Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Worst Automatic Transmissions Ever Built?

2

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    While it's true that most shops use the term "overhaul" and "rebuild" interchangeably, this is not legally correct by any means. An overhaul means "bad parts replaced, usable parts retained" while a "rebuild" means "returned to factory specification"--in other words, even usable parts are discarded to make the unit "like new".

    Most "rebuilds" aren't.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    most rebuilds are NOT restored to factory specification? I've wondered about this for years-if you get an "overhaul" does it mean the same as a "rebuilt" According to what you've said, the answer is "no" and therefore a lot of tranny "rebuilders" [and engine rebuilders too?] could be liable for fraud, selling "rebuilt" trannies as "factory spec" when in fact they aren't? A couple of personal experiences make me wonder...Suppose you get a rebuilt trans for your Alfa, for example, and part of it fails, and you discover the failed part was actually used, and showed some wear, if only minor. What then? I guess the warranty, if any, kicks in then. [the old 10-30...ten seconds or thirty feet-whichever comes first].
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the legal issue would be whether or not the used part was within factory spec when re-installed. But I can tell you that when someone says "rebuilt" there should be a very specific written list of what that means. To me, when I "rebuild" an engine, I open it up and shake the parts into a trash can--I'm not going to put shaggy parts into a new engine...however, no reason to throw away the block or the flywheel,etc, if they are still usable, and say the rocker arm shaft if it's okay....you know, there is some common sense in doing a 'rebuild'. But I don't even use most of the old bolts and nuts (cylinder head especially--they stretch and you get a wrong torque reading).
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    that there are rebuilders and then there are "rebuilders"-there is a big difference in the quality of rebuilt parts. Some of us learned that the hard way-[like changing the water pump on a Dodge van 3 times because of three faulty rebuilts]. I just never realized there was a legal definition involved. The rebuild as you describe it is the way I thought it was-but obviously, that isn't what all rebuilders do. I guess it's just "buyer beware" as usual.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It's amazing what that term means to some people!

    Earl Schieb paint job and a set of seat covers!
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Sorry, off topic, but...is Earl Scheib still around, and how much does he charge now? Back in 1962, it was 29.95 in the LA area. My Dad had his 58 Renault Dauphine painted red [5 bucks more for a custom color-34.95] before he sold it. What the hell, you got what you paid for. Yeah, there was a "restored" Renault Dauphine. Talk about "buyer beware" and 10-30 guarantee...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think it's up to $300, which is about the right "factor of 10" for inflation between then and now.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    There was an Earl Schieb in Torrance, CA.

    The advertised price at that time was 29.95.

    The trick was to remove as many emblems, mouldinge, etc as you could before bringing your car in. Otherwise they would be painted over.

    The other trick was to find the painter who would do your car and slip him 10.00.

    Still, you got what you paid for. Many a nice car was ruined by those 29.95 paint jobs.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    the Earl Scheib we went to was in Paramount, CA. I remember taking off all the trim myself, feather sanding a few nicks, etc. We stood and watched the painter while he mixed the paint. Actually, it was a pretty good job for the money. There are painters, and there are painters, I guess-like everything else. A friend just had his 64 Impala SS painted, for 5000 bucks-and if it were my car, I'd [non-permissible content removed]. There are spots I wouldn't settle for for that money.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For $5,000, it should have been flawless and perfect.
  • rabidbowtierabidbowtie Member Posts: 29
    Late 40's Chrysler Fluid Drives.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    New trannys are much, much more complicated than before. While they are hydraulic, the electronics in the car tell the transmission when to shift, it is not a direct hydraulic link. There are numerous electronic sensors that do the work.

    Not to cost. The factory put a brand new transmission in my 2000 Intrepid that had only 3,000 miles. The technician told me the cost of the job, which was picked up by Chrysler, would have been about $3,200 if I had to pay for it. They think the casing had a bad casting and would not hold the transmission pump in place, so they just took it out and shipped a new unit down and installed it.

    The tech told me the newer trannies from 98 model year on have been better, they all have coolers installed, and different fluids now.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Now they are making it all the way to 70,000 miles instead of 50K.

    Yours only went 3000 miles?

    Good Luck!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I hope mine will go more than 70K miles!! I just had my 2000 Intrepid's tranny serviced at 30K miles, and the shop said it definitely was ready for it. I was ragging it out delivering pizzas, though, so it really qualified for severe duty, so I guess this shows that Chrysler trannies CAN be reliable! But I'll be at 70K miles in about a year and a half now (I only deliver one nite a week now, but still drive around a lot in my free time) I HOPE the thing won't need a new tranny by the time it's 2 1/2 years old! That's totally kill my impression of anything new and doom me to a life of driving beat up Darts and Newports and the like.

    Anyway, I have a co-worker with a 2000 Lincoln LS that was ready for its second tranny after about 6000 miles. And the tranny is about to go on my mom & stepdad's 99 Altima, which has about 25,000 miles on it. And these cars see much lighter duty than mine, being used mainly for 40-50 mile commutes to work in mostly highway driving. My mom's previous car, a '91 Stanza, at least went about 120,000 miles before its transmission started to go.

    Jsylvester, good luck w/ your Intrepid! $3200 is a heckuva lot of money in my opinion, although I knew one guy, another delivery driver, who had to replace a tranny in a Subaru Impreza wagon...I think it was over $4000 (can't remember the exact figure...I mentioned it in one of these forums awhile back but can't find it now). I have an extended warranty on my Intrepid, so if the tranny goes within the first 100K miles, I should only have to pay the $200 deductible. If it goes at 101K miles, time to junk the car, 'cause I'm sure it's not going to be worth $3200 by that time!!

    -Andre
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I just talked to my mom, and found out that her Altima has 35K miles on it, not 25K, and her tranny is at least covered under warranty. If it wasn't, I think the cost would be about $4000. Ouch!

    Just wanted to get the facts (more or less) straight!
    -Andre
  • rkpattrkpatt Member Posts: 23
  • rkpattrkpatt Member Posts: 23
    1.The worst automatic transmission experiences for me were a the less tahn 50k mile failures of the with GM T125 in a 1985 Celebrity & Ford AXODE in a 1993 Tarus 3.8 (the the head gaskets went 12k mi later!).

    2.The longest lasting automatics for me have best the GM TH400 in Chev and the one in my Volvo 240 (oringinal over 200k mi.)

    3. I am now looking at buying a 1996-1993 pickup but don't want to get one of the "lemon" years of the Ford ( AOD ) or GM ( 700R4 / 4L60 ) automatics. Could one of you transmission experts here on the Town Hall BBS please discuss these and post some links.

    Thanks
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    #1 TH400 in a 70ish Olds 98. Dad was service manager at the time and customer complained of a vibration. SOP was to take the car up to ~80 and put tranny into neutral and coast down noting speeds at which vibration occured. Customer neglected to mention that the reverse-step pawl was broken in the steering column, so when Dad slipped it into neutral, you guessed it, reverse at >70MPH! Flat spotted the tires, but inspection showed no other damage. Customer kept car for many more years, never any problems with the tranny or the rest of the drive train.

    #2. '75 Olds Starfire, 231 V6, cast iron 4spd standard. One new years eve (yeah, you can figure out the details on that one) I missed a speed shift from second to third at about 65 and went into first. Cool part was that the syncs were good enough to do it, second cool part was that after recovering from taking that old piece of "stagger-fire" iron to over 6000rpm, the tranny and engine went another 50Kmiles without problem.

    #3. '79 Olds Cutlass Calais. This was the good one, rear wheel drive, touring suspension, sharp looker. Had the Chevy 305 w/4bbl from the factory. Also the 3spd TH200 that was falling out of cars all over the country. Mine had a very soft whine when accelerating hard through second gear. Took it in to have it looked at and was given a "yeah, it's noisey, but everything looks okay" Sold the car five years and 70K miles later. Tranny still made the same noise but never gave one minute of trouble.

    Jim
  • gerrydiana1gerrydiana1 Member Posts: 1
    My vote is definitely for our 1994 Mercury Sable. Nice smooth transmission until you hit the factory flaw and the aluminum piston clutch cracks (at under 60,000 kilometers).. 6 months and 3 transmissions later, this has been fixed. It's been ok since, but every Ford/Mercury owner of a 3.8l engine I know has had the transmission go early, some within the first two years of car ownership.

    I would like to argue with Isellhondas about the Mazda MPV transmission. It smooths out as the car is broken in, and runs fine for us right now. In terms of hunting for gears, it doesn't do that in hilly country if you turn off the Cruise control. The owners of 10 and 12 year old MPV's I talked to loved their vans, and many are still going strong. This van is head and shoulders above the Ford products, and may be more reliable than the Odyssey. time will tell. It certainly is easy to drive and park in the big city, and is big enough for our needs.

    Diana
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You can argue if you like, but the early MPV's are notorious for AT failures.

    Ask any transmission rebuilder.

    But then you never know...you may drive 200,000 miles and neve have a problem.

    Actually, I thought that Ford had solved, for the most part, the Taurus/Sable transmission woes by 1994? Perhaps not.

    By the same token, I once took in a 1988 Taurus with the 3.8 engine. 165,000 miles and neve a transmission problem.

    Go figure!
  • spectre3spectre3 Member Posts: 67
    1961-1964 gm olds "hydromatic" aka slim jim automatic transmission... remember these???
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    How about the Chevy turboglide 2-speed?

    Jaguar XJ6 in the 1970s.

    Saab automatics up to recently.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I think we've beat up on the slim jim before, but I don't mind doing it again. That transmission ruined a number of perfectly good Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. If it came out today it'd probably cause a class action suit--remember the guy here that complained because his Mazda's tranny went out with over 100k on it, and he wanted to sue?

    The first time I drove one, in a '62 Grand Prix, I was sure the transmission was shot. Then I found out they all perform like that. The only car I ever owned or drove that was comfortable with that huge gap between first and second was a '64 GP with the 421. Apparently the engine had enough torque to pull it without falling on its face.

    GM came out with a number of engineering "innovations" during that time, and most of them would have put a smaller company out of business.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    ...with a 2-speed automatic once. I think it was called a "Jetaway" or something like that. Anyway, the car was an 88, I think the mid-level model, because it had the 98's higher-performance 394 in it.

    The car was a pretty good performer, but just felt strange with only 2 gears!

    -Andre
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's what big V8s are for...you could use a one-speed with all that torque!
  • thedarkwolfthedarkwolf Member Posts: 70
    We managed to get our 93 taurus up to 205k miles on the orginal trans. It has been dying for about the last 70k though and is now more or less dead. You have to be real easy on the gas or it will stick in second and not come out till you turn the car off plus it slipps and bunch of wierd crap. Think ford would want to buy it to display it somewhere? Its got to be the highest milage ever seen by an orginal taurus trans :).
  • amoralesamorales Member Posts: 196
    '74 Super Beetle with SEMI-AUTO stick-shift. Self destructed at 17,000 miles to the tune of $1500 in 1975 (rebuilt),
    had to get loan from credit union for repairs. Out of warrantly. Love those German built automatic LOVE BUGS...

    SHUCKS!!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The Turboglide...total junk. Most were replaced with a Powerglide. I remember the starter and some other things had to be changed.

    The slim jim...always felt like they were slipping until they finally wouldn't move.

    But I still think Buick's miserable Dual Path used in Buick Specials from 61-63 were probably the worst. The trans pan was help in place by ONE bolt through the middle.

    VW Auto Sticks were a riot. If you rested your hand on the shifter they went into neutral. I saw a guy do this while revving the engine in first gear. When he yanked his hand off the shifter the VW almost pulled a wheelie! It was hilarous. Bet that transmission didn't last long!
  • spectre3spectre3 Member Posts: 67
    I apologize if I was rehashing an old topic with the mention of the slim Jim transmission, in this forum,,, I don't often cruise this topic.

    has anyone else here ever had the priveledge of re building one of these things? I did at 18 years old with a factory shop manual in hand. what a job!! overhaul kit was cheap though....
    the mechanic I borrowed the shop manual from said the most common complaint other than no shift at all from 1st, was the selector would not go into reverse from park while the engine was running.(my symptom) the problem wound up being that the govenor had reduced itself to a mass of twisted metal in the tailshaft....

    i agree with the other posters comments, thinking something was wrong as soon as they took their new car for a test drive!!

    how about those 1st to 2nd shifts??

    it felt to me like the car was being towed with a huge rubber band,, as soon as the car hit second gear you felt like you were being thrust forward quickly.. a wierd sensation.

    my brother had a 1965 olds. that transmission was a huge improvement. it never did fail, well over 100k on that car..
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    The Borg-Warner 65 was a piece of work. It would self destruct in as little as 20000 miles. I once bought a running 1972 BMW 3.0 4 speed parts car for $250. I wound up selling the transmission, driveshaft, and pedal cluster for $600 to a guy who was looking at a $1500+ rebuild of the POS BW65 in his 1973 3.0. BTW, the VW Auto-Stick was not a true automatic; it was a manual with an electrically controlled clutch; sort of a precursor of the Ferrari F1 and BMW SMG transmissions.
  • rover3500rover3500 Member Posts: 11
    The tranny on my 98 Tarus has 40,000 miles and has been nothing but problems. Been back to the dealer 6 times for the exact same problem!!! The will not replace the dang thing as a whole, but would rather replace the same clutch cylinders over and over. Just had the brain box replaced too. Thank god it is still under warentee. Gonna trade for a new Grand Prix in June.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Are junk. I keep hearing how the newer onew have been improved?

    Whenever we appraise a Taurus/Sable we ask the customer if they have replaced the transmission.

    If the answer is no, we REALLY drive it carefully to make sure it's not messing up. After that we will wholesale the car. Not worth taking a chance.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Just be careful if you get the GP, especially the GTP. If you start to notice that the engine feels like it's lugging take it immediately to the dealer. Apparently a defect in the brain that controls shifting can cause the torque converter to start locking up prematurely, and it ruins the tranny in no time. I think that's what happened to mine, although the service writer could never tell me what had happened. Something similar happened to a guy in the GP thread.
  • rover3500rover3500 Member Posts: 11
    Hello. Me again. Well, I got me car back from the shop and get this... The replaced the throttle position sensor claiming that this was the utter cause of all of my problems. After realizing that I was a car guy, the service manager changed his tone. He admitted to me that the Taurus transmission has been a problem since 1986 when paired with the 3 liter vulcan engine. He claimed that my VERY rough downshift apon rolling to a stop was perfectly normal and was not going to damage my tranny any further. Being in the engineering field and an auto design student I barked back by saying "So, its an engineering flaw?" He immediately replied that no it wasn't, it was normal. Does anyone here agree with me when I say that a VERY rough disengagement of the lockup is NOT normal? I must be mad to think this according to Ford. Need to wait one more month to get my Pontiac. 21st B-day and all that. Actually cheaper to get everything in my name then in my parents!!! Well, best of luck to all.

    Aaron
  • rover3500rover3500 Member Posts: 11
    Hello Again... Almost forgot. They gave me a Ford F150 as a loaner till my car was done, and guess what happened. I was pulling it out of the drive to take it for gas and the dang thing pooped out in my driveway. It came out of gear and would not go back in. The truck was in drive, but was not going anywhere!!! And... when you would put it in park, it just kept rolling. I think that the transfer case between the front and rear wheels was shot. Built Ford Tough My BUM!!!!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Now you know why it's the dealer's loaner! Can you imagine the fate of a vehicle given temporarily to irate customers?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Your "they all do that" experience reminds me of what I went through with a Mercury dealer. The driver's bucket in a '95 Mystique I was leasing loosened, and would move forward slightly when I stopped the car. Not a big deal at that point but it would be if and when it got worse. It was my last service before I returned it and I didn't want the next owner going through the windshield.

    After checking it the service writer told me "they all do that". I was calmly (I thought) pointing out that a) I doubted that and b) it had just started doing it after almost three years and c) offering to seat test the other Mystiques on the lot when a tech casually walked over and stood next to the writer, both of them looking like they were ready to call security.

    Maybe that's what you should do. It didn't get me anywhere of course but I felt better.
  • rover3500rover3500 Member Posts: 11
    LOL I think I may try that, just may work. Already laid into them once already, got a free oil change. Now, the car is making a sort of pop sound when I turn left or right. Not sure what it is as the tie rods are only about 2,000 miles old. Too fustrated to care at this point, really. The car just needs to last me until June, thats when I am going to get my Pontiac. Heard nothing but good things about that car and the 3800 V6 engine. Drives better too!!

    Happy Motoring,
    Aaron
  • mopar67mopar67 Member Posts: 728
    Get it at local dealer today! Slam shift, harsh shift, and a god awful pain to change the fluid and filter.
    Bring back the 727!
  • taylor47taylor47 Member Posts: 23
    One of the poorest GM offerings was the early R700 4 speed automatics. After working on 350 and 400 T H's this new box was a piece of -hi- until they made about 500 updates to it. I used to feel sorry for vehicle owners that bought vehicles as they were like guinea-pigs. Some vehicles spent as much time in the shop as on the road. Sort of like the 350 Diesel!
  • netranger4netranger4 Member Posts: 149
    My Aunt Tillie had a 1951 Chevrolet Fleetline with Powerglide. It was her first automatic and her last. It slipped and dripped and couldn't keep up with traffic from a stoplight. She only kept the car two years with two transmission failures. Her next car was a Hudson with manual transmission. Till her dying day she HATED automatic transmissions.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Aaron,

    You have a P6 or SD1???

    Neat!

    Bill with the PA Vauxhall in FL
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yep..."Slip and slide with Powerglide"

    Actully, those weren't that bad. They were really pretty rugged.

    It wasn't until 1953 that they would start in low and shift to second if they were in "drive".

    As a result they were pretty sluggish fron a start. Uh...make that VERY sluggish unless you manually shifted them.

    The bonus was the powerglide models came with the 235 engine instead of the 216. The 235's had full pressure lubrication and were bullitproof.
  • chevthunderchevthunder Member Posts: 6
    Has anyone mentioned the GM TH700R4?? That was a piece of junk......everyone I ever knew that had one had to have it rebuilt at one time or another....mostly in fullsized trucks!!
  • rover3500rover3500 Member Posts: 11
    Well, I don't have either. My great uncle has a wonderfull 1970 P6 in burnt gray with a toledo red interior. I love Rovers. Going to get his when he is done with it.
  • anselmo1anselmo1 Member Posts: 163
    Has to be the most troublesome transmission ever in any HONDA vehicle. The failure rate is quite alarming for what is suppose to be a very reliable car.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Here we go again....

    Let's get this right, O.K.?

    A few late 99 early 2000 V-6 Accords and Odysseys were affected. A vendor changed some part without telling Honda about it. This would cause a "clunk" while backing up. Honda was blindsided by this. Personally I never heard the "clunk" in any of the hundreds I've driven.

    The problem did exist, however, on some of the production. These were fixed under warranty.

    Hardly "quite alarming".

    And..Anselmo...this is a "classics" forum.

    You have posted the same message elsewhere.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Hey gang, sorry to be posting this in the classics area, but you guys have always been good with advice in the past...

    Anyway, I have a friend with a 1998 Tracker, and the shop just told him he needs a new transmission. They said they could put in a used one for $1700, which sounds awfully steep to me. In contrast, the place I bought my Gran Fury from said that if its tranny ever went out, they'd throw in another used one for $300.00!

    Here's a little history on his Tracker...around 28,000 miles, it started acting up. I forget what, exactly, but the dealership fixed it under warranty. Then, around the 50K mark or so, it had to go back, again fixed under warranty. This time they did what they called an "overhaul" which would have run about $750 if it had been out-of-pocket.

    Now, it's got around 77K or so miles on it. It was All-Tune and Lube, who told him he needs a new tranny. I'm going to have my mechanic give it a second opinion though. Are these things that unreliable though, that they have to go in for repairs every 25K miles or so?

    As for symptoms, he said that it's holding the gears too long before it shifts, and really over-revving before it changes gears. My '82 Cutlass Supreme did the same thing, and needed to be rebuilt. Actually, I forget what was wrong with it, but they said it was $150 to fix it, but it might have the same problem again in a year, or $675 to rebuild. I thought I'd keep that car forever (kept it just over a year, it turned out), so I splurged for the rebuild.

    His warranty was up at 60K miles, and I'm also wondering if they just tried to nurse the tranny along so that it would get him through the warranty period. Since he's had problems since it was under warranty, and it was never really fixed (getting it to last another 25K miles before breaking again doesn't constitute "fixing" to me!), would he have any recourse with Chevrolet?

    Last time I had to have a tranny rebuilt, it was a '79 Newport, and it was only $650! While that's nothing to reference against, how much more complicated could a Tracker tranny be? It's still a 3-speed automatic, and still RWD.

    Thanks for any info
    -Andre

    PS: Can this qualify for one of the worst automatics ever built? ;-) Maybe we could shoehorn in a Chrysler 4-speed automatic from an '89 Dynasty for improved reliability ;-)
  • jmmctighejmmctighe Member Posts: 9
    Worst has to be the TH200, what a piece of crap. Its a shame that GM stuck 'em on the 305/350's, only to get trashed once you wanted to do some real driving. I had a 79 Cutlass w 305/th200. Engine went 175k still going strong when i sold it for a heartbreaking $250. The TH200? It was on the 2nd one and in need of a third! Lat time I let anyone talk me out of a TH350....
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    I have a 1978 Grand Marquis that is in need of a new transmission. The last "rebuild" on the FMX lasted until just after the warranty expired, and then it began loosing gears. I think the rebuild guy locked second out, but can't prove it, and don't want to fight. Anyway, I'm gonna put a 460 in it for power, and an FMX and a C-6 will both fit. I'm leaning toward using the C-6 because I don't want a repeat of my experience with the FMX. (For the record, it did last about 20 years and 112,000 miles before it went. The rebuild was crappy, and it only lasted about 12,000 miles after that.) Which transmission is the most durable? And did Ford ever make a decent overdrive transmission that would fit behind a 460 (Especially one I plan to pump up to about 300 horsepower)?
This discussion has been closed.