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My Honda technician said that the IMA batteries are happiest in temperate weather and they "fry" in hot weather and don't like cold weather. This mechanic that restores IMA batteries contends that the batteries fail early in hot weather. "NiMH batteries have a life of over 30 years under ideal conditons. The HCH certainly does not provide ideal conditions, so some of the cells fail early. When they do, they tend to affect the other cells and bring down the performance of some or all of the good cells." http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/hch/index.html
My IMA battery began crapping out last June at 60K before I got the software upgrade and my sense is others have had the same problem. Honda's announced objective for the software upgrade was to prevent early deterioration of the IMA battery. It has not stopped the daily discharges of the IMA battery and made acceleration more unpredictable when the meter is at 3 or 4 bars.
My sense is Honda is refusing to acknowledge that the HCH is flawed. In my mind, no software update is going to fix the fundamental problems -- weak gas engine, unreliable IMA batteries, inconsistent and sluggish acceleration.
The problem with the upgrade in my opinion is it has made acceleration more sluggish and uncertain. For example I get varying amounts of electric assistance when the battery registers 3-4 bars compared to the previous upgrade. So we may get IMA batteries lasting longer but there is no guarantee and the performance is worse and more unsafe with this upgrade.
I need to pay more particular notice to this phenomenon because I have not been aware of any lack of acceleration. I did notice once that when having four bars it seemed to restrain acceleration somewhat but when I then slammed the accelerator the electric assist kicked in full bore.
For me, this seems like a fairly classic "early adopter" problem. Bought into new technology that seemed to be wonderful only to find out, down the road/years, that it wasn't that good after all. There are many other such examples - Wankel rotary engines, for one. I guess the answer is : don't be an early adopter.
Most Gen I Prius packs have been replaced because they leak acid. It's extremely rare to find one that isn't all corroded. Fortunately, the Gen II slices fit in the Gen I housings.
Also, when a Prius battery dies, the car STOPS. Not "has less power" - "STOPS". How's that for unsafe?
In 15 of the 70 complaints about the IMA, owners said that the software upgrade precipitated the deterioration; the other 55 reported deterioration prior to the software upgrade but a significant number complained that the software upgrade exacerbated the problem and made the car more unsafe.
Good point. At least you can still drive the Civic. However, it doesn't seem that Prius batteries go bad near as much as the Civic batteries.
I've had frequent IMA discharges for several months. I replaced my OEM tires and wheels with 16 inch wheels and Michelin low rolling resistance tires. I believe the IMA starting discharging prior to the larger wheels but my dealer has suggested that they could be the culprit. Is this possible? I imagine I have no traction with Honda in getting a new IMA battery until I go back to the skinny wheels. My MPG went down a bit which I fully expected.
My understanding is that you can get the Prius with larger wheels and it does fine. But the HCH has far less power than the Prius so maybe a slightly larger and thicker wheel would be a problem?
randyskier@mchsi.com thanks very much
We all know that we bought a car with technology that so far isn't performing as planned (with or without the software update, more so with). Forget about talking about costs because we will all be losing money on owning this car. We have been tricked. The real question is how do we make Honda pay for their mistakes. All we did was chose to buy a care that was a little bit more environmentally friendly (supposedly). They're the ones that are trying to avoid the problem with cover ups.
I would encourage anyone in the US (I'm in Canada) especially California to make sure they document complaints with BBB and NHTSA. If everyone who bought this car launches a complaint (regarding performance and safety), do they really have a leg to stand on?
We are going to lose money. How much is the question. To me, selling the car you own is a very stupid mistake unless you have cash to throw around. I bought this car thinking it was going to last me 15 years. Come hell or high water, it will!
And suppose if there is a safety investigation and Honda admits wrong. What will be the remedy? Will we get new IMA batteries that could have the same problem in a few years? Do we get the previous software upgrade which Honda says helped caused IMA battery deterioration? I want Honda to give me a non hybrid Civic.
Well maybe if I use an extreme example I can illustrate as possible effect (but I think this would be negligible)...
Let's say you were able to put really small wheels, like 6 " wheels, on the car with big "marshmallow" tires. I could see how the IMA system wouldn't be as efficient as the car starts moving under electric power and some of the battery charge would be wasted, but even in a silly example like this, I don't think it would be as much of a problem as people are describing here.
How can Honda deny that there is a problem? I would be very curious to know what the case manager says and the results of the law firm's investigation.
To illustrate how that might affect the battery system, let's use another exaggerated example. Say you could somehow put tires on that were twice the diameter. It would be harder for the electric motors to start the car moving with those larger wheels (take more energy) but again, not to the extent that people seem to be describing.
If you don't see how larger diameter wheels would take more energy, imagine you have a 12" long stick with a weight hanging off one end. If you hold the other end of the stick with the stick parallel to the ground, it will take a certain force for you to hold that weight up. Now increase the length of the stick and you have to apply more force to hold that same weight up. (weight analogous to the force needed to move the car, length of stick analogous to the tire diameter)
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I wish these tales were true and I could put 12" wheels with super tires on my car and get 60 mpg - but the truth is, the IMA system (if it work right) is what gives you the good mileage.
So maybe the combo of start stop driving and larger wheels/tires is too much for the IMA? I still think I have IMA batteries that have begun deteriorating but the larger wheels/tire could be too much in start stop driving where you are drawing a lot more on the IMA than on the highway.
The cooler October has reduced the trouble, but it's all still there: lack of power at times, bars rapidly up and down, low number of bars compared to my first 3 years, and the overhang that I'll likely not get a decent resale value. I bought this to be a 10 year, 300,000 mile car. There will not be another Honda hybrid in my life nor any Honda if they don't take care of this.
Been having recent trouble with intermittent IMA, Brake and ABS lights. Either all three are on, or all three off. The car has been experiencing dead batteries , both the IMA and standard 12 v system battery, when parked overnight. The 12v is new, as the previous had a bad cell, also during the IMA intermittent light problems.
At the time of the trip odometer reset, I had just changed the CVT fluid and engine oil. I had started the car and allowed it to idle for about 15 minutes prior to the fluid changes. Shut off the engine, placed on jack stands and slid under the car. Engine had not warmed enough to actuate the radiator fan thermostat switches. Outside air temp approx 80 degrees. While under the car about an hour later I heard what sounded like a relay cycling about every 20 seconds. I could not tell where under the hood it came from, but seemed loudest near the right front wheel, near what I presume is the assist/generator unit.
Are there relays or some sort of contactor in this unit? I have read in other forums about an under hood IMA relay to remove to allow some sort of system reset, but no information as to it's exact location.
Also there seems to ba a bit of uncertainty on all the posts that I have read as to what the IMA light actually indicates as far as a fault. Is there any way to pin down these symtoms without the dealer involved? Autozone sounds like a good bet, but the person I talked with said that the fault has to be 'on' in order for get a fault diagnostic code.
SO my questions: where is the IMA relay actually located, and is there any combination of low-level fixes other than replacing the battery pack.
Our discussion of do it yourself solutions speaks to Honda's steadfast unwillingness to fix the IMA battery problems and denial that there is a serious safety problem.