2008/09 Subaru Impreza STI

ntk1

I heard the EVO X will also be about 35k at base, rising to upper 30's with options, in my book that is also too much for a tricked up [non-permissible content removed] compact. Have you thought about 335 Xi ? - in the upper 30's as well but would hold a much better re-sale value and probably similar performance

dino001

Nah, I want a hatch/wagon - so 328i/xi will do. With all the options it will come to 40k+ on sticker. A4 Avant is not out either, but unless they get a killer lease program it actually comes more expensive than the 328 overall. Cheaper alernative will be 9-3 Combi, but it's not the same. Will see.

I really mourn that 2005 Legacy GT wgn with manual. It really was all I wanted/needed in couple of years - with some improvements of course.

paisan

Don't forget guys, the BMWs with AWD do not come in an MT.

On the EVO, just heard from the inside track that they will not be coming with the clutchless transmissions initially, only the 5MT. The Clutchless is having issues and won't be here til the 2nd MY of the EVO. So it's 5MT only on the EVOs.

-mike

dino001

:confuse:

BMW website shows 328xi, 335xi, 535xi and X3 all available with manual. They might not be available at local dealer, but they are available for order. For some models it costs the same as steptronic, so in fact they charge extra for it. But it is available.

paisan

Wow, last I checked they weren't available, I guess they were late-model year availability. For the 335xi it shows the 6MT standard and the tiptronic as optional.

-mike

dino001

Germans do that all the time - an early entry is in what they (rightfully) anticipate as bestseller, they add manual. Helps them rise price without appearing of doing so ("starts..." can remain the saying never mind it now it doesn't include 1250 option). .

paisan

I will be looking for a 535xi when they start to come off lease in a few years. 6MT thank you

-mike

nickel

Why is the STi so expensive?

With the dollar so cheap, bringing those cars from Japan transform them in a very expensive proposition, basically given FHI size. It's going to be a very low volume car. Usually car companies subsidize those low volume models, but Subaru can't do it now. That's why they should use Toyota resources.

If the dollar keeps the same price, every imported car is going to be more expensive in short time, because companies are going to grew tired of losing money on them, when they are selling those cars in other markets at their "real" price, like UK, Europe, Australia, even Canada.

And forget about the notion of competition and start thinking on inflation. Remember when a Tracer was worth $6 grand new. The equivalent now, the Focus, start around $14 thousand. Don't minimize the notion of having to pay 30% more for a new car in a few years (2 or 3) if things stay the same. On american build cars, like Tribeca or Outbacks, the change can be slower, but anyway, that's the way we are going.

In conclusion, the idea of paying $39,000 for a STi blew my mind, when nicer cars like the BMW 335 start around that price. The 135i also is going to give a run for the money, especially on non snow states. SOA better start giving freebies to the interested ones.

dino001

are going to grew tired of losing money on them, when they are selling those cars in other markets at their "real" price, like UK, Europe, Australia, even Canada.

It's only partially true. Some of the lower profits are offset by volume, some of the higher Europe price is due to taxation and fact that their VAT is included in the price, not added on top of it.

The imports will go higher if the dollar keeps falling, but the increases will go slower than the rates. This market is simply too competitive to gouge and too important to give up on. There are some ways they will offset sticker shock. Easiest is thinning the content. Americans seems to generally accept cheaper materials as long as the car has all conveniences they want and is size they want. American Camry or Accord have always looked like poor cousins of their overseas counterparts, both in content and interior looks. Even WRX had a few cheapening changes done in '02 to keep price then in low 20s (brakes are the most obvious).

dintern

335i / 135i is one heck of series, best in the category in terms of powertrain and performance. But nowadays German cars' reliability is always a thumb-down. That 335i has cooling issues and embarrassingly shut self down b/c of overheat during a recent test show down w/ G37. OH is among the top issues a turbo engine should address. If it fails, its building quality is really questionable. I consider them lease-only. To buy a car, I still wanna go with Japan-import.

paisan

Interesting about the 335i, a student of mine at the track had that problem as well.

-mike

PS: Look for SPT big brake kits to be on the horizon, similar to the TRD kits available.

mayberryguy

335i / 135i is one heck of series, best in the category in terms of powertrain and performance. But nowadays German cars' reliability is always a thumb-down. That 335i has cooling issues and embarrassingly shut self down b/c of overheat during a recent test show down w/ G37. OH is among the top issues a turbo engine should address. If it fails, its building quality is really questionable. I consider them lease-only. To buy a car, I still wanna go with Japan-import.

The 335i and 135i are not the same series.
335= 3 series
135= 1 series
These are different chassis classes.

Regarding the 335i overheat issue, those were only on the early cars with Autos without Sport Package. Sticks and Autos with Sport package got the oil coolers from the start. BMW admitted they didn't think any 335i's with Auto and without SP would be ran hard enough to need the oil cooler. BMW thought only manuals and sport package cars would be ran that hard. They forget that most Americans need an Auto so that they can apply their make-up, slurp their 44 ounce big gulp and talk on their cell phone whilst cruising at 5mph in rush hour traffic.

I've had my 335i Sport Package, 6mt since February this year and have had 8,000 glorious, trouble free miles. Nissan doesn't make any perfect cars that I know of yet either. The key to a happy existence with German cars is to go light on unnecessary electronics, and always follow the scheduled maintenance to the letter. Why not it's included?

I would have a really hard time paying 40k for a nicely equipped STi. I know it is more refined than the last model which I have driven, but 40k is too close to the 335i. The EVO is no bargain champ either. Not factoring in 335i however, and the STi would be my pick over the EVO. I love our Subaru but there are just too many other really fun cars in the 35k - 45k range for me. Just my opinion for what it is worth though.

paisan

Overall performance of the STi will trump the 335i mostly due to the weight factor, i've been in several 335s on the track and they are very heavy (maybe not by the numbers, but they feel heavy in terms of track use) however for an overall car, for myself, a 335 would suit my needs better I would think.

-mike

ateixeira

I think too many people here are trying to rationalize an STI purchase.

It's an irrational car.

Or at least an emotional car.

Everybody and their mother has a 3 series. They're nice, but they don't evoke the same kind of reponse an STI would. They're just too common.

dintern

"I would have a really hard time paying 40k for a nicely equipped STi. I know it is more refined than the last model which I have driven, but 40k is too close to the 335i. The EVO is no bargain champ either. Not factoring in 335i however, and the STi would be my pick over the EVO. I love our Subaru but there are just too many other really fun cars in the 35k - 45k range for me. Just my opinion for what it is worth though."

Thanks for the intro on 335i. Very informative. My neighbor has a 335i trotting around for quite a while, therefore I was considering an EVO / STI sneak attack. But their latest spec sheets don't look juicy enough (maybe they just make it conform to WRC requirement) yet the prices take a leap, oh well. Have to test drive them and then rethink my strategies.

mayberryguy

think too many people here are trying to rationalize an STI purchase.

It's an irrational car.

Or at least an emotional car.

Definitely agree on being an emotional purchase.

Everybody and their mother has a 3 series. They're nice, but they don't evoke the same kind of response an STI would. They're just too common.

The everybody has a 3 series holds water in a lot of other areas in the country but not here. That is why I went with a 335i. I hardly ever see one around unless I go to Indianapolis or Chicago. You have to remember our fashion accessory in automotive speak around here is big 'ol pick up trucks. You won't spot too many BMW's on a typical day around here and that's the way I like it.

mayberryguy

Thanks for the intro on 335i. Very informative. My neighbor has a 335i trotting around for quite a while, therefore I was considering an EVO / STI sneak attack. But their latest spec sheets don't look juicy enough (maybe they just make it conform to WRC requirement) yet the prices take a leap, oh well. Have to test drive them and then rethink my strategies.

I would think the best bet on an STi purchase would be to go with a "lightly" optioned car and then upgrade with some power goodies once Subaru makes them available. The STi would be a blast in the 350 - 400 hp range.

ateixeira

Gotcha.

Around me (Potomac, MD) even rich high school kids drive them. It's kinda sad.

Here at work (Washington, DC) there is an unwritten rule, young hot shots buy 3 series, young managers buy C classes. Don't know why, but that's what I observe.

So an STI would stand out, a Bimmer would blend right in and noone would even notice.

paisan

Same here juice. I drive all over NJ now all day long.

Today I saw at least 30+ 335i s
At least that many new C classes.
Heck 3-series and C class are for secretaries here now, young mangers have 5-series and E-class at a minimum.

-mike

mugwomp

I was under the impression the regular WRX was more of a competitor to the 335i, not the STI...

Car and Driver did a comparison, but it is from several years back - a regular 2002 WRX seemed to easily beat the last-place 330xi. Maybe a 335i is a lot different - this was years ago though...

2001 BMW 330xi v Subaru WRX v Audi S4

dino001

WRX has never been a competitor of 335/330. That comparison was done with a big wink - more of a promoting then virtues of WRX, as it didn't have anything similar at the price range - unlike today. Very very few people would seriously consider buying 330xi and end up getting WRX and vice versa, which would be an essence of competition.

ateixeira

Funny thing is, I think an ultimate tuner version has an edge at any given price.

For example, a MazdaSpeed3 will have an edge over a GTI, WRX, or C30 because it makes no compromises. Summer tires for instance.

Similarly, an STI is the ultimate Impreza, and doesn't have to make compromises that a volume model would have to make.

For BMW, you'd have to step up to an M3 to reach that no-compromise level.

merrycynic

I chose a Subaru WRX Sportwagon over an Audi Avant 1.8.

dino001

Sure - that would have been a legitimate comparison, but we're talking Audi S4 and BMW 330xi - at the time 15 grand more and much more standard and optional equipment. The only thing in common was AWD and perhaps engine power, if even that.

merrycynic

At the time, though I was sacrificing luxury, style, and "prestige" , I was gaining performance, reliability and value. I remember thinking I was getting S4 performance for less than 1.8 price, a pretty good deal IMHO. I'm not getting that same sense of overwhelming value on the current WRX.

dino001

At the time I was thinking quite similar thing, when I got mine (03 wagon). However, the competition made progress and Subaru is still acting like it were 2002 - or so it seems. The comparable level model stickers at list 27.5K, which in many ways offsets inflation, material cost escalation and added equipment. However, the problem is - the competition managed to get us more for that price- at least more "stuff".

STI suffers from similar problem. The new price for comparable model level is almost 4 grand more (07 has BBS wheels std, whereas it will be 2 grand option in 08) - does indeed have a few more things than '07, but is it really that much more?

ateixeira

It's hard to quantify the value of the new rear suspensions (multi-links replace struts). Same for the window frames. VDC wouldn't be too hard, though on a vehicle like the STI it might be for all the extra tuning. Plus side airbag curtains.

I think those 4 things together easily cost more than the wheels.

dino001

Probably true - however there is some down offset from items carried from previous model, such as powertrain (only minor power tweaks were done, rest is the same), and many others, as those items already paid their engineering cost off. There is also competition.

Again - STI at 36-40 grand is somewhat hard to swallow, but it may probably be OK as low-volume model, as long as the sales expectations match. It's WRX that bothers me much more. At current pricing level it's almost as much as Legacy GT, but it is nowhere near it in terms of value - and with it's non fierce AWD competition (they are trying to capture some of those not committed people, remember), it is about 2 grand too much for what it has. But it's a diferent board.

ateixeira

I guess I don't look at it as 36-40 grand.

I bet a base model sells for $33 grand, once initial demand dies down a bit. That's a decent value for the performance.

dino001

You could see it that way, of course. Same with WRX - it will probably sell around invoice, at least in my part of the country, which makes it better deal. However, I still think they should've added about grand worth of equipment and make the interior more appealing, before I consider buying it. Either way - Legacy GT Ltd is a screaming deal compared to say WRX Prem w/ Nav - at least for now.

ateixeira

I was hoping they'd hold prices flat, due to increased competition, like you mentioned.

I would rather see Subies with lower MSRPs and then transaction prices closer to MSRP. Same difference, I suppose, but residual values would appear to be better.

ilikeponies

So I am buying a 2.5i 5 door, and am really struggling when it comes to negotiations. The first place I went offered me MSRP, and $399 over 60 months (20% - mind you at this time he had not looked at my credit). The second place offered me what they classified as invoice ($17,300), however they said there was D/H charges. Invoice is $16,700 and D/H is $600 or so.

Has anyone got it for lower than invoice without special rebates and stuff? Just good old negotiations.

Also they say they have a $495 paperwork fee - however to me this is the cost of doing business, and a total money grab.

I am looking for $16,700 for the car $600 or so D/H plus tax, title and whatever.

Does that seem a good deal? Can I do better? Is that asking too much?

paisan

I think you posted this in the wrong area. This is about the STi, not the 2.5i...

-mike

rsholland

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=123768?tid=edmun- ds.il.home.photopanel..3.*

dintern

It says oct 93 gas is recommended and 91 is the minimum, wow, that engine needs some improvement.

rsholland

You're talking about an "ultra-performance" engine here. I have no problems with the octane requirements.

Bob

tiff_c

They really don' have 93 Octane up here. Maybe a few places but I've not seen it.
I wonder if the 2.0L engine with the twin scroll turbo needs 93 or 91, I'm thinking 91 .
My buddy thinks this car might be the answer for him. I think it's overpriced and for that money should include the BBS wheels. No firm delivery date to dealerships, wonder how much they will markup the car when it does arrive. They still have 2007 STi's on the lots I've heard. Looks like I'll be buying a Mazdaspeed 3, or a Mini Cooper S. The wife is pretty much demanding I go and try the Mini with her.
The STi vs EVO X will be a great comparison. I hope they are able to do it soon.

ateixeira

I doubt many STI owners would put in anything but the best stuff they can find.

Plus, they just boosted HP a notch.

dintern

I'll look around this area. I'm not sure how easy it is find 93 gas stations. Most them are 91 ones.

ateixeira

Here's it's hard to find 91. I think only Sunoco carries it.

saintviper

Gotta love the midwest. 93 everywhere.

saintviper

These may be premature, but had a couple of questions. It sounds like the STi has an upgraded audio system. Anyone know if it has a hard drive? Audio inputs for an MP3 player? Play MP3 CD's? Bluetooth? I imagine some of these options will come with the nav system but I haven't seen details.

Also, sounds like 18 inch wheels are standard. Anybody know if 17's will fit?

And finally, if you get the upgraded BBS wheels, do you still get the standard wheels? Obviously you only get 1 set of tires, but if after upgrading to the BBS wheels, you still get the originals, they would be useful for winter tires. Would take some of the sting out of the $2000 price tag as well.

paisan

92 is the best you get on the east coast now.

-mike

rsholland

http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature/first_steer/Motive_First_Drive_2008_Subaru_- WRX_STI.shtml

ateixeira

Good review...

merrycynic

93 is pretty standard here in south Jersey and 94 can be found. I was actually using 93 for the longest time for my '02 WRX because 91 wasn't easy to find until about 2 years ago. It's still easier to find 93 than 91 octane here.

paisan

Hmm, now that you mention it, it's the 94 that has disappeared up north, not 93. My mistake. I knew one of them had all but disappeared here in NNJ.

-mike

rsholland

Subaru screwed up big time on new STI by not offering the following options:

• No moonroof.

• No All-Weather-Package (heated seats, heated outside mirrors and windshield deicer)

Rubbing salt into the wound is that Canadian STIs get the AWP standard! As much as I like the STI, it's off my list of vehicles to be considered until SOA makes those features available. For a vehicle that stickers in the upper $30K range I find that those items not being available—even as an option—to be flat out unbelievable!

Bob

tiff_c

Why would you want a Moonroof in a performance car?
makes no sense to me at all.
The all weather package adds weight and I think they were going for performance rather than luxury and those are luxury items not performance items.
The accord offers all that stuff as do many other cars but they don't offer the performance. I bet they'd all do a lot better if they took out the pork of luxury items. I'm not sure what a windshield deicer is. I just hit the wiper spray button and that deices it pretty well. Some cars have special windshields that radar detectors won't work on. That would be a deal killer for me. Here they will ticket you for 3mph over at times so it's vital to be certain of your exact speed and go slower if a cop is around.
Sounds like Subaru did a great job keeping the weight out of the STI.
Subaru will probably offer a Limited package later on for all the guys who want luxury over performance. But be able to brag they have an STI. I only care that a car has performance enhancing stuff and comfortable seats that are supportive for long drives or track days.
Most luxury stuff just slows you down. The Legacy and the Forester are better bets for that sort of thing, not the hardcore STI.

rsholland

Why would you want a Moonroof in a performance car?

Why? Because I have one one my "performance" WRX—and I would also want one in an STI, should I decide to buy one at some point.

Same with the AWP. I've got it on my WRX, and again would want it on a STI

I could care less about the extra weight it adds. There are a lot of of STI fans who have no interest in tracking their cars, and who appreciate those comfort features. I'm one of them—and I also wouldn't be buying one just to "brag" about having an STI.

These items should be part of a trim package available to those who want them. You don't want those features? Buy a cheaper trim package without those items—but don't tell me what I should or should not want. It's that simple.

The STI Limited from last year had those features—and they flew off dealer lots. So there is a market for such a car.

Bob