemed worn out at 60k miles. Yes, cars, all cars, have definitely become more reliable - and significantly more expensive :sick:
while I know you'll reject such a notion, buying those high end, highly tuned and technologically superior luxury cars will generally mean MORE time at the dealership - not less. The treatment at the dealership becomes therefore more important - not less..
If you are wanting to buy a luxury car, you sound like you need to limit your choices to Lexus or Infiniti products and stay away from those generally higher performance German sedans
McDonalds has cornered the market on what they do. They have a finely tuned system in place and are very good in the niche they've carved for themselves. But, does that make them luxury? Just because you have more customers than anyone else, does not mean you are luxury. As a matter of fact, it means exactly the opposite. Luxury is something not EVERYONE can afford. Luxury is what people strive to afford. Mcdonalds is good for what they do, as is Hyundai. . .but NEITHER mcdonalds or Hyundai should ever be classified as luxury!
Amen!
I have heard often that the Genesis is a 'poor man's Lexus'. If that is the case than that is one more reason why it isn't luxury.
For all we know, McDonalds may be pulling some prime slabs off the hooks and sending them to Mortons or Ruth Chris.
If I can't afford an Equus or Genesis, so I wind up in a $33k C Class, I'm in the lap of luxury?
You will never, ever get me to agree that the more you pay for something, the more unreliable it ought to be.
Also, I don't accept your premise about superior technology in German cars. Daring unproven technology, yes. Superior, no. Technology that's truly superior is also reliable.
But, again, going with your point, yes. . .
If you can not afford the Top of the line, best Hyundai has to offer Genisis for 40K, you can go to Mercedes and buy the Base model, lowest caliber they offer C Class for 36K. . .
However, since we are talking brand, lets find the MOST expensive car that Hyundai sells in mass. . .It is the 2010 Genisis, retailing high for 43K. . .
Mercedes most expensive mass selling car is the S Class which retails for 90K. . .That is a low ball figure. That doesn't even count the slightly less than mass produced SLR or others like it which can go for 250K or more. . .
Someone should create a sliding scale for us - from Yugo to Maybach and beyond. I'd sketch one out with my Teutonic Mont Blanc Meisterstuck (mine's not the Diplomat, but the next size smaller), but the set (nib) got ruined decades ago. And I much prefer my Pentil, although my Pentech is quite good too.
You've been nipping around the edges of class, so let me clear something up for you, OK? Not everyone who buys Hyundai cars are poor, or have poor credit.
I've never in my life had a problem getting credit, and I resent the inference. I've paid cash for 2 new cars, and paid the other 8-10 off early. So no, I don't see the Genesis as a poor man's Lexus. I see it as a smart man's Lexus.