2008/09 Subaru Impreza STI

byronwalter

...is that we may not get those optional JDM Recaro seats. I sure hope that's not the case.

You can count on not getting a Recaro option. With Subaru it's never completely sunny outside. Hated the seats on the previous STI.

tiff_c

You can count on not getting a Recaro option. With Subaru it's never completely sunny outside. Hated the seats on the previous STI.

I hope you're wrong, but lately Subaru has made some bad decisions about their cars. :sick:

moparbad

Haaa,it's still an automatic. There is no direct connection between the driver and the gears in it. No matter how good the manumatics appear, they are still not a manual. I have no issue offering an AT, heck I RACED an automatic transmission car, but not offering an MT isn't a good move.

-mike

I agree.

No manual and credibility is lost.
No automatic and market is lost.

paisan

I see no problem offering only an MT in the top-level performance version, but offering an AT shouldn't be that hard so might as well make it an option (albeit a rare option) but on a true performance car, you need to have a stick, as much as I'm an AT person, having raced one, having an MT is the true essence of a sports car.

-mike

saintviper

The manual versions of just about every performance car in this country are outsold by the automatic versions. It may not be cool, but it sells cars. For every auto tranny snob that won't buy a car cause it's offered with an automatic (even if there's a manual offered) there are 10 people who will buy the car that wouldn't have had there not been an automatic offered.

Mitsubishi actually got it right I think. You can have the stripped down model with fewer luxury features but the same performance as the other car with a manual. If you want the luxury model, then you have to put up with higher end transmission.

merrycynic

Once upon a time a manual transmission offered better performance and a certain pleasing connection for the driver to the vehicle. Once a upon a time an automatic transmission offered ease and luxury at the expense of performance. Both offered (though different) arguments for better safety.
Times have changed. We may have come to a crossroad where a compromise of both schools of thought may(?) offer a bit of each ones advantages simultaneously.
Automatic transmission technologies either currently or in the very near future will offer better performance. Now it appears to me that the crux of what may be the more appropriate transmission for some may be whether they seek ultimate performance with a modern automatic transmission in a "performance car" or the connection between driver and machine with a manual transmission in a "sports car".
Time will tell, but for better or worse with all the growing number of distractions, technological or otherwise, (I'm still amazed at how many people drink scalding coffee while they drive, but thats just me) I suspect that paddles will eventually replace clutch pedals.

xyzzer

Just wondering... I have an '08 WRX with manual gearbox. It should be possible to swap the transmission with an automatic or not? What might be the cost of that? Are there some differences in the chassis that would prevent that?

I don't think I would ever do that, but since my wife refuses to drive the new car because of the transmission - maybe one day it will break and I will need to replace it anyway.

merrycynic

While it may be possible, its probably not practical. You may have inadvertently posted another point favoring new clutch less, paddle shifters.

paisan

I have no problem with Autos at all, however the manual trans cars will always provide a better more connected driver's car than an auto. To this end, I believe they should have both AT and MT offered on sports cars. This will allow them to sell more, yet at the same time give true enthusiasts a real sports car.

As I've posted, I built an AT race car, and competed very well with it, not because I wanted to, but because it was all I could afford and I made it work for what I needed it for. A good driver will be able to make an AT/Clutchless/whatnot drive well, but given 2 vehicles one MT, one AT on the track, the MT will outperform the AT. I'm not talking drag strip here, when I refer to track I mean road courses.

I was just up at Watkins Glen this past weekend and the experience with my MT LGT Wagon was amazing. I've driven the track hundreds of times in MTs, ATs, AWD, RWD, FWD, and it was great to have my MT car out on track and the LGT had some good power behind it. I only wish I had better pads and R compounds on it to really carve the turns, could I have done it in a manumatic? absolutely. Would it have been as satisfying or given me the same feel? Nope.

As for the question of putting an AT in an MT car, the answer is pretty much "NO". You need to change a cross member, get a different wiring harness installed, a TCU, ECU, along with a different drive shaft, trans, flywheel, starter, torque converter, front axles, rear diffy, and all the labor associated with it.

-mike

merrycynic

Its interesting that Formula 1 cars use semi-automatics. While technological choices in racing are often made due to rules that may be for reasons other than technology itself, Formula 1 is still the most advanced form of racing. What may be most exciting is the talk of Formula 1 cars going to CVTs. Subaru already has some experience here, and may have a jump on the competition should high performance CVTs start to work their way down to consumer performance cars. Again, if not now, then in the very near future, I suspect that transmissions that incorporate some form of automation will eventually be the choice for ultimate performance. Some may still prefer to "row their own", just for the joy of it.

paisan

IIRC F1 cars use single piston brake calipers, and mono-lug-nuts as well....

-mike

tiff_c

Its interesting that Formula 1 cars use semi-automatics. While technological choices in racing are often made due to rules that may be for reasons other than technology itself, Formula 1 is still the most advanced form of racing.

Keep in mind that the transmissions used in F1 cars cost considerably more than the price of a new car and have a whole performance team dedicated to adjusting and tuning them for response on the track.
You can't equate an F1 cars transmission to that of a street car unless you also have your car pumping out over 1,000HP with a small engine that revs to over 12,000 rpms.
I used to fly a Cessna, so while there are similar characteristics I would not be able to put systems from an F-16 Fighter in it.
Automatics sell to the masses and personally I won't own one, but I can see all the people that do wanting their cake and being able to eat it to. I've driven CVT's and a whole bunch of automatics and there is no way I will give up my manual transmissions. Damn rental cars are all autos and are just so tedious to drive.
No excuse for people not being able to drive a manual. I think it should be mandatory to require new drivers to have at least 1 year driving a manual transmission, before they can get an automatic.

paisan

I have found ATs to be great in towing and offroad situations and heck in any non performance car they are great too. One less thing to distract people. But we have 2 extremes here, folks complaining that there is no LSD in the new WRX, and at the same time people saying that ATs are acceptable as a "std" in sports cars.



-mike

tiff_c

I have found ATs to be great in towing and offroad situations and heck in any non performance car they are great too. One less thing to distract people. But we have 2 extremes here, folks complaining that there is no LSD in the new WRX, and at the same time people saying that ATs are acceptable as a "std" in sports cars.

Well my Rex has a LSD and no automatic, either way what it comes down to is you take your money and you buy what you like. Sure I'm unhappy about the new WRX but that just means I either figure out a way to buy the STi or I buy something else. I really need AWD in the winter but if not then maybe a Mazdaspeed 3 which is a lot different but sometimes you have limited choices. I don't care if they offer AT's in cars unless it affects the performance. I have an old "beat to death" Chevy truck I use as a winter beater and it's good for hauling stuff and scratches just improve it's looks. but it needs a lot of work, and I doubt it will pass inspection. Anyway it's a stick, but I can work it harder than if it was an auto. But even if I had a huge hauling rig like a monster Chevy 2500/3500 series crew cab I'd still prefer a clutch over a slushbox anyday.
Thing is car makers want to sell cars but they have to balance it with performance cars and what they sell a lot of. They usually water down automatic versions to make the slushbox last longer.
My attitude is buy what you like with your money but for my money it's a stick or another car maker will get my money.

saintviper

WRC allows you to use whatever type of transmission you wish. Every factory car uses an automated manual transmission. (Even Subaru)

tiff_c

WRC allows you to use whatever type of transmission you wish. Every factory car uses an automated manual transmission. (Even Subaru)

Yes and most racers prefer using them when racing, and in many road race cars they also use straight cut gears. But these are not the same as the pro units which cost a huge amount of money. You can't compare a stock manumatic or twin clutch or a DSG or whatever to a professional race unit. Try putting 800+HP through your EVO X automatic shifter and see how fast it grenades. The race units wouldn't be very much fun to use on the street.
Remember the old Goldline clutches about 30 years ago? You needed 2 feet to press them in. Great for drag racing but utter misery on the street. My left leg had muscles like Popeye! :surprise:
Fantasy sells a lot of cars. 4x4's, Sports cars etc... Real race cars are great fun to drive on the track but that's about it. 4x4's are rarely taken onto even unpaved roads never mind actual trails or worse.
Let the posers buy the automatics and enjoy their ride.
Just don't try and sell me on the idea that it's a pro race unit unless you show me proof you did an install of a $20,000+ tranny in your car. Otherwise it's just an automatic with a fancy name, in other words Marketing BS.
Just my opinion.

paisan

Race units cost anywhere from 70k - 100k and more if you are talking F1. That doesn't include the install either.

-mike

saintviper

I still don't understand how you can equate a DSG to an automatic transmission. There's no torque converter robbing you of power and slipping all the time. The actual drive line is basically the same as a manual transmission car.

The main difference is that the clutch and shifter are actuated mechanically by the car based on inputs by the driver. Yes the feel and skill required to move the shifter, work the clutch, and match revs are gone, but it's replaced by a system that can complete the shift in a fraction of the time that even the best driver can, and do it consistently every time.

Saying these systems aren't exactly the same as what's in a WRC or F1 car misses the point. In principle, they are the same, they are just designed for the car that they are installed in. The transmissions in Ferrari road cars are essentially the same as what's in the F1 car, it's just been designed for the cost, performance parameters, and durability that's required for car it's installed in.

tiff_c

Race units cost anywhere from 70k - 100k and more if you are talking F1. That doesn't include the install either.

I had no idea of the actual price of the tranny in a WRC but I know for a fact they are damn expensive. F1 well my knowledge of that is limited but I know the money thrown at F1 drivers is staggering, the cars are the stars and those cars get the best that can be designed.
WRC are a lot different.
But my point is that no matter who makes the automatic unless it's a full blown race unit it's not the same thing, similar in some ways but mostly it's marketing hype. They convince people their automatics are like the ones on the race cars. The thing is true race cars as you well know are not meant for the street.
It's nice to be able to do a track day, autocross or HPDE but you are using a street car not a race car.
I'd just like these guys to see the truth. By all means if they want to buy an automatic EVO it's their money, but hopefully they won't believe it's really like a WRC manumatic.

merrycynic

The automatics in racing are just as different as the manuals in racing are to most street cars. I think the point is; the sheer performance advantage that once belonged to manuals whether on the track or on the street is being usurped by newer automatics.

paisan

I've driven these new manumatics on the track, they are significantly better than an ordinary automatic, but they are not a replacement for a manual. Yes they are consistent but as a driver you don't get the same feel the same connection you do when you have a manual. Unless you've really driven a car, hard on track in situations, you won't understand what you are missing. There is no right or wrong answer on this, it's just different but the fact that they aren't even offering a manual in a lot of cars will give the STi a distinct advantage for those who are true enthusiasts.

-mike

sellaturcica

Because YOU don't like the automated manuals, it somehow negates the fact that racers are using them over so called better connected traditional manuals. The VW DSGs shift better than you possibly could... but if rowing the gears float your boat, he that's great. Just don't try to say there's an advantage of a manual over a DSG.

paisan

Show me 1 single race car using any of the "auto-manual" transmissions found in production cars. Guess what? None.

-mike

paisan

On a side note, I am actually a road race car driver and a certified track instructor.

-mike

saintviper

You argument that it has to be the actual model from a racecar to be any good makes no sense. It's the technology that we're talking about. Not the model number of the transmission.

VW's DSG isn't used in a racecar, but the technology that is uses came from there even if the actual cogs didn't. I don't see what it being used in a racecar has to do with it being any good or not.

cptplt

with DSGs I believe you cannot skip a gear, it has to be sequential, is that correct?

paisan

What I'm saying is that the reason that race car clutch-less transmissions are good is due to their cost being so high, they are built with a different level of precision than a mass produced item could possibly be built to. Along those same lines, they are also rebuilt after each race as well. So we are talking about maybe a $40-50k transmission which gets rebuilt after each race, to compare that to any production unit would be ridiculous.

I'm also not saying they aren't better than a traditional AT trans, but they are not and will not give the same feel and control as a traditional manual transmission.

-mike

sellaturcica

What exact feel and control are you talking about? Is there something special about the motion of moving a shift lever in a gate? VW's non race DSG already shifts faster than you can... and if you program these automated manuals right, they will hold the gear at redline and basically let you do anything but hurt the car or stall.

merrycynic

Perhaps we should remember that the manual transmissions of race cars were different and more expensive than the manual transmissions of road cars too.

paisan

The feel of shifting is something you can't qualify in terms of speed of shifting, etc. On the track, in a race or high level HPDE situation driving on the edge or heading down a hill or up a twisty curve. If you've never driven a manual, you won't understand.

Yeah for the soccer moms out there or the rich folks who want to feel like they are "race car drivers" it's a cool gimicky thing, but for the true enthusiast who doesn't care what the car looks like but who only cares how it feels, how fun it is to drive, those are the true folks who would know what you get out of a real manual transmission car.

-mike

PS: Yes race cars have hardended gears and stronger clutches, but the difference is far greater in a DSG.

merrycynic

On the one hand I think I agree with you, there is a sense of control, of being more connected to the vehicle, using all your extremities when driving. Up until now (or perhaps until the near future) manuals offered not only better feel, but also better performance.
On the other hand, the new (or soon to be available?) autos may present a new paradigm. If one wants ultimate performance, you'll go with the new autos. If one wants the connection, the involvement, you'll go with a manual. I suspect we'll soon have different types of cars for enthusiasts, sports cars with manuals and performance (race?) cars with autos.
I suspect that, if and when, high performance CVT's become the norm in Formula 1 and other high profile racing, there will be a trickle down to super exotic road cars and again down to more affordable performance (sports???) cars too. That may be time when we may see the manuals disappearing in new vehicles. Of course that just may raise the value of "old time, true sports cars". Time will tell.

paisan

The problem I have is the lack of feel transmitted by an electronic gear change. Clutchless I don't have so much of an issue with, but the lack of physical connection between the stick and the transmission. That connection gives you invaluable information when driving hard that cannot be transmitted through electronic form.

Mind you I actually built a road race Impreza L that was an Automatic Trans. It was all I had at the time, and I did well with it, but that lack of feel definitely hurt me on track.

I almost just bought a Lexus GS400 Race Car with an AT cause I thought it was pretty nifty when it originally was Road Raced in the Speed World Challenge back in the day.

-mike

rsholland

It's a very positive write-up, as the headline "It Will Make You a Believer" indicates.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=123381?tid=edm- - unds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

Bob

merrycynic

First it was STi, then it was STI now the emblem on the vehicle in the photos suggests Subaru might be reverting to the original STi. I'm confused. Perhaps different emblems for different markets? 2.0 litre STI. 2.5 litre STI. Subaru, what it is it?

ateixeira

This one's not for the USA, so the labels really don't matter.

I think the "I" will remain caps here in the US.

paisan

I always write it STi as it has always been. The american's fouled it up cause they are lazy and can't grasp the STi part and just started writing STI cause it's easier for them.

-mike

dintern

The spec for NA is out at LA Auto show: 2.5L, 305 HP / 290 TQ, 35K MSRP. I'd say those numbers don't look very impressive considering the performance vs price ratio.

tiff_c

The spec for NA is out at LA Auto show: 2.5L, 305 HP / 290 TQ, 35K MSRP. I'd say those numbers don't look very impressive considering the performance vs price ratio.

I agree at $35K it's not really justifiable for ME. I'm sure it's a bargain for some buyers. I'm just not one of them.
However I will stick around and see how well it actually performs when the US model gets tested. All I am waiting for is the official price on the EVO X.
After that I will make my decision on what to buy. The BMW 1 series is over $3K base so that's out.
I think a Mazdaspeed 3 with a CAI installed at the dealer is going to be a lot of car for little money. I will miss the AWD which I need on long hauls up to Maine and upper NH for work but I can't justify $35K. The regular WRX or 2.5i does nothing for me, sadly.
My wife thinks I should buy her a Subaru 2.5i base not the premium but those aren't cheap like a Civic or her favs the Fit and the xD. This way on bad snow days I can use that car and the rest of the time use something else.
Problem is it starts out as a nice sunny day and I end up driving home in a snow storm.
C'mon Mitsubishi! :shades:

ateixeira

What would you get instead?

And they haven't even announced prices yet.

dintern

I too am thinking of a MS3. It's 40HP / 10 TQ short of STI but it's 12k less. MS3's price is not beatable.

ateixeira

Speed6 was discounted heavily, so those may even be cheaper if you find any left. Plus they're AWD.

The Speed3 is in demand and selling at MSRP locally (fitzmall.com's value price is exactly MSRP).

paisan

Also if we are talking HP/$ you should look for a new GTO on a lot somewhere (and they are out there) selling for around $21k BRAND NEW and those have 400hp and 400lbs/ft of torque, way way more than the STi.

But Subarus aren't about all out HP/Torque, it's about the overall driving experience.

-mike

dintern

I may also take a look at EVO X based model which is rumored at 30K, I think that's reasonable. But we will see what happens after I test drive all of them.

dintern

GTO, no way. I don't touch GTO, Mustang and that kinda stuff. They don't seem to be able to make turns. I'll stick with the Japan-built.

paisan

Well that's my point exactly. You can't just look at the numbers and say "oh the STi is underpowered"

-mike

dintern

Understood, pal.

pe1

Does anyone know when the 08 STi's are going to hit the dealers. In Canada I have been told not until January.

Thanks

paisan

Not sure but I've spoke to someone tooling around with one in CA right now. He said it's very nice.

-mike

dino001

I think they're making real leap of faith here. Fully loaded STI is coming to almost 40 grand. Base is over 35K. Too much, IMHO. If we get from base 2.5i to fully loaded STI we get over 20 grand price spread on same sheetmetal. :surprise: :sick: Quite gutsy

I think their marketing is clueless again and again. '07 STI Ltd. was sold out within couple of months and after over a year they have NOTHING that would match it in the new model. You would think they'd notice. But not - instead of "real premium" WRX (w/ or w/o Nav) and real premium STI they give us stereo and butt warmer on WRX and wheels in STI without the rest. Oh - I forgot the overpriced $2000 Nav, of course. Real nice.

I'm sure STI will be good, perhaps a few will find it worth the money. I even thought I could take a look. At this price - don't think so. There are better choices if you don't have to have 300 hp (which I don't) ...

dino001

17" BBS wheels were standard on '04-07 STIs. The new standard will be 18" corporate five-spoke aluminum wheels and 18-in BBS wheels are now 2 grand option. So in fact the real price hike is probably even higher said 1700 if take into account price differences. I would guess 3 thousand or more.