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SNOW TIRES

igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
edited March 2014 in General
First question: I only have 2 snow tires right
now, mounted on rims I pulled out of the junk yard.
Will that be enough if I put those on the drive
wheels this winter? Most tire places encourage
folks to go with a set of 4, but I assume that is
for their own financial reasons.

Second question: Studded or not? I have used
studded snows in the past and thought they made a
big difference. Now everyone raves about this
studless Blizzak tire from Bridgestone. What's the
consensus?
«13

Comments

  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    Rear wheel drive: 2 is fine.
    Front wheel: need 4
    4-wheel, or other special configurations: 4

    Which configuration do you have?

    Blizzaks are great on dad's '88 Lincoln, they stick to ice just great! I do believe you need 4 of these special tires for any car :(

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    I'll have both:
    Ford Ranger, rear drive
    new Honda Hatch, front drive

    What is the need for 4 on front drive? I figured putting them on the front would be enough since that's both drive and steering.

    I noticed great traction from the studded Coopers that I have on the Ranger, but wished I had them on front too, due to the fact that I noticed some sloppy steering in the snow and slush.
  • someyaksomeyak Member Posts: 19
    I live in D.C. area but drive to up state New York (friend, relatives, kids in college, etc). The 225/50's on the new Maxima doesn't sound like the best tire for bad weather. Any suggestions for a tire to help in the occasional snow storm I will surely face, keeping in mind that most of my winter driving will be done on dry pavement. Also since I will be getting new rims for these tires should I get smaller rims? I understand that the overall tire size must be kept the same for odometer purposes. I was just wondering whether to get small rims and big sidewalls or big rims and small sidewalls for the purpose of increasing traction. Or is the only thing that really matters for better snow/rain traction thinner tread width?
    Thanks
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    You'll need to go with a slightly narrower tire, for a smaller contact patch. The smaller contact patch is preferred when you need to dig through some ice/snow.
    If you only travel upstate occasionally, then you need to make a judgement call here on what you are willing to spend on a Snow Tire, since it can get crazy.
    If you stay in Washington DC MOST of the time, I wouldn't go for a "studded" snow tire, since you may not see much snow at all, and the metal studs give you a noisy ride on dry pavement. The Bridgestone Blizzak is supposed to be a GREAT studless snow tire, but it is also MUCH more expensive than the others. I would just go with an average, mid-priced snow tire. Maybe go with a Firestone Winterfire, or a Goodyear Ultra Grip.
    I've found a great website for info on ALL tires:
    www.tirerack.com.
    Bottom line: don't go crazy spending lots of cash on expensive snow tires, when a mid-priced tire might do you fine (especially in the DC area!).
    However, If you ARE in fact going to upstate NY a lot, then you might want to go with a Blizzak.
    Price difference for MY car: Blizzaks are $62 each, Winterfires are $42 each.
    Anyway, check out The Tire Rack - check out the website, and give them a call. They do wheel/tire packages, they have answers to questions, and the prices are right on.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    The reason for four studdies on FWD is that then tend to power off spin really easily with only front studdies. Sorta like the problem that many americans have with 911 throttle lift oversteer...

    I ran the Goodyear Ultra Grip Studdies last winter on my little white rally car (now sold). Worked absolutely great, but I live at 7,000 feet in Arizona and we get lots of ice because of our 30 to 40 degree daily temperature swings. In mostly snow country, I would not necessarily buy studded tires.
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    If you experience many icy conditions, Blizzaks are great. If you experience lots of deep snow, igloomaster hit it on the head (of course, right?): A narrow tire is best for digging through snow. Buying a cheap steel rim (or getting them from the junkyard) #1 means you don't have to transfer tires from rim to rim, and #2 will prevent your nice alloy wheels from experience the worst weather of the year.

    If price is a great concern, I think that is fine for this purchase. Last time I got snow tires, I told the tire dealer, "Give me your cheapest tire, with the most aggressive tread." He sold me a no-name tire, with a tread I could almost fit my hand in, and he said the tire was very similar to a major brand's tire.

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    what was the name of the no-name snow tire...with the aggressive treads????

    just curious.

    also - was that tire 'studdable' ?
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    Sorry, it has been too long since I had that car. It was at "Safeway Tire"/"Wholesale Tire" in Cleveland that I got them, and they were 15" tires for a 1980 Delta 88. I don't know how large that chain is, but the Cleveland guys are really good at what they do. If you find consummate professionals, you can just take their word, and not worry about the rest. Oh, so hard to find nowadays!

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • anne4anne4 Member Posts: 35
    I've never owned Blizzaks, but I've read that they have a very short tread life. The outermost tread compound is a very soft rubber that enables the tire to grip ice or snow. Problem is that same soft rubber compound also wears off very rapidly. I'm told that after about 3000-5000 miles, Blizzaks grip no better than any other tire. Has anyone used Blizzaks for more than 5K miles and had good results with them?
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    I'm not sure about the tread life, but I will say that there are a few places that I've called - The Tire Rack included - that are really pushing them. They are promoting Blizzaks as if they make the damn things, which leads me to believe that there must be something else in it for them - especially since there are other brands of snow tires out there that are as expensive. Maybe they are aware that they wear out faster, which would translate into having to replace them sooner. I think I am going to go with the traditional, old fashioned studded snow tire this season, NOT the Blizzaks.
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    Well, I've done some more asking and searching, and it appears that the reason for the success of tires like the Blizzak is the super soft tread compound. Softer than ever! Which grips well in ice, but you get 2 - 3 seasons out of them MAX. They wear the hell out, and damn fast. I'm sticking with the traditional studded snow tire. I don't mind the noise, the grip is superior to ANY other tire in ice and snow, and the secure feeling is worth it.
  • howhohowho Member Posts: 77
    does anyone have an opinion on which is the better tire in terms of grip and longevity. the guys here sell both for the same price, but mention that the alpin is a "winter tire all the way down". i understand that the soft compound on the blizzak's is only on the first half of the tread (which may explain the 2 to 3 winter life).

    help. need to buy some next week.
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    Igloomaster, you're right on. Now take it from this angle: You good health may rely on snow tires. How bad is it that they don't last real long?

    Could people please tell me the bad parts of studded tires, as I have never used them. Do they hurt concrete/asphalt driveways? Isn't their use restricted over certain months?

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • vac23vac23 Member Posts: 118
    From my experience I've never seen a studded tire damage asphalt if driven properly-ie not locking up the brakes etc. Some states restrict they're use to the winter months. In NY they must be off the vehicle by March or so.
  • butch11butch11 Member Posts: 153
    They are illegal in some states-I seem to remember they being illegal in CA. They are very noisey and those tungsten inserts must chew up the pavement.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Run em here in Arizona at 7,000 ft elev. about 3 to 5 months out of the year. Will leave grooves in your driveway if you light up the tires and then hit a bare spot.

    To me, my safety is very important when driving in all types of icy conditions. Have never been stopped for illegal studded tires.

    Speeding is illegal in CA isn't it? Better not speed!
  • alandialandi Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone seen a good comprehensive comparison of snow tires? Everyone seems to have a different opinion about them and tire dealers all have an axe to grind.

    I've heard about the wear problems with Blizzaks and if I got 2 winters out them I'd be fine with that but I drive about 8-9 thousand miles a winter in New England and that seems to add up to 3 sets a winter.

    Thanks for any advise.
  • noetzelsnoetzels Member Posts: 1
    I need to get some good winter tires. I am looking at studless tires instead of studded this year, either bridgeport blizzaks or toyo observes. Any comments (studless v. studded)? Also, what are the different speed ratings for (i.e. H, Q, T, S, etc)? Is there a certain speed rating I should get to maintain the handling as is on my car now? How do I find this out?
  • ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    what do you have on your car now? that question being asked, NO snow tire is going to maintain the same handling characteristics of a snow tire. some (arctic alpins) are better than others (blizzaks). however the major consideration for a snow/ice tire is how good is accomplishes it's primary objective, which is getting you through the winter crud.
    where do you live? what are the winters like? is it a lot of snow on a constant basis (blizzaks). is it a lot of dry weather highway driving, with primarily ice/sleet storms (alpins). there's a lot of variables to consider.
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    I HIGHLY recommend a studded snow tire, especially if the Snow and Ice is anything like what New England has to offer. They really don't dig up the pavement if you drive normally. They are legal in most states; in Mass they are legal from 11/1 to 5/1. After May 1, you get a fine if caught.
    My ongoing debate, is whether or not you really need 4 snows in the winter if you have a front wheel drive car. It seems to me that you wouldn't need 4, so long as your snows are mounted on the front. Anyone have anything to add to that?
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Brakes on turn with front studdies only, will swap ends quicker than you can say "ah sh#$"
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    now why is that? what's is the science behind that; my pea brain can't get around it.

    please enlighten me!
  • ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    front end stick, back end don't, whizzzz!! around you go....
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I had Blizzaks on the front only and my Integra kept wanting to go rear first! Use 4 snows! BTW the Blizzak gives excellent traction - I was amazed. They claim it is as good as studs.

    My Blizzaks lasted 5 seasons, and I will replace them this winter. I drive about 12,000 miles a year.

    The November issue of Consumer reports has a test of snow tires. Havn't seen it yet.
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    The problem with Blizzaks is they are soft, and for someone like me, who drives 25 - 30k per year, I'd wear them out too fast.
    I'll stick with Firestone Winterfire, studded, from The Tire Rack.
    ...and....thanks; I'll go for 4 studdies this year!
  • briansbrians Member Posts: 14
    Re: What brand/type of snow tires to use--I've found it depends where you live, what you're using your vehicle for, and what kind of vehicle you have. Here in New England, 95% of the winter is spent on dry, plowed (and salted) roads, with maybe 10 days of heavy snow driving, give or take.
    Blizzaks aren't the tires to have here...they are designed for driving on snow packed roads full time...so unless you want 2 winters or less out of them in NE, a less ice-oriented tire is the way to go. I found Goodyear Ultra Grip (the Eagles, not the ice version) are excellent in the snow and the dry...and you can get an easy 3 seasons out of them. Since I have a sports car, I also didn't want to give up 50% of my handling on dry roads, which you give up with an ice tire. The Goodyear's are very low noise, and offer commendable cornering for a snow tire.

    Snow tires at all four corners are the only way to go for all cars. It's not just about traction, it's about braking, too. Four snows dramatically reduce braking distances on snowy surfaces.

    My $.02 -Brian
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    I am a New Englander as well, but I'm not sure I agree with your depiction of dry, salted, paved roads [with the exception of the last couple of seasons which have yielded little snow fall].
    Yes, eventually, those trucks get to the highway roads and clear them off. But what about all of those streets around town where snow and ice get pressed down onto the pavement and freeze, because the plows don't get there in time. There have been many storms where I have been SO thankful for studded snows - at least just to get me out of the town's poorly paved roads and onto the drier highway.
    I can appreciate your affinity for the Goodyear Ultra Grip! I had them on my Honda once, and thought they were excellent. However, that was years ago, when they were less expensive. I just called Goodyear in Boston, and they want $95 per tire. No way. I can't find Ultra Grips anywhere else besides Goodyear places, and they are too expensive. Firestone Winterfire averages about $60 per tire, as well as Dunlops, Michelens, Coopers, etc. No reason to charge that much for UltraGrips.
  • hiflyerhiflyer Member Posts: 79
    As yet another New Englander and an owner of a '99 Passat, I would be interested more in a "studless" ice tire. It has been my experience that the studded tires tend to be noisy and do not provide the greatest handling on dry roads. I understand the Blizzak MZ-02 provides comparable traction, although they too are not noted for their dry road handling. I heard that the Pirelli Winter Ice Direzionale compromises a little in the traction department to the Blizzak, but provide better performance on dry roads.

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has had any first-hand experience with either of these tires. Is there much of a handling difference in cornering with Blizzaks versus typical all-season tires? How has the Pirellis performed in the ice and snow in terms of turning, braking and acceleration? Any input would be appreciated.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I have owned Blizzaks since winter of 93/94 and they are incredible in snow and ice. I remember when I just got them I was amazed that I could stop hard enough on snow to push myself up into the seatbelt.

    These tires are not unsafe on dry roads, but are not as good as all seasons. (my summer tires were Pirelli P600s - horrible on snow)

    Last year Consumer Reports tested snow tires and rated the Michlin XM+S Alpin #1 because it had very good handling on dry roads, but it was not quite as good on the ice as the Blizzaks and some others. The Pirelli finished mid pack with the worst snow traction and dry handling almost as good as the Michlin.

    Now Michlin has a new tire the Artic Alpin, which Consuer reports just rated (look at the November 99 issue) as handling almost as well as the XM+S Alpin, but with much better ice and snow traction - even better than the Blizzak. I have purchased some of these and will see if this is the case.

    The biggest problem with the Blizzaks is that they wear extremely fast, and only have the sticky rubber on the first 55% of the tread. They lasted 5 winters on one car (10-12k per year) of mine but only two on another (18-20k per year).

    The Tire Rack and Discount Tire Direct both sell these tires at a reasonable price.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    By the way my Blizzaks are the WS-15. The MZ-02 is supposed to handle better, and provide better ice traction, but is not as good in the snow. The rubber is still similiar, and will probably wear fast.

    Discount Tire Direct no longer carries Blizzaks because they said they had too many complaints about rapid wear.
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    Another factor to consider in Snow/Ice driving
    is the weight of your vehicle. Here are my 2 cents:

    My Ford Ranger 2WD Pickup truck handles better in the snow and ice than my Honda Civic.

    The Honda Civic is a hatchback, with front wheel drive. It is an extremely light vehicle. Traction can only be improved 1 way: with snow tires. The weight of the vehicle remains the same - LIGHT. It's easy to spin wheels and slide around.

    The Truck has rear wheel drive. Traction and handling can be improved 2 ways: Studded, narrow [more defined contact patch] snow tires, and Sand bags in the back bed to increase the weight of the vehicle.
  • richard52richard52 Member Posts: 41
    I'm considering the purchase of a y2k Maxima withP225/50VR17 all season tires. How is the performance of these tires int he snow? Are winter tires available in this size and will they improve the traction significantly?
  • hiflyerhiflyer Member Posts: 79
    Thanks for the info. I will certainly check out this month's CR. However, I did initially ask about the Artic Alpin with Tire Rack and read an article of their's regarding a more performance oriented version of the same tire, the new Pilot Alpin. The bottom line was that the Michelins were viewed as being better dry road performers than the Blizzaks or the Direzionale, but with less traction cabiliities in the snow - particularly when compared to the Blizzaks.

    If you'll notice, the treads on the Michelins are not as aggressive as the other two. I even visited the Michelin web site, where it said the tread design served to limit the packing of snow between the grooves. I suppose it could provide more of a traction surface for ice, but for snow it doesn't seem to add up. I don't know what to truly think at this time.

    In any case, could you clarify whether last year's CR article involved the Pirelli Winter Ice Direzionale or the more tradition snow tire, the Winter 160 Direzionale. Much appreciated.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    From what I gather the Artic Alpin may not be as good in really deep snow as some of the other tires (but certainly better than any all season tire) Traction on packed snow is another matter. In this situation the sipes help as much as they do on ice.

    To me the worst part of winter driving is driving on a snow packed highway with patches of ice - that is where the Alpin's should excel.

    When I had my Blizzaks I would look for the deepest fresh snow I could find to see if it was possible to get stuck. I could go through some alleys where the snow was 8-10 inches deep and could still punch through 2-3 foot drifts (remember this is in an Integra). Given that level of performance I would be willing to accept a small reduction in deep snow traction in favor of better ice and packed snow traction.

    Re the article in CR. The Artic Alpin was best in snow traction, and was also best in ice traction. The Pirelli was the Winter ice Assimmetrico, and it was the worst in snow traction, and one of the worst in ice traction. The Pirelli was tied with the Michlin for best dry handling. Glancing at the article will give you a lot more info than I can describe.

    igloomaster:

    placing thinner tires on a civic will also improve traction. Remember it is not absolute weight that matters it is weight per square inch of tire contact patch. This is why ice racers use tires with nails in them - all of the weight is concentrated on the tip of the nails resulting in a tiny contact patch. i.e. more traction without any more weight. A Corvette weighs about a thousand pounds (3,400 vs 2,400) more than a Civic - you tell me which is better in the snow. :^)
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    ...i was simply comparing my truck with my civic...obviously with the truck I can improve the weight directly over the drive axle where that is impossible with the honda. maybe it is possible to use thinner tires and sand bags in the corvette!
    i have used thinner tires on the honda as well, and even with them and front wheel drive, it still does not handle as well as my truck with sandbags and rear wheel drive...especially when cornering.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    Getting to be that time of year. Since I just bought a 2wd pickup I'm sure we will get the heaviest snowfall of all time. Anybody still use chains? Since roads get plowed pretty quickly these would only be for emergency/short term use. What's easy on and off?
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    rs-pretty:
    with my ford ranger,
    i don't even bother with chains. go with studded snow tires, and put some sand bags directly over the drive axle for added weight and grip. make sure your studded snows are narrower than your regular tires. it should do just fine. i feel very confident in the snow with my truck set up like that; i never have a problem (knock wood) and actually prefer rear wheel drive. makes me chuckle at all the marketing fuss regarding 4wd and AWD....for years rear wheel drive was IT in America, and folks did just fine.
    i don't think you'll need chains unless you are in Alaska.
  • hiflyerhiflyer Member Posts: 79
    I only had a chance to briefly look at the month's CR article. Of what I read, the Artic Alpin looks like a winner. I certainly will read it more extensively as soon as I can. Thanks.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    Thanks igloomaster, but I don't particularly like studs. Most of the time in my area we don't get a lot of snow/ice - maybe a good one once or twice per winter. I don't like the way studs drive. Just want the chains for piece of mind more than anything and I know for sure in bad stuff that being "chained up" will get you there.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    I put em on 5 minutes per side, no need to move vehicle.

    They make a couple different designs, more $$, more performance.
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    Dudleyr mentioned the Michellin Alpins rated good because of dry weather handling.

    Dry weather handling? When we want that, we put on our summer tires. When purchasing a snow tire, the object is solely to make the car ride as safely as possible under the most adverse conditions. When the road is dry during the winter, drivers should be very careful in how hard they push their car around the turns, etc. knowing that a snow tire is not made for performance. Knowing this, why would the dry handling of a snow tire be of any concern? This is a concern when buying "all-season" tires, that do just about everything mediocre. The number one rated snow tire should be the tire that performs best in snow and ice. Unless it is dangerous under dry conditions, that aspect of its performance seems meaningless to me personally.

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • eb5eb5 Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone know how fast the Arctic Alpins will wear? I assume their compound is soft like the Blizzak's - will they wear just as fast?
    Which would you use in a hilly, hardpack snow and ice condition with occasional deep stuff, but also knowing that New England has mostly dry road days?
    Two cars to consider - a 4WD Subaru and a FWD Corolla
    THANKS!!!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I stated that the Artic Alpins were rated best at snow and ice traction as well as dry road traction - this is also the judgement of Consumer Reports not me.

    If you had to choose between two tires that were the same in winter conditions and one was much better in dry conditions which would you take? I can't remember the last winter where the surface of the road was always covered by snow and ice - can you?

    I did not claim the Artic Alpins were as good as a summer tire and I wouldn't expect anyone would use them in the summer.

    eb5
    The Artic Alpins have a different rubber than the Blizzaks. The blizzaks are blown rubber like a sponge. The Artic Alpin rubber feels more conventional. My best guess would be that the Artic Alpins would last longer - but it remains a guess.
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    ...also...if you've done any comparative snow-tire shopping, and made some phone calls, you'll find that there is a SERIOUS and DEDICATED effort on the part of MANY tire salesmen to push the Blizzaks, over all other product. Bridgestone must be doing something promotional with the shops I've called, because the sales effort on Blizzaks is unprecedented.
    I have been able to tweak a bit of honesty from a couple of different sales associates, and the consensus is that the Blizzaks wear out fast - faster than all of them.
  • briansbrians Member Posts: 14
    To some of us, the dry road handling of our autos/trucks is very important. Most full-out ice/snow tires (such as the Blizzak) are lousy on dry roads, as far as handling, high-speed stability, and even noise goes.

    I drive a very good handling car, and I'm not willing to throw that away for four months out of the year. Yes, my performance snow tires aren't fabulous in the dry next to summer tires, but they outshine any other snow tire, save maybe the Pirelli 210P, on dry pavement.

    Here in Massachusetts, most of the winter is on salted, dry roads. We don't usually get so much snow so the roads hold snow for more than a couple of days. Highways are probably snow/ice free here 90% of the winter. However, when it does snow, my Goodyear Ultra Eagle Snows are great. They are just less of a compromise in the dry.

    -Brian
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    Dudleyr,

    "Last year Consumer Reports tested snow tires and
    rated the Michlin XM+S Alpin #1 because it had very good handling on dry roads, but it was not quite as good on the ice as the Blizzaks and some others."

    This, your previous post, diametrically opposes post 44.

    Given the choice between 2 tires identical on snow and ice, and one was better on dry roads...well, I'm of the opinion you cannot buy an aggressive snow tire that compares to a dry road tire. The two designs are incompatible. That is my opinion.

    My previously stated opinion seems to be in the minority for sure. I simply do not understand this, and I'll ask Brian since he laid out a detailed opinion: 90% of your winter is dry roads, yet you spring for a set of snow tires, and you get one that is "less of a compromise in the dry." Why spring the money for a compromise at all, when you have them as OEM tires, namely All-Season Radials?

    Guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Please read my whole post and you will see that I was recomending the Artic Alpin and not the Xm+S Alpin (these are two completely different tires). I was not issuing a judgement on the XM+S, just relaying that of Consumer Reports. As I said the Artic Alpin was rated best for snow and ice traction AND for dry traction - you can have it both ways.

    If you would prefer a tire that is the equal of the Artic Alpin in snow and ice, but not as good in dry conditions that is your choice.

    Since you are concerned with ultimate snow and ice traction, I suppose one can assume that you drive a snowmobile in the winter. :^)

    At least the people here are sensible enough to use snow tires in the winter. I keep having SUV's and Trucks almost rear end me because they can't stop with their standard tires. They think 4wd is all you need. To me the most important part of winter driving is stopping not starting up. Do you agree?
  • igloomasterigloomaster Member Posts: 249
    ...i'm gonna have to side with guitarzan on this one; i don't believe you can have it both ways.

    in my humble opinion: if you want dry road performance with the ability to handle the occasional snow flurry, then just stick with an all-season radial. why fork over the extra $?

    snow tires are snow tires, period.

    incidentally, snow tires will do just fine on a cold dry road, so long as you are operating the vehicle 'normally'. if you are doing anything with the vehicle that might get you pulled over by our fine law enforcement officers, then yes, you probably don't want snow tires.
  • guitarzanguitarzan OhioMember Posts: 848
    So sorry Dudleyr. I certainly did not catch it, and I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me!

    Guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • eb5eb5 Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone know anything about the TOYO OBSERVE? Some people here are pushing it over the Arctic Alpin. Does anyone have any experience with this tire? Consumer reports doesn't mention it.
This discussion has been closed.