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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I agree the software patch has been a problem for a lot of drivers but I believe the IMA battery is also a big factor. A significant number of IMA batteries are showing deterioration after 2-4 yrs of driving even before the software upgrade. This to me means that the IMA batteries are either defective, or that Honda failed to test them for adequately over all types of driving situations and conditions, and/or Honda provided inadequate battery power and capacity for the car given the power of the gas engine.

    My Honda technician said that the IMA batteries are happiest in temperate weather and they "fry" in hot weather and don't like cold weather. This mechanic that restores IMA batteries contends that the batteries fail early in hot weather. "NiMH batteries have a life of over 30 years under ideal conditons. The HCH certainly does not provide ideal conditions, so some of the cells fail early. When they do, they tend to affect the other cells and bring down the performance of some or all of the good cells." http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/hch/index.html

    My IMA battery began crapping out last June at 60K before I got the software upgrade and my sense is others have had the same problem. Honda's announced objective for the software upgrade was to prevent early deterioration of the IMA battery. It has not stopped the daily discharges of the IMA battery and made acceleration more unpredictable when the meter is at 3 or 4 bars.

    My sense is Honda is refusing to acknowledge that the HCH is flawed. In my mind, no software update is going to fix the fundamental problems -- weak gas engine, unreliable IMA batteries, inconsistent and sluggish acceleration.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    So, do you think the software upgrade will have a negative effect on a new IMA battery? Do you think a new battery will not fare as well with the software upgrade as it did with the original software? My battery in my 2006 worked fine for almost 90K miles with the original software. So far the new battery is working fine with the upgrade software. I'm not sure what to expect. It's hard to believe that Honda would put out a software patch that would make things worse for the battery. I guess I will find out if I keep the car. It had been a good transportation investment until the battery went bad. The only way I can recover is to drive it for another 90K miles without battery problems since the value of the car has recently dropped significantly. Any predictions?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    That will be an interesting thing to track
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    It is hard to say. My guess is the software upgrade will have a positive impact on lengthening the life of the IMA battery. The deliberate aim of the upgrade is to use more of the gas engine and less battery, and conserve the battery with less autostop and more frequent engine charging.

    The problem with the upgrade in my opinion is it has made acceleration more sluggish and uncertain. For example I get varying amounts of electric assistance when the battery registers 3-4 bars compared to the previous upgrade. So we may get IMA batteries lasting longer but there is no guarantee and the performance is worse and more unsafe with this upgrade.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    The problem with the upgrade in my opinion is it has made acceleration more sluggish and uncertain. For example I get varying amounts of electric assistance when the battery registers 3-4 bars compared to the previous upgrade. So we may get IMA batteries lasting longer but there is no guarantee and the performance is worse and more unsafe with this upgrade.

    I need to pay more particular notice to this phenomenon because I have not been aware of any lack of acceleration. I did notice once that when having four bars it seemed to restrain acceleration somewhat but when I then slammed the accelerator the electric assist kicked in full bore.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    If you search the net for "nimh battery life expectancy" you'l get quite a number of good tech articles, all of which tend to suggest that these batteries do not fare well at high temperatures, (vs NiCad, at least), but have much better power output and "memory" characteristics than NiCad. Life is said to be in the region of 400 charge/discharge cycles. that figure refers to small NiMH batteries, (for laptops, 'phones etc), but is a bigger batter any better ? I doubt it - but I don't know.

    For me, this seems like a fairly classic "early adopter" problem. Bought into new technology that seemed to be wonderful only to find out, down the road/years, that it wasn't that good after all. There are many other such examples - Wankel rotary engines, for one. I guess the answer is : don't be an early adopter.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I understand, but Prius is on its third generation now and to my knowledge none of its cars that use the same type batteries had these type problems to this extent.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    My understanding is the Prius has a much larger battery pack that is limited to a 40% level of discharge, which conserves the life. I'm not sure about insulation from the weather. I heard that the Focus hybrid's battery pack is maintained at 70 degrees to help preserve it.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    I have never heard that theToyota Prius mileage plummeted due to poor battery design.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    "I have never heard that theToyota Prius mileage plummeted due to poor battery design."

    Most Gen I Prius packs have been replaced because they leak acid. It's extremely rare to find one that isn't all corroded. Fortunately, the Gen II slices fit in the Gen I housings.

    Also, when a Prius battery dies, the car STOPS. Not "has less power" - "STOPS". How's that for unsafe?
  • krazykowskrazykows Member Posts: 2
    I got the battery upgrade about 6 or 8 weeks ago. I travel to Washington DC from New Jersey every week and I monitor my mpg each time. I normally get 550 to 600 miles on a tank of gas. After the upgrade, I get about 500 miles before I have to refill. Basically, I think the upgrade now matches the mpg being advertised for new Civic Hybrids, so the upgrade may just have adjusted the performance of the IMA to match what's currently being put into new Hybrid cars. I still love my Hybrid and it still runs like a charm. I haven't noticed any battery deterioration except that as most have posted, the IMA "bars" seem to fluctuate more and the IMA not be kicking in as soon as it had prior to the upgrade. I still don't find this to be a serious change. I plan on keeping my Hybrid for another 3 to 4 years. I still like how it handles and still gives me excellent mpg. My trip this week (long distance highway driving from New Jersey to DC, 160 miles) gave me 54mpg. I am a cautious driver and do not attempt jack rabbit starts or drive it as a get-away car. Any car will have performance problems if you drive it HARD. If I experience something negative on my cars performance, I will post it here, but for now I really don't have too much to complain about.
  • suethebastardssuethebastards Member Posts: 4
    Yeah, but so what? I hope I can say the same thing. But Honda has installed a software update that changes how the car and battery operate and not changed the warranty of 80,000 miles. If the update increases the battery life even 1 mile over the 80,000, I pay for their deceit. Honda needs to pay for their own mistakes and not dump them on the owners with a software update installed in the middle of the game
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I downloaded safety complaints for 2006-7 Civic Hybrids from NHTSA's website. I counted 30 complaints about discharge of the IMA battery out of 64 total complaints for the 06 and 40 out of 77 for the 2007 Civic. So about half of the safety complaints for the 06-07 are about the IMA battery.

    In 15 of the 70 complaints about the IMA, owners said that the software upgrade precipitated the deterioration; the other 55 reported deterioration prior to the software upgrade but a significant number complained that the software upgrade exacerbated the problem and made the car more unsafe.
  • ensanerideensaneride Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2009 HCH with 93,000 miles and the IMA and check engine light came on. Took it to my local Honda dealer in CA and they came back with the P0A7F code and they did the software update. The battery came back with the same error codes. The dealer had to call American Honda for warranty approval on a new battery. The new battery should be coming in three days. I will report back on my MPG change with the new battery. crossing my fingers :blush:
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Also, when a Prius battery dies, the car STOPS. Not "has less power" - "STOPS". How's that for unsafe?i>

    Good point. At least you can still drive the Civic. However, it doesn't seem that Prius batteries go bad near as much as the Civic batteries.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Hi,
    I've had frequent IMA discharges for several months. I replaced my OEM tires and wheels with 16 inch wheels and Michelin low rolling resistance tires. I believe the IMA starting discharging prior to the larger wheels but my dealer has suggested that they could be the culprit. Is this possible? I imagine I have no traction with Honda in getting a new IMA battery until I go back to the skinny wheels. My MPG went down a bit which I fully expected.

    My understanding is that you can get the Prius with larger wheels and it does fine. But the HCH has far less power than the Prius so maybe a slightly larger and thicker wheel would be a problem?
  • randyskierrandyskier Member Posts: 1
    :blush: PLEASE email me. I have a 2008 IMA SAME PROBLEM. They upgraded software and now I am arguing with dealer and customer support. I asked for software to be rolled back and I was told this is not possible. I have a degree in computers and KNOW this is possible. If you would please email me with details, model you have and dealer who re-installed the original software PLEASE email me

    randyskier@mchsi.com thanks very much
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The larger wheels connection seems like areal stretch to me. Not saying it's not possible, but on a gut level that makes very little sense
  • passageguypassageguy Member Posts: 5
    Let's try to stay on topic here. IMA battery software update and IMA battery issues, observations and complaints.

    We all know that we bought a car with technology that so far isn't performing as planned (with or without the software update, more so with). Forget about talking about costs because we will all be losing money on owning this car. We have been tricked. The real question is how do we make Honda pay for their mistakes. All we did was chose to buy a care that was a little bit more environmentally friendly (supposedly). They're the ones that are trying to avoid the problem with cover ups.

    I would encourage anyone in the US (I'm in Canada) especially California to make sure they document complaints with BBB and NHTSA. If everyone who bought this car launches a complaint (regarding performance and safety), do they really have a leg to stand on?

    We are going to lose money. How much is the question. To me, selling the car you own is a very stupid mistake unless you have cash to throw around. I bought this car thinking it was going to last me 15 years. Come hell or high water, it will!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I keep cars a long time and with a lot of miles (I've averaged about 175,000 miles per vehicle I've owned, and 225,000+ on the last 4), but long time never goes much past 10-11 years. By then the elements of PA usually start to get to bodywork. 15 years is a looooong time for a car
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I don't think it makes sense, either. But I can bet Honda will not even consider replacing my batteries until I go back to the OEM tires.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I posted info on the NHSTA safety complaints. I counted 77 IMA related complaints for the 06-07 Civics. The good news is nobody has died from these problems. The bad news is no deaths probably means that the NHTSA won't do an investigation until a few people die. The problem is there are relatively few Civic hybrids and I imagine there are other problems that have higher priority for the NHTSA.

    And suppose if there is a safety investigation and Honda admits wrong. What will be the remedy? Will we get new IMA batteries that could have the same problem in a few years? Do we get the previous software upgrade which Honda says helped caused IMA battery deterioration? I want Honda to give me a non hybrid Civic.
  • sqlboysqlboy Member Posts: 1
    This will be one of the monumental rip offs ever if Honda doesn't correct this, and correct it properly. As I wrote over at autoblog, I read that Honda changed the battery they were using starting in 09. My guess is this software with the 09+ battery works fine and gives good gas mileage. However with the smaller / weaker / whatever you want to call it battery in the 06-08 models, it performs like a dog. My guess is the fix for the problem is swapping out the 06-08 batteries with the newer ones and using the new software. Whatever they end up doing, this update cannot be the fix. They charged people an extra $5000 for the hybrid to get better gas mileage, now they've pocketed that money and made the fuel economy worse than that of a base civic. They sold 90,000 of 06-08 civic hybrids, I would think some portion of those customers are environmentally conscious trial lawyers, news reporters, or government officials. At least I sure hope so, Honda MUST make this right or their reputation will go down the drain. Ask Toyota how that's going. Honda, take the hit and make this right, it will cost you less than the reputation hit. This is going to get exponentially worse as more drivers get the update.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I'm going to bounce this idea off of some mechanic friends of mine to see what they think. Weird things DO happen in cars, like the car with the cruise control that wouldn't stay on because a brake light bulb was out. I'll let you know what they think.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I think what's bugging my brain on this one is that if you put larger wheels on with lower profile tires, and the diameter of the wheel tire combo is the same, it should have no effect at all. (Perhaps mileage might be affected because of the different tire tread design, rolling resistance,etc) but the hybrid battery system doesn't "know" anything is different if the tire/wheels are the same diameter. Know what I mean? :confuse:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I talked to my mechanic friends about the IMA discharge- wheel size connection and they just don't see any way that's a factor if the diameter of the tires is the same. HCH tire size is P195/65R15 which have an overall diameter of 25" As long as that diameter is maintained, how you get to that diameter really shouldn't affect the IMA system. I just don't see how it could.

    Well maybe if I use an extreme example I can illustrate as possible effect (but I think this would be negligible)...

    Let's say you were able to put really small wheels, like 6 " wheels, on the car with big "marshmallow" tires. I could see how the IMA system wouldn't be as efficient as the car starts moving under electric power and some of the battery charge would be wasted, but even in a silly example like this, I don't think it would be as much of a problem as people are describing here.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I installed 16" wheels with larger diameter and wider tires. The wheels and tires are the same size as the wheels and tires on the Civic LX. I imagine the overall diameter is slightly longer. In fact, the odometer and speedometer readings are slightly too high because of the larger diameter. Would that be a problem for the IMA system?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    If the diameter is larger, then the odometer and speedometer readings should be lower not higher.
  • rita42rita42 Member Posts: 1
    In rush hour traffic in Atlanta, GA my daughter was traveling back from a 4 hour commute from college. She lost complete power on I-285 at I-85. We got the car home and it sat until the Monday morning appointment. The honda dealership states they contacted Honda Corporate and they will not acknowledge the problem therefore can not offer a fix. The car was at the dealership for 4 days while they researched and contacted Honda corporate. I have contacted Honda Corporate and explained this is life threatening, a case manager will be contacting me within a couple of days. I have also contacted a law firm which is in the investigative stages of this IMA battery issue.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Scary and troubling incident. I'm glad your daughter wasn't hurt. Was the IMA battery discharging frequently before the loss of power? I found a few NHTSA safety complaints about loss of power; I'll look them over to see what the owners reported.

    How can Honda deny that there is a problem? I would be very curious to know what the case manager says and the results of the law firm's investigation.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited October 2010
    Like someone said, the larger diameter wheel/tire combo will make your speedometer and odometer read lower because it takes fewer turns of the wheels to travel the same distance.

    To illustrate how that might affect the battery system, let's use another exaggerated example. Say you could somehow put tires on that were twice the diameter. It would be harder for the electric motors to start the car moving with those larger wheels (take more energy) but again, not to the extent that people seem to be describing.
    If you don't see how larger diameter wheels would take more energy, imagine you have a 12" long stick with a weight hanging off one end. If you hold the other end of the stick with the stick parallel to the ground, it will take a certain force for you to hold that weight up. Now increase the length of the stick and you have to apply more force to hold that same weight up. (weight analogous to the force needed to move the car, length of stick analogous to the tire diameter)
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I do understand that the larger diameter/tire combo would require more energy. My MPG is down 2-3 mpg using the larger tires. My question is whether the larger and thicker wheel/tires could be depleting the IMA battery. It seems unlikely but the HCH has a small gas engine and limited battery capacity.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Mileage hit makes sense, and I think there would be some marginal extra drain on the battery, but I would expect that to be on the order of what's happening to your gas mileage, or perhaps less since the biggest increase in drain would be in the energy it takes to get the car moving, right? (Just trying to hash this out in my brain out loud)
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    If you are using a LRR tire, the mileage hit should be negligible. Given that your car mass is much greater than any minor change you made to your unsprung mass, the dimensions of the tire, wheel are irrelevant compared to the inelastic-type energy losses in the tire. Those are determined by the tire design, and low rolling resistance tires should have the lowest losses.
    .
    I wish these tales were true and I could put 12" wheels with super tires on my car and get 60 mpg - but the truth is, the IMA system (if it work right) is what gives you the good mileage.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The mileage hit is certainly coming from the bigger, wider tires. More rolling resistance is basically just more drag (to use an aeronautical concept). The speedometer and odometer being off will throw off any mileage calculation for sure, but the REAL mileage will be affected by stickier tires
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I need to replace my tires soon. What tire is the best for this car in terms of milage and noise? I hate noisy tires.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Post that tire question over in the HCH Tire/Wheel discussion. I'm sure that other HCH owners will have a recommendation for you
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Thanks. Will do.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I drove mostly highway miles the last few days with the larger wheels/tires and noticed that I had less IMA discharges than when I do my usual driving which is a lot more start and stop.

    So maybe the combo of start stop driving and larger wheels/tires is too much for the IMA? I still think I have IMA batteries that have begun deteriorating but the larger wheels/tire could be too much in start stop driving where you are drawing a lot more on the IMA than on the highway.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    One of my mechanic buddies does think it's possible the larger diameter tires could have an effect since cars nowadays are engineered to work with specific equipment. In the "old days" larger tires might not make much difference to a mechanical system, but with all the computers in cars now, a change like tire diameter might possibly throw things off.
  • prince14prince14 Member Posts: 1
    This site / forum is the Toyota Prius Marketing?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Not really. Just a record of people having problems with the Civic Hybrid and now and then comparing it to the better record of the Prius, especially as it relates to battery performance.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Well said, bossless! :shades:
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Very interesting. Is there any information on the specs (power, capacity) of the 06-08 and the 09 hybrid batteries? I would imagine it is not in Honda's interest to have the information publicly available. I wonder if the 09 batteries do better in the heat which seems to be a problem with the earlier year batteries.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    That is awful! I live in the Atlanta area as well. Do you mind me asking which dealership you took the car to?
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    Actually, the typical life of Li-Ion batteries is about 300 cycles to 50% capacity during normal consumer use. NiMH's are expected to last several thousand cycles without special management. The software designed by the auto manufacturers regarding max/min charge levels as a function of external variables (temperature, age, load, etc..) is supposed to extend their life. A good design (like Toyota's) gets you over 100,000 miles on a battery pack with good performance. Honda's design or software are significantly inferior and result in inadequate performance with much fewer charge cycles. This could be poor software, undersized battery for the loads, poorly designed charging system - but probably a combination of all.
  • markrockmarkrock Member Posts: 6
    I too began experiencing IMA trouble, this summer after 3 years of great performance and average around 51 MPG (mostly rural interstate and hwy, very conservative driver plus tires around 38 to 40 :mad: ). Work east of Dallas, TX, so the same issue apparently with hot weather. When it first became of a problem, I had no power as I pulled out from a country road onto a hwy. I've been told by the local dealer that Honda does not consider there to be any safety issue. Well, I beg to differ. Now I have to always be aware that the car may not be relied on at any given moment. I have not had the IMA warning light go on, but that is small consolation, if any. I talked repeatedly with the dealer and then sent a letter of notification about my experiences to American Honda. That resulted in a too-pleasant conversation by an agent - just seemed a matter of form to me, and no substance.
    The cooler October has reduced the trouble, but it's all still there: lack of power at times, bars rapidly up and down, low number of bars compared to my first 3 years, and the overhang that I'll likely not get a decent resale value. I bought this to be a 10 year, 300,000 mile car. There will not be another Honda hybrid in my life nor any Honda if they don't take care of this.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Sounds like the beginning of a battery problem. Eventually the IMA light will come on. Did you get the software update? It probably won't solve the problem, but could delay the IMA light coming on. In my case it marginally helped, but did not restore the battery.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    edited November 2010
    First, a benchmark of the automobile. 2005 Civic Hybrid, 141k miles. Trip odometer reset, reading 250 miles at 41.6 mpg. A/C running and driven at interstate speeds.
    Been having recent trouble with intermittent IMA, Brake and ABS lights. Either all three are on, or all three off. The car has been experiencing dead batteries , both the IMA and standard 12 v system battery, when parked overnight. The 12v is new, as the previous had a bad cell, also during the IMA intermittent light problems.
    At the time of the trip odometer reset, I had just changed the CVT fluid and engine oil. I had started the car and allowed it to idle for about 15 minutes prior to the fluid changes. Shut off the engine, placed on jack stands and slid under the car. Engine had not warmed enough to actuate the radiator fan thermostat switches. Outside air temp approx 80 degrees. While under the car about an hour later I heard what sounded like a relay cycling about every 20 seconds. I could not tell where under the hood it came from, but seemed loudest near the right front wheel, near what I presume is the assist/generator unit.
    Are there relays or some sort of contactor in this unit? I have read in other forums about an under hood IMA relay to remove to allow some sort of system reset, but no information as to it's exact location.
    Also there seems to ba a bit of uncertainty on all the posts that I have read as to what the IMA light actually indicates as far as a fault. Is there any way to pin down these symtoms without the dealer involved? Autozone sounds like a good bet, but the person I talked with said that the fault has to be 'on' in order for get a fault diagnostic code.

    SO my questions: where is the IMA relay actually located, and is there any combination of low-level fixes other than replacing the battery pack.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I don't know anything about fixing or resetting a relay to solve our IMA battery woes but I would be very interested in hearing from somebody who knows something about this.

    Our discussion of do it yourself solutions speaks to Honda's steadfast unwillingness to fix the IMA battery problems and denial that there is a serious safety problem.
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